Chris Sale to Boston for Moncada, Kopech, & 2 Prospects

JohntheBaptist

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Any less condescending than comparing Kimbrel to Rivera?
Mother of god you are a moron. It isn't condescending to bring some actual numbers to the table. You don't even get what he was trying to say.

This is a thread about the Red Sox acquiring Chris Sale no fewer than three-ish hours ago and you won't stfu with this stream of digital diarrhea about how nervous Craig Kimbrel makes you. NO ONE CARES. PLEASE STFU AND POST THIS SHIT SOMEWHERE ELSE.
 

foulkehampshire

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I've been on the Turner > EE train from the beginning, but do we really think he will come on a short contract? 13 WAR, 136 OPS+ over the last three years as LAD #3 hitter.

If Chapman and Jansen are really getting $80M or more, I don't see how Turner gets less than that.
Rumors linked to Dodgers and trading for Todd Fraizer. Austin Barnes has made some noise in the minors the last few years.

32 year old journeymen-turned-starters don't typically get 5 year contracts, but we've seen weirder things.
 

aminahyaquin

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Love it. Moncada hurts, but Sale is the best of the best at a position we suck at developing.

We have a ton of young talent on the ML roster, it was time to capitalize and kick the window open.

Agreed on Sale, and the rationale that he is already highly developed in key position. Jury's still out for me on whether we overpaid with still-developing talent. We need to also consider recruitment. Sometimes players sign with Bo-Sox farm not just to get to the Bigs, but because they really, really love us. Or at least have a drive to play for this particular and amazingly storied team. We have been using our talent as a trade wedge for a couple years now in a way that to me, depletes our team's depth and makes acquisitions , even wonderful ones that much more of a gamble given possibilities for injury, etc.
 

Trotski

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I would prefer that this is a precursor to trading Buch, but are they really going to go into 2017 with 4 lefties and Cy as their starters? I have to think that the next shoe is either ERod or Pomeranz. Or Wright as the #5 with Pomeranz as more bullpen depth? That works if you have 1st half Wright, not so much if he turns back into a pumpkin.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

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Mother of god you are a moron. It isn't condescending to bring some actual numbers to the table. You don't even get what he was trying to say.

This is a thread about the Red Sox acquiring Chris Sale no fewer than three-ish hours ago and you won't stfu with this stream of digital diarrhea about how nervous Craig Kimbrel makes you. NO ONE CARES. PLEASE STFU AND POST THIS SHIT SOMEWHERE ELSE.
As a member of the cloth, I'd expect more discipline.

FWIW, I didn't start the bullpen discussion here. That's been a continued topic of conversation across three different threads. Having said that, I'll take that to the Thornburg thread and the discussion of other offseason moves should also be brought out of this thread as well.

Back to Sale, and the really important question that everyone is asking. Does he ask Wakefield's permission to wear #49?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Did they change the IFA in the CBA? If not, I wonder how big the Sox will spend this year in the IFA to recoup some of their losses in the farm. Take the 2 year penalty again but just sign everyone and pray for an international draft.
 

Detts

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This makes tramping Espinoza for pomeranz look even more foolish
Because at the time they should have known that they weren't going to win the world series and thus they would not need to shore up their pitching?

And that also at the time they should have known they were going to get Chris Sales?

And because Espinoza is guaranteed to be the next Pedro Martinez?

Got it.
 

flymrfreakjar

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Seems like precisely the sort of deal you need to make for a player like Sale. It stings, but if he's largely the same pitcher he's been the last several years, it's an easy win. It's going to be very, very fun watching such a talented starting staff while seeing the kids develop on the other side of the ball.
 

DJnVa

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Only on SoSH could we be upset that the Red Sox had to actually give up talent to acquire the BEST SP in the AL the last 5 years who is 27 years old and locked up through 2019 at an incredibly reasonable rate.
Does this thread really seem upset? Doesn't read like that to me at all.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Because at the time they should have known that they weren't going to win the world series and thus they would not need to shore up their pitching?

And that also at the time they should have known they were going to get Chris Sales?

And because Espinoza is guaranteed to be the next Pedro Martinez?

Got it.
I think actually people are now more upset about the Pomeranz deal than the Chris Sale one. Pomeranz was inexcusable. Massive overpay for him. However, this one I can live with.
 

DanoooME

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Did they change the IFA in the CBA? If not, I wonder how big the Sox will spend this year in the IFA to recoup some of their losses in the farm. Take the 2 year penalty again but just sign everyone and pray for an international draft.
That completely changed and there's now a hard cap that everyone has to abide by.

Edit: Damn you Lose for typing faster.
 

Adrian's Dome

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I think actually people are now more upset about the Pomeranz deal than the Chris Sale one. Pomeranz was inexcusable. Massive overpay for him. However, this one I can live with.
How was it inexcusable? They needed rotation help, they got it. Espinoza was insanely overrated by this board...a ton of potential yes, but as raw and young as they come. Getting a viable, good, cost-controlled major league pitcher for him at a time of need isn't a "massive overpay" by any measure unless the only thing you care about is BP minor league system ranks.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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2016 OPS versus lefties AL Ranks:

Orioles 15th
Yankees 13th
Rays 10th
Blue Jays 6th

It is striking to see a Sox rotation with four lefties. I wouldn't mind if they tried to unload Price. His well discussed playoff failures are going to be a lingering issue until (if) he solves them. I'd love to see him turn it around and put together a great post season; it would be a great storyline. But at this point I wouldn't bet on it.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Did they change the IFA in the CBA? If not, I wonder how big the Sox will spend this year in the IFA to recoup some of their losses in the farm. Take the 2 year penalty again but just sign everyone and pray for an international draft.
I believe they did. Going to be a hard 5 million cap or something.

EDIT: Pomeranz is the most likely lefty to be shopped. Price isn't going anywhere.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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How was it inexcusable? They needed rotation help, they got it. Espinoza was insanely overrated by this board...a ton of potential yes, but as raw and young as they come. Getting a viable, good, cost-controlled major league pitcher for him at a time of need isn't a "massive overpay" by any measure unless the only thing you care about is BP minor league system ranks.
For Pomeranz? He had one good half of a season and then finding out he was hurt and you chose not to reverse the transaction? That's what I'm referring to.
 

canderson

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I'm pretty worried Sale is a huge injury risk next year, but still you have to pull this trigger I think.

I believe they'll move Pom into the bullpen, a role I think he's better at in the AL anyway. With Smith hopefully back that's a lethal SP and bullpen.

They need a big bat pretty badly though, I have to think they're going to deal a few pitchers still to get someone (unless they throw money at EE).

This strikes me as Henry giving the OK to blow out to win a title before selling in a few years.
 

joe dokes

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For Pomeranz? He had one good half of a season and then finding out he was hurt and you chose not to reverse the transaction? That's what I'm referring to.
Drawing that conclusion now would be the same as Sons of Nate Colbert griping because of the shit they got for Pomeranz when teams were desperate for starting pitching. (Espinoza: 6-11; 4.50 ERA; 1.4 WHIP).
 

Hank Scorpio

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I don't mind the prospect cost, and I don't mind that Chris Sale doesn't appear to be something this team desperately needs at the moment. And I'm thrilled at the idea of having three aces in our rotation.

But this bothers me:



His delivery is the stuff of nightmares. I'll be cringing with each pitch.
 

nvalvo

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2016 OPS versus lefties AL Ranks:

Orioles 15th
Yankees 13th
Rays 10th
Blue Jays 6th

It is striking to see a Sox rotation with four lefties. I wouldn't mind if they tried to unload Price. His well discussed playoff failures are going to be a lingering issue until (if) he solves them. I'd love to see him turn it around and put together a great post season; it would be a great storyline. But at this point I wouldn't bet on it.
And things have changed in Toronto.
 

joe dokes

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I don't mind the prospect cost, and I don't mind that Chris Sale doesn't appear to be something this team desperately needs at the moment. And I'm thrilled at the idea of having three aces in our rotation.

But this bothers me:



His delivery is the stuff of nightmares. I'll be cringing with each pitch.


Aside from the arm contortion, that's like the reverse Beckett-fat photo. He looks like Manute Bol at U. Bridgeport.
 

nvalvo

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About Olney's tweet quoting an evaluator saying no one else was close to this offer: the Nats' rumored offer of Giolito and Robles is absolutely close to this package. That package is a few rungs down on the top prospect, and a few dozen rungs up on the second piece. And I assume there would have been a few Basabe/Diaz types in that deal, too.

It's close.
 

dhappy42

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...
Teams like Detroit get screwed by trading away ALL of their good prospects and having nothing left. It's not like Devers and Groome and a few others are chopped liver.
Big difference. Boston's outfielders are 22, 24 and 26. Bogaerts and Swihart are 24. The Red Sox's "young prospects" are already on the field. The Tigers' youngest starter is 27.
 

Van Everyman

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This strikes me as Henry giving the OK to blow out to win a title before selling in a few years.
Why does everybody keep saying this? There is zero evidence that Henry wants to move on from owning the Red Sox.

That said, I agree that Henry has signed off on the strategy of maximizing this lineup now. There are only so many guys you can play on the field at once and no shortage of evidence that elite SP is a precondition to making a deep playoff run. Having to go with Clay in Game 3 in the ALDS (esp. after the up and down year he had) was terrible. And with Ben at the controls, they compiled a metric ton of assets down on the farm.

To that end, I would love to have been a fly on the wall when Henry asked DD during his interview what he thought of Ben's GM tenure. Based on how he dealt in Detroit and the no BS decisiveness with which he has moved on Kimbrel, Price, Pomeranz and Sale, I have to imagine DD found Ben's hesitation at the deadline and general lack of impact moves a combination of befuddling and infuriating.
 

simplicio

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Big difference. Boston's outfielders are 22, 24 and 26. Bogaerts and Swihart are 24. The Red Sox's "young prospects" are already on the field. The Tigers' youngest starter is 27.
Point taken, but Fulmer is 23.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I wonder if not being the "ace" will have any effect on Price -- now there are three legitimate A guys. I assume his not meeting expectations is mostly physical and not mental, but who knows. Maybe this takes a bit of pressure off.

Wishful thinking, but who knows.
 

chrisfont9

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I'm in the swallow-a-bit-hard-and-like-it category. Moncada and Kopech were both fun to dream on, and hopefully DD will leave the rest of the farm system alone for a while. But a stacked rotation is still the strongest hand to open with, and we are running short of weak spots now. Trading prospects would hurt a lot more if they didn't play positions already manned by young, amazing talent. Extend a couple of the Bs and plug in Devers and eventually, hopefully Groome, and this could go on for a while.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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I don't mind the prospect cost, and I don't mind that Chris Sale doesn't appear to be something this team desperately needs at the moment. And I'm thrilled at the idea of having three aces in our rotation.

But this bothers me:



His delivery is the stuff of nightmares. I'll be cringing with each pitch.
It looks like Randy Johnson's arm.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I wonder if not being the "ace" will have any effect on Price -- now there are three legitimate A guys. I assume his not meeting expectations is mostly physical and not mental, but who knows. Maybe this takes a bit of pressure off.

Wishful thinking, but who knows.
He was on a staff with Verlander and Scherzer. I think his precious ego (of which we have no evidence it can be harmed by this) will be just fine.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Big difference. Boston's outfielders are 22, 24 and 26. Bogaerts and Swihart are 24. The Red Sox's "young prospects" are already on the field. The Tigers' youngest starter is 27.
Also, our most glaring needs are 1b/3b where we still have Devers and Sam Travis. We also still have our best pitching prospect. With that said, as soon as Ben10 graduates, this is a bottom 10 farm system. It took a huge hit but they have time to rebuild it considering the youth already in Boston.
 

Rough Carrigan

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Wow.
I like this deal. I had no idea Sale was on such a cheap contract. Holy crap.

And will everyone suggesting that Sale put on some weight please shut the hell up. Do you think you're the first one to think of that? Oh, thin guy. He should try to put on weight. He's heard that since before he got to the majors and he's tried. He's thin. Live with it.
 

joe dokes

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Why does everybody keep saying this? There is zero evidence that Henry wants to move on from owning the Red Sox.

That said, I agree that Henry has signed off on the strategy of maximizing this lineup now. There are only so many guys you can play on the field at once and no shortage of evidence that elite SP is a precondition to making a deep playoff run. Having to go with Clay in Game 3 in the ALDS (esp. after the up and down year he had) was terrible. And with Ben at the controls, they compiled a metric ton of assets down on the farm.

To that end, I would love to have been a fly on the wall when Henry asked DD during his interview what he thought of Ben's GM tenure. Based on how he dealt in Detroit and the no BS decisiveness with which he has moved on Kimbrel, Price, Pomeranz and Sale, I have to imagine DD found Ben's hesitation at the deadline and general lack of impact moves a combination of befuddling and infuriating.
And its not like they're dumping the farm for a bunch of vets with little time left. The recent acquisitions (even BenC getting Porcello) were 30 or under except Hanley. They dont have guys that are likely headed into geezerhood making 20M/yr.
 

Cesar Crespo

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And its not like they're dumping the farm for a bunch of vets with little time left. The recent acquisitions (even BenC getting Porcello) were 30 or under except Hanley. They dont have guys that are likely headed into geezerhood making 20M/yr.
Outside of Pablo and even then there is hope.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Also, our most glaring needs are 1b/3b where we still have Devers and Sam Travis. We also still have our best pitching prospect. With that said, as soon as Ben10 graduates, this is a bottom 10 farm system. It took a huge hit but they have time to rebuild it considering the youth already in Boston.
Ben10 has graduated already. He should be the opening day LF.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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He was on a staff with Verlander and Scherzer. I think his precious ego (of which we have no evidence it can be harmed by this) will be just fine.
I was actually saying something exactly opposite -- that playing in Boston might be easier for him now, being surrounded by two other top of the rotation guys.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Drawing that conclusion now would be the same as Sons of Nate Colbert griping because of the shit they got for Pomeranz when teams were desperate for starting pitching. (Espinoza: 6-11; 4.50 ERA; 1.4 WHIP).
Well I mean there were a lot of people upset with the deal from the get go when Pomeranz was considered healthy.
 

joe dokes

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Here's one yes vote. You'll never guess.......
And the Red Sox now have a 27-year-old lefthander who is tough as nails. As I’ve written a few times, the Red Sox needed to add a tough pitcher, and now they have him.
So tough that he cried when the WSox did the LaRoche family wrong and made Sale wear silly uniforms. ;)


Outside of Pablo and even then there is hope.
Even Pablo would only be 33-34 when his deal is up. He may suck, but that's not an age when you expect guys to suck. (like the Ellsbury and Pujols deals, for example).
 

Cesar Crespo

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Ben10 has graduated already. He should be the opening day LF.
I meant from an official stand point. Ben10 is still a prospect and will be a rookie in 2017. He will be on prospect lists. In 25 more at bats, he loses his prospect status. Oddly enough, it is at bats and not plate appearances. So I guess if you went 0/0 with 500bb in a season you'd still technically be a rookie but w/e.
 

foulkehampshire

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Do the Sox *really* need a big bat? Don't have the have the best offense in the AL with defensive and pitching improvements. It's still fairly decent and there's a factors that could bridge that gap.

Benintendi, Swihart
Less Brock Holt, Christian Vazquez
No Shaw
Expanded DH work for Chris Young vs LHP
No major regression from JBJ, Betts, Pedroia.
2nd half Hanley Ramirez all year.
Improved consistency from Xander

Pablo is the xfactor. If he could hit RHP like he did from 2011-2013 and play adequate defense that would be a huge boon to the team. Platoon Pablo could work, maybe try to trade for a piece to complement him vs LHP.

*edit, didn't see the Valencia trade*
 
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czar

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I get you are a big Buchholz guy, but he is most likely gone in a year and adding more prospects simple to add more prospects isn't really a pressing need (imo) if it is ultimately taking away from the MLB roster.

Besides, there is always a decent chance you just end up having to turn around and make the reverse trade a year or 2 from now. With no guarantees that it plays out to be a push in our favor.
There are 7 starters. I don't think trading ERod or Pomeranz as opposed to Buchholz hurts the MLB team in any significant (marginal) fashion for 2017 because you're now rearranging rotation depth between relatively "equal" projections (assuming all three guys are pegged for like a 4.00-4.50 ERA) next year. I might agree with you if we had 5, but you're now stuffing two of "the backend four" into the bullpen if the season started today.

No one would deny that the two former players could draw much (much) more in return than Buchholz. It really depends on whether cutting $$$ is more important than replenishing the farm system after it's been semi-gutted the last couple years. Totally ignoring Buchholz, it also may be a misallocation of resources to burn the younger, cheaper players in the bullpen for the next few years (assuming you know 60% of the rotation is totally locked for 3+ years).

Also, it's worth noting that the Red Sox can't (shouldn't) totally gut the lower levels of the farm system because you are going to need to find some cheap, cost-controlled talent in 3-4 years when X, Betts, JBJ, etc. are all coming due for extensions. Moving someone like Pomeranz for blue-chip, AA-lower talent could help with that goal without harming the team's chances significantly next year (assuming you are like me and think he's an OK, cheap, back-of-the-rotation guy and not an ace).
 

ehaz

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I know that people may not like to hear this but Aaron Hill wouldn't be the worst platoon partner for Sandoval. Yeah, he sucked here - but he's not fat, it's a small sample, and you can't ignore what he did in Milwaukee vs lefties as well as his overall career. What other part-time RHH options are available at 3B? Eduardo Nunez? A spring training flier for 37 year old Juan Uribe?