84 replies to this topic

[Koufax]

Put LeBron in the 80s, he is bitching about getting pummeled every night.  Put LeBron in the 60s, and he doesn't get through a offensive series without a travel being called on him.

 

He is an incredible athlete however his game would have not worked in the past.  Travels far too much and complains when he gets touched at all.  Imagine McHale clotheslining LeBron then the ref calling LeBron for the travel before that.

I have no doubt that he would have adapted his game to whatever the dictates of the day required and been a dominant player because he understands the game so well. 

 

If McHale had clotheslined LeBron, McHale would have gotten banged up the most.  He is a beast.

[NatetheGreat]

The whole "breath on Lebron and the refs call a foul" thing isn't really true, at least not this year. He's actually drawing fouls at a much lower rate than a lot of the other big stars, including Durant, which is strange because he's playing in the paint more which usually correlates to more fouls rather than less. If there's an area where he's getting favored by the refs it is almost certainly on defense, where he's allowed to roam and play aggresive defense while rarely being called for much.

[nighthob]

agreed - can't really answer the question till his career is over. It'd be like walking out halfway through a movie and declaring that is definitely going to win Best Picture. If he gets hit by a bus tomorrow, then clearly the answer is no. If he dominates for 10 more years and wins 3+ more championships he could be in the mix w/ Jordan, Wilt, Russel et al.

Just as a pure statistical argument, as great as Lebron has been at this point in their careers (thru age 28) Jordan has been slightly better and had already won 3 championships. Lebron averaged 15.2 win shares per season and Jordan averaged 16.3 thru age 28. Lebron has a career 27.4 PER and Jordan had a 29.6 thru age 28.

 

Jordan did not win "three titles" by the time he turned 28. The Bulls won their first title two months or so after Jordan turned 28. James, on the other hand, turned 28 a month and a half ago.

[nighthob]

Put LeBron in the 80s, he is bitching about getting pummeled every night.  Put LeBron in the 60s, and he doesn't get through a offensive series without a travel being called on him.

 

I don't think that James would waste a lot of time complaining about getting "pummeled" by the 6'8" 225 lb Buck Williams or the 6'6" (in Don Martens) 220 lb. Calvin Natt (just to name a couple of the PFs from the era). Seriously, look at some of those guys. If Cedric Maxwell were graduating from college this year scouts would be worried about his ability to defend the SF spot much less the PF spot due to his rather willowy frame. The closest the 80s ever got to James was with Barkley (not in terms of game but in terms of mass & athleticism).

[ALiveH]

i meant through the age 28 season, jordan had won 3.  you are correct LBJ is in the midst of his age 28 season so if he wins this year, he'd be just 1 behind at the same career stage.

 

i agree that LBJ would've been dominant in every era (though he wouldn't have been quite as freakish b/c of the training / nutrition differences and would've had higher injury risk).  In the '80s I could see him as a guy who would relish contact, definitely a huge advantage.  He would've been able to lay a physical hurting on just about anyone in the league if the refs were just "letting them play."

[nighthob]

i meant through the age 28 season, jordan had won 3.  you are correct LBJ is in the midst of his age 28 season so if he wins this year, he'd be just 1 behind at the same career stage.

 

i agree that LBJ would've been dominant in every era (though he wouldn't have been quite as freakish b/c of the training / nutrition differences and would've had higher injury risk).  In the '80s I could see him as a guy who would relish contact, definitely a huge advantage.  He would've been able to lay a physical hurting on just about anyone in the league if the refs were just "letting them play."

 

Jordan was 28 when the Bulls won their first title. James was 27 when the Heat won last June.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

1.  Jordan

 

2.  LeBron

 

3.  Shaq

 

4.  Shaq

 

A few comments:

 

First my 1a. might be James and my 1b might be Kobe.  

 

While LeBron left a bad taste with "The Decision", it really wasn't even a choice for him when you see what he had to work with in Cleveland.  People doubted and probably continue to doubt his competitive fire but game six of the ECF last year ought to silence anyone.  He was the best player on the floor that night by a wide margin and willed a reeling Miami team back to South Florida where they ultimately won the series.  And while the refereeing for that series might have been questionable, it wasn't a factor that night.  It was all LeBron.

 

Also, people forget how dominant peak-Shaq was during the mid-90s into the early aughts.   When he was at his best, he was virtually unstoppable.  He had the muscle to beat up on smaller guys and the athleticism to outwork guys who were around his height.  If I could build a Celtic team around any player, it would be Shaq.

[nighthob]

Also, people forget how dominant peak-Shaq was during the mid-90s into the early aughts.   When he was at his best, he was virtually unstoppable.  He had the muscle to beat up on smaller guys and the athleticism to outwork guys who were around his height.  If I could build a Celtic team around any player, it would be Shaq.

 

I have to agree with this. If I were building a team being able to choose any guy I think there's a better than 50% chance that that one guy is Shaq circa '96-'04.

[TomRicardo]

I don't think that James would waste a lot of time complaining about getting "pummeled" by the 6'8" 225 lb Buck Williams or the 6'6" (in Don Martens) 220 lb. Calvin Natt (just to name a couple of the PFs from the era). Seriously, look at some of those guys. If Cedric Maxwell were graduating from college this year scouts would be worried about his ability to defend the SF spot much less the PF spot due to his rather willowy frame. The closest the 80s ever got to James was with Barkley (not in terms of game but in terms of mass & athleticism).

 

You guys are confusing size with tenacity.

 

Yes LeBron is bigger than these players but if anyone thinks he uses his size to his advantage in tough games hasn't watched LeBron.  LeBron shuts down in physical games.  He does not like being roughed up.  He bitches and moans whenever he is touched.  He is more physically intimidating to officials than opponents

 

You can't assume he would instantly not be a massive pussy just because it was the 80s and you had to be a much tougher caliber of player to play in 80s basketball.

 

Indiana was able to hold LeBron off last year with a less talented team by battering LeBron.  Boston was able to the same for three games.  He really wasn't able to perform last year unless he got to the line a ton.  Game 7 of the East Conference, he got more FTA than the entire Boston team (especially in the second half thanks Joe Crawford).

 

LeBron is a beast but he is no warrior.  When the referees put the whistles in their pockets, he flounders.  He was only able to out muscle a much smaller Kevin Durant.

[Tony C]

Really? While the game may have been more physical, the players were quite a bit less physical and the defenses were orders of magnitude less sophisticated than today. LeBron's physical gifts would have been even more dominant the further back we go (he's probably the most gifted athlete ever in the NBA) and his basketball IQ would still be top-notch. It seems likely that he'd be more dominant in the 80s and vastly more dominant in the 60s. It's not like his game is predicated on lax calls on traveling and tight calls on bruising--he just takes advantage of it. 

 

Yeah, this is well said. It's pure fantasy that Lebron couldn't physically match up with guys from previous eras, to the contrary he'd be even more of a beast.

 

For me, with a bit of speculation on Lebron continuing to be as good as he is, it is:

 

1: Jordan

2: Lebron

3: Shaq

[NatetheGreat]

You guys are confusing size with tenacity.



Yes LeBron is bigger than these players but if anyone thinks he uses his size to his advantage in tough games hasn't watched LeBron. LeBron shuts down in physical games. He does not like being roughed up. He bitches and moans whenever he is touched. He is more physically intimidating to officials than opponents



You can't assume he would instantly not be a massive pussy just because it was the 80s and you had to be a much tougher caliber of player to play in 80s basketball.



Indiana was able to hold LeBron off last year with a less talented team by battering LeBron. Boston was able to the same for three games. He really wasn't able to perform last year unless he got to the line a ton. Game 7 of the East Conference, he got more FTA than the entire Boston team (especially in the second half thanks Joe Crawford).



LeBron is a beast but he is no warrior. When the referees put the whistles in their pockets, he flounders. He was only able to out muscle a much smaller Kevin Durant.

Wasn't that Pacers series the one where Lebron dropped 40/18/9 in a key game 4 when Bosh was out? I certainly didn't finish that series and think "wow, the Pacers sure out-toughed Lebron."

And frankly, the refs have been putting their whistles in their pockets when it comes to Lebron more this season that at any point in his career (he's currently at just over 6 fta per game, which is nowhere near being the league leader--Durant is currently over 9 per game) since he was a rookie, and he's been far more dominant then ever.

Moreover, isn't "refs putting their whistles in their pockets" exactly what Lebron haters bitch about when he's on D? Any refs who say "let 'em play" are presumably going to be doing the same on the other side, meaning Lebron is going to be able to maul whoever has the ball.

Edited by NatetheGreat, 11 February 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[TomRicardo]

Wasn't that Pacers series the one where Lebron dropped 40/18/9 in a key game 4 when Bosh was out? I certainly didn't finish that series and think "wow, the Pacers sure out-toughed Lebron."

And frankly, the refs have been putting their whistles in their pockets when it comes to Lebron more this season that at any point in his career (he's currently at just over 6 fta per game, which is nowhere near being the league leader--Durant is currently over 9 per game) since he was a rookie, and he's been far more dominant then ever.

Moreover, isn't "refs putting their whistles in their pockets" exactly what Lebron haters bitch about when he's on D? Any refs who say "let 'em play" are presumably going to be doing the same on the other side, meaning Lebron is going to be able to maul whoever has the ball.

 

You mean the game where LeBron took 31% of the FT for the entire game?  Yea he was beastly when he was getting protected.

 

Any time you see a player get 30% of the calls on his own, you know the officals were keeping the whistle in their pocket and let him play out.

[reggiecleveland]

LeBron is not as mean as MJ, Bird, Russell, but that is like saying not as good a batting eye as Ted. There were questions about Jordan's composure and selfishness when he was without a title. When Magic fucked up vs the rockets then turned the ball over a key points vs the Cs there was a glorious 2 years where he was labeled a choker and Arsenio was a shrill little bitch complaining how the media loved Bird. LeBron is a great team guy and the soft knock is a taint get can only get rid of by getting more rings. We expect stars to exert themselves and score like Jordan. Kobe is like that but it is weakness as often as a strength. My take is LeBron lost a title trying to fit with Wade and now he is more likely to take over. Is this what you are saying Tom? If LeBron used his strength more he would and was nastier he would be the best ever. Since he doesn't he isn't. I do not like his demeanor. I like scowling motherfucker that plays angry like Jordan, Larry, even Kobe. But I have to admit he has his own style and plays hard.

Edited by reggiecleveland, 11 February 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[nighthob]

You guys are confusing size with tenacity.

 

Yes LeBron is bigger than these players but if anyone thinks he uses his size to his advantage in tough games hasn't watched LeBron.  LeBron shuts down in physical games.  He does not like being roughed up.  He bitches and moans whenever he is touched.  He is more physically intimidating to officials than opponents

 

No, we're not. Of course he bitches, just like Pierce, Garnett, Bryant, Durant and every other star in the NBA . Because they get the fouls that way. I mean the whole "He can only outmuscle Kevin Durant!!!" is, while untrue, actually the point. That's what those "beasts" in the 80s looked like. Do you seriously think any amount of "tenacity" would allow the 6'8" 220 lb. Max beat up a guy not only 20-40 lbs. heavier, but that much heavier with pure muscle? It's simple physics, that 6'8" 260 lb freight train moving faster than all but a handful of guards is going to have momentum the likes of which most of the decade's enforcers never encountered.

[nighthob]

You mean the game where LeBron took 31% of the FT for the entire game?  Yea he was beastly when he was getting protected.

 

Any time you see a player get 30% of the calls on his own, you know the officals were keeping the whistle in their pocket and let him play out.

 

God how I wish the Celtics had a player that could be "held off by being battered" into a 30/10.8/6.1 line on .514 shooting and 1.146 points per possession. Or bullied into a mere 33.6/11/4 line on .555 shooting and 1.179 points per possession. (On the bright side Boston took away a lot of assists. It must have been all the bullying.) Hint, both Indiana and Boston did the same thing, they didn't "bully LeBron" they purposely let Miami get the ball to the other guy (which worked for about three games in both series, or did you miss that both teams let their worst defenders take Wade in single coverage with no help?).

[EL Jeffe]

I'd love to see Kelly Tripucka, Alex English, Kiki Vandeweghe, Purvis Short et al try to guard Lebron James. Seriously, who would have guarded Lebron in that era? Cooper was way too skinny, same with Bobby Jones. McHale's length would have bothered him, but on an iso play, Lebron is beating McHale off the dribble 9 times out of 10. 

 

While I have no doubt that the Jeff Rulands and Rick Mahorns of the world would send him on his butt once or twice a game, would that keep him from scoring 50 points a game against those cats?

[Nick Kaufman]

Perhaps all those skinny players from the 1980s could also be given access to PEDs and HGH if Lebron was allowed to play with them.

[nighthob]

Problem is that even in high school, before he would have access to the sort of space age PEDs he did/does as a pro, he was far bigger/stronger/faster than those guys.

 

Seriously, there was no bigger Alex English fan than me 30 years ago. But his game doesn't translate to the modern NBA at all.

Edited by nighthob, 12 February 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[Nick Kaufman]

No. 1. I think that stuff is available in high schools too. That isn't to deny that he is would be a good basketball player without any substances.

 

No 2. That ain't body ain't a gift from God. It's not natural. It's a gift from man. And no, Lebron doesn't have his body because he's training hard and eats his wheaties.

Looking at people who played in the 60s I can see how they could be behind in taking their training or nutrition seriously, or the whole being a professional seriously. But guys in the 80s and 90s? No way. Back then, people were slender and toned, not built like freight trains.

 

I am also suspicious of Shaq and Dwight for that reason.

Also, thinking about this post made me appreciate Kevin Durant even more. That guy ain't doing any drugs and he's managing to be a 6'11 guy who can move the ball and play like a point guard. Now, that's truly rare.

 

But going back to Lebron, I think my sourness over the decision has begun melting away. I think he made a conscious effort these past couple of years to improve his image, but I don't think it's all fake. He's a good guy. And seeing Kobe abandon hero ball in favor of facilitating shows that his unselfishness was not him being a pussy but reading the game better. He should get credit for that.

[nighthob]

I think it's pretty clear that Shaq was getting his performance enhancers from the Outback Steakhouse. 

[Bergs]

I think it's pretty clear that Shaq was getting his performance enhancers from the Outback Steakhouse. 

 

That and the sudden "it's OK to blast defenders with position off their feet with your ass" rule change that just so happened to become law of the land about the time Stern needed Shaq to be the new "face of the league"...he got away with murder on offense.

[NatetheGreat]

That and the sudden "it's OK to blast defenders with position off their feet with your ass" rule change that just so happened to become law of the land about the time Stern needed Shaq to be the new "face of the league"...he got away with murder on offense.

He also got fouled virtually every time he got the ball in the post. I'm not talking about hack a shaq either, just that refs nearly always let defenders put multiple hands on him, because he was like 5x as big as everyone else and it seemed ridiculous to call a touch fall every damn play because these comparative midgets were using both hands.

Basically, Shaq was a nightmare to officiate because nearly every possession consisted of him fouling the defender and the defender fouling him. How do you call that? A big part of what bugged me about Shaq was just how arbitrary the officiating seemed with him. Not like a conspiracy (except maybe in that one Kings series...), more like it was just really clear the refs had no fucking clue how to call the type of interactions that were regularly occuring whenever Shaq got the ball.

Edited by NatetheGreat, 12 February 2013 - 04:58 PM.

[Koufax]

That and the sudden "it's OK to blast defenders with position off their feet with your ass" rule change that just so happened to become law of the land about the time Stern needed Shaq to be the new "face of the league"...he got away with murder on offense.

I used to hate Shaq for that.  Now I just hate his game.  LeBron, on the other hand, plays real basketball.  I appreciate that about him.  I'm with the skeptics on the PEDs, though.  that freight train ain't natural.

[jon abbey]

5 assists in the first 4 minutes tonight, it would be cool if he spent a few games trying to break the single game assist record.

[DannyDarwinism]

He also got fouled virtually every time he got the ball in the post. I'm not talking about hack a shaq either, just that refs nearly always let defenders put multiple hands on him, because he was like 5x as big as everyone else and it seemed ridiculous to call a touch fall every damn play because these comparative midgets were using both hands.
 

 

This. I'm far from the biggest Shaq fan in the world, but refs let him get beat on like no other, solely due the fact that he was so much bigger than everyone else.  He was held to a different standard and he got molested for it.

[NatetheGreat]

I dunno about best ever, but these last few games especially he's looking pretty fucking incredible. His efg% is 60 percent. That is notably higher than Shaq in his most dominant seasons (not higher than Shaq ever did, but Shaq only ever put up 60%+ efg in seasons where his offensive load was reduced a bit after he'd left the Lakers, whereas Lebron is as much the offensive focus of his team as he's ever been.)

Edited by NatetheGreat, 13 February 2013 - 12:28 AM.

[wutang112878]

The refs were in a no win situation with Shaq.  Shaq fouled and got fouled virtually every time he got the ball in the post and took a few dribbles and moved backwards.  He wouldnt make a move, he would simply dribble, take a tiny step back, and repeat until he felt he was close enough to the hoop.  Plowing through your defender isnt exactly legal or illegal depending on the defensive position, so they literally could have called a foul on or for Shaq on every one of those plays.  Then after you see that, to make things fair they would let guys battle more for position with him.... and it would snowball.  The best thing that could have happened for the refs and Shaq's career would have been keeping his body weight at like 7%.  Infinitely easier to officiate, he still would have been stronger than everyone, faster than most and probably would have had another 4-5 'prime' years.

[reggiecleveland]

Look Nick not everyone who is big juices. Nobody lifted until the 80s and then only a few. If you say kids today have access to performance enhancers and by performance enhancers you mean weights and workouts you are right. If you mean drugs, at least in LeBron's case you are off base.

[nighthob]

He was held to a different standard and he got molested for it.

 

Like an angry altar boy.

[Nick Kaufman]

Look Nick not everyone who is big juices. Nobody lifted until the 80s and then only a few. If you say kids today have access to performance enhancers and by performance enhancers you mean weights and workouts you are right. If you mean drugs, at least in LeBron's case you are off base.

 

I don't think we can be certain about anything either way. But we deserve to be suspicious. I was reading an article on NBA dope testing and it's a big fat joke. Essentially after a point in the season -and during the summer- the NBA's antidoping efforts rely on the honor code.

[wutang112878]

Do you have the link for that article?  I always find the details behind the drug testing policies are significant.

[Nick Kaufman]

http://espn.go.com/b...ba-drug-testing

 

Gap in the NBA’s anti-doping program: No blood testing
The challenge for anti-doping testers has always been tough: Figure out who has been using an ever-expanding list of performance-enhancing drugs -- some of which don’t even show up in tests -- using little more than blood and urine samples.

It’s a tall order.

Now imagine doing all of that with one arm tied behind your back. That’s what happens in the four major North American professional leagues. Strong player unions have succeeded, with minor exceptions, in banning blood tests on the grounds they are too invasive.

Meanwhile, the major new doping concern is human growth hormone (HGH) -- which the leagues have banned, but don’t test for, all the while telling Congress and others that they’ll start testing for it when there’s a reliable urine test. Meanwhile, in the Olympics and in other sports, the blood test for human growth hormone is in heavy use.

There are signs a longstanding ban of blood testing will end soon. Under pressure from Congress and others, the major leagues and their unions all say they’re working toward accepting blood tests -- the NBA and players' association have formed a committee to explore the issue.

But blood testing still is not part of the program in the three most prominent leagues, creating a major challenge for those trying to catch the cheaters.

Meanwhile, anecdotally, HGH has become not only a favored drug of athletes, but also of actors, movie executives and the wealthy. Players socialize in circles where HGH, testosterone and other “anti-aging” remedies are increasingly common. Not testing for it is becoming indefensible.

[McBride11]

Jordan's got longevity as well...

 

http://espn.go.com/n...49-one-one-game

[The Social Chair]

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/Michael-Jordan/michael-jordan-not-left-building 

 

When someone on TV compares LeBron to Oscar Robertson, Jordan fumes. He rolls his eyes, stretches his neck, frustrated. "It's absolutely … " he says, catching himself. "The point is, no one is critiquing the personnel that he's playing against. Their knowledge of how to play the game … that's not a fair comparison. That's not right … Could LeBron be successful in our era? Yes. Would he be as successful? No."

 

The announcers gush about LeBron, mentioning him in the same sentence with Jordan, who hears every word. Those words have an effect on him. He stares at the TV and points out a flaw in LeBron's game.

"I study him," he says.

When LeBron goes right, he usually drives; when he goes left, he usually shoots a jumper. It has to do with his mechanics and how he loads the ball for release. "So if I have to guard him," Jordan says, "I'm gonna push him left so nine times out of 10, he's gonna shoot a jump shot. If he goes right, he's going to the hole and I can't stop him. So I ain't letting him go right."

For the rest of the game, when LeBron gets the ball and starts his move, Jordan will call out some variation of "drive" or "shoot." It's not just LeBron. He sees fouls the officials miss, and the replays prove him right. When someone shoots, he knows immediately whether it's going in. He calls out what guys are going to do before they do it, more plugged into the flow of the game than some of the players on the court. He's answering texts, buried in his phone, when the play-by-play guy announces a LeBron jump shot. Without looking up, Jordan says, "Left?"

[Grin&MartyBarret]

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/Michael-Jordan/michael-jordan-not-left-building 

You'd think Jordan would have a better draft record if he was the talent evaluator that article tries to make him out to be.