2017 Steelers: MyFace Champions
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Source: Some Steelers limited partners want a coaching change
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/16/source-some-steelers-limited-partners-want-a-coaching-change/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/16/source-some-steelers-limited-partners-want-a-coaching-change/
EEI was just talking about this item from Roethlisberger's radio show where Ben says they don't have an audible for a QB sneak. He does a nice job throwing the coaches under the bus saying he's asked for that play to be in there as an option but it's been overruled by Tomlin.
Regardless of how smart your QB may or may not be, doesn't it make sense to at least have an audible signal for that play?
Edit - another quote:
Regardless of how smart your QB may or may not be, doesn't it make sense to at least have an audible signal for that play?
Edit - another quote:
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And does it make a lot of sense to let the world know that audibling a QB sneak isn't even an option?
(I suppose the argument might be that teams can't know if this policy will change now that the info has been made public)
Is Florio always that careless with his writing? Two errors*, plus he says "But the last appearance in the NFL title game came seven years ago." Who calls it the NFL title game?
* 1. lobby owner Art Rooney to fire of Tomlin and to hire a new coach.
2. John Stallworh
To me, if you want to write a heavy, or kind of shocking piece like this, you have to make it bullet‒proof.
I hope they keep him. I think he's a lousy coach and have for years.
* 1. lobby owner Art Rooney to fire of Tomlin and to hire a new coach.
2. John Stallworh
To me, if you want to write a heavy, or kind of shocking piece like this, you have to make it bullet‒proof.
I hope they keep him. I think he's a lousy coach and have for years.
Well it was following a sentence containing "Super Bowl". Descriptive without redundancy in the writing. I'll give him a pass:
Yeah, OK on that one. I could swear there was a third actual "English" or spelling error first time through, but can't find a third on rereading.
Oh, here it is, start of third paragraph: "The limited partners, who became involved nearly a decade ago as member of the Rooney family sold their interest in the team..." I think that needs to be members.
It was at least Timothy and Patrick who sold out. So, yeah, plural is warranted.
Actually, and I thought this was strange, but he starts out talking about a sneak, but here he mentions asking for a QB draw and Tomlin says 'maybe when you were younger'--someone with more knowledge can correct me if I'm wrong--but a qb draw requires a lot more quickness than a sneak, right? But he conflates the two.
Well boo hoo.
Ben has his say after the game, not before. Unlike Mitchell and the others who are busy creating bulletin board material for opponents.
And if Tomlin has a problem ... well Mike, you created this environment where everything goes. That’s why you relate well to young players.
Seriously, stuff it. I have never heard Ben be anything but classy and respectful toward opponents — before and after the game. That’s one of the good things about him.
Mitchell sped into the tunnel after the game, perhaps wary of DeCastro.
Ben has his say after the game, not before. Unlike Mitchell and the others who are busy creating bulletin board material for opponents.
And if Tomlin has a problem ... well Mike, you created this environment where everything goes. That’s why you relate well to young players.
Seriously, stuff it. I have never heard Ben be anything but classy and respectful toward opponents — before and after the game. That’s one of the good things about him.
Mitchell sped into the tunnel after the game, perhaps wary of DeCastro.
Ben is mostly classy. He just seems to get confused about what he is talking about... like all the time. Kind of amazing someone who seems relatively dumb by QB standards has had such a great career
I certainly didn’t mean my post in any sort of trolling manner. I am just kind of stating a fact that Ben seems to contradict himself a ton.
Not you; the reference to Bradshaw.
I’ll admit to partiality to Ben, which the two 4th down dimes yesterday did nothing to diminish.
But there is interesting stuff out there, including this:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/16/source-some-steelers-limited-partners-want-a-coaching-change/
First I had heard of difference of opinion among Rooneys on Tomlin.
I already did. It was a joke. Sorry if you think it's going to prevent further analysis. I'll refrain from further levity. I keep forgetting the new rules.
Tomlin isn’t a top-5 coach, but he has gotten good results the past few years with the talent on hand — which, aside from the three stars, isn’t all that great.
I understand why folks are upset about the way the team carried itself prior to and during Sunday’s game. I didn’t hear much about a culture problem before the past week, so I’d be disinclined to fire the head coach over that — but the Steelers do need to watch for the possibility that Tomlin has lost the locker room.
I understand why folks are upset about the way the team carried itself prior to and during Sunday’s game. I didn’t hear much about a culture problem before the past week, so I’d be disinclined to fire the head coach over that — but the Steelers do need to watch for the possibility that Tomlin has lost the locker room.
Honestly, I thought it was a Bradshaw dig from a non-Steeler fan.
I don’t know that there are new rules. Just a discussion kicked off by an Atlanta fan who is a very good poster but a bit butthurt by the game threading. In that discussion, someone mentioned that Steeler fans are reluctant to hit this thread because of the clowning.
It was a Bradshaw JOKE. I'm not the first or last to make one. In fact, it's kind of a national thing. No need to further derail. Proceeeeed.
I think I mentioned this upthread about Tomlin. The players love him and will go through walls for him. However, his tactical maneuvering and late game decision making has always been suspect. Frankly, he's actually gotten better with clock management - at least the days of burning through timeouts in the third quarter are no more. There are two big issues with replacing him now. The first is the risk of rupturing the locker room because of their affinity for him. Now, a good chunk of that affinity comes from his laissez faire attitude towards some of the talking and other shenanigans. They would be better served as an organization to cut that shit fast. And cutting Mitchell would be a good start.
The second major issue is that this team may only have one shot left to win a title. And everyone knows it. So I don't know how you can get any kind of name coach to sign up for that when Ben and Bell may be gone by 2019. I suppose something crazy like a Parcells for one season is possible but highly unlikely. So for better or worse Tomlin is sticking around. I hope Butler is replaced as this is now two consecutive defensive train wrecks in the playoffs (Pats game last year and this game). I don't care if Shazier is not playing - 28 points allowed (being generous here with the short field drive) to hot trash like Bortles is a fireable offense. Haley is another issue but he's also not the one who is constantly failing to convert on third and fourth and short this year.
As for the shit and other stuff that Steelers fans face in this forum, whatever. The Rapistburger shit is tiresome but as long as MFY fans get treated worse it's all good.
The second major issue is that this team may only have one shot left to win a title. And everyone knows it. So I don't know how you can get any kind of name coach to sign up for that when Ben and Bell may be gone by 2019. I suppose something crazy like a Parcells for one season is possible but highly unlikely. So for better or worse Tomlin is sticking around. I hope Butler is replaced as this is now two consecutive defensive train wrecks in the playoffs (Pats game last year and this game). I don't care if Shazier is not playing - 28 points allowed (being generous here with the short field drive) to hot trash like Bortles is a fireable offense. Haley is another issue but he's also not the one who is constantly failing to convert on third and fourth and short this year.
As for the shit and other stuff that Steelers fans face in this forum, whatever. The Rapistburger shit is tiresome but as long as MFY fans get treated worse it's all good.
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Not sure I agree with that. The OL is one of the best in the league. JuJu is a budding star. And there are a number of defensive talents like Heyward, Tuitt, Watt, Shazier and Haden.
Agreed. DeCastro is one of the top lineman in football; Pouncey, when healthy, is a plus lineman; Villanueva is average to above average. Their WR group is excellent (and deep). League-average TEs. That is a pretty talented offense when you add in the three stars.
Defensively, they led the league in sacks, and Hayward is a stud, Tuitt is above-average. The LBs are strong (though Shazier's unfortunate injury creates some risk there). The secondary is not strong overall, but Haden/Mitchell are average and Burns is above-average.
Defensively, they led the league in sacks, and Hayward is a stud, Tuitt is above-average. The LBs are strong (though Shazier's unfortunate injury creates some risk there). The secondary is not strong overall, but Haden/Mitchell are average and Burns is above-average.
You can make the case that the Steelers have more talent than the Patriots. Flip the coaches of New England and Pittsburgh and Steelers probably go 14-2 or 15-1 with that talent and probably easily win the Super Bowl. Tomlin holds that team back significantly.
Tomlin addressed some of the non-coaching aspects of this yesterday:
Also, his comments are kind of a 180 from last year, when he admonished Brown for the Facebook Live thing. Now he embraces it? I dunno.
I think he kind of misses the point. The problem isn't social media. The problem is that players like Antonio Brown go on Facebook Live during sacred locker room time, or Le'Veon Bell talks trash on Twitter the night before the game. Facebook and Twitter aren't the problem here; it is how and when the players used them. I agree with Tomlin that things are a lot different than 10-15 years ago. But you simply have to know better than to do that kind of stuff.
Also, his comments are kind of a 180 from last year, when he admonished Brown for the Facebook Live thing. Now he embraces it? I dunno.
The Steelers are arguably the most talented team in the league and are almost certainly more talented than the Patriots. But it's a team sport, the right players not the best players, etc... Oh, and coaching. That may have some effect.
If the Steelers are the most talented team in the league but often disappoint, we are left with the logical conclusion that either a) we are defining "talent" wrong or b) talent is not that important (and probably both).
I think in general we overrate a) skill position players b) top-end talent c) physical talent. Like, people go ga-ga over Martavis Bryant, but it is not clear based on his statistical record that he is better than Chris Hogan or Danny Amendola. I would imagine Pittsburgh's roster is better 1-15 or 1-20 (well, 2-15 or 2-20), but the Patriots probably have a significant edge 16-50 or 21-50. The Steelers would win easily in a track meet but how quickly do these guys assimilate a playbook? How much hard coaching can they take?
(I'm not a Madden guy so this is going to sound get-off-my-lawny, but I think while those games have taught people a lot about coverage shells and passing concepts, you never quite get to the level of "your middle linebacker read his key wrong because you tried to put a new play in this week and he didn't study it that hard and because of the CBA you only get to run it twice in practice." The hard part of coaching is the teaching, the stuff you never see)
Can Belichick coach the way he does with the players Pittsburgh has, though? There's a reason he drafts guys like Duron Harmon who aren't Combine stars but they can trust to do what they want when they want. Belichick builds the roster the way he does for a reason: because those are the players he thinks he can win with.
This is very well said.
It’s unclear how much of this is on the Steelers’ personnel guys vs. Tomlin (who arguably should’ve done a better job developing the players the personnel guys drafted), but this is what I mean when I say the Steelers aren’t as talented as we commonly suppose. It’s not clear to me that BB, one of the Harbaugh brothers, or [insert name of coach we all agree is better than Tomlin] could step in and instantly generate better results than Tomlin has gotten. And since it doesn’t seem like a coach of that caliber is available right now anyway, I expect Tomlin will be back next season.
If this story has legs, I won't be surprised to start hearing Cowher rumors swirling, particularly with that crazy Gruden money getting tossed around.
To me I despise the Steelers more then any AFC team except the Dolphins.(I'm old school) But if they met in the playoffs I would root for the Fins. I never despised the Colts that much. Peyton is one of the greatest he never bothered me. Fans a little annoying but aren't all fan bases including ours??? Jets I don't despise just feel sorry for.(rooted for Jets in 2010 title game over Steelers) Denver won a lot and they always seem to beat us in playoffs but I don't despise them. So I'm asking is this the team we like to see lose the most?????It has been for me since 08.
So you're saying that, given equal talent to work with, he's one or two games worse than the greatest coach in the history of football?
Definitely fire him.
Those are worrisome comments. He doesn't seem to be grasping that the problem isn't the way the public or opponents view the comments that are coming from players. The problem is that the comments themselves indicate a lack of focus on the task at hand. This team needs to be told to STFU not because of how others might react but because it will help them do their job.
This is kind of where I am as well. If you plunked Tomlin or BB onto equal Jordan all-star rosters and played a game the next week... I think the game is close. Tomlin maybe gets an emotional edge, BB loses his preparation edge, BB loses his roster construction edge, BB retains his time management and strategy edges. But that's not the NFL they coach in.
But in the leadership article posted in other threads BB states he values dependency over stardom. He drafts the players he does (often times) because he values situational awareness over just talent. Physical errors aside he wants the db that attempts to wrap up the wide receiver and prevent the score versus the one attempts to hit him in that situation. (I know, a big assumption but it is what it is.) He constructs his roster such that he can have a stronger 21-50 with those attributes than a star heavy 1-20 with just athletes behind them.
When the Ryans, Harbaughs and Tomlins of the NFL get the stud 1-20 rosters they want, with the health of youth, and a dose of mistake free football (and a sprinkle of good fortune) they can often beat the Patriots and BB. But those are organizational perfect storms compared to the intentional organizational strategy that BB seems to employ. I don't blame Tomlin the coach for the organization philosophy - but in game decisions/tacticsc are also a separator. Is that enough to fire over?
Continuity has been one of the most underappreciated keys to this era. Even though the Pats OC has changed a couple times, the system really hasn't. This is good news for the Pats IMO even though Haley has his flaws.
I don’t think they are parting ways with Tomlin, but that’s interesting.
Interesting because Cowher has been out of coaching for 12 years — the same length of time Joe Gibbs was out when he returned to Washington for Part II. Cowher is 61; Gibbs was 64 when he returned.
Cowher has stayed much closer to the game; Gibbs was running his race car team. On the other hand, as good as Cowher was (and I think he was very good), Gibbs was legitimately great.
But he wasn’t as good the second time around. More than respectable, but he did not sniff a SB during Part II.
The big problem with replacing Tomlin — who is available who is likely materially better? I can’t think of anyone.
The end of half, end of game “strategery” deficiencies — they are the norm, not the exception. It’s astounding coaches don’t do better and that owners do not demand better.
But arguably worse because everything in the NFL is tilted to parity, and overall the difference in talent among teams, especially playoff teams, is paper thin.
Taking it out of Steelers context, somebody explain the phenomenon of Andy Reid to me. I find it strange, fucked up and sad — especially since Reid (a) is such a good coach in so many ways and (b) seems like a good guy.
I find myself in agreement with Tomlin. Pittsburgh wins that game, and it was very winnable, than we are spared the second-guessing based on results. Anyone actually thinking that Brown or Bell were playing with a lack of focus wasn't watching the game.
The only area where that type of stuff matters is whether it motivates an opponent. But if you have to get outside motivation for a playoff game, then there's something wrong with you in the first place.
The Steelers didn't lose because the Jaguars were more motivated. They lost because they gave up 14 points related to turnovers and they made questionable tactical decisions. All the rest is noise for fans and hot-takers to think mattered more than they did.
But that is where it matters most. When the talented player who typically underperforms is sharppened due to anger you've lost an advantage. If that anger drives better practice or more reps or a more attentive film study you've diminished an advantage. The size of the advantage is debatable - but in games with razor thin margins BB likes ti stack all those advantages on his side.
Haley’s firing and Fichtner’s promotion is 100% Ben influenced, which makes me very nervous about what is happening there.
No word yet on Butler or his staff.
Who was that player? Bortles? The Jaguars stellar defense gave up 42 points.
Good post. Its really impossible to tell as an outsider whether Pittsburgh's players might or might not diagnose plays better or do other football IQ-related tasks with better coaching. But we shouldn't just assume that to be the case.
I will say that, rewatching some of the first half again last night, it was very apparent how much Jacksonville's offense just outfoxed Pittsburgh's D, especially the linebackers, in the first half. They made a ton of big chunk plays simply through good play design and poor defensive recognition off play action. They just lined up in heavy formations, ran play action, and leaked the TEs out to different spots and the Pitt LBs seemed to have no clue about who had who in man coverage. They could have had the most physically talented LBs on the planet on the field and they still would have gotten gashed (Bud Dupree is a pretty good example). Pitt seemed to solve the problem eventually, partly by playing more zone, but the damage was done.
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Being better prepared doesn't get devalued simply because the event/scenario studied doesn't occur. If the anger leads to a couple extra hours of film study which leads to recognizing another 2 formations at the goal line - they are better off. The team was better prepared whether or not those 2 hypothetical formations presented during the game.
If that advantage lost due to bulletin board material was 0.001, 0.01, 0.1, or 1 percent you decide, but there is no reason to give it away.
Brady has built a career off of using the perceived slight of his draft status to drive him to uncovering the tiniest of advantages he can find. BB clearly believes that there is value in not providing anything that could be used to build anger within the opponent. I'm not sure why anyone has to prove which player benefitted in a particular game for the point to have validity.
If that advantage lost due to bulletin board material was 0.001, 0.01, 0.1, or 1 percent you decide, but there is no reason to give it away.
Brady has built a career off of using the perceived slight of his draft status to drive him to uncovering the tiniest of advantages he can find. BB clearly believes that there is value in not providing anything that could be used to build anger within the opponent. I'm not sure why anyone has to prove which player benefitted in a particular game for the point to have validity.
Why nervous? I ask mainly because Haley's never blown me away as a great coordinator, so a new one who is (1) better and (2) gets along with the QB seems like a step forward for Pitt.
Was brought up on the Sports Hub today but Mike Vrabel could change the culture in Pittsburgh big time. That's one guy if I were the Rooney's I'd fire Mike Tomlin for.
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