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Matt Cooke severely injures another player.


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#1 scotian1


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:02 AM

Last night, Matt Cooke sliced the achilles tendon of Norris Trophy winner Erik Karlsson ending his season Cooke claims it was accidental and the NHL agrees. There will be no discipline. Is Cooke just reckless or is there cause to question this play. Sadly the play should have been stopped seconds before as the puck went out of play and the officials missed it.
Here is the play.
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Edited by scotian1, 15 February 2013 - 02:53 PM.


#2 TheShynessClinic


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:16 AM

This was absolutely a freak injury. I hate Cooke as much as anyone, but there's no way he intentionally did this.



#3 SawxSince67

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:31 AM

Milbury and Jones spent a few minutes on that video during 2nd intermission last night. Milbury essentially said because it was Cooke and due to his past, people will be suspicious. But this was an entirely accidental incident. I don 't recall seeing such an injury due to battling for position and puck against the boards, but it happened. Hope it isn't the Achilles.
Edit: poor reading comprehension

Edited by SawxSince67, 14 February 2013 - 09:26 AM.


#4 johnmd20


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:33 AM

Oh man, watching that is very difficult. I'm not sure if it was intentional or not but I certainly didn't like the look of the foot going up and into Karlsson's leg. That is a weird way to skate into the boards.



#5 RoyalOrange

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:41 AM

Milbury and Jones spent a few minutes on that video during 2nd intermission last night. Milbury essentially said because it was Cooke and due to his past, people will be suspicious. But this was an entirely accidental incident. I don 't recall seeing such an injury due to battling for position and puck against the boards, but it happened. Hope it isn't the Achilles.

 

They reported it was his Achilles already. Surgery coming.



#6 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:13 AM

That looks like an unfortunate freak play to me.

 

I'd still ban Cooke from the NHL for life, just to cover all my bases, of course.



#7 BigMike


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:18 AM

Could be accidental,  but how do you give Cooke the benefit of teh doubt.  He is an absolute scumbag



#8 Spaulding Smails


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:20 AM

Any sort of incident with skates are frightening but yeah its just a freak accident.  Hope Karlsson has a full recovery, he is a extremely talented kid.



#9 cshea


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:28 AM

Seemed like a flukey play to me. Chuck Kobasew sliced Robert Lang's Achilles in similar fashion a few years ago. They got tangled up near the boards and Kobasew stepped on the back of Lang's leg.

#10 kenneycb


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:56 AM

Could be accidental,  but how do you give Cooke the benefit of teh doubt.  He is an absolute scumbag

Because it's pretty difficult to do intentionally, not to mention when you're off balance, going into the boards and looking down at the puck.



#11 TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:22 AM

It look liked he was just trying to pin Karlsson to the boards by getting his skates outside of Karlsson's on either side but ended up stepping on Karlsson instead.

 

Still, fuck Matt Cooke.



#12 Greg29fan


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:29 AM

Could be accidental,  but how do you give Cooke the benefit of teh doubt.  He is an absolute scumbag

 

Because he hasn't done anything remotely "dirty" since the Ryan McDonagh hit that he got suspended for 2 years ago.  He'll never make up for the Savard hit or for some of the other dirty things he did, but he's been the model for what appropriate and severe supplemental discipline can do if a guy is willing to learn from it.  I feel bad for Erik Karlsson; he's a hell of a player and I hope that he comes back with no ill effects, but this was a total accident.



#13 cshea


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:39 AM

"Model of what supplementary discipline can do"

Only took (atleast) 4 suspensions and 1 career ended to get him to change.

#14 seantoo


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:47 AM

"Model of what supplementary discipline can do"

Only took (atleast) 4 suspensions and 1 career ended to get him to change.

And a few suspensions that should have happened to



#15 Greg29fan


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:48 AM

and he'd never had a suspension like the one he got for the McDonagh hit where he missed the remainder of the Penguins season (17 games).  I keep saying, suspend these guys for a real extended period of time (no salary adds up quick, as does seeing your team out there w/o you) and they'll get the message.  Bertuzzi got a huge suspension for the Steve Moore hit, and you've never heard or seen him do something wrong again.



#16 krobe

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:56 AM

an AP photographer caught the reverse angle

 

 

AP822119145343.jpg



#17 scotian1


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 12:14 PM

Chris Neil took out revenge on Cooke's face later in the game. Cooke could not turtle up fast enough.

Edited by scotian1, 14 February 2013 - 12:19 PM.


#18 Harry Hooper


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

It doesn't look so accidental to me. Even if there's no intent to injure there, that skate is awfully high off the ice surface. Players should be responsible for their skates as well as their stick. Catching someone in the face with a stick, even accidentally, generates a penalty call. Should be the same here.



#19 ForceAtHome

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 12:35 PM

Chris Neil took out revenge on Cooke's face later in the game. Cooke could not turtle up fast enough.

 

I don't blame Cooke for not wanting any part of Neil. He's giving up a lot of size and fighting experience there and since it was purely accidental, he doesn't need to own up to anything. I think Neil looks worse in that sequence, to be honest.

 

 

It doesn't look so accidental to me. Even if there's no intent to injure there, that skate is awfully high off the ice surface. Players should be responsible for their skates as well as their stick. Catching someone in the face with a stick, even accidentally, generates a penalty call. Should be the same here.

 

Cooke's skate doesn't really even come up that high. This is a simple case of the two players were jostling, Cooke's leg comes up as a balance thing, and he regains his balance but unfortunately his skate lands on Karlsson's ankle. I don't have anything in mind since this kind of play is generally so harmless and therefore there's no reason for it to stand out, but take a look at some NHL hits from January of this year. Watch the legs of players in collisions and notice how dangerous they could be if they struck the right area. This happens a lot more than you probably think, just without the unfortunate ending.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SVXGqLmogk


Edited by ForceAtHome, 14 February 2013 - 12:42 PM.


#20 Harry Hooper


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:03 PM


 

Cooke's skate doesn't really even come up that high. This is a simple case of the two players were jostling, Cooke's leg comes up as a balance thing, and he regains his balance but unfortunately his skate lands on Karlsson's ankle. I don't have anything in mind since this kind of play is generally so harmless and therefore there's no reason for it to stand out, but take a look at some NHL hits from January of this year. Watch the legs of players in collisions and notice how dangerous they could be if they struck the right area. This happens a lot more than you probably think, just without the unfortunate ending.

 

 

I am not talking about where the limbs fly after a major collision. Yes, that can end up as very dangerous if people are just in the wrong spots. That's an unavoidable risk as long as there's checking.



#21 AMcGhie


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:06 PM

Neil gets an automatic game for instigator in the last 5, right?



#22 ForceAtHome

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:07 PM

I am not talking about where the limbs fly after a major collision. Yes, that can end up as very dangerous if people are just in the wrong spots. That's an unavoidable risk as long as there's checking.

 

The larger point remains: this is a totally normal collision that happens regularly in hockey. I've been a part of these balance-losing jostles hundreds of times on the boards. There was nothing there that stinks of malice, premeditation, or aggression.



#23 cshea


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:12 PM

Neil gets an automatic game for instigator in the last 5, right?


No, because it wasn't a fighting major. He got a double minor for roughing and a 10 minute misconduct.

#24 cshea


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:18 PM

Back to Karlsson. I've read a lot about the availability of Kevlar socks. From what I've read, it seems like there is no downside to wearing them, so I don't see any reason why they can't be required. The Karlsson injury is a 1 in a million type thing, but it seems like it could easily be avoided if players had to wear those socks.

#25 AMcGhie


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:28 PM

No, because it wasn't a fighting major. He got a double minor for roughing and a 10 minute misconduct.

 

Do the refs have leeway on the call? Can you only get a fighting call if you take your gloves off?  



#26 scotian1


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:30 PM

 

Back to Karlsson. I've read a lot about the availability of Kevlar socks. From what I've read, it seems like there is no downside to wearing them, so I don't see any reason why they can't be required. The Karlsson injury is a 1 in a million type thing, but it seems like it could easily be avoided if players had to wear those socks.

 
Makes total sense, hard to believe all players don't wear them.

#27 Harry Hooper


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:36 PM

The larger point remains: this is a totally normal collision that happens regularly in hockey. I've been a part of these balance-losing jostles hundreds of times on the boards. There was nothing there that stinks of malice, premeditation, or aggression.

 

I just don't see a balance thing there. Cooke deliberately raised his foot/leg up off the ice as part of his attempt to goose Karlsson into the boards. Yes, it happens, but it should be actively discouraged.



#28 cshea


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:37 PM

 
Do the refs have leeway on the call? Can you only get a fighting call if you take your gloves off?  


Sure, they could've given him a fighting major if they wanted to. I didn't think it warranted one. 4 and 10 seemed appropriate for what Neil did.

#29 kenneycb


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:43 PM

I just don't see a balance thing there. Cooke deliberately raised his foot/leg up off the ice as part of his attempt to goose Karlsson into the boards. Yes, it happens, but it should be actively discouraged.

He raised his leg because Karlsson's arms went above his head and his body was falling back.  This is not a dangerous play at all and, if anything, it's because Karlsson wasn't strong on his stick.  Discouraging the lifting of sticks would just be incredibly dumb.


Edited by kenneycb, 14 February 2013 - 01:44 PM.


#30 kenneycb


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 02:20 PM

   
Makes total sense, hard to believe all players don't wear them.

It's more of a comfortability thing.  Some guys, for example, have played without socks since Squirts or Pee Wees and my guess is that they're not going to be putting these on for a very rare and infrequent event.  Not the best logic in the world but I imagine that's their thought process.



#31 ForceAtHome

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 02:58 PM

Back to Karlsson. I've read a lot about the availability of Kevlar socks. From what I've read, it seems like there is no downside to wearing them, so I don't see any reason why they can't be required. The Karlsson injury is a 1 in a million type thing, but it seems like it could easily be avoided if players had to wear those socks.

 

According to this article, Ovechkin, Beagle, and Fehr are the only Capitals players to wear Kevlar socks. Obviously, that's a pretty small percentage if that's representative of the entire league.

 

 

“I’ve been wearing them for probably three, four years I guess, pretty much when they came out.  I feel like they’re a regular sock but they’re more protective, so I don’t see a reason why I wouldn’t wear them,” Fehr said. “Some guys say they don’t like the feel but I don’t notice a difference.”

“I don’t know, maybe I’ll try it,” Backstrom said. “That would be great if you can prevent it.”


#32 Harry Hooper


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:18 PM

FWIW, Milbury was just on F+M and said it wasn't a normal hockey play by Cooke raising his leg up so high.



#33 The Four Peters


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:21 PM

FWIW, Milbury was just on F+M and said it wasn't a normal hockey play by Cooke raising his leg up so high.

I now feel even more confident in my opinion that it was a complete accident.



#34 ForceAtHome

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:32 PM

FWIW, Milbury was just on F+M and said it wasn't a normal hockey play by Cooke raising his leg up so high.

 

I'm legitimately curious -- have you played competitive hockey before? Because that kind of leg in the air happens pretty regularly in my experience, save for the freak injury.



#35 PedroSpecialK


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:36 PM

Milbury also defended Cooke on-air last night.

Weird

#36 NHbeau


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:39 PM

 I seriously wonder what some of you are watching in that video. I can't decide if he was trying to slew foot him, or trying to push his knee into the boards. I have no doubt Cooke didn't intend to cut his tendon simply because I doubt he's that smart or proactive in how he end's seasons or careers. That said he's a grade a piece of shit and I have zero doubt he was going in to those boards to hurt Karlsson just like he does every single night he lace's them up. 



#37 TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:40 PM

FWIW, Milbury was just on F+M and said it wasn't a normal hockey play by Cooke raising his leg up so high.

 

 

I now feel even more confident in my opinion that it was a complete accident.

 

 

Milbury also defended Cooke on-air last night.

Weird

So WIW = nada



#38 Spaulding Smails


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:42 PM

I'm legitimately curious -- have you played competitive hockey before? Because that kind of leg in the air happens pretty regularly in my experience, save for the freak injury.

 

Agreed, how does anyone expect you to keep both skates on the ice if you get knocked off balance?  I hate Cooke but I can't legitimately believe he had time to worry about where his skate was coming down.


Edited by Spaulding Smails, 14 February 2013 - 04:44 PM.


#39 Harry Hooper


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:24 PM

I was a shitty hockey player, but I loved hitting people on the ice. He's not the best I ever saw, but my favorite player all-time is Don Marcotte.

 

Cooke is very much on-balance, and his leg comes up because he's trying to lift Karlsson up into the boards. It's not a chance follow-through after a collision that brings his foot up or a case of him being knocked off-balance.



#40 Greg29fan


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:38 PM

 I have zero doubt he was going in to those boards to hurt Karlsson just like he does every single night he lace's them up. 

 

I know Matt Cooke is persona non grata on here and that's absolutely fine (this thread title for one thing is at least premature, Karlsson's career isn't "over" to my knowledge), but again he hasn't done anything dirty in 2+ years so to say he was going in specifically to hurt Karlsson is ridiculous.  It was a puck battle against the boards, like what happens at least a dozen times a game.



#41 The Four Peters


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:38 PM

His leg comes up because he goes to lift Karlsson's stick, Karlsson lets go and leans backwards, dropping his weight into Cooke. It looks pretty clear to me.

 

It also looks like he goes to brace himself with his leg against Karlsson as a result of being on one leg of his own, and it happened.



#42 Jettisoned

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:39 PM

Bryan Murray said that it was a 70% tear and that he had surgery this afternoon.  Maybe the fact that it wasn't completely severed is a good thing, but I am not a doctor.  IIRC a bunch of NHL players have come back from severed Achilles, most notably Teemu Selanne about 20 years ago, so it seems unlikely that Karlsson's career is over.



#43 scotian1


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:45 PM

Note that there was a question mark at the end of the topic. That being said Karlsson's major asset is his skating ability so I would say it is fair to think that there might be a significant impact to that strength. Wishing him all the best in his recovery.

#44 kenneycb


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:54 PM

His leg comes up because he goes to lift Karlsson's stick, Karlsson lets go and leans backwards, dropping his weight into Cooke. It looks pretty clear to me.

 

It also looks like he goes to brace himself with his leg against Karlsson as a result of being on one leg of his own, and it happened.

Adding onto the physics of this, when Karlsson leans back, Cooke's weight goes to the back of his skate, with the brunt of it being felt upon the back end of the skate that curves up into the holder.  Essentially it causes a reverse toe-pick, only this time with all your momentum going back instead of forward, thus generally causing both your legs to go up in the air.  Since Cooke is an NHL player, he has some semblance of balance and is able to catch himself before fully flailing and the end result is his blade coming down on Karlsson's leg instead of his skate going up into the Karlsson's balls/leg.

 

Oh, and major props to our resident Penguins fan for the picture of Cooke sharpening his skates in the General Game Thread last night.  Very well done.


Edited by kenneycb, 14 February 2013 - 05:55 PM.


#45 NHbeau


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:51 PM

I know Matt Cooke is persona non grata on here and that's absolutely fine (this thread title for one thing is at least premature, Karlsson's career isn't "over" to my knowledge), but again he hasn't done anything dirty in 2+ years so to say he was going in specifically to hurt Karlsson is ridiculous.  It was a puck battle against the boards, like what happens at least a dozen times a game.

 

 Really? See what I think is ridicules is looking at the laundry list of Cooke's victims and NOT thinking he is out there trying to hurt people on every shift. He is what he is at this point. Like I said I am in no way saying he went out there to cut an achilles. As someone who has played competitive hockey and still play's the game recreationaly Cooke is pulling a dick move with the intention to hurt. He know's just like I do that he has zero chance of beating Karlsson to that puck. None. Instead of making the smart move, getting perpendicular to the player and wiping him out of the play he tries to ride him into the boards, in what at full speed looks like either a slew foot gone wrong or he was aiming for the charlie horse by lifting his leg. Either way it's a wreckless play an 100% avoidable. I've driven plenty of people into the boards knowing I am beat to the puck to take them out of the play. Sure I have lifted my front skate to add a little hot sauce on the hit while powering off my back foot. I have never once come close to landing that foot down on another players leg though. When you try to bulldog a player into the boards when you know your beat for the puck instead of taking him out of the play it's pretty obvious why your doing it. Anytime you lift a stick while also lifting your leg up to another players knee from behind is a pretty obvious move also. 

 

 I'd also love if we could drop the "have you played" canard. It's meant to denigrate someones opinion and just makes it so only a select few are allowed to have an opinion of any weight. 



#46 mikeford


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:13 PM

Just as much Karlsson's fault for not wearing Kevlar socks.



#47 ForceAtHome

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:14 PM

 Really? See what I think is ridicules is looking at the laundry list of Cooke's victims and NOT thinking he is out there trying to hurt people on every shift. He is what he is at this point. Like I said I am in no way saying he went out there to cut an achilles. As someone who has played competitive hockey and still play's the game recreationaly Cooke is pulling a dick move with the intention to hurt. He know's just like I do that he has zero chance of beating Karlsson to that puck. None. Instead of making the smart move, getting perpendicular to the player and wiping him out of the play he tries to ride him into the boards, in what at full speed looks like either a slew foot gone wrong or he was aiming for the charlie horse by lifting his leg. Either way it's a wreckless play an 100% avoidable. I've driven plenty of people into the boards knowing I am beat to the puck to take them out of the play. Sure I have lifted my front skate to add a little hot sauce on the hit while powering off my back foot. I have never once come close to landing that foot down on another players leg though. When you try to bulldog a player into the boards when you know your beat for the puck instead of taking him out of the play it's pretty obvious why your doing it. Anytime you lift a stick while also lifting your leg up to another players knee from behind is a pretty obvious move also. 

 

 I'd also love if we could drop the "have you played" canard. It's meant to denigrate someones opinion and just makes it so only a select few are allowed to have an opinion of any weight. 

 

I wasn't pulling the have you played card as a means of devaluing opinions. It was a legitimate question because the physics of bodies jostling around in the corner in hockey are complex. It's not as simple as Cooke's leg came up and it shouldn't have, therefore it was some attempt to hurt Karlsson. Your inability to see past the changes Cooke has made to his game make it less worth discussing with you, though.



#48 kenneycb


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:19 PM

Going through your argument:

-It's not a a slew foot or an attempted slew foot as first contact is made with the back shoulder and not the front of the body.  He also does not make any attempt to move his shoulder in front of Karlsson, instead he keeps driving his shoulder into Karlsson's in a legal manner. 

-Your correct play scenario is basically saying that Matt Cooke should learn how to be faster than Erik Karlsson.  Great in theory.  Pretty much impossible in actuality.  Getting perpendicular to Karlsson when you are already behind him and not picking up a charging call is quite difficult. 

-Cooke's foot doesn't go up until Karlsson makes contacts with the boards and starts to drive back.  He did not lift his stick and his foot.  His foot was lifted as a result of the lift of the stick and Karlsson hitting the boards.  If you want to say it's Cooke's fault for that, sure go ahead but I'm hard pressed to find lifting the stick a malicious play.

-Lastly, Cooke is looking away from Karlsson and at the puck pretty much from first contact.  If he has the ability to try to land on Karlsson's leg while trying to make a play on the puck and driving Karlsson in the boards, well, that's pretty damn impressive body control and awareness.


So, no, it was not malicious.


Edited by kenneycb, 14 February 2013 - 07:20 PM.


#49 NHbeau


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:24 PM

I wasn't pulling the have you played card as a means of devaluing opinions. It was a legitimate question because the physics of bodies jostling around in the corner in hockey are complex. It's not as simple as Cooke's leg came up and it shouldn't have, therefore it was some attempt to hurt Karlsson. Your inability to see past the changes Cooke has made to his game make it less worth discussing with you, though.

 No more complex than football, basketball, MMA or plenty of other subjects we all talk about here.

 

 See the changes to his game are what angers me the most. If he couldn't be an effective player without the headhunting, knee to knee shots etc then he'd be out of the league. His changes came about because he was going to be done playing hockey after the Rangers incident. Miracles of miracles he has "changed" and has played cleaner hockey. Pretty clearly the 10 years before that he went out there looking to hurt, injure and maim anyone on the opposing side. If their career got ended he'd smirk while skating to the bench. Only when faced with his own half life did he make any changes to his game. That is all I need to know about Matt Cooke. 



#50 NHbeau


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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:30 PM

Going through your argument:

-It's not a a slew foot or an attempted slew foot as first contact is made with the back shoulder and not the front of the body.  He also does not make any attempt to move his shoulder in front of Karlsson, instead he keeps driving his shoulder into Karlsson's in a legal manner. 

 A slew foot isn't defined by where you make first contact. We'll agree to disagree on him trying to get in front of Karlsson or not. 

-Your correct play scenario is basically saying that Matt Cooke should learn how to be faster than Erik Karlsson.  Great in theory.  Pretty much impossible in actuality.  Getting perpendicular to Karlsson when you are already behind him and not picking up a charging call is quite difficult.

 That's my bad. Meant to say parallel. 






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