51 replies to this topic

[Phil Plantier]

...including Cleveland's Kevin Cash, who I'm sure we all fondly remember:P.

Since I do remember Kevin Cash fondly, this got me thinking: is there some way to define those careers we remember happily vs. those that we are still annoyed by? Obviously, we all love (or at least appreciate) the stars and the quirky talents, but what about those other players, the ones who were disappointing, or came up small in big occasions, or were below replacement level?

I could only do three poll questions, but of course a lot more players came to mind.
Adam Hyzdu?
John Wasdin?
Jack Clark?

I thought I had universal love for all former non-felonious Red Sox, but I must admit I'm still a little upset at how bad Jack Clark was.

So is there some quality that preserves the dislike, e.g. overpaid or (allegedly) lazy? Or is it just a case-by-case basis? Were there any Red Sox during the Fenway celebration last spring that made you growl instead of cheer?

[jose melendez]

Bob Stanley was the most disliked good player this team ever had.

 

I loved the guy.

[brs3]

Who's still annoyed with Wayback Wasdin? In hindsight he was laughably bad. Offerman had such hype when he arrived and turned into a lemon.

 

I would add Aaron Sele to my list of hate. He left the Sox and promptly compiled a ton of wins, but he still sucked!

[RingoOSU]

I think when it comes to shortest time with the sox that provokes the biggest feeling of dislike, I think Eric Gagne. But I'm sure there must be one or two sox fans that loved him so much as a Dodger they can forgive him for being totally worthless when not on the juice.

[Laser Show]

How about the immortal Kevin Jarvis?

[ShaneTrot]

Bob Stanley was the most disliked good player this team ever had.

 

I loved the guy.

Totally agree, a very under-rated player. If the 2011 Sox had Stanley they would have breezed into the playoffs. Career ERA+ of 118 in 1707 innings.

[TheYaz67]

No Bung Hole Kim?  Boy, he was a big favorite.  That was an awful signing before he ever threw a pitch....

[Lose Remerswaal]

No Bung Hole Kim?  Boy, he was a big favorite.  That was an awful signing before he ever threw a pitch....

 

Not sure if you mean Byung-Hyun Kim (BK Kim) or Sun-Woo Kim.  Considering BK Kim was traded to the Sox, you must mean the second one.  But I'm not sure they paid Sunny that much money, so maybe you just posted so you could put in your 12 year old boy "joke" on the main board?

[Reverend]

Bob Stanley was the most disliked good player this team ever had.

 

I loved the guy.

 

10-0.

[Oil Can Dan]

Is this a players only thing?  Because I don't think I can hate anyone more than I hate Gump.

 

And the Steamer was great.  I remember after he got booed in '86 he said something to the effect of "after we win it all I'm going to tell the fans to go f**k themselves". And boy, did the 15 year old version of me really believe he was going to do just that before the passed ball (yes, it was a PB) vs Mookie.

Edited by Oil Can Dan, 08 February 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[Hendu for Kutch]

I was too young to remember the majority of Stanley's career, but I fondly remember trying to throw a palmball in my backyard.  I had no idea what it was or how to throw it, so I'd just hold the ball in my palm instead of with the typical two fingers and let it roll off all four fingers when I threw it.  It didn't really do anything (I was probably throwing about 40 MPH, so everything I threw became a sinker due to gravity), but I felt cool I could throw a pitch nobody else knew how to throw.

 

For that reason Stanley gets 2 thumbs and 1 palm up from me.

[nvalvo]

Adam Stern would be a good one for this game. Mediocre talent, nice enough guy, but it was infuriating, to me, anyway, that Theo persisted in keeping him on the 25-man roster because of Rule V, even though his mediocrity was transparent. 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Adam Stern would be a good one for this game. Mediocre talent, nice enough guy, but it was infuriating, to me, anyway, that Theo persisted in keeping him on the 25-man roster because of Rule V, even though his mediocrity was transparent.

But without Adam Stern, do we have the shitty Javy Lopez experience?

[Dick Pole Upside]

Bob Stanley was a fat tub of goo (non-Forster division).  I hated him.  Poster Boy for why baseball players are far and away the least athletic of the big four professional sports.  Consistently mock the fans and media each Spring by proclaiming to be in the best shape of his life when it was obvious he had packed on another 10 pounds.  Is there any doubt he is President Emeritus of the chicken-and-beer crew?  Seething. Cauldron. of. Anger.

[Rasputin]

I don't get why anyone would bother having an opinion about Kevin Cash. He sucked, but it's not like it's his fault he sucked. And he wasn't around very long. His entire career with the Sox consists of 102 games spread over three seasons.

 

Jose Offerman's hate, I have always thought, was more because some people seemed to think he was brought in to replace Mo Vaughn, and he was brought in by Dan Duquette. He got hurt, lost his speed, and didn't have the skills to be the player he was supposed to be without the speed.

 

Bob Stanley was a very good player for a long time and if you hate him, you're an asshole.

 

 

 

No Bung Hole Kim?  Boy, he was a big favorite.  That was an awful signing before he ever threw a pitch....

 

If it weren't for one of the best trades any GM has ever made, the trade for BK Kim would be a candidate for the best one of Dan Duquette's career.

 

I mean, fuck, do you not remember how good he was? Here's his 2003.  79.1 innings, WHIP 1.109, two walks per nine, 7.8 strikeouts per nine. 

[JimBoSox9]

Jose Offerman, Carl Everett, BH Kim, Eric Gagne, Mike Lansing, Shea Hillenbrand. That's a pretty good set of underperforming douchebags there. The former description may be unfair to Everett and the latter to Kim, but basically fuck those guys

Honorable Mention: Tony Clark. Just too good a dude to include even unfairly, but holy hell his glacial swing almost put me in the hospital.

Next Inductee: John Lackey - time will tell, I suppose.

[941827]

Matt Young had one decent year in Seattle, Sweet Lou overpaid him, and then the Sox were stuck with him for 2 years.  Good Lord did I hate him.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Bob Stanley was the most disliked good player this team ever had.

 

I loved the guy.

 

 

Most people think that the nickname "The Steamer" came from the carpet cleaning company.  It did not.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

Most people think that the nickname "The Steamer" came from the carpet cleaning company.  It did not.

 

 

One night in Cleveland ...

[Rovin Romine]

Jose Offerman, Carl Everett, BH Kim, Eric Gagne, Mike Lansing, Shea Hillenbrand. That's a pretty good set of underperforming douchebags there. The former description may be unfair to Everett and the latter to Kim, but basically fuck those guys

Honorable Mention: Tony Clark. Just too good a dude to include even unfairly, but holy hell his glacial swing almost put me in the hospital.

Next Inductee: John Lackey - time will tell, I suppose.

 

Tony Clark used to cause me to gnash my teeth.  He should definitely be in.  As should Jimy Williams.  Which leads us to. . .Darren Lewis.  Not remembered fondly.

[Savin Hillbilly]

I have to admit my first thought on seeing the thread title was that it was going to be about Tito's office commode.

[dcb46]

Luis Rivera.  It killed me that I was expected to root for an organization that trotted that guy out as its regular shortstop.

[Sprowl]

Is this a players only thing?  Because I don't think I can hate anyone more than I hate Gump.

 

And the Steamer was great.  I remember after he got booed in '86 he said something to the effect of "after we win it all I'm going to tell the fans to go f**k themselves". And boy, did the 15 year old version of me really believe he was going to do just that before the passed ball (yes, it was a PB) vs Mookie.

 

Absolutely. I always blamed Rich Gedman, not Bob Stanley, for the pre-Buckner snafu.

 

The Dark Pit of Anger, like the seventh ring of hell, is big enough to contain most of the 2012 team. Not since the Awfulman/Bichette/Lansing/Kerrigan days can I remember so many dislikables. Bobby Valentine remade the team in his own image.

[Rovin Romine]

Those 90s teams. . .

 

Perhaps we can do a reverse "best player challenge" by assembling the worst sox team in the modern era, using the worst starters for each decade, say 200 PAs in a season or so, 15 GS for the starting rotation.

 

The 90s:

 

C  - Tony Pena, '90-93 

1B - Carlos Quintana, '90-91

2B - Mike Benjamin '98,  

3B - Scott Cooper, '92-94

SS - Luis Rivera, '90-92

OF - Darren Lewis '98-01

OF - Billy Hatcher, '92

OF - Darren Bragg, '97-'98

DH - Andre Dawson, '94

 

SP - Mike Gardiner, '91-92

SP - Matt Young, '91-92

SP - Zane Smith, '95

SP - Steve Avery, '97-98

SP - Mark Portugal, '99

 

1B, SS, and 3B were near misses for picking up a truly sucky player in the 90s, thanks to Mo Vaughn, Valentin-Nomar, and Boggs-Cooper-Valentin.  While DH might always be hard to find a truly bad player - manager Butch Hobson managed to put the 39 year old Hawk in the lineup to the tune of a .737 OPS for 75 games.

Edited by Rovin Romine, 08 February 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[URI]

No Bung Hole Kim?  Boy, he was a big favorite.  That was an awful signing before he ever threw a pitch....

 

Out of curiosity....

 

When you wrote this, what was the purpose?  Was it to get a bunch of frat brah internet high fives?  Or was is just to show off your complete lack of understand of how transactions and value work?

 

Either way, you read the room totally wrong.  Read more and post less.

[Clears Cleaver]

Bob Stanley was a fat tub of goo (non-Forster division).  I hated him.  Poster Boy for why baseball players are far and away the least athletic of the big four professional sports.  Consistently mock the fans and media each Spring by proclaiming to be in the best shape of his life when it was obvious he had packed on another 10 pounds.  Is there any doubt he is President Emeritus of the chicken-and-beer crew?  Seething. Cauldron. of. Anger.

 this. Man, you could always count on him to give up a big gopher ball. I remember he STARTED opening day 1987. WTF. a couple of future SoSHers watched with me and we literally taped a piece of paper over the pitcher's mound so we didn't have to look at him. It was a big piece of paper

[BillMuellerFanClub]

First player that comes to mind is Cliff Floyd.  He's a truly interesting case for me as he represented everything that is good in a Sox memory, which is hope, optimism, and some form of heart break.  I remember we acquired him in what was one of the single most fun to watch seasons of my fandom career, and also the most disappointing.  This probably is also a good way to describe the way I remember Cliff Floyd.  He was picked up in the heat of a pennant race, he played reasonably well, though didn't take the team on his back like I hoped that he would, pushing them over the top, and the Sox finished 10 games behind the Yankees in the division.  That season also represented Derek Lowe's best statistical season, starting for the AL in the All-Star game as well as 20 games won by Pedro.  Also, they had Nomar, the peak of Manny Ramirez, Johnny Damon, and the infamous Shea Hillenbrand.  

 

Also overshadowed by the ridiculous seasons by the Moneyball A's and the rest of the AL West.   So yeah, that's what Cliff Floyd means to me.

[jose melendez]

Those 90s teams. . .

 

Perhaps we can do a reverse "best player challenge" by assembling the worst sox team in the modern era, using the worst starters for each decade, say 200 PAs in a season or so, 15 GS for the starting rotation.

 

The 90s:

 

C  - Tony Pena, '90-93 

1B - Carlos Quintana, '90-91

2B - Mike Benjamin '98,  

3B - Scott Cooper, '92-94

SS - Luis Rivera, '90-92

OF - Darren Lewis '98-01

OF - Billy Hatcher, '92

OF - Darren Bragg, '97-'98

DH - Andre Dawson, '94

 

SP - Mike Gardiner, '91-92

SP - Matt Young, '91-92

SP - Zane Smith, '95

SP - Steve Avery, '97-98

SP - Mark Portugal, '99

 

1B, SS, and 3B were near misses for picking up a truly sucky player in the 90s, thanks to Mo Vaughn, Valentin-Nomar, and Boggs-Cooper-Valentin.  While DH might always be hard to find a truly bad player - manager Butch Hobson managed to put the 39 year old Hawk in the lineup to the tune of a .737 OPS for 75 games.

  I like this game.

 

But if you only need one season with 200 PA's, we can do way worse.

 

Steve Lyons in Center,  Bob Zupcic had some awfully years.  

 

In 1992 Herm Winnighman had an OPS+ of 53 over 240 or so at bats

 

Scott Fletcher put up an OPS+ of 60 in 1994

[Rovin Romine]

The '00s (also scoring heavily in the least likeable categories).  Most of these players are from the early 00s.  When you look pre/post ownership change, the solidity of the starting roster begins to shine, even when there's a lot of turnover, such as 2B.  SS remains a weakness.

 

C  - Scott Hatteberg

1B - Tony Clark

2B - Rey Sanchez (H.M. Jose Offerman)

3B - Wilton Veras

SS - Reese/Renteria/Lugo/Green

OF - Coco Crisp

OF - Gabe Kapler

OF - Troy O'Leary

DH - Dante Bichette

 

SP - Brad Penney

SP - David Wells

SP - John Burkett

SP - Frank Castillo

SP - Pete Schourek

[Rovin Romine]

  I like this game.

 

But if you only need one season with 200 PA's, we can do way worse.

 

Steve Lyons in Center,  Bob Zupcic had some awfully years.  

 

In 1992 Herm Winnighman had an OPS+ of 53 over 240 or so at bats

 

Scott Fletcher put up an OPS+ of 60 in 1994

I was thinking that the player would be a primary starter for a season.  Unofficial bonus points if that player was slotted in to be a starter, rather than a replacement for an injured starter.   Additional bonus points for extended suckitude, unmitigated by competence?  (Fletcher had a good year at least.)  Feel free to add/change to the list or the rules as you see fit. 

 

I had forgotten about Lyons. . .ugh.

 

P.S.- Looking at that 90's roster makes me laugh.  How awful would that team be?

Edited by Rovin Romine, 08 February 2013 - 02:35 PM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

 this. Man, you could always count on him to give up a big gopher ball. 

 

Here's why this is funny: there are 22 pitchers with at least 1000 innings pitched for the Boston Red Sox from 1950 on. Guess how many had a lower HR/9 than Bob Stanley? You know the answer already, don't you? Lower the bar to 500 innings pitched, and there are 45 post-1950 guys who meet that bar. And exactly ONE of them--some guy named Mickey McDermott--allowed fewer HR per inning of work than Stanley. It was easier to go deep on Roger Clemens or Pedro Martinez than on Steamer.

 

Bob Stanley is absolutely the most irrationally hated athlete in Boston sports history. 

[drleather2001]

I was pumped when they traded for BH Kim. Shea Hillenbrand was totally extraneous at that point (and an asshole to boot), and, as mentioned, Kim did pretty well in 2003. Had he been healthy in the 2003 post-season (he was banged up all year), I think the 2003 ALCS turns out very differently.

Kim could have been Foulke, had things just gone a little differently.

[Rudy Pemberton]

 
If it weren't for one of the best trades any GM has ever made, the trade for BK Kim would be a candidate for the best one of Dan Duquette's career.
 

Dan Duquette?

[ngruz25]

On July 27, 2000, the Colorado Rockies traded Mike Lansing, Rolando Arrojo, and Rick Croushore to the Boston Red Sox for Brian Rose, John Wasdin, Jeff Frye, and Jeff Taglienti.

 

Besides the two nobodies, everybody involved in this trade makes me nauseous.

 

(Okay, Frye wasn't that bad I guess)

[dcb46]

Lugo at SS by a landslide.

[CaptainLaddie]

No Bung Hole Kim?  Boy, he was a big favorite.  That was an awful signing before he ever threw a pitch....

 

A) wasn't a signing, it was a trade.  They moved a mediocre 3B to acquire an ace reliever.

B) That ace reliever was coming off of four seasons of 144 ERA+ pitching.  Comes to Boston, puts up a 147 ERA+.

C) Has a poor start to 2004, and is sent to the minors -- but this is after only 12 innings of pitching.  Rest of his career was nothing of note, but that trade was EXCELLENT for the 03 Sox.  Simply put: they don't make the playoffs without him in 03.  And the guy they moved for him?   Well, Hillenbrand was useless thanks to Bill Mueller and Mark Bellhorn becoming OBP machines.

But yes, he was "an awful signing".

Edited by CaptainLaddie, 08 February 2013 - 04:48 PM.

[QUNate]

If I remember correctly, Gump rode Kim into the ground during the 2003 season.

[drleather2001]

 
A) wasn't a signing, it was a trade.  They moved a mediocre 3B to acquire an ace reliever.
B) That ace reliever was coming off of four seasons of 144 ERA+ pitching.  Comes to Boston, puts up a 147 ERA+.
C) Has a poor start to 2004, and is sent to the minors -- but this is after only 12 innings of pitching.  Rest of his career was nothing of note, but that trade was EXCELLENT for the 03 Sox.  Simply put: they don't make the playoffs without him in 03.  And the guy they moved for him?   Well, Hillenbrand was useless thanks to Bill Mueller and Mark Bellhorn becoming OBP machines.

But yes, he was "an awful signing".

But he flipped Fenway the bird! He's a Bung Hole!

[Rudy Pemberton]

To be fair, the two year contract extension Epstein gave Kim was ill-advised.

[Rasputin]

But he flipped Fenway the bird! He's a Bung Hole!

 

Fenway fucking deserved it.

[tonyarmasjr]

The 98-00 teams had some hateable players for me.  I was in my teens watching Pedro's magnificence be wasted.  And we were trotting out guys like Darren Bragg (who I always thought would/could/should be better), Darren Lewis (dude put up like a 50 OPS+ two years in a row), and Wilton Veras.  And then there was the Offerman falling off a cliff thing.

And Mark Portugal.  He may be the baseball player I hate most for no reason other than I always hated his face. And that long, greasy hair he had for awhile.  I hated that the Sox signed him; it was like signing A-Rod, for me.  And (shockingly enough at age 36) he was awful.

[seantoo]

Who's still annoyed with Wayback Wasdin? In hindsight he was laughably bad. Offerman had such hype when he arrived and turned into a lemon.

 

I would add Aaron Sele to my list of hate. He left the Sox and promptly compiled a ton of wins, but he still sucked!

He may have ended as a lemon but his first year with Boston at 30 YO was anything but, he was a deserved AS that year with an OPS+ of 108, 107 runs, 172 hits with 37 doubles and led the league with 11 triples he walked 96 times with a .294 BA and an OBP of .391.

[pedro1918]

I will always think of Steamer as a very good pitcher, but I can not honestly say that a smile comes across my face when I think of him.  I do have his autograph and it displayed proudly.

 

When I think of Jose Offerman, it is most often int he context of him attacking minor league pitchers and umpires.  His Sox career really is secondary to his minor league infamy in my mind.

 

I don't have an opinion on Cash.  Whatever.

[Andrew]

I still don't get why Jay Payton signed here if he knew he was going to be a back-up.

[lexrageorge]

Stanley was a really good relief pitcher back in the days when relievers pitched multiple innings (3.5 innings per appearance in 1982), and really stabilized the team's bullpen throughout the early 1980's.  Too bad the team was just awful most of those years.  He was serviceable as a starter in 1979-80, but his main attribute was his versatility to both start and relief on short notice.  And his sinker was truly a nasty pitch. 

 

By 1986, the innings and appearances and BABIP gods had caught up to him, and this was an era when the terms "pitchers" and "fitness" were never used in the same sentence.  Unfortunately, that season also coincided with the first year of his infamous 4 year/$4M contract that never seemed to end, not to mention the whole Game 6 fiasco.  

 

I hated Jose Offerman.  There were a lot of other players from that same era I hated.

[Andy Tomberlin]

Rudy Seanez.

 

Both times.

[DLew On Roids]

I've been saying for 12 years that Darren Lewis really should have used PEDs.

[Rovin Romine]

I've been saying for 12 years that Darren Lewis really should have used PEDs.

 

If Darren Lewis *Doubled* his average OPS during his four year tenure with Boston, he still wouldn't reach Barry Bonds' high water mark with SF (2001-04).

 

That's scary for several reasons.

[maufman]

Here's why this is funny: there are 22 pitchers with at least 1000 innings pitched for the Boston Red Sox from 1950 on. Guess how many had a lower HR/9 than Bob Stanley? You know the answer already, don't you? Lower the bar to 500 innings pitched, and there are 45 post-1950 guys who meet that bar. And exactly ONE of them--some guy named Mickey McDermott--allowed fewer HR per inning of work than Stanley. It was easier to go deep on Roger Clemens or Pedro Martinez than on Steamer.

Bob Stanley is absolutely the most irrationally hated athlete in Boston sports history.

Effort counts. Attitude counts.

I haven't seen many pitchers allow an infield single to the right side of the field without moving their ass off the pitcher's mound. I'm pretty sure Bob Stanley is the only pitcher I've seen that happen to more than once. And according to Mookie Wilson's account, that same sloth was a key factor on that infamous grounder to first in Game 6 -- who knows if an injured Buckner makes that play if he's not worried about winning a race to the bag?

Add Stanley's eff-you attitude to the mix, and it's no wonder his name is mud to many Sox fans.

[bakahump]

Arrojo, Bichette and Lansing

 

Neither A or B where really horrible here.

 

Arrojo (ERA+  of 101, 129, 92)

Bichette (OPS 854, 786)

 

Still I hated them. Dont know why..

 

Lansing utterly sucked. (.453 and .677....yea those are OPS)

 

Least I do know why I hated him.