Chris Sale to Boston for Moncada, Kopech, & 2 Prospects

Harry Hooper

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But this bothers me:



His delivery is the stuff of nightmares. I'll be cringing with each pitch.

Don't worry, those T2000 models are self-healing. Weird, I know, but the first thing I thought of when I saw that Sale photo was this:






Looks to be a relatively fair value trade unless one expects the next couple of years to bring a blown-out arm for Sale and a MVP-ish run for Moncada.

Regarding Buchholz, hard to see teams lining up to make meaningful offers if they think DD has to deal him.
 

joe dokes

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I know that people may not like to hear this but Aaron Hill wouldn't be the worst platoon partner for Sandoval. Yeah, he sucked here - but he's not fat, it's a small sample, and you can't ignore what he did in Milwaukee vs lefties as well as his overall career. What other part-time RHH options are available at 3B? Eduardo Nunez? A spring training flier for 37 year old Juan Uribe?
Is there any school of thought that Sandoval's really horrid platoon split coincided with his shoulder injury?
 

Bowlerman9

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I know that people may not like to hear this but Aaron Hill wouldn't be the worst platoon partner for Sandoval. Yeah, he sucked here - but he's not fat, it's a small sample, and you can't ignore what he did in Milwaukee vs lefties as well as his overall career. What other part-time RHH options are available at 3B? Eduardo Nunez? A spring training flier for 37 year old Juan Uribe?
His stats against lefties have been mediocre, at best, over the last 3 years. And he has been putrid against righties. Career stats are nice, but he was a really good player in his 20's but has been pretty terrible for the last 3 seasons. Even if you think he is adequate against lefties, do you really want him facing a righty late in the game after he PH for Sandoval, or even worse, if has to start for an extended period if Sandoval or Hanley is hurt?
 

Harry Hooper

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Cashman/Yankees chimes in
“@AndrewMarchand: Yankees GM Brian Cashman calls the Red Sox "the Golden State Warriors of baseball" after Chris Sale trade. https://t.co/3Kii4wcBhJ
"People say stuff like that just to get you fired." [/McNamara]

Is there any school of thought that Sandoval's really horrid platoon split coincided with his shoulder injury?
Pablo has attested to there being a connection. How much of an improvement he can demonstrate in 2017 remains to be seen.
 

Marciano490

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My bad - I read it wrong.

Thanks for pointing that out.
I'm not in his head, so it could've been backhanded, but I take a comparison to Golden State to mean we're stacked and favorites in the AL at least. If he was going to say we're abusing the market to unfairly collect assets, there's some other franchise that'd make a more apt comparison. Can't quite put my finger on it though.
 

joe dokes

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His stats against lefties have been mediocre, at best, over the last 3 years. And he has been putrid against righties. Career stats are nice, but he was a really good player in his 20's but has been pretty terrible for the last 3 seasons. Even if you think he is adequate against lefties, do you really want him facing a righty late in the game after he PH for Sandoval, or even worse, if has to start for an extended period if Sandoval or Hanley is hurt?
I liked the Hill acquisition at the time. But unless there was something else going on, I think he demonstrated only that he's cooked.
 

heavyde050

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I'm not in his head, so it could've been backhanded, but I take a comparison to Golden State to mean we're stacked and favorites in the AL at least. If he was going to say we're abusing the market to unfairly collect assets, there's some other franchise that'd make a more apt comparison. Can't quite put my finger on it though.
That is a great post - esp the last line.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Cashman/Yankees chimes in

“@AndrewMarchand: Yankees GM Brian Cashman calls the Red Sox "the Golden State Warriors of baseball" after Chris Sale trade. https://t.co/3Kii4wcBhJ
I'm pretty sure we don't have anyone who would punch someone in the nuts. Kopech was the closest thing to a nut puncher and he's gone. Price/Buchholz maybe but that's more emotional nut punching.
 

ehaz

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His stats against lefties have been mediocre, at best, over the last 3 years. And he has been putrid against righties. Career stats are nice, but he was a really good player in his 20's but has been pretty terrible for the last 3 seasons. Even if you think he is adequate against lefties, do you really want him facing a righty late in the game after he PH for Sandoval, or even worse, if has to start for an extended period if Sandoval or Hanley is hurt?
Well, we still have Brock Holt. I just don't see many realistic platoon options at 3B if DD is really planning on rolling with the Panda besides Turner (who would just start). Maybe they could workout a deal with Oakland to reunite with Jed Lowrie.
 

Detts

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Cashman is attempting to set an expectation that it will not be his fault when the Yankees don't make the playoffs
 

Beomoose

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Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier 12s13 seconds ago
The White Sox got a haul from the Red Sox for Sale. However, some evaluators surprised Red Sox "only" had to deal 2 elite prospects...

Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier 8s8 seconds ago
...rather than having to add a third like Swihart, Devers, or Groome -- and that the team didn't give up any big leaguers.
Yeah it's been said already, but I keep going back to how pleased I am that nobody from the 40-man roster went to Chicago. This is a trade I'll happily live with.
 

shaggydog2000

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This isn't a bad trade at all. Two lottery tickets. A hard thrower who is more likely to be a reliever than a starter because of control. And a guy with all the tools who has to work on strikeouts. It hurts to lose Moncada, I was really looking forward to seeing him if he worked out, and Kopech had a tantalizing upside, but once I stopped nit-picking Sale, the guy is exactly what you're looking for on a great contract that doesn't run so long that you take a risk on a pitcher in his 30's staying an ace.
 

trekfan55

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Yeah it's been said already, but I keep going back to how pleased I am that nobody from the 40-man roster went to Chicago. This is a trade I'll happily live with.
Not to be picky but Moncada was on the 40 man (as he played last September)

But in all seriousness, that no active ML was involved, and no Swihart sure helps.
 

Pinchrunner#2

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I am not looking forward to the day when Dumbrowski is fired as GM after the Sox win 70 games with a $240m payroll.

If you are going to really make this trade, why not do it last deadline while you still had Ortiz?

The only way these successive moves make sense is if Henry has decided he wants to sell soon.
Exactly what I thought, all of the above.

We are being detroitized, sort of. But the Red Sox have a younger and longer controllable core than the Tigers did. I don't think Dombrowski will be part of the rebuilding process however (in about 4-5 years). I hope not.

I also wonder how much better we are getting by that trade for the next three years. Sale is essentially replacing Wright in the rotation. Moncada would have replaced Sandoval/Holt et al. for the next six years starting summer 17. Kopech is probably two years away. I think I wouldnt have done that trade when I think about that.

Also, I'm not buying into the "wow-DD-means-business" arguments. Anybody could make that trade. The same is true for the Kimbrel trade. It is such a golden return of super prospects and in both cases the opposing GM knew right away: "wow, we are not going to get a better offer. Let's do this. Quickly".
 

SouthernBoSox

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Exactly what I thought, all of the above.

We are being detroitized, sort of. But the Red Sox have a younger and longer controllable core than the Tigers did. I don't think Dombrowski will be part of the rebuilding process however (in about 4-5 years). I hope not.

I also wonder how much better we are getting by that trade for the next three years. Sale is essentially replacing Wright in the rotation. Moncada would have replaced Sandoval/Holt et al. for the next six years starting summer 17. Kopech is probably two years away. I think I wouldnt have done that trade when I think about that.

Also, I'm not buying into the "wow-DD-means-business" arguments. Anybody could make that trade. The same is true for the Kimbrel trade. It is such a golden return of super prospects and in both cases the opposing GM knew right away: "wow, we are not going to get a better offer. Let's do this. Quickly".
Except this exact team was most likely presented the exact same package 5 months ago and didn't take it.
 

geoduck no quahog

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My first reaction on any trade is to take the What-If Test.

How would we feel if the Yankees, Blue Jays or Orioles landed Sale for something similar in prospects. This is how I feel now:

<Applause>

Good deals are good deals (for both trading teams) and bad deals suck. Chicago got back what Sale's worth. Boston gave up a lot for something worth a lot ... and something that immediately makes them Division favorites. Every team facing Boston is going to be praying they get at least one of the back-end pitchers and don't have to face Bird, McHale and Parish.
 

djbayko

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I'm not in his head, so it could've been backhanded, but I take a comparison to Golden State to mean we're stacked and favorites in the AL at least. If he was going to say we're abusing the market to unfairly collect assets, there's some other franchise that'd make a more apt comparison. Can't quite put my finger on it though.
I took it as backhanded but also could be wrong.

Evil Empire had a nicer ring to it and was more direct. +1 Sox
 

Pinchrunner#2

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Drawing that conclusion now would be the same as Sons of Nate Colbert griping because of the shit they got for Pomeranz when teams were desperate for starting pitching. (Espinoza: 6-11; 4.50 ERA; 1.4 WHIP).
Stating the stats of an 18 year old playing in a men's league to underline your argument is stupid.

Espinoza is universally accepted as being one of the very best prospects. And it is also universally accepted that the baseball industry improves all the time projecting players. I am not a scout, but when the overwhelming part of the industry (at least those who speak to the media) states, that they would not have done that trade, I tend to believe them. And that was the case with that trade.
As everybody, Espinoza comes with a risk. But there was also a risk that in Boston, Pomeranz would not be as good as he was for half a season with San Diego. Needless to say, that the trade stunk for me at the time that it was done. Not after it was revealed, that Pomeranz was injured.
 

Al Zarilla

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My first reaction on any trade is to take the What-If Test.

How would we feel if the Yankees, Blue Jays or Orioles landed Sale for something similar in prospects. This is how I feel now:

<Applause>

Good deals are good deals (for both trading teams) and bad deals suck. Chicago got back what Sale's worth. Boston gave up a lot for something worth a lot ... and something that immediately makes them Division favorites. Every team facing Boston is going to be praying they get at least one of the back-end pitchers and don't have to face Bird, McHale and Parish.
Ainge and DJ weren't bad either. And Walton as the sixth pitcher?
 

Jinhocho

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If I were Chicago, I would have insisted on Brian Johnson being included as well. Ready for majors, no room in Boston, etc. Seems silly they didn't.
 

Jack Rabbit Slim

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What is Sale's actual AAV that will be applied to the LT threshold? I can never figure out how option years work for that. Do the Red Sox get credit for the really low salaries he received the last couple years?
 

Plympton91

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Yeah, the thread title should be Red Sox get Sale for 4 prospects.

Don't understand the Fox and the Grapes mentality toward those traded from some here. The handwringing over Moncada's strikeouts and relegation of Kopech to the bullpen, plus under-selling how good Basabe can be is a little unbecoming.

Sale is underpriced by about $60 million. To get that the Red Sox gave up about a present discounted value of $60 million. Sale frontloads that value to 2017-2019. Great trade for the White Sox. Great trade for a team that wants to win as much as they can over the next 3 years and worry about next decade, next decade.

As I said in my initial post early on, just enjoy this absurdly good powerhouse for the next 3 years. Don't fret over what they gave up. I think the willingness to trade Moncada suggests a vote of confidence for Devers. The cupboard isn't completely bare yet.
 

Byrdbrain

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That is pure speculation.
Olney reported earlier today that last season the ChiSox wanted Betts and Benny in the deal. I assume that really is "or" along with other prospects similar to what got traded today. It seems clear the price has come down from last season.
Not facts but more than pure speculation.
 

Average Reds

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Agree completely with P91.

This deal is a good one for both teams, and because the Sox (our Sox) are dealing from strength, that's a huge win. People need to stop trying to pick the deal apart and enjoy the ride.
 

RedOctober3829

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Yeah, the thread title should be Red Sox get Sale for 4 prospects.

Don't understand the Fox and the Grapes mentality toward those traded from some here. The handwringing over Moncada's strikeouts and relegation of Kopech to the bullpen, plus under-selling how good Basabe can be is a little unbecoming.

Sale is underpriced by about $60 million. To get that the Red Sox gave up about a present discounted value of $60 million. Sale frontloads that value to 2017-2019. Great trade for the White Sox. Great trade for a team that wants to win as much as they can over the next 3 years and worry about next decade, next decade.

As I said in my initial post early on, just enjoy this absurdly good powerhouse for the next 3 years. Don't fret over what they gave up. I think the willingness to trade Moncada suggests a vote of confidence for Devers. The cupboard isn't completely bare yet.
Groome has the ability to be a bigger pitching prospect than Kopech while Devers is the 3B of the future.
 

dhappy42

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Agree completely with P91.

This deal is a good one for both teams, and because the Sox (our Sox) are dealing from strength, that's a huge win. People need to stop trying to pick the deal apart and enjoy the ride.
Yes, huge win. For both sides, probably. Enjoy the ride.

But what's this board for if not picking apart deals?
 

RedOctober3829

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Tim Britton offers some insight that Sale could get even better simply be getting out of Chicago.

Sale could also stand to benefit from the teammates around him. In Alex Avila and Dioner Navarro, the White Sox employed two of the game's worst framers behind the plate last season. Although he was below average overall in that category, Sandy Leon was significantly better than those two at framing. Christian Vazquez rates as one of the game's better framers.

Furthermore, Sale has pitched in front of subpar defenses on the south side. Since 2012, the White Sox rank 27th in baseball in defensive runs saved, costing their pitchers a net of 146 runs. The Red Sox rank third, saving their hurlers 141 runs over the same span. With the reported addition of Mitch Moreland Tuesday night, Boston can field plus defenders at first base, second base and in all three outfield spots.

A porous Chicago bullpen has also helped suppress Sale's win total. Eight times in the last four years, he's departed a game with a lead in the eighth inning or later, only to receive a no-decision.
http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/20161206/what-makes-chris-sale-so-good-and-why-might-he-be-even-better-in-boston
 

Georgy Zhukov

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Absolutely thrilled about this deal. Moncada was only touchable in the right deal. When you get the best pitcher in the AL cost controlled to a great contract for three years, you pull that string. Kudos to DD for having the cahones to get it done.

With Pomerantz and Wright potentially fighting for the 5th spot, you know your rotation is stacked. Just think two years ago our top 3 starters in terms of innings pitched were Miley, Porcello, and Joe Kelly. Now we have Sale, Porcelo, and Price. No reason to think Porcello will regress, even if he wins a couple less games. I would bet money that Price will have a better year in 2017. I would still like to see another setup man added to the pen. It still seems we are an injury or two away from running scraps out there again.

How many more wins are we looking at, assuming we get at least an average DH to replace Ortiz?
 

Rasputin

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I've been on a vacation from SoSH for a while, and coming back for this trade feels kind of weird because I am remarkably ambivalent about this trade.

Sale is obviously extremely good but there are some significant legitimate questions about his health. Moncada and Kopech obviously have a ton of talent and high to extremely high ceilings, but there's a significant chance they fall far short of them.

Meanwhile for the next 2-3 years, if people stay healthy, the Sox are likely to be the best team in the AL and possibly the best team in MLB.

If the Red Sox allowed the fewest runs in the AL in 2017 you wouldn't be surprised. If the Red Sox scored the most runs in MLB in 2017 you wouldn't be surprised.

I'm a little bit concerned about 2020 and beyond, especially on the pitching side, but 2017, 2018, and 2019 should be a lot of fun and frankly, three years is plenty of time to bring more talent into the organization.
 

kartvelo

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Sale and TT are both great, but aren't they both already pitching while managing injuries?
 

mulluysavage

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Will Sale stay healthy?

Will Moncada learn to hit breaking stuff?

Will Koepech lower his BB rate?

Risk is always a given in crafting a strategy.

I remember Simmons describing the KG trade as "going all-in with two jacks versus ace-king."

I was glad for that trade, am glad for this one, and am glad DD has the stones to play his cards.