37 replies to this topic

[Corsi]

A source with knowledge of the situation told Comcast SportsNet's Mike Giardi that, while Aqib Talib displayed no behavioral problems during his time with the Patriots, the team has enough concerns over his work ethic to be somewhat reluctant to offer the star cornerback a multiyear contract.

According to the source, Talib passed on the chance to do extra work at times this year and there are questions as to how he'd handle a long-term deal. The Pats, said the source, would prefer to sign Talib to a one-year, make-good contract.

However, considering the dearth of cornerbacks on the open market, Talib is likely to receive lucrative offers -- perhaps as much as $8 million or $10 million per season on a multiyear pact -- when he becomes a free agent.

http://www.csnne.com...165&feedID=3352

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Also his games played for this career

2008 through 2012

15, 15, 11, 13, 10

 

Some of that is suspension, most of that is injury.  There is nothing to suggest that he is capable of making it through a 16 game season, let alone 16 games and the playoffs.

[Stitch01]

Back to McCourty and Dennard with Arrington in the slot and go find a safety I guess.

[Koufax]

And his hammy problem in the Ravens game probably cost us a chance at the Super Bowl.

[BigSoxFan]

And his hammy problem in the Ravens game probably cost us a chance at the Super Bowl.

 

I'd say the fact that Brady and Co. sucked out loud played a bigger role. But, yeah, if Talib isn't brought back again, then we're back to Square 1.

[amarshal2]

If Talib is not the guy then he's not the guy.  That is fine with me.  What wouldn't' be fine is not doing something about the talent in the secondary on par with re-signing Talib.

[Shelterdog]

I think they will (and should) franchise him--it's just such a hard position to fill but there are enough risks (injury, suspension, firearms) that he's really scary if you commit to him long term.

[Shelterdog]

If Talib is not the guy then he's not the guy.  That is fine with me.  What wouldn't' be fine is not doing something about the talent in the secondary on par with re-signing Talib.

 

 

Unfortunately there is no other option on par with Talib.  He's probably going to be the most talented free agent DB by far (Goldson and Baird are good but they're getting franchised, Grimes is good but he's coming off of a torn ACL; nobody else comes to mind as an equally talented player).

[RSN Diaspora]

I think they will (and should) franchise him--it's just such a hard position to fill but there are enough risks (injury, suspension, firearms) that he's really scary if you commit to him long term.

If they're going to do that, given the cost of what franchising a CB will be, they might as well offer an over-priced, front-loaded contract.

[amarshal2]

Unfortunately there is no other option on par with Talib.  He's probably going to be the most talented free agent DB by far (Goldson and Baird are good but they're getting franchised, Grimes is good but he's coming off of a torn ACL; nobody else comes to mind as an equally talented player).

 

There's more than one way to skin a cat (trades, draft, upgrading multiple positions, whatever).  I don't know the other answers and perhaps there are none, but I doubt it.

Edited by amarshal2, 05 February 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I think they will (and should) franchise him--it's just such a hard position to fill but there are enough risks (injury, suspension, firearms) that he's really scary if you commit to him long term.

 

Yeah, I agree that this scenario looks increasingly likely.  The team has shown on other occasions that they don't mind "overpaying" a guy for a year with the franchise tag if it allows them to maintain more long-term flexibility.  They also may not mind negotiating a longer term deal with Talib but they don't want to do that in the context of free agency given how this market is shaping up for CBs.

Edited by Morgan's Magic Snowplow, 05 February 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Shelterdog]

If they're going to do that, given the cost of what franchising a CB will be, they might as well offer an over-priced, front-loaded contract.

 

We'll see-I could obviously be wrong but I think Talib gets 4/40-45 million, $20+ guaranteed if he hits the open market and I'm not willing to compete with that.

[Super Nomario]

Back to McCourty and Dennard with Arrington in the slot and go find a safety I guess.

I'd be kind of interested to see how that lineup would do. They never really got to run it: McCourty and Dennard were the starting corners together just one week, and that was with the Wilson / Chung duo at safety. McCourty grades out in my numbers about the same as Talib (actually a touch better) - I think one nightmare quarter against Baltimore throws off how his whole season is perceived.

[Stitch01]

Im in the minority that would be perfectly happy moving McCourty back to corner if we can upgrade the Steve Gregory spot.  I think McCourty is a good corner.

Edited by Stitch01, 05 February 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Shelterdog]

Im in the minority that would be perfectly happy moving McCourty back to corner if we can upgrade the Steve Gregory spot.  I think McCourty is a good corner.

 

I never had a big problem with McCourty at corner but I just want them to stop fucking tinkering and just get their guys, keep them in the same place and just keep playing them there.  It seems like players take a while to develop in the secondary and chemistry takes time as well, and every time you cut James Sanders, BMW or Darius Butler for, maybe, a marginal upgrade in Josh Barrett or Antwaun Molden your'e disrupting the growth of the the team. 

[dcmissle]

... and coaching them. The more dispiriting aspect of the past 3 weeks was watching what Dean Pees was able to accomplish with a not-much-better crew defensively. The churning is not working, nor is throwing more draft resources into what clearly has become the black hole of this franchise.

[Super Nomario]

Unfortunately there is no other option on par with Talib.  He's probably going to be the most talented free agent DB by far (Goldson and Baird are good but they're getting franchised, Grimes is good but he's coming off of a torn ACL; nobody else comes to mind as an equally talented player).

Grimes tore his achilles in week 1. It might take him a while to get back to 100%, but I think adding another corner is a move for the playoffs anyway. They can win 10-11 games with what they have.

Edited by Super Nomario, 05 February 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[bakahump]

If he isnt a good bet for a LT contract (and I will take their word combined with this year and his long term history that he isnt...) then a Franchise seems like a bad idea.

 

You and I think the Franch is great. "Damn 10 million for 1 year! Nice"  Players (as we have constantly seen) see it as some kind of degrading reserve clause pulling a valuable year out of the limited time they have to make coin. It doesnt make them Happy or content or willing to work with the team.

 

If AT "refused voluntary stuff" THIS year imagine what he does next year when he doesnt even have to pretend to be a good soldier. He says "screw that.....you guys hosed me with the BS Franchise tag....I was only here for 8 games and you Franchise me? Please!.....I could be on a huge multiyear deal if not for that BS move. I am not doing a thing extra."

And As long as he does just enough for BB to keep him in the rotation...and as long as he plays up to 80% of is ability he will look like the best DB on the Pats (ok on par with McC) and will be able to get that big contract 1 year later. (assuming his even shittier behavior keeps the pats from a second Franchise.)

 

Franchise here seems like just asking for Adalius Thomas (AT) 2.

Edited by bakahump, 05 February 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[Harry Hooper]

"passed on the chance to do extra work at times this year" 

 

Talib was pretty banged up while with the Pats, so this could just be negotiating blather.

Edited by Harry Hooper, 05 February 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Scoops Bolling]

"passed on the chance to do extra work at times this year" 

 

Talib was pretty banged up while with the Pats, so this could just be negotiating blather.

Extra work could, and likely is, time studying film and related "study" work, not physical work. His injury status is unlikely to have played a role.

[Dgilpin]

Unfortunately there is no other option on par with Talib.  He's probably going to be the most talented free agent DB by far (Goldson and Baird are good but they're getting franchised, Grimes is good but he's coming off of a torn ACL; nobody else comes to mind as an equally talented player).

Not that I would want to see him go, but Chris Houston is a free agent for the Lions this season. He has been an above average corner the last 2 seasons, but given the Lions cap situation and number of free agents it might be difficult to bring him back.

[Harry Hooper]

Extra work could, and likely is, time studying film and related "study" work, not physical work. His injury status is unlikely to have played a role.

 

That's possible, but if so what an indictment of the secondary: the guy not doing his homework is head-and-shoulders better than the other guys.

[Ed Hillel]

 
I'd say the fact that Brady and Co. sucked out loud played a bigger role. But, yeah, if Talib isn't brought back again, then we're back to Square 1.

Would you pay a guy with Talib's injury an off-field history top dollars for a multi-year deal? It would be nice to have a guy with his talent, sure, but what can you do? I agree with Shelter, you franchise him, unless he takes less money for more years. Even that's a significant risk, though. He may get pissed, hit a child, and get suspended for the entire year. Or he may hold out.

I'm hesitant to give that money to Welker, but at least with him you know what you get and you know he'll show up.

[Mystic Merlin]

That's possible, but if so what an indictment of the secondary: the guy not doing his homework is head-and-shoulders better than the other guys.

 

He's not, though, as SN and other film guys (Bedard, for one) have noted.

[Super Nomario]

We'll see-I could obviously be wrong but I think Talib gets 4/40-45 million, $20+ guaranteed if he hits the open market and I'm not willing to compete with that.

 

I think this is probably right. Jason McCourty signed for 5 years, $43 MM ($20 MM guaranteed). The market for corners is crazy.

 

I never had a big problem with McCourty at corner but I just want them to stop fucking tinkering and just get their guys, keep them in the same place and just keep playing them there.  It seems like players take a while to develop in the secondary and chemistry takes time as well, and every time you cut James Sanders, BMW or Darius Butler for, maybe, a marginal upgrade in Josh Barrett or Antwaun Molden your'e disrupting the growth of the the team. 

First, injuries are a factor in the "tinkering:" Bodden was supposed to be a key guy in 2010 and 2011 and basically missed both seasons. Dowling and Barrett were day 1 starters in 2011 and ended up on IR; Chung also missed a big chunk of time that season. Gregory and Chung's injuries necessitated some reshuffling this year, as did Talib's and Dennard's.

 

Second, these are kind of weird examples; have any of these guys done anything since leaving? Are you advocating the Patriots should re-sign Chung and Cole this offseason for continuity's sake? I think the problem with the secondary over the past five years is that the players aren't good enough. In an ideal world you have talent and continuity, but if you've got a talent deficiency you can't fix it by just leaving the same inadequate players in place.

[RedOctober3829]

Franchise him and you have another year to think about re-signing him long term.  They have to have somebody of his caliber.  McCourty is more valuable as a safety.

[Dgilpin]

Franchise him and you have another year to think about re-signing him long term.  They have to have somebody of his caliber.  McCourty is more valuable as a safety.

Any idea on what the franchise number for a CB will be this season?

[Jeff Van GULLY]

Any idea on what the franchise number for a CB will be this season?

It's the average of top 5 salaries at position.  Looks like it will be over $10 million again.  Same as Brent Grimes last season.

[maufman]

Any idea on what the franchise number for a CB will be this season?

 

A hair under $10.7mm, according to NFL.com.

[PedroKsBambino]

Chris Gamble may be a cap casualty in Carolina; one never knows if it'll happen (vs restructuring) but in terms of 'potential options' he'd seem to be another.

[Shelterdog]

I think this is probably right. Jason McCourty signed for 5 years, $43 MM ($20 MM guaranteed). The market for corners is crazy.

 

First, injuries are a factor in the "tinkering:" Bodden was supposed to be a key guy in 2010 and 2011 and basically missed both seasons. Dowling and Barrett were day 1 starters in 2011 and ended up on IR; Chung also missed a big chunk of time that season. Gregory and Chung's injuries necessitated some reshuffling this year, as did Talib's and Dennard's.

 

Second, these are kind of weird examples; have any of these guys done anything since leaving? Are you advocating the Patriots should re-sign Chung and Cole this offseason for continuity's sake? I think the problem with the secondary over the past five years is that the players aren't good enough. In an ideal world you have talent and continuity, but if you've got a talent deficiency you can't fix it by just leaving the same inadequate players in place.

 

Talent is certainly the biggest problem and injuries are also definitely a factor but if we're talking about what to do with subpar players I much prefer the continuity to roster churn (which, incidentally, is what they do on the offensive line).  If you want to upgrade Darius Butler, James Sanders and BMW (who have all started at times since we cut them) be my guest and go get a first round pick or a proven free agent who is actually likely to be a material upgrade rather than hoping waiver wire/minimum salary guys (Molden, Ihedigbo, and Barrett) will be an improvement.   

 

What would I do for next year's club? I franchise Talib, I am willing to slightly overpay Cole and Arrington (Arrington may be shockingly expensive and I'm not going more than maybe $2 million per year for him), I keep Talib, Dennard, McCourty, and Gregory in their current positions.  If Wilson (or Ebner, though I doubt it) can displace a starter, fine.  Chung has been hurt too much too count on so bye bye. 

[maufman]

Talent is certainly the biggest problem and injuries are also definitely a factor but if we're talking about what to do with subpar players I much prefer the continuity to roster churn (which, incidentally, is what they do on the offensive line).  If you want to upgrade Darius Butler, James Sanders and BMW (who have all started at times since we cut them) be my guest and go get a first round pick or a proven free agent who is actually likely to be a material upgrade rather than hoping waiver wire/minimum salary guys (Molden, Ihedigbo, and Barrett) will be an improvement.   

 

What would I do for next year's club? I franchise Talib, I am willing to slightly overpay Cole and Arrington (Arrington may be shockingly expensive and I'm not going more than maybe $2 million per year for him), I keep Talib, Dennard, McCourty, and Gregory in their current positions.  If Wilson (or Ebner, though I doubt it) can displace a starter, fine.  Chung has been hurt too much too count on so bye bye. 

 

Budget-wise, does this plan require the Pats to let Welker walk without signing a comparably talented replacement?

[Super Nomario]

Talent is certainly the biggest problem and injuries are also definitely a factor but if we're talking about what to do with subpar players I much prefer the continuity to roster churn (which, incidentally, is what they do on the offensive line).  If you want to upgrade Darius Butler, James Sanders and BMW (who have all started at times since we cut them) be my guest and go get a first round pick or a proven free agent who is actually likely to be a material upgrade rather than hoping waiver wire/minimum salary guys (Molden, Ihedigbo, and Barrett) will be an improvement.   

 

What would I do for next year's club? I franchise Talib, I am willing to slightly overpay Cole and Arrington (Arrington may be shockingly expensive and I'm not going more than maybe $2 million per year for him), I keep Talib, Dennard, McCourty, and Gregory in their current positions.  If Wilson (or Ebner, though I doubt it) can displace a starter, fine.  Chung has been hurt too much too count on so bye bye. 

The comparison to the O-line is a chicken / egg thing. Did they keep continuity as a matter of philosophy, or because those guys were good? I suspect the latter; for instance, when Stephen Neal retired, they signed Brian Waters rather than just hand the job to Dan Connolly.

 

Butler was going to be a fifth corner and provided no special teams value. He was replaced by Molden who plays on special teams. He's since been part of two bottom-five pass defenses, getting cut again in the process. Sanders and Meriweather both were going to cost for mediocre performance; they were basically in the same position that Chung is in now. They've also both been cut subsequently. The Pats also added Dowling, a high draft pick, and Bodden, a proven veteran returning from injury. Neither of those guys worked out, obviously, but it's not like they strictly made end-of-roster moves.

 

I don't mind your secondary plan, by the way, though that's a lot of money to spend on Talib.

 

EDIT: I'm not defending the decision to go into 2011 with Josh Barrett and Sergio Brown combining for one of the safety spots ... I don't know what that was about.

Edited by Super Nomario, 05 February 2013 - 08:06 PM.

[SeoulSoxFan]

Sounds like a PR ploy to me to have this leaked. Otherwise, we wouldn't hear a single bleep about Talib's work ethics.

Having said that, I'd take a Grimes coming off injury than Talib coming off injury+ suspension risk+any real motivational issue when it's a long term deal.

Franchise Talib, sign WW to a 3 year deal with $15m guaranteed, see if market sees Vollmer as a RT or LT.

[mulluysavage]

What is "extra" work if you are going to be held accountable and offered a lesser deal for not doing it? Sounds kind of like required work to me.

[SeoulSoxFan]

What is "extra" work if you are going to be held accountable and offered a lesser deal for not doing it? Sounds kind of like required work to me.

 

Have you been following Patriots long?

[Shelterdog]

Budget-wise, does this plan require the Pats to let Welker walk without signing a comparably talented replacement?

 

Quite possibly.  Unless you extend Brady you don't have a ton of cap space, so there's a good chance you only get one of Vollmer, Talib and Welker.  

 

I do think you might be able to get Welker at a shockingly low price (3/18 or something) later in free agency because everybody wants big fast receivers and he's a little slow guy with a lot of miles on the tire so there's some hope we luck out and get him back if we don't franchise him. 

[Tyrone Biggums]

CB is such a critical position that I wouldn't have an issue with them putting the franchise tag on Talib. This is the one team that has found creative ways to stretch the cap and I don't think this year will be any different. The last time this team lost in the AFC Title game they went crazy in the offseason and signed or traded for a whole new receiving core...nothing is out of the realm of possibility.