BBtL Discussion: Slated for Off-season

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I was obviously joking but it was warranted. Basically that question was, "When did you officially start becoming Yankee fans? Was it 16 years ago perhaps?"
Actually, you've got it all wrong - I never felt like Pats fans were becoming entitled during their first run of three Super Bowls, or during the ten-year drought between #3 and #4...or at all, really, until I became a bit hypersensitive this year following SB51. I definitely saw them circling the wagons post-Spygate and post-Deflategate, but pretty much all of that seemed justified.
I’ve spent almost no time in Atlanta, so I won’t speculate about the reasons, but it’s clear that folks there aren’t as in to professional sports as those of us in New England are. Not a moral judgment — just an observation.
Coming to university in Boston, I really noticed this difference between Atlanta fans and Boston fans, and I loved Boston fans and quickly took to the Boston-area teams: my Atlanta teams were always #1, but at various points the Red Sox and Celtics became #1a, and I celebrated when the Pats won in 2002 and when the Sox won in 2004 (and mourned when the Sox lost in 2003) almost as if they were my own teams. So that's my background...and I still want to root for the Boston teams as a more distant #2, even if the Pats may now be all but lost to me.
 

RetractableRoof

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My cherry-picking those two Gamethread examples *was* lazy. But the number of SoSHers who have made 28-3 jokes about Atlanta - some of which have been very good and funny, others of which have seemed more meanspirited - is legion, and this response...

...seems pretty reflective of what I've seen here from *some* people over the past year. If that shoe fits, well, I'm interested to hear from you; if it doesn't, then thank you for being supportive.

Let me ask you (and anyone else) this: do you think Patriot fans have generally changed over the past 15-20 years? If so, how?
Then I'd say that as a fan you are being thin skinned if you are counting up the number of people who've made 28-3 references (I can say I haven't, but so what). You know how many times Sox fans heard 1918 chanted at them??? How many times the Buckner chant rang out sporting events other than RedSox games? It is the life of being the fan of whichever team you've hitched your wagon to. If the meanies say such things, it is what it is.

To your last question: I think the biggest change in what you are seeing is the change in social media for our society. If you look at your circle of friends you've likely not seen too much of a change - other than from pessimistic to optimistic - especially given this QB/Coach/Owner triad. Where the difference is, that you are seeing thousands of copies of the various meme's, graphics, snark, etc. bandied about - but that doesn't imply they are all being put out there or repeated by Pats fans. I know people who don't even follow sports who've shared 28-3 meme's, with no more knowledge of the game than which Dorito commercial was on during the SB. And the outliers within the fan base that are particularly mean seem to have a larger voice than 15 years ago. Tweet something at Shefter and it will potentially get seen by thousands at once, maybe more if you tweet it at one of his parody accounts. Social media has distorted the volume of everything these days - positively or negatively. Do you think what the Saints CB is going to endure will be more than Buckner went through? There was no twitter/facebook when Buckner made his physical error. Buckner had it easy compared to what this guy will face.

If anything, I'd say that maybe the Pats dynasty is the first that was "born" during social media and maybe that has impacted the perception. I think it could also be said that it is the greatest modern performance in team sports - specifically during the information age. So there is a saturation there that no other team has had, which perhaps exacerbates the perception of the Patriot fans. Combine those two large things with the handling of the two major "gates" by the league and the absolute need for the team/fans to defend their team and the volume starts to get real loud. (You called us defensive, yet you had to stand right up for Blank and the perception that he was prematurely celebrating - let's set that fact straight!). It's easy to characterize all the combined volume as negative/nastiness by Patriots fans - but is it a reflection of the fans or the times?

As an aside: The last point does account for some of the coldness though. I've had intelligent friends who I could formerly talk about any football subject with just get in my face spewing NFL generated deflategatae vitriol at me to the point where I told them I wasn't willing to discuss football with them any further until they could grasp a 9th grade lesson in air pressure calculations. What other team/fanbase has been attacked the way the Patriots have? So while I won't be the fan who says "F the XYZ team", I understand those who do. And if that gets painted as obnoxious fandom, then blame the NFL for destroying the ability of the fans to be good natured about a topic.
 

reggiecleveland

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1st of all Americans are the Yankee fans of the world.

Canadian hockey fans/media are probably the worst in terms of sports, but assuming I could understand Portuguese, I may discover Brazil soccer fans may be worse.
 

PedroKsBambino

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If memory serves, @ConigliarosPotential lives overseas. He probably has little interaction with Patriots’ fans outside of SoSH, so I read his statements about Pats’ fans as being mostly about us. Perhaps that is self-centered on my part.

If we’re talking about us, I do think the Pats’ fans here are a bit Yankee fan-ish. I mean, half of you have said at some point or other that you’ll be done with the Pats and the NFL when Brady and Belichick are gone — can you imagine a more Yankee-fan sentiment than that? Also, the incredible run of success the Pats have had have caused many of us to elevate the team’s principals to near-infallibility — which is understandable, but I’m sure it doesn’t make for the most stimulating discussion when you aren’t a fan of the team.

That said, I managed to exist here for several years as a Steelers fan (before the cognitive dissonance of rooting for Rapistberger finally did me in), and I didn’t think it was that bad, so perhaps the OP is a tad sensitive as well.
Perhaps if anything more than a handful of fans here had said they were quitting when Belichick and Brady did that would sound "Yankee-ish"...but I would be stunned if there's a single regular reader of this subforum who would agree any number close to that have said anything like that.
 

RetractableRoof

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Perhaps if anything more than a handful of fans here had said they were quitting when Belichick and Brady did that would sound "Yankee-ish"...but I would be stunned if there's a single regular reader of this subforum who would agree any number close to that have said anything like that.
And the few that do say such things are often mocked and ridiculed for voicing such things.

Edit: and those few are often speaking in context of the NFL handling of the various gates, Patriots related matters, and Goodell's player handling surrounding abuse, concussions, etc - not simply the end of the Patriots run.
 

CodPiece XL

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I think game threads take out the worst in people. That's why there is a larger degree of latitude given "heat of the moment" , pent up emotions etc etc by the mods. I'm not sure if Pat's/Football game threads are any worse than Bruins , Red Sox etc. It certainly would not surprise me if they were. Football is different to most sports, it's about a week between games, and very limited in number of games in the season. Plenty of time for emotions to build up and get unleashed during 3.5 hours. There is always a dedicated thread to the build up where posters seem a lot more rational, then all hell breaks loose in the game thread

There are some great responses here that I won't rehash. I do think Pats fans have changed, perhaps more defensive. The Pat's success over the last 17 years is unprecedented, it's simply not meant to happen during the salary cap era. Other teams have ebbed and flowed. How many teams make the playoffs only to disappear into oblivion the following season? Pats fans feel their team is under constant scrutiny ( insert gate du jour here), their methods are questioned, the media is constantly declaring the success is finally over. They are toast etc.

It's a weird situation, you have a generation/generations of Pats fans who remember the hard times, they have a true appreciation of what has transpired. Then you have younger fans that have been spoiled and the season is seen as a failure if the Pats don't win a S.B. I don't know if that makes a difference, does one subset behave differently to other fans than another.

I've long given up trying to figure out why sports can take out the worst in people who are normally very civilized. Of course, there are assholes who are just assholes in every facet of life.
 
Perhaps if anything more than a handful of fans here had said they were quitting when Belichick and Brady did that would sound "Yankee-ish"...but I would be stunned if there's a single regular reader of this subforum who would agree any number close to that have said anything like that.
I have heard this thought voiced most loudly in the threads about concussions and the future of the NFL...and to be fair, if I were teetering on whether or not to watch the NFL at all because of the violence inherent to the sport, as a Pats fan I might share this sentiment and plan to bail out once Brady and Belichick are gone.

Overall, in thinking this through, I feel like the progress for Pats fans I have seen goes something like this:

Pre-2002: Heartbreak, occasional flattering to deceive, two Super Bowl losses and no wins - basically your typical semi-cursed NFL team.
2002-05: Absolute magic - pure sports fan elation.
2006-15: Sustained excellence, but no Super Bowls, two heartbreaking SB losses and some off-field controversy cause fans to circle the wagons and become defensive.
2015: Defiant triumphalism, and relief, after SB49 - The Nation's Tears, etc. - amidst Deflategate defensiveness (and the Aaron Hernandez situation)
To 2017-18: Now Brady and Belichick have definitively proved they are the best ever, the Pats won yet another Super Bowl with the best comeback ever, the Pats are heavily favored to win the Super Bowl again, they've been to 7 straight AFC Championship Games (which for me is the most mind-blowing stat of all), everything the Patriots touch turn to gold, and so on.

Am I wrong to think that now would be the natural time in the sporting cycle for Patriot fans to go full Yankee? Even if the Patriots somehow don't win the Super Bowl this year, they have vanquished all of their foes: the AFC East is impotent; the Steelers are clearly inferior; Peyton retired; Eli is past it; the Broncos are broken. They are as close to a Yankees-like franchise in any sport since the Yankees were the Yankees, and if the Yankees didn't win the World Series every year, they were almost always head and shoulders above the competition in any medium-to-long-term cycle. And if we all know this won't last forever - because Belichick and Brady will retire, and because the NFL salary cap and draft rules are supposed to render the idea of a Yankees-like dynasty impotent - well, all the more reason to gloat while the gloating is good.

Is this maybe what you yourselves see as Pats fans, whether within SoSH or elsewhere in the wider Patriot-supporting world? Is that unfair? Do you even care? Perhaps you might even feel that getting to behave like a Yankees fan is a rare perk to be savored when the opportunity presents itself, rather than a temptation to try to avoid. I'm not judging - just asking.
 

Dogman

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His posts are

You know, the OP and CP are not antagonistic in any way and perhaps he is overreacting to gamethreading but, and I get the schtick here, it's ok to be seen and not heard sometimes.

Joke, funny. Yeah.
 

RetractableRoof

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You know, the OP and CP are not antagonistic in any way and perhaps he is overreacting to gamethreading but, and I get the schtick here, it's ok to be seen and not heard sometimes.

Joke, funny. Yeah.
By his own admission, OP was trying to be provocative. So at that point, isn't it all fair game?
 

RetractableRoof

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I have heard this thought voiced most loudly in the threads about concussions and the future of the NFL...and to be fair, if I were teetering on whether or not to watch the NFL at all because of the violence inherent to the sport, as a Pats fan I might share this sentiment and plan to bail out once Brady and Belichick are gone.

Overall, in thinking this through, I feel like the progress for Pats fans I have seen goes something like this:

Pre-2002: Heartbreak, occasional flattering to deceive, two Super Bowl losses and no wins - basically your typical semi-cursed NFL team.
2002-05: Absolute magic - pure sports fan elation.
2006-15: Sustained excellence, but no Super Bowls, two heartbreaking SB losses and some off-field controversy cause fans to circle the wagons and become defensive.
2015: Defiant triumphalism, and relief, after SB49 - The Nation's Tears, etc. - amidst Deflategate defensiveness (and the Aaron Hernandez situation)
To 2017-18: Now Brady and Belichick have definitively proved they are the best ever, the Pats won yet another Super Bowl with the best comeback ever, the Pats are heavily favored to win the Super Bowl again, they've been to 7 straight AFC Championship Games (which for me is the most mind-blowing stat of all), everything the Patriots touch turn to gold, and so on.

Am I wrong to think that now would be the natural time in the sporting cycle for Patriot fans to go full Yankee? Even if the Patriots somehow don't win the Super Bowl this year, they have vanquished all of their foes: the AFC East is impotent; the Steelers are clearly inferior; Peyton retired; Eli is past it; the Broncos are broken. They are as close to a Yankees-like franchise in any sport since the Yankees were the Yankees, and if the Yankees didn't win the World Series every year, they were almost always head and shoulders above the competition in any medium-to-long-term cycle. And if we all know this won't last forever - because Belichick and Brady will retire, and because the NFL salary cap and draft rules are supposed to render the idea of a Yankees-like dynasty impotent - well, all the more reason to gloat while the gloating is good.

Is this maybe what you yourselves see as Pats fans, whether within SoSH or elsewhere in the wider Patriot-supporting world? Is that unfair? Do you even care? Perhaps you might even feel that getting to behave like a Yankees fan is a rare perk to be savored when the opportunity presents itself, rather than a temptation to try to avoid. I'm not judging - just asking.
You insist on pushing the Yankee fan narrative. Therefore it isn't a broad based discussion, it's your narrative you are trying to hammer home.

Enjoy the rest of your "discussion".
 

johnmd20

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You know, the OP and CP are not antagonistic in any way and perhaps he is overreacting to gamethreading but, and I get the schtick here, it's ok to be seen and not heard sometimes.

Joke, funny. Yeah.
He called Patriots' fans Yankee fans in the title of the post. I'd say he was being antagonistic.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I have heard this thought voiced most loudly in the threads about concussions and the future of the NFL...and to be fair, if I were teetering on whether or not to watch the NFL at all because of the violence inherent to the sport, as a Pats fan I might share this sentiment and plan to bail out once Brady and Belichick are gone.
I agree there are a few people who have said it there, and a few who have said it in game threads too. What I am challenging (and you certainly haven't claimed anything like the following) is the idea that anything remotely close to half the forum has said anything like that, for whichever reason they might have said it. We're better than that kind of fabrication, at least we should be.

I thought the specific posts you alluded to in your initial post were a little much; my own post after the game was much kinder! In terms of the more interesting larger question you've posed, I think taking two (in my view) weak comments in a gamethread and using them as a springboard to 'Pats fans are Yankee fans' probably does not set up your argument for the best discussion.
 

Dogman

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I see a question mark in the title so I read it differently. I'm not sure we need to be getting so uptight about his hatred of us. I mean really, it was 28-3.
 
He called Patriots' fans Yankee fans in the title of the post. I'd say he was being antagonistic.
Yeah, there was some provocation in my OP (and the thread title) - guilty as charged. Although really, everything is going so well for Patriot fans at the moment, surely you should be able to tolerate a degree of antagonism, no? (And slightly more seriously, I didn't mean for the provocation to overshadow the rest of my post, which was a mistake on my part.)
I see a question mark in the title so I read it differently. I'm not sure we need to be getting so uptight about his hatred of us. I mean really, it was 28-3.
I see what you did there.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Out of curiosity, do you perceive that the homer-ism is the same in this forum as in the game threads?

For me, one of the issues with game threads (in addition to emotion) is there's some fans who drop in there who are not following the overall sport as much as many BBTL posters do, and that does tend to lead to more homer-iffic comments. I can't pretend I'm perfectly objective either, so curious for a more outside perspective.
 

snowmanny

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But why did it bother you so much that most of the board was rooting for Philly? Why not take it as a compliment to your team?
 

johnmd20

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I see a question mark in the title so I read it differently. I'm not sure we need to be getting so uptight about his hatred of us. I mean really, it was 28-3.
I'm not even uptight. I think Pats' fans can be spoiled and entitled. But that doesn't matter. This is, more likely than not, a Red Sox Board and a Boston board in general. Expecting a Boston board to act respectfully to other fan bases in a game thread is laughable. Game threads are a mess, that's how they work and it's what makes them fun.
 

johnmd20

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Yeah, there was some provocation in my OP (and the thread title) - guilty as charged. Although really, everything is going so well for Patriot fans at the moment, surely you should be able to tolerate a degree of antagonism, no? (And slightly more seriously, I didn't mean for the provocation to overshadow the rest of my post, which was a mistake on my part.)
There is a dichotomy here. You're pissed because two people mocked Atlanta in a game thread on a Patriots message board. So in response, you mocked Patriot fans. You're not a victim here.

Contrast this to Drleather trying to get people to stop saying Minny. All he succeeded in doing was increasing the production of Minny by about 5000%. He laughed it off. Because we're talking about sports.
 

Dogman

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I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort in gamethreads. I meant this thread. And we are still better than his team. Again.

That's why it is ok to attempt to foster some honest conversation here. That's it. Hell, the mic drop pic after reading his admittance of antagonizing (and my own misread) should be enough now to have a solid conversation about this, no?

OMG A FALCONS FAN IS PISSED AT US!!!!!!!1
 

snowmanny

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Well he's pissed the day after his team lost because most of us weren't rooting for the Falcons.

Edit: so he wants us to get all introspective.

Edit: in the middle of our playoff run. I'll save that for the off-season.
 

bankshot1

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I don't think we become MFY fans until we have a few generations of insufferable SB experiencing MFPatriot fans.

MFY fans not much older than me can string the exploits of Joltin' Joe, Mick, Yogi, Whitey, Reggie, Derek, and Alex and now Judge.

after years of tolerability, the insufferability index is on the rise.

We got TB12, Gronk and BB, and 17 years

That's where the loss of Jimmy G was a killer.
 
Out of curiosity, do you perceive that the homer-ism is the same in this forum as in the game threads?
The game threads are certainly more emotional and visceral, and less intelligent (although I do like reading them after the fact when I miss them live to see what others thought, and actually, when I've been presenting NFL games as a commentator I like following the generic game threads live as a proxy for intelligent fan reaction to what is happening across the league). I think Saturday was the first, and probably last, time I tried posting regularly in a game thread when one of my teams was playing; I thought it would help channel some of my nervous energy, which it did to some extent, and I tried to post without emotion and be pretty logical, which I think I succeeded in for what that's worth.

Does that mean they are more homeriffic? I'm not sure about that - the non-game thread threads can be pretty homery. Usually more grounded in intelligent thought, though.
There is a dichotomy here. You're pissed because two people mocked Atlanta in a game thread on a Patriots message board. So in response, you mocked Patriot fans. You're not a victim here.
Am I saying I'm a victim, or that I'm pissed? I said in my OP that I was a bit depressed at some of the random anti-Atlanta sentiment I encountered both during the game thread and throughout the season - and then tried to point out at some length that what depressed me isn't that meanies were being mean to me and/or my team, but rather that I wish there were less malice and meanness among fans in general, and that perhaps (but not definitely) New England's status as the New Yankees may have something to do with what I've seen from Pats fans over the past year. Did I not state that clearly enough?
Well he's pissed the day after his team lost because most of us weren't rooting for the Falcons.
Erm, I was pissed the day after my team lost because my team lost. That's fair enough, isn't it? And I have no expectation that Pats fans should root for the Falcons - why should they?
 

Average Reds

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Contrast this to Drleather trying to get people to stop saying Minny. All he succeeded in doing was increasing the production of Minny by about 5000%. He laughed it off. Because we're talking about sports.
I thought he laughed it off because he’s a Minnesotan. (Minny-ite? Minnyapolitan?)
 

mikeford

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1st of all Americans are the Yankee fans of the world.

Canadian hockey fans/media are probably the worst in terms of sports, but assuming I could understand Portuguese, I may discover Brazil soccer fans may be worse.
Didnt Columbia have a dude killed for an own goal he put in versus the US?

That might be tops.
 

Ed Hillel

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The Patriots and its fans take a ton of shit in the media and on various forums and websites. I’m not saying it to complain, but it is what it is. There’s an expectation that because the team wins a lot, Pats fans should just take it and shut up, but sometimes it’s fun to participate. Especially when hitting back at an especially vociferous fanbase, such as the Steelers or Seahawks. It’s always good to know one’s surroundings and be respectful to those who have treated one in kind, but sometimes people generalize and frustrations boil over. I wouldn’t take it personally, unless it’s clear you were being targeted individually. Like Sojden. But he deserves it, and we all take great joy in watching it happen.
 

djbayko

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My cherry-picking those two Gamethread examples *was* lazy. But the number of SoSHers who have made 28-3 jokes about Atlanta - some of which have been very good and funny, others of which have seemed more meanspirited - is legion, and this response...
To be fair, I've frequented general NFL forums over the past year and my observation is that the rest of NFL fandom poke fun at the Falcons for 28-3 a hell of a lot more than Pats fans. Heck, forget NFL boards - it was a popular Internet meme for quite some time.

This is a Boston sports forum. If members are directing their flames at you specifically, that's one thing. If the community is having a little fun generally, that's something else entirely.

Just as we've had to live with whayever-Gate for the past decade, this is something you simply have to deal with as an Atlanta fan.
 

ThePrideofShiner

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Patriots fans are certainly entitled like Yankees fans were back in the title years, and this part of SoSH can be insufferable at times (Deflategate), but for the most part I'm not sure what you can expect as a non-Patriots fan.

Sports fans talk shit and in a game thread that will be ramped up 100-fold.

On the flip side, I'd like to thank the Falcons for 28-3. Because that takes a bit of salt out of the interception-that-shouldn't-be-mentioned.
 

dcmissle

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I think the psyches of the old Yankee fans and current Pats fans are different, which is why I am struggling with the comparison.

There are commonalities to be sure. Each fan base has (had) sky high expectations. With that comes a culture of entitlement that becomes more pronounced with each successful year. The flip side of that is a perverse sense of failure every year that does not end in a championship.

There, I think, the teams’ fan bases part ways. The Yankees’, I think, could best be characterized as arrogant triumphalism. Yes, they lorded it over the RS and their fans. But no one else, really, and they never felt threatened. Never. That is because — and I think this is critical — the NYYs were consistently and enthusiastically ballwashed by the national media. It was a fawning society. The only criticism was over the Yankees spending people to death, and that criticism was muted by the shock and awe that accompanied it.

Not so the Pats after the first few years. Spygate changed everything. The Pats became the hunted, and the hunt has never really been called off. Periodically it intensifies. And although the Pats have undoubtedly shot themselves in the foot, the narrative is mostly bs. And, again critically, it is fueled by no-nonsense Belichick refusing to play footsie with the national media and the organization remaining secretive. (If B.B. fellated and fed the Peter Kings of this word as Jeff Fisher did, the narrative would be quite different.) But bottom line, instead of being arrogantly triumphant, Pats fans are bitterly defensive — us against the world, always and forever.

Now that gets really tiresome, and it sucks because it sucks so much enjoyment out of everything. That’s how you get predictions that Gronkowski is going to be suspended for 4 fucking games. That TB will get suspended again — or the Pats punished — because of Giselle’s concussion remarks. That the refs are always out to fuck us — always; the game threads are a toxic waste dump in this regard. That every rule change is animated by knocking the Pats down a peg or two. We expect the worst, and compliments thrown to other teams are regarded suspiciously as an effort to diminish the Pats.

Is this sensible? No. Is it understandable? You betcha. Spygate was foolishly and tragically overblown and Deflategate was a travesty. Pats Nation has a hard earned but undeserved case of PTSD, will for a long time, and that accounts for a lot of the shit we see in here.
 
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Deathofthebambino

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Let me ask you (and anyone else) this: do you think Patriot fans have generally changed over the past 15-20 years? If so, how?
I will take a shot at this question, because I've certainly noticed some changes in Pats fan both in real life, and in places like this message board, over the years. Quick background, I started regularly attending Pats games shortly after getting my driver's license in 1992. I went to college 20 miles from the stadium, and had a buddy with season tix, so I probably attended 10-20 games from 1994-1998, while I was in college. During the fall of 1998, I started buying 2 of his season tickets outright (and have had them ever since). I missed exactly one home game at Gillette from 1998-2013. Since 2013, I've realized it takes me about 3 days to recover from a hangover, and frankly, I love the Red Zone channel, so I've attended a couple games each year with my son, etc. I've also been a member of this site since 2003. Bottom line, I think I've got a pretty good grasp on the changes amongst Pats fans.

For the vast majority of Pats fans who predate the Brady years, its' simple. They are no different than Red Sox fans. I've seen a couple of people say things like the Pats "tasted" success prior to 2001. If the Pats tasted success prior to 2001, then the Red Sox similarly tasted success prior to 2004. But let's be honest here, the Pats sucked prior to 2001. Sucked. Yeah, they made it to a couple of Super Bowls, the first of which resulted in the biggest blowout in SB history for quite some time. Those seasons were lightning strikes of luck surrounded by season after season of Cleveland Brown level awfulness. The Pats played in the worst stadium, had the worst ownership, and fielded the worst team in the NFL. We were sitting on metal bleachers in December in New England, need I say more. The bottom line is those fans that went through those years, and then subsequently reached and won a Super Bowl, then another, then another are, IMO, no different than Red Sox fans who endured years of misery and then won a World Series, then another, then another....I don't see anyone comparing Sox fans to Yankee fans, so I don't even understand the argument when people say Pats fans are like Yankee fans.

I admittedly can't speak to the "younger" generation of Pats fans, people born after say 1985, who generally never suffered through any dark times with this team, because frankly, I don't associate or have much contact with those folks outside of the very young children in my family or their cousins, etc.

Where I have noticed a difference though is on sites like this and on social media, and I can't speak to whether it's an age thing because most of the time, i have no idea what the age of the poster may be. I've been dumbstruck the passed few years of people and the way they post in the game threads or on Facebook/Twitter, for the most part. I don't want to say the word is "entitled" because half the time, I can't tell if people just don't understand or know the game of football, or if they are young, old or in between. What I do know is that if Brady made a bad throw in 2004, we wouldn't have a dozen people jumping in to immediately say how he's lost it, or he doesn't have it, or he's off today or he sucks. If the defense in 2004 gave up a touchdown on the opening drive, it would have been met with concern or anxiety, but we wouldn't have people freaking out and saying our defense sucks, or Patricia blows or BB forgot how to coach. I mean, we still shit on the guy that said "TB quit on the Patriots" back in 2014, but we have posts that make that look tame on every page of some of the game threads nowadays. It's like folks believe that the result of every single play is somehow indicative and predictive of everything going forward.

I think there are either a lot of people that are just so accustomed to winning, or having Brady and the Pats perform well that they almost expect perfection. I shake my head in wonder when I see these posts because to me, it just exposes the poster as someone that either only watches the Patriots or is so spoiled (which I think is the better word than entitled) that they don't even realize what they are saying. I say they only watch the Pats because if you actually watched the rest of the NFL and then watched the Patriots, you'd really do nothing but thank your lucky stars that you are rooting for a QB, coach and a team that is doing what they do on a weekly basis, and not shitting on them for every single "bad" play. These people would have been turned to stone by the regulars around here in the early/mid 2000's, game thread or not, but I think the tide has turned on that front. And let me be clear, there is no issue with pointing out mistakes by Brady or shitting on Malcolm Butler when he makes a bad play, but every incomplete pass is not a mistake, and every time the other team scores a touchdown doesn't mean our defense failed (the other guys get paid to make plays too). I think fans of other teams are happy to win on a given Sunday, whereas I think a lot Patriot fans (again, online versus real life) aren't happy unless they blow a team out and play to near or total perfection. Fans are starting to hold the Patriots to a nearly impossible standard, and that's something that has most definitely changed in the last 5-10 years, IMO.

To be clear, I didn't spend a ton of time putting a lot of thought into this, as long as it might be, so I probably didn't lay out my thoughts as well as I should have, but I don't have time for that anymore either, but that's been my experience as a Pats fan.
 

taoofoj

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What I do know is that if Brady made a bad throw in 2004, we wouldn't have a dozen people jumping in to immediately say how he's lost it, or he doesn't have it, or he's off today or he sucks. If the defense in 2004 gave up a touchdown on the opening drive, it would have been met with concern or anxiety, but we wouldn't have people freaking out and saying our defense sucks, or Patricia blows or BB forgot how to coach. I mean, we still shit on the guy that said "TB quit on the Patriots" back in 2014, but we have posts that make that look tame on every page of some of the game threads nowadays. It's like folks believe that the result of every single play is somehow indicative and predictive of everything going forward.
I think part of this is that the last ~5 years Pats fans have been expecting the Brady / BB ride to end at some point 'soon.' In 2004 Brady was 27 and won 3 SBs already. He still had half his career in front of him. Now it's SB or bust every year partially because of the elevated expectations based on past success; but with some added urgency these last handful of years because we know the end of the Brady / BB era is coming. That urgency manifests as overreactions because people are afraid of the end finally getting here.

Where the Yankees can keep spending for the next 10-20-30-100 years if they want to, the Pats are stepping into the great unknown once Brady / BB move on, and it could be back to the doldrums.
 

Willie Clay's Big Play

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I'd like to think people aren't just kicking you while you're down. I'm still younger, my best childhood gift was a Terry Glenn jersey I received during his rookie year - Jambalaya!! Anyways, my thoughts are:
  1. It's ok to have an irrational dislike of an athlete or team and it can be completely subjective. I always disliked John Lackey, couldn't tell you why, just did. Took a world series to find him tolerable.
  2. As fans, we always seek great stories. These can be either triumphs or failures. That's what keeps me tuning in to anything.
Tl;dr: Don't take it to heart, some people are just jerks and wouldn't say half the asinine things on this post if you knew them. Win some, lose some and watching your team play in a game that matters is a fucking blast, regardless of the outcome.

Edit: spelling
 

singaporesoxfan

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@ConigliarosPotential , the thing I found interesting about your list is that you've generally omitted the idea of the teams as representatives of their cities, and completely omitted the idea that you hate a team because you hate the city it represents, even as you later reference anti-Georgia sentiment. But why not? You live in the UK, right, so I'm sure you've seen a lot of football/soccer animosity expressed in those terms.

I know in a system with drafting and free agency it's not like most players play for their local team, but I still think it's valid to say, for example, "I hate Philadelphia teams because I hate people who say 'jawn' and I can't stand Wawas".
 

DanoooME

above replacement level
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One last comment. I think you should lighten up. This board treats visiting fans extremely well. We have Yankees Fan Moderators and Dopes for goodness sake. There are fans of the Yankees, Raiders, Dolphins, Jets (though not many), Cowboys, Broncos and other teams who are regular contributors to threads here and I who I think are treated well by most, if not all, of us. It's bad form to show up the day after their team beats the Pats or Sox and gloat, but I don't remember having seen that much here. I also don't recall people taking shots at you. If they don't like your team, for whatever reason, well that's part of being a sports fanatic.
I think there are either a lot of people that are just so accustomed to winning, or having Brady and the Pats perform well that they almost expect perfection. I shake my head in wonder when I see these posts because to me, it just exposes the poster as someone that either only watches the Patriots or is so spoiled (which I think is the better word than entitled) that they don't even realize what they are saying. I say they only watch the Pats because if you actually watched the rest of the NFL and then watched the Patriots, you'd really do nothing but thank your lucky stars that you are rooting for a QB, coach and a team that is doing what they do on a weekly basis, and not shitting on them for every single "bad" play. These people would have been turned to stone by the regulars around here in the early/mid 2000's, game thread or not, but I think the tide has turned on that front. And let me be clear, there is no issue with pointing out mistakes by Brady or shitting on Malcolm Butler when he makes a bad play, but every incomplete pass is not a mistake, and every time the other team scores a touchdown doesn't mean our defense failed (the other guys get paid to make plays too). I think fans of other teams are happy to win on a given Sunday, whereas I think a lot Patriot fans (again, online versus real life) aren't happy unless they blow a team out and play to near or total perfection. Fans are starting to hold the Patriots to a nearly impossible standard, and that's something that has most definitely changed in the last 5-10 years, IMO.

To be clear, I didn't spend a ton of time putting a lot of thought into this, as long as it might be, so I probably didn't lay out my thoughts as well as I should have, but I don't have time for that anymore either, but that's been my experience as a Pats fan.
I could have quoted a lot of other folks in this, so I'm not picking on you two specifically. But these had some points I wanted to talk about.

1. One thing that I think needs to be remembered, and this is a relatively minor point, while this board is 99% Red Sox fans, since that's the primary reason it was set up in the first place, the percentage of Red Sox fans that are also Patriots fans is less. Maybe not a lot less, but a significant enough percentage. There are fans for many of the other teams here and some teams have multiple fans contributing to their team threads. I think that gets a little lost in the discussion.

2. I agree with Theo that for the most part non-Pats fans are treated decently. It took a major overhaul in BbtL in terms of membership and moderation to get it to a point where it was someplace worth contributing to. It's easy to forget the issues from years ago. However, it's not all punch & cookies out there and the last two Super Bowl wins by the Pats have seen standards slip. I expect a lot more garbage in the game threads; hell, that's pretty much what they are for. But, in my opinion, a lot of Pats fan arrogance sneaks into the other team threads too. The biggest way is the constant comments about how this or that would never happen under Belichick and how every other team is stupid. This happens in pretty much every thread and it's annoying to read over and over and over and over again. We get it; your team is the best and worth bragging about. I don't think any non-Pats fan would think otherwise.

The Steelers thread is the first team example. I mean, the constantly demeaning thread titles, which while humorous at times, are cringeworthy more often than not. I get that there is a rivalry there and there's going to be more venom, but it gets ridiculous. Eventually it got to the point where the Steelers fans have completely bailed on their own thread because of all of the domination of their thread by Pats fans reliving games and plays over and over again. I mean, when a couple of posters ask why the Steeler fans haven't chimed in after 3 pages of posts rehashing the Pats-Steelers game, and a mod has to come into the thread telling people to knock it off (and even after a pre-warning BEFORE the game), you can see why it would get old after awhile and people don't want to contribute. Next, the Cowboys thread. The crap about Deflategate when talking about Zeke's suspension. Totally unnecessary. Then the Dolphins thread. That I get is a bigger rivalry. But the Jarvis Landry talking stuff? Shitting on Ryan Tannehill's injury? Shitting on the Fins fans after the win over NE? Raiders thread, someone claiming they were "broken" by the Pats. I could go on, you can find examples in pretty much every team thread. And it may be one or two people in a thread, but across all of the threads, it adds up.

I know I don't go into Pats threads pretty much at all because, particularly in the past couple of years, because I have found them more boasting and mocking than having actual information, analysis and discussion. Let me make it clear, it's not everyone doing this. And some of it may be folks being subconsciously unaware that these things are being done. But it creates an environment that people DON'T want to contribute in.

3. This attitude isn't limited to this board by any stretch of the imagination. As someone who lived in Maine for 20 years, I have lots of friends who are Pats fans and a lot of them are guilty of this. It's going to be the nature of rooting for a team that's had an extended run of success. And the younger generation hasn't had to deal with adversity, so a lot of it comes from there. So I get where it comes from. But I would think we'd all expect things to be better on this board than the general public. It's still a good place. I just think the whole attitude needs to be toned down some, unless you really want to alienate the fans of other teams here. I think we all have a lot to contribute, and the community as a whole would do better with more participation.

I don't think CP's point should be lost in the fact that he brought his feelings up w/r/t game threads. It's pervasive everywhere on the board. And it's seemed to have picked up this year. I was going to start my own thread earlier in the year when I was reaching my own frustration point, but didn't because of the attitude I expected (and see) in this thread. I would hope if other non-Pats fans feel the same way, they also speak up.

And some "LOL BOO HOO, you're a Seahawks fan, of course, you're still mad about XLIX" comments wouldn't surprise me either. But I'm not standing up for me. I'm standing up for the community as a whole. Because it's worth it to make this a better place for all.
 

Koufax

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Too bad there is no "like" button here, so Ill just say that I skimmed CP's original post, thought it identified a real issue, and think that Danomee's post is quite correct. I'm a pretty passionate Pats fan, but that doesn't equate to thinking that other teams or their coaches are idiots or dirtbags, which is a tone that is found here all too often of late. Not always, of course. Some have jumped in to point out that Pete Carroll, for example, deserves credit for his success in Seattle. I don't have the time or the insight to delve deeply into the analysis of match-ups, but I greatly appreciate those who do. They separate this forum from talk radio.
 

luckiestman

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The “fuck people in GA” thing was absurd but it was one post in a GT.

I don’t really have any complaints about this place. Matter of fact, I kind of like it. Is it biased? Yeah, no shit. Still better than elsewhere.

Pats fans as a species hardly existed pre Kraft, and now you’ve won so much that you’re tired of winning.

Posting in a sociology of Pats fans thread because there is nothing to discuss about the upcoming ass kicking less than a weak out from the Brady invitational.

I just changed my mind. Fuck you guys.
 

glasspusher

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Jul 20, 2005
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I'm not a football fan, I enjoy watching you Pats fans here, any friends I have are not Pats fans (except my bro in Reading). I appreciate how long the Pats sucked and now are amazing, so I just see how it all plays out.

That said, go sox, fuck the MFYs, and I do respect the cool MFY fans both personal friends and those on this board.
 

eustis22

New Member
Nov 14, 2016
998
Well NOW I feel bad. I've been mad at the South since Bush II and I suppose that antipathy drove my post. Consider it withdrawn.

FTR the only fans I actively dislike are Jets fans. So much crowing. So little reason. I dislike the Broncos franchise. That's about it for my football-related biases. Oh, and Jerry Jones.

I am heartily sick of defending greatness, howsomeever. Its a trigger for me. At the same time Atlanta was losing, I was in another forum reading how Brady/BB are still cheaters and it will all come out the week before the SB. It wearies me and makes me cranky. No real excuse but my comment was mostly heat-of-the-moment.
 

Reverend

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The “fuck people in GA” thing was absurd but it was one post in a GT.

I don’t really have any complaints about this place. Matter of fact, I kind of like it. Is it biased? Yeah, no shit. Still better than elsewhere.

Pats fans as a species hardly existed pre Kraft, and now you’ve won so much that you’re tired of winning.

Posting in a sociology of Pats fans thread because there is nothing to discuss about the upcoming ass kicking less than a weak out from the Brady invitational.

I just changed my mind. Fuck you guys.
This whole thread is going to be worth it just for this beautiful, exquisite piece of posting.

One wonders if anything but the crucible of Jets fandom could have forged such an attitude as this, wending its way impervious through the exultant hoarded of those who heap scorn and ridicule upon his pathetic plight.

Call me? :love:
 

Spacemans Bong

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In fairness, Atlanta had the Braves. They couldn’t sell out postseason games.

I’ve spent almost no time in Atlanta, so I won’t speculate about the reasons, but it’s clear that folks there aren’t as in to professional sports as those of us in New England are. Not a moral judgment — just an observation.
I judge them. I find SEC mania off-putting, because the pros are the pinnacle of the sport and Atlanta has professional sports. They're not Alabama where SEC is the only game in town. I'll never forgive Atlanta for 1993, and I don't forgive them for taking that Braves team for granted and not showing up to playoff games.

Whether Patriot fans are the new Yankee fans is hard to say. The test will be when Brady and Belichick retire and the Pats suck for a few years. I'm sure some fans will throw a tantrum about it (I would say this would be the Yankee fan reaction), I'm sure some fans will not follow football at all, I'm sure some fans will take it in stride and soothe the losses with copious consumption of America's Game episodes like I've done with the 49ers for years. I tend to think the last group will be the biggest, the Patriots have been good for so long they've etched themselves into the fabric of New England and we're not going to return to the days of Foxboro having 25,000 empty seats and the team struggling to get above the fold of the Globe. But I would have said the same for the Celtics and my perception is they definitely fell off the radar at times in the 90s and 2000s.

I guess the only thing I'll say is, as somebody who remembers the 2nd half of the 49er dynasty about as well as it's possible for a kid to remember, it'll never get better than this. You will never love and respect the Patriots as much as you do now, so enjoy it.

Also, fuck the Dallas Cowboys. They could go 1-15* for a decade and it would not stop the loathing I have for them.

*this would be better than 0-16, because watching the Cowboys and their dipshit fans celebrating their last second field goal over the Cardinals or Browns would be much funnier than them going 0-16.
 
Some very thoughtful and interesting responses in this thread - many thanks to everyone for contributing positively. I particularly liked this post from the Pats' perspective...
I will take a shot at this question, because I've certainly noticed some changes in Pats fan both in real life, and in places like this message board, over the years...
...and this post from the non-Pats' perspective:
I could have quoted a lot of other folks in this, so I'm not picking on you two specifically. But these had some points I wanted to talk about....
(Quotes truncated to save space.)
 

pk1627

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I have no problem with Yankee fans. They live their team. I have a big problem with the Yankees. Force of evil.

I’m not a Pats fan, but very proud of them and always love a Boston championship. I chose Denver.

Some similarities between the two fan bases that expect titles. More differences. The main one is explaining a loss.

If the Yankees fail, *shrug*. Statistical anomalies. David Wells wasn’t in shape. Kevin Brown not a true Yankee. Although no one player emblemized them more, but I digress.

If the Pats lose, it’s because of a call. The league is against us. The commish willed it to reward Manning (either).
 

Average Reds

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I know in a system with drafting and free agency it's not like most players play for their local team, but I still think it's valid to say, for example, "I hate Philadelphia teams because I hate people who say 'jawn' and I can't stand Wawas".
I concur with your assessment of the Philly accent. However, the bolded marks you as an enemy of the people.
 

johnmd20

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I concur with your assessment of the Philly accent. However, the bolded marks you as an enemy of the people.
Seriously. Wawa is the pinnacle of life. The best part of going to college in PA was Wawa. The best part about going to Philly is Wawa. There is almost nothing else good in Philly but Wawa. And maybe Dietz and Watson.
 
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