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What's Aceves Up To?


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#1 Pumpsie


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 04:02 PM

Did anyone experience this latest Alfredo Aceves episode first-hand?  http://www.cbssports...ttitude-problem

 

Is anyone else concerned about this guy? 



#2 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 04:06 PM

Of course. He's had issues with multiple managers; there's a reason the Yankees let him go for nothing. Given how mediocre he was last year, I was somewhat surprised they brought him back. Given the potential logjam in the pen, I think he's on the bubble. A lousy attitude will not help him, and I could easily see him being released or traded. Farrell won't tolerate this shit, will he? Guy is not nearly as good as he thinks he is.

#3 Red(s)HawksFan


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 04:12 PM

Tim Britton had a quote from Aceves in his ProJo blog story:

 

Aceves didn't see what the hubbub was about.


"[I did] whatever is usual for me. And also usual for every single one of us," he said. "I'm pretty satisfied with today."

 

We already know this guy's got a screw or two loose, but if he honestly though he was doing what everyone else was doing with that drill, he's a bigger space cadet than Manny, Julian Tavarez, and Bill Lee put together.

 

I trust Farrell won't be namby-pamby with the discipline if this stuff continues.  My guess is that Aceves sees what's happening with the roster.  He knows he's, at best, #7 or #8 on the rotational depth chart, and he knows that with the addition of Hanrahan, the presence of Bailey and the hopeful return to form of Bard, he's got absolutely no shot at reclaiming the closer spot.  He's battling for the long man spot in the pen (a spot he by no means has an inside track on while competing with Morales and Mortensen, among others), doesn't like it, and is probably doing what he can to "quietly" angle for a trade.



#4 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 04:56 PM

He's battling for the long man spot in the pen (a spot he by no means has an inside track on while competing with Morales and Mortensen, among others), doesn't like it, and is probably doing what he can to "quietly" angle for a trade.

 

If he thinks this kind of stuff is going to improve his curb appeal, he's stupider than we thought. 



#5 Doctor G

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

Aceves is going to pitch for Mexico in the WBC. He could be angling to get dumped before the the WBC starts. That way he could use it as a showcase to shop himself to other clubs. Kind of a big gamble, but if he truly wants to be a starter, it might be the only way to make that happen.

#6 czar


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:06 PM

Aceves is going to pitch for Mexico in the WBC. He could be angling to get dumped before the the WBC starts. That way he could use it as a showcase to shop himself to other clubs. Kind of a big gamble, but if he truly wants to be a starter, it might be the only way to make that happen.

 

The Sox should just DFA him and take the best offer on the table (likely for a C-level minor leaguer, if that).

 

Any velocity gains (and SwStr%) he made last year will likely evaporate once he goes back to a long-relief role and his middling rates are just not enough to offset the headache known as Alfredo Aceves on a team already deep in long-relievers.

 

I was honestly shocked they tendered him a contract.


Edited by czar, 17 February 2013 - 06:06 PM.


#7 Rasputin


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:17 PM

The Sox should just DFA him and take the best offer on the table (likely for a C-level minor leaguer, if that).

 

Any velocity gains (and SwStr%) he made last year will likely evaporate once he goes back to a long-relief role and his middling rates are just not enough to offset the headache known as Alfredo Aceves on a team already deep in long-relievers.

 

I was honestly shocked they tendered him a contract.

 

You're completely ignoring the fact that despite all his allsholishness, he's pretty good at his job. He shouldn't be just given away, that's just silly. We may still need him to make several starts this season.



#8 Dogman2


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:32 PM

You're completely ignoring the fact that despite all his allsholishness, he's pretty good at his job. He shouldn't be just given away, that's just silly. We may still need him to make several starts this season.

 

 

Which job was he pretty good at last season? 84 innings of 1.3 whip, 5.36 ERA, 2.90 BABIP.



#9 dbn

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:33 PM

Aceves has a lot of value as a long man and spot starter.  If he won't embrace that role, IMO, he has negative value due to his attitude issues.



#10 Rasputin


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:49 PM

Which job was he pretty good at last season? 84 innings of 1.3 whip, 5.36 ERA, 2.90 BABIP.

 

He's good in a swing man role. He can pitch multiple innings multiple times a week. When you need a spot start he's a decent bet to give your five or six decent innings.


Edited by Rasputin, 17 February 2013 - 06:54 PM.


#11 Dogman2


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:59 PM

Do you hate me or are you really that stupid?

 

He's good in a swing man role. He can pitch multiple innings multiple times a week. When you need a spot start he's a decent bet to give your five or six decent innings

 

 

Is this necessary?  

 

His numbers last season suggest he wasn't good at his job.  His numbers the previous season suggest his performance was due to an unsustainable BABIP.  We all saw what happened when that normalized.  

 

So, yes, he may be able to pitch in the swing role, multiple times a week or spot start.  But if his numbers are anywhere close to what he did last season and he is his normal asshole self, there will be someone much, much better suited for that role.


Edited by Dogman2, 17 February 2013 - 07:01 PM.


#12 Red(s)HawksFan


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:07 PM

So, yes, he may be able to pitch in the swing role, multiple times a week or spot start.  But if his numbers are anywhere close to what he did last season and he is his normal asshole self, there will be someone much, much better suited for that role.

 

At the top of that list would be Morales and Mortensen, I would think.  Both of whom have no options so can't be stashed in order to give Aceves a bit of rope in the role.  If Aceves wants any chance to stay on this team, he needs to toe the line and perform better than those guys while he's in camp.  Of course, maybe his hope is to be DFA and ultimately given an outright release rather than possibly being shipped somewhere he doesn't want to go.



#13 Toe Nash

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:09 PM

You're completely ignoring the fact that despite all his allsholishness, he's pretty good at his job. He shouldn't be just given away, that's just silly. We may still need him to make several starts this season.

I'm with Czar. He had a nice run in 2011 that wasn't held up by his periphs (high strand rate, low BABIP, low HR%). We talked about it a lot last offseason. Last year he was an utter disaster on the field and had multiple attitude issues, including being suspended by the team when he wasn't chosen for a save situation and yelled at by Dustin Pedroia (the model for leadership and character, so we're told). Sure everyone hated Valentine but they didn't let it get to them as much as he did. This was after they made him the closer because that's what he wanted (remember "Trust"?). 

 

On the current roster Morales is a much better choice for 6th starter and the rest of the bullpen is already crowded. He's not lefthanded and he's not dominant in short stints. In 1973 with a 10-man staff he'd have a lot of value soaking up low-leverage innings but with 7 guys in the pen you're already juggling things a lot to get everyone work. If they have a disaster like September 2011 where no starter could go 6 IP he could help but they'd have bigger problems. 

 

Certainly he may have value as a swingman if used well as he showed in 2011. That's great when he made the minimum and could be optioned. But now he costs $2.65 mil and he is at best a head case and at worst his attitude could be detrimental to the new focus on character the Sox are supposed to have. I don't understand why he's been given so many chances already.



#14 Jordu

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:29 PM

I'm with Ras. Look at his numbers -- 2012 was the aberration. He's a valuable reliever, especially in long relief.

That said, he may Manny his way right out of town before Easter, but I see absolutely no reason to DFA a guy who, once he gets to the mound, can get the job done.

If he had to be run our of town, at least get something in a trade.

#15 Rasputin


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:35 PM

I'm with Ras. Look at his numbers -- 2012 was the aberration. He's a valuable reliever, especially in long relief.

That said, he may Manny his way right out of town before Easter, but I see absolutely no reason to DFA a guy who, once he gets to the mound, can get the job done.

If he had to be run our of town, at least get something in a trade.

 

I don't know about most people, but I'm still assuming Salty gets traded soon. A package of Salty, Aceves, and Miller would, it seems, have a fair amount of value for someone to bring back either first base depth or starting pitching depth while having relatively little impact on the near term future and staying in line with the long term vision.



#16 czar


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:35 PM

I'm with Ras. Look at his numbers -- 2012 was the aberration. He's a valuable reliever, especially in long relief.

That said, he may Manny his way right out of town before Easter, but I see absolutely no reason to DFA a guy who, once he gets to the mound, can get the job done.

If he had to be run our of town, at least get something in a trade.

 

No, the BABIP was the aberration.

 

Aceves has never been a good pitcher. Year-after-year, he has put up below-average K% and BB% for a relief pitcher. His only tangible value is his rubber arm (he appears to be more useful than your average RP arm in situations like 4 IP, day off, 3 IP, etc.), but if he's going to be obnoxious and run around thinking he is better than he really is, that aspect gets offset really quickly. He averages about 0.5 WAR per year. He's not hard to replace.

 

For people that go "eh, to hell with peripherals, what he does ON THE FIELD is what matters!," Aceves had -2.55 WPA last year. On average, by Aceves merely walking through an open bullpen door, the Sox were immediately less likely to win a game.


Edited by czar, 17 February 2013 - 07:39 PM.


#17 Dogman2


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:40 PM


I removed that which you questioned because I deemed it wasn't, but for fuck's sake, look at the whole picture.

 

Here is Alfredo Aceves' page at bbref.

 

Suggesting that his numbers last year indicate he's not good at his job rather indicates that you think he was doing that job last year. He wasn't. You should know this. You should also be able to look at something like baseball reference and look at what he's done in the past for multiple seasons.

 

In short, don't get snippy with me for interrupting your trolling.

 

 

 

 

 

I think you are the one not looking at the whole picture.  You are basing all of Aceves 'value' on what he did in 2011.  This is completely foolhardy.  It's what I expect from you given your silly late June declaration that 100 wins wasn't out of the question and all of your other really inane ramblings about how good the team is if they all have career years.  

 

Last years numbers indicate he was not good at his job.  His 2011 numbers indicate he would not be able to sustain or repeat that performance.  We saw this in 2012.  So, your statement that he is pretty good at his job is very questionable.  Further, his asshole behavior has already gotten him tossed from one team and, based on last year and so far this spring, he isn't looking like a mature pitcher with a future here.  So, his 'value' will be tied to his performance as a whole and that whole performance isn't looking valuable.

 

So, I'm not trolling at all.  I disagree completely with your absolute platitudes that he has a lot of 'value' when there are at least 2 others that will likely outperform and not be an asshole already on this team.  

 

It's funny that you are calling me snippy when you respond with personal attacks and really questionable statements.  



#18 JohntheBaptist


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:50 PM

I actually can't believe Rasputin thinks that is trolling.  I actually can't believe anyone would have an ego big enough to write a post like that in earnest, but that's our Ras!  Why can't we all just see?

 

Ultimately it really is subjective--we have a good idea of Aceves fairly pedestrian contributions, but the question is, when does the headache make that expendable?  Of course if he keeps pushing it, that day will arrive, especially if he's destroying his own value.  /trollin'



#19 Rasputin


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:52 PM

No, the BABIP was the aberration.

 

Aceves has never been a good pitcher. Year-after-year, he has put up below-average K% and BB% for a relief pitcher. His only tangible value is his rubber arm (he appears to be more useful than your average RP arm in situations like 4 IP, day off, 3 IP, etc.), but if he's going to be obnoxious and run around thinking he is better than he really is, that aspect gets offset really quickly. He averages about 0.5 WAR per year. He's not hard to replace.

 

For people that go "eh, to hell with peripherals, what he does ON THE FIELD is what matters!," Aceves had -2.55 WPA last year. On average, by Aceves merely walking through an open bullpen door, the Sox were immediately less likely to win a game.

 

He's not supposed to be an average relief pitcher. "Relief pitcher" includes closers and set up men and relief aces. Nobody thinks he's that good with the possible exception of Aceves himself and that clown that managed the team last year.

 

His WPA is aggravated by the fact that he was used in late game situations he wasn't suited for. We should all know that.

 

I mean, the upside of the position is to be not terrible. If you have someone in the position who is better than just being not terrible, chances are your rotation is really outstanding and he's a young guy who is out of options. We're talking the 7th man in the bullpen, the 12th man on the staff and the 24th or 25th man on the roster. 


Edited by Rasputin, 17 February 2013 - 11:13 PM.


#20 Rasputin


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:56 PM

I actually can't believe Rasputin thinks that is trolling.  I actually can't believe anyone would have an ego big enough to write a post like that in earnest, but that's our Ras!  Why can't we all just see?

 

Ultimately it really is subjective--we have a good idea of Aceves fairly pedestrian contributions, but the question is, when does the headache make that expendable?  Of course if he keeps pushing it, that day will arrive, especially if he's destroying his own value.  /trollin'

 

Someone's unwillingness to look beyond the most pathetically shallow "analysis" of anything has very little to do with my ego. I rather suspect that you can't see because you can't be bothered to look, and it's rather tiresome dealing with that all the time.



#21 Dogman2


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:02 PM

He's not supposed to be an average relief pitcher. "Relief pitcher" includes closers and set up men and relief aces. Nobody thinks he's that good with the possible exception of Aceves himself and that clown that managed the team last year.

 

His WPA is aggravated by the fact that he was used in late game situations he wasn't suited for. We should all know that.

 

I mean, the upside of the position is to be not terrible. If you have someone in the position who is better than just being not terrible, chances are your rotation is really outstanding and he's a young guy who is out of options. We're talking the 7th man in the bullpen, the 12th man on the staff and the 39th or 40th man on the roster. 

 

 

So, your argument is that if he is used similar to his 2011 season, a role you claim he is suited for, he won't be absolutely terrible?  What are you basing this on? 

 

Again, as a long man (7th starter, 12th man, whatever) I want something far better than what he put up last season.  I'm sure the team wants someone who performs better and isn't an asshole.  There is plenty of evidence that the team has, as others note, 2 others that will probably outperform and not be an asshole. 

 

In short, you are saying he was used wrong last season and his 2011 numbers are a closer indicator of his value.  Gotcha.



#22 Dogman2


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:04 PM

Someone's unwillingness to look beyond the most pathetically shallow "analysis" of anything has very little to do with my ego. I rather suspect that you can't see because you can't be bothered to look, and it's rather tiresome dealing with that all the time.

 

Enough with your pathetic insinuations.  I'm not the one talking in absolutes and how everyone else is stupid and wrong. Look inward. 



#23 JohntheBaptist


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:05 PM

Someone's unwillingness to look beyond the most pathetically shallow "analysis" of anything has very little to do with my ego. I rather suspect that you can't see because you can't be bothered to look, and it's rather tiresome dealing with that all the time.

No, the (total lack of) substance of your response does though.  Someone's unwillingness, constantly and with every keystroke, to look outside their own declarations and to spew these admonishments out like anyone wants to read them here is much, much, much more tiring.  Talking to people who aren't on the same page as you like they're fucking idiots over and over and over gets old to read from someone who, as far as I can tell, has never really warranted it.

 

Here is a hint--you were advocating not giving a long reliever away, even if he warranted doing so, because he's "good at his job"--tremendously deep, to be sure.  What Dogman was doing was pointing out that you are doing what you often do--glossing over reality in service of your declarations.  He actually wasn't very good at his job last year, and no, I'm sorry, wiggling around "his job" doesn't work.  And read the thread--there's certainly reason to believe his performance could continue down that path.

 

edit-clarity


Edited by JohntheBaptist, 17 February 2013 - 08:08 PM.


#24 URI


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:13 PM

Gumdrops and handjobs in the face of evidence to the contrary gets tiring too.

 

Move on guys.  Argue the merits of argument, not accusing others of trolling, or pointing out that another poster thinks everyone else is stupid.



#25 Montana Fan


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 09:23 PM

Working on his Eephus pitch?

#26 Pumpsie


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 09:26 PM


I was honestly shocked they tendered him a contract.

 

So was I.  During the offseason, the Sox worked overtime to clean out the roster of malcontents and replace them with "character" guys.  But they kept the biggest headcase they had.  It would be one thing if Aceves were irreplaceable...but he isn't.  Anyway, Farrell has his first challenge of the Spring to sort out and we haven't played a game yet. 



#27 Dogman2


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 09:48 PM

So was I.  During the offseason, the Sox worked overtime to clean out the roster of malcontents and replace them with "character" guys.  But they kept the biggest headcase they had.  It would be one thing if Aceves were irreplaceable...but he isn't.  Anyway, Farrell has his first challenge of the Spring to sort out and we haven't played a game yet. 

 

 

And that, to me, is the most worrisome.  If the team attempts to trade him in the spring, other teams will know that the Sox are just trying to dump him based on his character flaws.  No team is gonna offer anything of value for him, especially since his 2012 numbers were very, very bad.  

 

I'm hoping for Morales and Mortenson play well this spring and Aceves is gone.



#28 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 09:52 PM

I don't know about most people, but I'm still assuming Salty gets traded soon. 

 

I think the news about Napoli's hip changed everything. Having multiple options to back up or fill in at 1B has become crucial. Salty is not a good enough hitter to be a viable starter at 1B, but the fact that he has experience playing there and could fill in there in a pinch adds hugely to his value to us right now. That, plus the fact that Lavarnway really didn't look quite ready last year, which makes starting him in Pawtucket a logical move in its own right.

 

At the very least, I don't think they're going to want to trade Salty until they're sure they're comfortable giving a 25-man slot to Overbay. 



#29 Papelbon's Poutine


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 10:13 PM

If they're going to sell us on good character clubhouse guys, the. I have to ask why he's still on the team. He's a decent asset but not at the level to put up with this shit IMHO.

#30 Rough Carrigan


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 10:39 PM

So was I.  During the offseason, the Sox worked overtime to clean out the roster of malcontents and replace them with "character" guys.  But they kept the biggest headcase they had.  It would be one thing if Aceves were irreplaceable...but he isn't.  Anyway, Farrell has his first challenge of the Spring to sort out and we haven't played a game yet. 

Yes, but maybe the team knows more about what was going on behind the scenes.  He clashed almost directly with Bobby the Fifth and isn't it possible that they put more of the blame for this clash on Bobby?  There were a couple times where Bobby used him in an almost punitive fashion. 

 

I wouldn't give the guy away.  He was a valuable pitcher used the way he was in 2011.  I still like him for the good expressions of his honey badger-ish don't give a shit attitude. 



#31 yecul


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 10:50 PM

Frankly his effectiveness or lack thereof is completely irrelevant to me. Whether you see 2011 as the reality -- a long man extraordinaire -- or 2012 is your bag and he's overrates... who gives a shit?

 

This franchise has gone through enough bullshit. A season meltdown. Drama abound. Front office, managerial, players... have we not had our fill of jackasses yet?

 

Let's pretend that Aceves sucks. Blows. Overrated. Why would you keep him? This is a slam dunk.

Now let's pretend that Aceves is an awesome swing man. He will preserve those 5 run losses and nail down those last few innings off a killer 10 run win. He fills in with 4-5 innings when you need it.  All in helping to lead the club to a nice rebound .500 season. Why would you keep him? 

 

There is zero risk unless he remains on the roster.



#32 Rasputin


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 11:17 PM

So, your argument is that if he is used similar to his 2011 season, a role you claim he is suited for, he won't be absolutely terrible?  What are you basing this on? 

 

Again, as a long man (7th starter, 12th man, whatever) I want something far better than what he put up last season.  I'm sure the team wants someone who performs better and isn't an asshole.  There is plenty of evidence that the team has, as others note, 2 others that will probably outperform and not be an asshole. 

 

In short, you are saying he was used wrong last season and his 2011 numbers are a closer indicator of his value.  Gotcha.

 

Everyone wants something better than what he put up in 2012, including, I am sure, him. And yes, I think if used in the role he's suited for, he'll be pretty good and I base that on the entire rest of his career.

 

In that role, he's a lot better than a lot of the drek that a lot of teams have and as such, you shouldn't just give him away.



#33 Rasputin


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Posted 17 February 2013 - 11:28 PM

I think the news about Napoli's hip changed everything. Having multiple options to back up or fill in at 1B has become crucial. Salty is not a good enough hitter to be a viable starter at 1B, but the fact that he has experience playing there and could fill in there in a pinch adds hugely to his value to us right now. That, plus the fact that Lavarnway really didn't look quite ready last year, which makes starting him in Pawtucket a logical move in its own right.

 

At the very least, I don't think they're going to want to trade Salty until they're sure they're comfortable giving a 25-man slot to Overbay. 

 

Could be, but Salty has played a total of 40 games at first in his career, and 38 of them were in 2007. If anything happens to Napoli, you can't just stick Salty in there for a week. You'd be better off sticking Papi in there for a week. Perhaps more to the point, the team clearly made an effort to get more grinder heavy, emphasizing on base percentage more. That's not Salty's strength.

 

I still think we're going to see Salty, one of the lefty relievers, and probably another reliever traded and I think a lot of how it all breaks out will depend on Daniel Bard.



#34 pjheff

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:38 AM

If they're going to sell us on good character clubhouse guys, the. I have to ask why he's still on the team. He's a decent asset but not at the level to put up with this shit IMHO.


This team didn't lose the last two seasons due to bad character. It lost, as Cherington has acknowledged, because of a lack of pitching depth. There's simply no reason not to bring the guy back when he's had some success -- you can debate how much -- and can be had on short money. His versatility and rubber arm do have value to a staff, making him a useful piece for long / swing work. And maybe I'm being alarmist, but the fact that Doubront was already considered an injury risk, after his innings increase last season, and then showed up out of shape, as he did when he got injured two years ago, would make me hesitant to dispatch any arm we might need, especially if it's only for screwing around on a back field in February.

#35 sachilles


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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:50 AM

It seems like folks are reading too much into this. I'd be content to see him off the RS roster, but I don't think this "incident" is anything significant. He lobbed 15 balls in. Someone visited the mound and he then got with the program. Feels a bit like a manufactured story. I fear this is going to be a lot of this garbage this season unless the team can get off to a solid drama free start.



#36 Toe Nash

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:08 AM

Everyone wants something better than what he put up in 2012, including, I am sure, him. And yes, I think if used in the role he's suited for, he'll be pretty good and I base that on the entire rest of his career.

 

In that role, he's a lot better than a lot of the drek that a lot of teams have and as such, you shouldn't just give him away.

Bradford has an article up today and says there is no trade market for him considering his salary (maybe a good reason not to tender him a contract in the first place, but here we are). He also says that Aceves acted up under Francona as well (and we can probably assume he did as a Yankee too):

 

While much had been made about Aceves’ toxic relationship with Valentine, things weren’t always smooth with the previous manager, Terry Francona, either. Francona just did a better job of keeping any conflict under wraps, with incidents like when the time the team left the pitcher behind on a trip to New York because of tardiness out of the public eye.

 

However, Speier notes that they could simply cut him (if no one picked him up on waivers) and save his salary citing a character clause in the CBA. The union would file a grievance and it's not clear who would win -- the precedent for the loss of salary being upheld have been in far more serious incidents, like when Shawn Chacon assaulted Ed Wade.

 

 

 

It seems like folks are reading too much into this. I'd be content to see him off the RS roster, but I don't think this "incident" is anything significant. He lobbed 15 balls in. Someone visited the mound and he then got with the program. Feels a bit like a manufactured story. I fear this is going to be a lot of this garbage this season unless the team can get off to a solid drama free start.

 

This is a story because Aceves has a long history of at best having a screw loose and at worst being insolent, with now four different managers on two teams. If Lester had done this it probably wouldn't have been a big deal as we'd assume he was just joking around.



#37 j44thor

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:10 AM

For people surprised that the Sox brought back Aceves lets not forget that they had to make that decision prior to acquiring Hanrahan.  The pen was far from a strength before that trade so it made perfect sense to bring back a serviceable arm especially considering the volatility with the position.

 

After the Hanrahan trade he is not nearly as important and likely is on the short list of DFA candidates.  



#38 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:18 AM

If anything, they should have considered going to arbitration with Aceves, which would have given them the potential opportunity to cut him and only be on the hook for a portion of his salary (since there's a reasonable chance he's not good enough to make the club, even forgetting the character stuff). He was a great guy to have around when he was making $1M or less, now that he's up over $2.5M he seems a lot more expendable. Then again, the Sox were supposedly flush with cash, and it's just money. Kind of reminds me of the year they picked up Tavarez's option, and got zero value from it.

 

Wonder if there's an OF / 1B candidate making similar money who they could flip him for. To the Mariners for Carp?


Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 18 February 2013 - 09:20 AM.


#39 TheoShmeo


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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:37 AM

It seems like folks are reading too much into this. I'd be content to see him off the RS roster, but I don't think this "incident" is anything significant. He lobbed 15 balls in. Someone visited the mound and he then got with the program. Feels a bit like a manufactured story. I fear this is going to be a lot of this garbage this season unless the team can get off to a solid drama free start.

I agree that in and of itself, this incident was not a big deal.  It was odd, and somewhat insubordinate, but still something that could be smoothed over.  But if viewed in the context of some of the crap he pulled last season, it looks a little less benign.  And when the Sox are starting anew, or trying to, having a guy who is seemingly on the bubble in the first place acting out puts a finer point on his actions.

 

If I were in Ben and John's shoes, I'd only keep Aceves if I was completely convinced that he added an element that I would not otherwise have.  And even there, I'd make sure he understood that he'd used up all of his chits. 



#40 wade boggs chicken dinner


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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:39 AM

So, your argument is that if he is used similar to his 2011 season, a role you claim he is suited for, he won't be absolutely terrible?  What are you basing this on? 

 

Again, as a long man (7th starter, 12th man, whatever) I want something far better than what he put up last season.  I'm sure the team wants someone who performs better and isn't an asshole.  There is plenty of evidence that the team has, as others note, 2 others that will probably outperform and not be an asshole.

 

Was Ras is trying to say, in his own, umm, inimitable fashion, is that if Aceves was a choirboy, I don't there would be any debate that he would make the team.  There is a fair amount of value in having someone on your staff who can pitch multiple innings a game on multiple days of the week - particularly if the team has doubts about its starting pitching.  Fangraphs did an article last year - http://www.fangraphs...rioles-bullpen/ - about how the Orioles saved their best guys for their highest leverage situations and ran everyone else through in low-leverage situations.  Having one guy who can do this would certainly help the bullpen, and without looking it up, my sense is that in this day and age of specialization, there are not that many guys who can do this and Aceves has been able to do this as well as most. 

 

Given the fact that he can seemingly throw in a spot start on short notice, he is certainly valuable.


Whether that value exceeds the headaches of his temperment is not something I can answer.  Hopefully Farrell can manage him well enough that this won't be a question.



#41 MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:45 AM

Which of these pitchers will Aceves beat out? Assuming five starters and seven relievers, he has to beat out 3:

 

Jon Lester (no)

Clay Buchholz (no)

Ryan Dempster (no)

Felix Doubront (maybe)

John Lackey (no)

 

Andrew Bailey (no)

Daniel Bard (maybe)

Craig Breslow (no)

Joel Hanrahan (no)

Andrew Miller (no)

Franklin Morales (maybe)

Clay Mortensen (maybe)

Junichi Tazawa (no)

Koji Uehara (no)

 

So he has to beat out Bard, Morales, and Mortensen to be the seventh man on the relief staff or beat out Morales and Doubront to be the fifth starter. And that assumes that Alex Wilson, Allen Webster, Rubby de la Rosa, Seven Wright and Drake Britton are all definitely in the minors to start the season and not as good as Aceves a the moment.

 

Morales is lefthanded. Mortensen also has a rubber arm and isn't a dick. Bard is one year removed from being one of the five most dominant 8th inning guys in the league. Doubront might actually be the weakest link if he's out of shape, but he still struck out 167 in 161 innings last year and guys with >9k9 don't grow on trees.

 

I think Aceves has a very hard time making the team. If he recognizes that, maybe he gets his shit together and pitches great and we've got a good problem on our hands. If he doesn't, who cares, and sayonara.  


Edited by MyDaughterLovesTomGordon, 18 February 2013 - 09:46 AM.


#42 pjr

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:21 AM

Michael Giardi@MikeGiardi

Guess who showed up in Fort Myers? The agent for Alfredo Aceves. First reported by @nickcafardo #redsoxtalk



#43 redsoxstiff


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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:28 AM

In the most tradition bound sport...Aceves was an asshole when Bobby V came out to the mound...This is a public and egregious shit slinging ...No need to look further...Bye,bye mister Mexican pie...

#44 pjheff

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:46 AM

So he has to beat out Bard, Morales, and Mortensen to be the seventh man on the relief staff or beat out Morales and Doubront to be the fifth starter. And that assumes that Alex Wilson, Allen Webster, Rubby de la Rosa, Seven Wright and Drake Britton are all definitely in the minors to start the season and not as good as Aceves 


And that assumes that Doubront's shoulder isn't a problem, that Buchholz doesn't tweak a hamstring, that Uehara's forearm tightness wasn't a precursor to a Tommy John, that Bailey doesn't have a collision at 1B and that Paxton Crawford doesn't fall out of bed on a glass. Yes, the Red Sox appear to have enough depth of pitching on paper in the middle of February potentially to render Alfredo Aceves expendable. No, I'm not confident that such will be the case on the field in New York come April 1st.

#45 MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

I'm not saying we should cut him right now - I don't think anyone is. I'm saying I think it's unlikely he goes north with the team, and when the roster has to be cut to 25, he won't make it. So all the hand-wringing about his behavior might well be beside the point and coddling him not worth the effort.

 

Also, where did you see the Uehara forearm tightness? It was a shoulder that kept him out last year. Is there something new in camp this year or are you just throwing stuff out there?



#46 Plympton91


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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:41 PM

It seems like focusing on just 2011 and 2012, and looking at 2011 without controlling for the starter/reliever splits, is missing the fact that Aceves was also a good swingman in a material sample of innings in 2009 as well.  When evaluating what to expect from him in a middle relief role in 2013, I don't know why you'd look at anything other than his career numbers in relief.  A set of those numbers include: 276 IP, 30 HR, 218 K / 81 BB, 3.45 ERA, .246 BAbip. 



#47 pjheff

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 01:42 PM

I'm not saying we should cut him right now - I don't think anyone is. I'm saying I think it's unlikely he goes north with the team, and when the roster has to be cut to 25, he won't make it. So all the hand-wringing about his behavior might well be beside the point and coddling him not worth the effort.
 
Also, where did you see the Uehara forearm tightness? It was a shoulder that kept him out last year. Is there something new in camp this year or are you just throwing stuff out there?


I do think people are saying we should cut him right now, like Buckely in today's Herald, while others are bemoaning the fact that we resigned him this offseason. Unlike you, I do expect Aceves to go north with the team as he has a role and I expect some attrition due to injury. As for Uehara, I was referring back to his earlier bouts of tendinitis and forearm tightness while with the Orioles but generally suggesting, as with my Paxton Crawford reference, that unexpected things happen.

#48 wutang112878


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Posted 18 February 2013 - 01:51 PM

Which of these pitchers will Aceves beat out? Assuming five starters and seven relievers, he has to beat out 3:

 

Morales is lefthanded. Mortensen also has a rubber arm and isn't a dick. Bard is one year removed from being one of the five most dominant 8th inning guys in the league. Doubront might actually be the weakest link if he's out of shape, but he still struck out 167 in 161 innings last year and guys with >9k9 don't grow on trees.

 

 

Great job on the breakdown of the situation, I think it probably comes down to Aceves and Mortensen.  Going into the year we have 3 starters who might not always give you 6 innings in Lackey [surgery], Dempster [age/injury history], Dubrount [might be out of shape], and Bard who could implode at any time.  Given that, its a requirement, IMO,  to have a rubber arm guy in the bullpen at all times. 

 

Putting his actual performance aside for a second, there is a lot of value in Aceves just as a 'mop up' guy, for those stretches where having him out there saves the rest of the staff a lot of wear and tear.  Like last year, May 19th to the 30th, in 12 calendar days he pitched 8 times and 8.2 innings.  Or say, Aug 28th to Sep 1st, 5 calendar days and 7.2 innings.  To me the question becomes, do they think Mortensen can do that, or do you go with the Aceves knowing he can do it warts and all.  I am not suggesting we give Aceves a pass for lackluster results, but there are a finite amount of guys in the league that can pitch at this frequency at any time, so in that regard he is an unique asset.



#49 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 18 February 2013 - 02:13 PM

Hanrahan: $7.0

Uehara: $4.3

Bailey: $4.1

Aceves: $2.7

Breslow: $2.3

Bard: $1.9

Morales: $1.5

Miller: $1.5

 

That's 8 relievers who are on the books for over $25M. That's not including Tazawa, and the out of options Mortensen. I know injuries happen, but there seems to be a lot of redundancy here (why not Bailey or Uehara, Miller or Breslow?.) Hopefully they are able to turn some of these guys into players that better serve the teams needs.



#50 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:52 PM

That's 8 relievers who are on the books for over $25M.

 

And our starters will cost just over $45M. Since relievers pitch about a third of the innings in a typical season, that seems about right (especially if, as many of us suspect, Aceves will be gone before the season starts, pulling the total down to $22.6M). The Yankees' bullpen will cost them about $20M and is comparable in quality to ours, maybe not even as good. The Jays, O's and Rays will be paying much less for their bullpens, but if we had any one of those three pens we'd be screaming about how thin it was.

You get what you pay for.






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