ALCS: Blue Jays vs Fighting Titos

BaseballJones

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I don't disagree with your larger point vis a vis unsustainability, but I think you're pretty seriously glossing over the fact that Tito flipping his closer and setup man due to matchups (each covering more than an inning) is a move that 29 other managers simply wouldn't have made. Your comment about "putting guys in a position to succeed" strikes me as overly cavalier as well. "Putting guys in a position to succeed" doesn't mean everyone gets to face the shittiest hitters. It means that when there is a predictable tough part of the order, you don't ask your 4th best reliever to mow them down, you ask your best one based on matchups.

If you honestly think John Farrell or most (any?) other MLB managers would have navigated a bullpen as well as Tito has been doing, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
No, I think Tito's been marvelous. I think I've been clear on that point. But all I'm saying is that you can make a "right" move and the guy you put in gives up a bomb anyway to a crap hitter. Or you can make a "wrong" move and the guy induces a weak popup to the league's leading hitter. Tito has done very well. But his relief pitchers (and his starters too, for that matter) have been outstanding. And when the guys on the field do their jobs well, it makes the manager look that much better. Conversely, when they don't do their jobs, it makes them look worse.

So for example... is starting Kluber on three days' rest in game 4 the right move, a day after his bullpen had to pitch the entire game? Arguments can be made both ways. If Kluber doesn't do well and they lose 5-3, and then he cannot go until game 7, and meanwhile, the other two starters get (predictably) lit up in games 5 and 6, suddenly pitching Kluber in game 4 and having a spent bullpen and Kluber again on 3 days' rest for game 7 doesn't seem like a good situation. But if Kluber does his job and the Indians win, it'll look like a gutsy, genius move.
 

Bergs

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No, I think Tito's been marvelous. I think I've been clear on that point. But all I'm saying is that you can make a "right" move and the guy you put in gives up a bomb anyway to a crap hitter. Or you can make a "wrong" move and the guy induces a weak popup to the league's leading hitter. Tito has done very well. But his relief pitchers (and his starters too, for that matter) have been outstanding. And when the guys on the field do their jobs well, it makes the manager look that much better. Conversely, when they don't do their jobs, it makes them look worse.

So for example... is starting Kluber on three days' rest in game 4 the right move, a day after his bullpen had to pitch the entire game? Arguments can be made both ways. If Kluber doesn't do well and they lose 5-3, and then he cannot go until game 7, and meanwhile, the other two starters get (predictably) lit up in games 5 and 6, suddenly pitching Kluber in game 4 and having a spent bullpen and Kluber again on 3 days' rest for game 7 doesn't seem like a good situation. But if Kluber does his job and the Indians win, it'll look like a gutsy, genius move.
Gotcha. Kluber is a tough call for sure.
 

bankshot1

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Seeing that Tito was forced to use most of his BP yesterday, the decision to start Kluber today was probably made as soon as Bauer sprung a leak. He probably needs 6+ innings from Kluber.
 

KiltedFool

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Seeing that Tito was forced to use most of his BP yesterday, the decision to start Kluber today was probably made as soon as Bauer sprung a leak. He probably needs 6+ innings from Kluber.
There's a lot of discussion on Tribe boards whether to pitch Kluber Game 4 or 5, lot of rational arguments to be made both ways. Tito plays for the win today, and yeah it could blow up on him because Kluber doesn't have a short rest track record, and it could cascade on him. If you push Kluber to Game 5 you may give the Jays a chance to get up off the mat and get some momentum.

The pen isn't really that burnt. It's not max power right now, but likely only Shaw and Allen are burnt, having thrown 28 and 27 pitches. Miller threw 21. Otero and Manship threw 20, McAllister threw 12. And in a chance to close it out Shaw and Allen may be available for match up duty, you know how Tito goes. Other than the big 3 the pen is so well rested they threw on Saturday after the game to try to fight rust.
 

E5 Yaz

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espn: During the Bauer affair last night, did Francona think about Schilling's bloody sock? "No, that was 12 years ago. I can barely remember left week. I know that would make for a good story, but that's not what I was thinking about."
 

trekfan55

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I don't disagree with your larger point vis a vis unsustainability, but I think you're pretty seriously glossing over the fact that Tito flipping his closer and setup man due to matchups (each covering more than an inning) is a move that 29 other managers simply wouldn't have made. Your comment about "putting guys in a position to succeed" strikes me as overly cavalier as well. "Putting guys in a position to succeed" doesn't mean everyone gets to face the shittiest hitters. It means that when there is a predictable tough part of the order, you don't ask your 4th best reliever to mow them down, you ask your best one based on matchups.

If you honestly think John Farrell or most (any?) other MLB managers would have navigated a bullpen as well as Tito has been doing, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
MLB post game show was all over this. They did not necessarily disagree, but they were going on about it. No one really went on about how it was probably dictated by matchups. And while I agree that Farrell does not make that move, I think the main case here is that not too many teams have such a good bullpen arm as Miller behind their closer on the depth chart. The Sox don't really have one behind Kinbrell and when they did (Uehara to start 2013) he ended up as the closer anyway.
 

santadevil

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Seeing that Tito was forced to use most of his BP yesterday, the decision to start Kluber today was probably made as soon as Bauer sprung a leak. He probably needs 6+ innings from Kluber.
There was discussion about this before the game started I believe.
Because they were mentioning if Bauer had to come out early, that Kluber would be going on short rest instead.
 

E5 Yaz

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There's a lot of discussion on Tribe boards whether to pitch Kluber Game 4 or 5, lot of rational arguments to be made both ways. Tito plays for the win today, and yeah it could blow up on him because Kluber doesn't have a short rest track record, and it could cascade on him. If you push Kluber to Game 5 you may give the Jays a chance to get up off the mat and get some momentum.

The pen isn't really that burnt. It's not max power right now, but likely only Shaw and Allen are burnt, having thrown 28 and 27 pitches. Miller threw 21. Otero and Manship threw 20, McAllister threw 12. And in a chance to close it out Shaw and Allen may be available for match up duty, you know how Tito goes. Other than the big 3 the pen is so well rested they threw on Saturday after the game to try to fight rust.
The way it looks to me is that Tito is thinking like this

Game 4: Kluber (3 days)
Game 5: Merritt, etc.
Game 6: Tomlin (regular rest)
Game 7: Kluber (3 days)

I prefer the step on the throat approach, but I can see the other side.
 

Bergs

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MLB post game show was all over this. They did not necessarily disagree, but they were going on about it. No one really went on about how it was probably dictated by matchups. And while I agree that Farrell does not make that move, I think the main case here is that not too many teams have such a good bullpen arm as Miller behind their closer on the depth chart. The Sox don't really have one behind Kinbrell and when they did (Uehara to start 2013) he ended up as the closer anyway.
Well of course it was dictated by matchups. That's the whole point. Tito's approach was well beyond what most - if not all - other MLB managers would have done when gifted a killer setup man and a great closer. I can't think of a single example of this, which of course doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
 

patoaflac

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Sports history and records are quite strange. You sweep a team and two weeks later it's the opposite. All these managerial Tito tactics could haunt him and as he was the winning manager in 2004, he could lose it all in 2016. Cleveland pitching has been perfect in a SSS, but it could revert in any moment.
 

KiltedFool

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Bauer's pretty hardcore:


TORONTO – In the days leading up to Game 3 of the American League Championship Series, when Trevor Bauer sat in the Cleveland Indians’ trainer’s room getting treatment on his mangled right pinky, he kept asking the medical staff to use a soldering iron and burn shut the wound he suffered at a hotel when a drone he was repairing went haywire and sliced his finger from the nail to second knuckle. They laughed, even though they understood Bauer was dead serious and regretted not cauterizing it himself the night of the injury.

“I even had a soldering iron in my hotel room,” Bauer said. “Instead of going to the ER, I probably should’ve sealed it closed myself.”
August Fagerstrom of Fangraphs in his chat said he believed Bauer was dead serious about it.

edit: Poor hotel housekeeping staff probably had to clean up a good bit of blood, just realized it was listed that he did it in a hotel.
 

E5 Yaz

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Sports history and records are quite strange. You sweep a team and two weeks later it's the opposite. All these managerial Tito tactics could haunt him and as he was the winning manager in 2004, he could lose it all in 2016. Cleveland pitching has been perfect in a SSS, but it could revert in any moment.
Revert to what? Cleveland's bullpen has been one of the better ones all season. Their staff ERA was second (only to Toronto).
 

54thMA

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Not sure if anyone here has mentioned it or not, but in 54 post season innings, Cleveland's two opponents have yet to score more than one run in any inning, that is mind boggling to me.

I don't follow the Indians, as in I wouldn't know 22 of their players if I fell over them, but from what I've read, they are down two of their better pitchers and a third one almost bled to death last night on the mound in the first inning.

What they've done is nothing short of spectacular in the pitching department; last night their starter was forced to leave the game in the bottom of the first inning and gee, no problem, plug in the next guy and he mows down the Blue Jays like Bob Gibson.

This is their year, the Cubs or the Dodgers have no chance vs this team, they are destiny's darlings for sure this year, looks like loserville is no more with both the Cadavers and the Tribe winning titles in the same year. Imagine those loaded teams of the mid to late 1990's in Cleveland could not do what this team is going to do, ie, win a WS title.

That's the beauty of sports, that's why we all watch, for the chance to view the improbable, sports does not follow a script as if it did, the Red Sox would be playing the Jays in game 4 today in Toronto.......................
 

trekfan55

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My brother in law is a plastic surgeon and deals with a lot of these issues. He is very observant so I cannot talk to him until tonight, but I'm dying to hear his opinion on Bauer's finger.
 

trekfan55

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Well of course it was dictated by matchups. That's the whole point. Tito's approach was well beyond what most - if not all - other MLB managers would have done when gifted a killer setup man and a great closer. I can't think of a single example of this, which of course doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
The situation may be backwards. If you have a great closer and 3-4-5 are coming up in the 7th-8th, use him then and then use the lesser pitcher to close out the 9th vs 6-7-8 in the lineup.
 

InstaFace

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looks like loserville is no more with both the Cadavers and the Tribe winning titles in the same year. Imagine those loaded teams of the mid to late 1990's in Cleveland could not do what this team is going to do, ie, win a WS title.
Even with 2 months to go, this is a contender for auto-correct of the year.

And I'll still put Jimmy Fund money on the NL over the AL in the WS this year. Straight-up, first takers up to $100 total.
 

johnmd20

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Even with 2 months to go, this is a contender for auto-correct of the year.

And I'll still put Jimmy Fund money on the NL over the AL in the WS this year. Straight-up, first takers up to $100 total.
I'll take that bet, just for the fun of it. I have the AL. No odds necessary.

edit - for $100
 

trekfan55

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Did Kluber lose the plate or is he being squeezed? I don't trust Gameday's zone.
 

Oppo

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Will be a lot of second guessing if Kluber doesn't keep them in this game.
 

trekfan55

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Maybe but they emptied the pen last night, and there was no attarctive choice but a rookie who has just made one start,

If Bauer had not played with a drone...

Edit: Was responding to Otto
 

Ale Xander

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Maybe but they emptied the pen last night, and there was no attarctive choice but a rookie who has just made one start,

If Bauer had not played with a drone...
The rookie is fully rested
You can just pitch him to save the bullpen for game 5 if he falters, a sacrificial lamb

Now you're screwed for both games
 

54thMA

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Even with 2 months to go, this is a contender for auto-correct of the year.

And I'll still put Jimmy Fund money on the NL over the AL in the WS this year. Straight-up, first takers up to $100 total.
They can rip off ten titles in a row, but to me, they'll always be the Cadavers.
 

Byrdbrain

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The rookie is fully rested
You can just pitch him to save the bullpen for game 5 if he falters, a sacrificial lamb

Now you're screwed for both games
Yep that was one option, the other is go with Kluber now and have him available to start game 7.
They won't let him go much further here and it is still very much a game. Game 5 is obviously going to be tough but not impossible assuming you lose you just need to win one of the next two.
 

E5 Yaz

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Yep that was one option, the other is go with Kluber now and have him available to start game 7.
They won't let him go much further here and it is still very much a game. Game 5 is obviously going to be tough but not impossible assuming you lose you just need to win one of the next two.
Plus, there's no way of knowing how a healthy Bauer would have pitched. People think it's a given he would have been fine.

If they go back to Cleveland ahead 3-2, with Tomlin and Kluber scheduled and the home field, it's not the worst scenario in the world