2437 replies to this topic

[Super Nomario]

It's a totally different call on 4th down than an earlier down.  

Why?

[PedroKsBambino]

 

 

 

You guys need to re-watch the replay.  It wasn't a great throw but the ball was catchable.  Crabtree only missed it by about 2 feet.

 

Edit: 2 feet might be a little generous but it doesn't change the point that the ball was catchable without the contact.  (Not saying there should have been a flag.  Am saying that uncatchable is 100% incorrect.)

 

Agreed, there are a few ways to defend that call but 'not catchable' is a major, major stretch...in part because you have to figure in that Crabtree would be a couple feet deeper without the hold, and that is what an 'uncatchable' determination must assume (e..g where would receiver be without the interference)

[RedOctober3829]

My thing with the playcalling in the goal-to-go is this:  If you are Greg Roman, you have to know the Ravens will bring pressure from all areas every down inside the 10 AND you know they are looking for a Kaepernick run.  Why not run something that will take advantage of their aggressiveness?  Something like a shuttle pass or a screen/swing pass to an RB?  A quick out not in the end zone against man coverage does nothing and that fade route is so hit or miss.  If you want to run the fade, at least do it to Moss.  I can see why they didn't because he hadn't shown much fight to get the ball.  But, man use their aggressiveness to your advantage.

Edited by RedOctober3829, 04 February 2013 - 10:59 AM.

[BigSoxFan]

My thing with the playcalling in the goal-to-go is this:  If you are Greg Roman, you have to know the Ravens will bring pressure from all areas every down inside the 10 AND you know they are looking for a Kaepernick run.  Why not run something that will take advantage of their aggressiveness?  Something like a shuttle pass or a screen/swing pass to an RB?  A quick out not in the end zone against man coverage does nothing and that fade route is so hit or miss.  If you want to run the fade, at least do it to Moss.  I can see why they didn't because he hadn't shown much fight to get the ball.  But, man use their aggressiveness to your advantage.

 

Yup. The Niners basically had the Ravens' defensive playcall, yet, they called some really awful plays. I would have tried keeping 2 RBs in the backfield and splitting one of them out on a dumpoff.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Ball was thrown out of bounds and the receiver ran straight into the CB, the ball was on the 5. I can't see how that is interference. It was a lousy playcall, what other options did Kaepernick have on that play?

 

It's not PI, it's defensive holding. LOS was the 5, the DB was holding the receiver well into the end zone.

 

Catchability of the ball only applies for PI calls, not defensive holding. Ball doesn't even have to be thrown for the defensive holding call to be made, remember Willie's hold on Faulk in SB 36 on the Tebucky TD return?

[Philip Jeff Frye]

If we're talking what if's why are you missing the huge what if, of what if there wasn't a massive momentum changing lights-out break right after the Ravens sacked Kaep?  Clearly that gave the 49ers time to regroup, and the Ravens lost whatever pressure they were exerting.

It was almost certainly helpful that the 49ers had some time to recover emotionally from the shock of the kickoff return, but on the other hand, how much worse would the Baltimore defense have been without what basically amounted to an extra 35 minutes of half time?  They looked gassed in the 4th quarter as it was.

[PedroKsBambino]

It's not PI, it's defensive holding. LOS was the 5, the DB was holding the receiver well into the end zone.

 

Catchability of the ball only applies for PI calls, not defensive holding. Ball doesn't even have to be thrown for the defensive holding call to be made, remember Willie's hold on Faulk in SB 36 on the Tebucky TD return?

 

Though, you can't call holding once the ball is in the air---then it is a question of PI and catchability.  Since there's some question about the timing, it is a part of the discussion I believe.

[RedOctober3829]

Though, you can't call holding once the ball is in the air---then it is a question of PI and catchability.  Since there's some question about the timing, it is a part of the discussion I believe.

You can call holding when the ball is in the air.

[tims4wins]

It's come out afterward that they had a run play for Kaep called on 2nd down, before the delay of game/time out.  They changed it after the TO, no idea why.  The 4th down play was also not called by the coaches, that was an audible by Kaep because he saw the blitz coming.

Maybe because they were down to one timeout left

[loshjott]

Why?

 Because the QB can airmail the ball through the uprights on an earlier down and regroup for the next play - what every coach tells the QB to do in that situation at the goal line. On 4th, of course, he can't do it and has to do more thinking/reacting in that split second to save the play.

[DrewDawg]

Can we get rid of the idea that ball was not catchable, or thrown too far out of bounds?  Would he have caught it?  Maybe, maybe not.  But with another step or two it wouldn't exactly have been the greatest catch of all time.

 

 

Secondly, Pees said last night that the blitz call on 4th down was the exact same call in Super Bowl 42.  With, obviously, a different outcome.

Edited by DrewDawg, 04 February 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[tims4wins]

 Because the QB can airmail the ball through the uprights on an earlier down and regroup for the next play - what every coach tells the QB to do in that situation at the goal line. On 4th, of course, he can't do it and has to do more thinking/reacting in that split second to save the play.

Except if you're Tom Brady in Seattle

[DaughtersofDougMirabelli]

This was definitely a worse no call then the defensive holding/PI:

 

[DrewDawg]

This was definitely a worse no call then the defensive holding/PI:

 

 

Yeah, if you say he didn't catch that ball, then it's a hit on a defenseless receiver. 

[PedroKsBambino]

You can call holding when the ball is in the air.

 

I'm not sure about that as to the intended receiver, actually.  I've always seen and heard it explained that PI rule supercedes holding once ball is in the air.  PI rule states this is when it comes into play, and has a greater penalty---holding rule doesn't specify this, however.

 

I have seen holding called on someone other than the intended receiver; that may be because PI cannot be called on that contact since the pass is, as to another receiver, generally uncatchable.

Edited by PedroKsBambino, 04 February 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Kinda makes the choice to go back to Crabtree on the next play curious. Had to figure his bell was rung pretty good. Moss and Davis were fine targets to look to.

[trekfan55]

Maybe because they were down to one timeout left

They had time.  Maybe they changed the play because the defense would be ready for it (it seems they had been caught off guard the first time around).

 

One thing they do need to work in the offseason is how to get these plays off quickly, otherwise the effectiveness of the Pistol will be off.

 

As a Niner fan I was very frustrated but I was in a much better mood than I expected to be.  Maybe because they were having their asses handed to them in the first half,not only did CK look lost but the defense was awful, missing tackles and not making the plays.  At that point I had already said to myself that this was not their game, and when they allowed a kickoff return for a TD (from 8 yards deep in the endzone to boot) I simply sat down and said "screw it".  Then the barrage started.

 

As we all know, it is extremely hard to make the Super Bowl in today's NFL, let's hope this team gets another chance.

[Al Zarilla]

The early momentum changer was LaMichael James' fumble. Sure, the ball was punched out by a Ravens guy, but he has to have both hands on the ball there, being stopped from any further yardage gain. James got only one carry the rest of the game, surprisingly on first and goal from the 7 on the last drive. James' fumble sticks in my mind as the fuckup of the game, or at least of the first half. Rookie mistake. Culliver got roasted by the CSNBA guys the most though. 

[RedOctober3829]

I'm not sure about that as to the intended receiver, actually.  I've always seen and heard it explained that PI rule supercedes holding once ball is in the air.  PI rule states this is when it comes into play, and has a greater penalty---holding rule doesn't specify this, however.

 

I have seen holding called on someone other than the intended receiver; that may be because PI cannot be called on that contact since the pass is, as to another receiver, generally uncatchable.

Yes, holding on other WRs away from the play can be called at any time regardless of where the ball is in the air.

[NortheasternPJ]

Kinda makes the choice to go back to Crabtree on the next play curious. Had to figure his bell was rung pretty good. Moss and Davis were fine targets to look to.

 

Watching it reminded me of Brady going right back to Hernandez after he got his bell rung and it changed the game. 

[Remagellan]

On Mike and Mike this morning, Chris Carter said the fault for the noncall was on Crabtree.  The moment a receiver sees it's a zero blitz and the defender has taken an inside position, as Smith did to cut off the slant, the receiver should speed to the pylon and get outside the defender's hips, because if the receiver stays squared up on the shoulders with the defender he is going to initiate contact with the defender and get into a lot of hand fighting, and the ref will never call a penalty in that instance if they're both being physical with each other.  

[PedroKsBambino]

Yes, holding on other WRs away from the play can be called at any time regardless of where the ball is in the air.

 

Agreed, but only on them...e.g. not (in this case) on Crabtree I don't believe

[octoberaroma]

The Monday morning quarterbacking looks to be in full swing today.

 

Congrats to the Ravens.  They kicked the shit out of some very good teams to get to the Superbowl and come out on top.

 

They're a tough, intimidating team whose QB has been on fire.

[trekfan55]

The early momentum changer was LaMichael James' fumble. Sure, the ball was punched out by a Ravens guy, but he has to have both hands on the ball there, being stopped from any further yardage gain. James got only one carry the rest of the game, surprisingly on first and goal from the 7 on the last drive. James' fumble sticks in my mind as the fuckup of the game, or at least of the first half. Rookie mistake. Culliver got roasted by the CSNBA guys the most though. 

 

I agree.  That play actually took the momentum away from the Niners (who had just stopped the fake FG attempt) and gave it right back to the Ravens, who scored a TD.

 

While that was big time fuck up by a rookie, Culliver screwed up multiple times and I do not think he will be with the team anymore, which may explain why he was roasted so much more (his anti gay comments also do not help his cause).

[tims4wins]

The Monday morning quarterbacking looks to be in full swing today.

 

Congrats to the Ravens.  They kicked the shit out of some very good teams to get to the Superbowl and come out on top.

 

They're a tough, intimidating team whose QB has been on fire.

At the end of the day they held 15+ point leads in 3 of their 4 wins. Not too shabby.

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Everybody bitching about the playcall on fourth down ... I'm pretty sure the fade was not the actual play call.  Baltimore blitzed and SF didn't properly pick it up, and I think Kaep just threw the ball toward the corner of the endzone to avoid a sack, hoping Crabtree could make a play on the ball.  If he had tried to do anything else there it would have been an easy sack.

 

Granted, the playcalling on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down WAS terrible.

 

Exactly.

 

The big problem on this play was that Frank Gore didn't pick up the blitz correctly (I suspect Kaepernick might have called the wrong protection at the line).  They had six blockers for six rushers, but Gore initially moves to his right, thinking that's where the overload will be, and can't get back in time, leaving Ellerbe to come through untouched.  Under those circumstances, Kaepernick made the correct kind of throw - to the outside shoulder of the singled-up receiver (there was inside help on that side), but Crabtree didn't do a very good job of immediately adjusting to the hot route to create a race to the corner and then he got held once there was contact.

 

As far as the criticism of the previous playcalling, I think a lot of that is overstated as well.  They rolled Kaepernick out with an option to throw or run.  It didn't work but that's a pretty defensible idea, putting him into space and trying to stress the defense on the edges.  They also had a designed run type of play for Kaepernick on the play they didn't get off, another pretty solid call under the circumstances.  I think the big problem was just execution - having to use the second timeout was a killer, especially given that they had a good play called, and they allowed the Ravens to time every blitz by letting the play clock run down to near zero.

 

Anyway, congrats to the Ravens.  I think the refs probably should have thrown flags on both 3rd and 4th down but that's just the capriciousness of football.  At the end of the day, the Ravens beat what many people (including myself) considered to be the three best teams in football on the way to the title and none of those wins were cheap.  To me, they were the better team on the field each of those three Sundays.  I don't like their fans and I really don't like Ray Lewis or Bernard Pollard.  But there are a lot of people in that organization that handle themselves with class and deserved a ring, from the players (Reed, Boldin, Ngata) to the front office (Newsome), so I really don't feel too upset about how things worked out.

Edited by Morgan's Magic Snowplow, 04 February 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[bosockboy]

 
I agree.  That play actually took the momentum away from the Niners (who had just stopped the fake FG attempt) and gave it right back to the Ravens, who scored a TD.
 
While that was big time fuck up by a rookie, Culliver screwed up multiple times and I do not think he will be with the team anymore, which may explain why he was roasted so much more (his anti gay comments also do not help his cause).

The missing piece for SF is Revis and I suspect that might happen.

[Old Fart Tree]

 
Anyway, congrats to the Ravens.  I think the refs probably should have thrown flags on both 3rd and 4th down but that's just the capriciousness of football.  At the end of the day, the Ravens beat what many people (including myself) considered to be the three best teams in football on the way to the title and none of those wins were cheap.  To me, they were the better team on the field each of those three Sundays.  I don't like their fans and I really don't like Ray Lewis or Bernard Pollard.  But there are a lot of people in that organization that handle themselves with class and deserved a ring, from the players (Reed, Boldin, Ngata) to the front office (Newsome), so I really don't feel too upset about how things worked out.

This is where I am. I don't like them and I think the Niners got boned over on third and fourth, but they beat the teams they had to.

[loshjott]

This is where I am. I don't like them and I think the Niners got boned over on third and fourth, but they beat the teams they had to.

 

Yeah, and anything that enrages Steelers fans can't be all bad.

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Yeah, and anything that enrages Steelers fans can't be all bad.

Eh, I know some Steeler fans who didn't want the Niners matching their 6 superbowl championships.

[teddykgb]

I still can't figure out how Jacoby Jones isn't the MVP.  Long TD catch and a return TD, both huge momentum plays in the game, and the TD was a hell of a play by him since the ball was so underthrown he fell down trying to stop to catch it, but he still got in the end zone.  I mean it's funny to think that Flacco gets to claim MVP in his contract discussions, but there's no way he was the MVP of that game.

[steveluck7]

I still can't figure out how Jacoby Jones isn't the MVP.  Long TD catch and a return TD, both huge momentum plays in the game, and the TD was a hell of a play by him since the ball was so underthrown he fell down trying to stop to catch it, but he still got in the end zone.  I mean it's funny to think that Flacco gets to claim MVP in his contract discussions, but there's no way he was the MVP of that game.

The most underrate thing Jones did was take a touchback. 

The kick after he made his return TD, he took another one out of the endzone and got destroyed by Walker. He somehow held on to the ball.  The fllowing kickoff? Touchback. He knew the way momentum was swinging, knew he was tempting fate and made the mature decision

[dynomite]

I still can't figure out how Jacoby Jones isn't the MVP.  Long TD catch and a return TD, both huge momentum plays in the game, and the TD was a hell of a play by him since the ball was so underthrown he fell down trying to stop to catch it, but he still got in the end zone.  I mean it's funny to think that Flacco gets to claim MVP in his contract discussions, but there's no way he was the MVP of that game.

 
Yes, Super Bowl MVP awards are silliness.  Hell, fan vote counts for 20% of the tally. I think you could make an equally legitimate argument for Boldin being the MVP, by the way.
 
The good news: no one remembers or cares about Super Bowl MVPs other than the individual player, their family, their agent, and the team's fans.
 
For example: QUICK DON'T LOOK ON THE INTERNET: Name the Super Bowl MVPs in the last two Super Bowls the Steelers won (2005, 2008).

 

Spoiler

Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes.  Good for them.

Edited by dynomite, 04 February 2013 - 03:37 PM.

[JerBear]

Without looking

Spoiler

Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes

I am kind of a stat/info nerd though.

Edited by JerBear, 04 February 2013 - 03:50 PM.

[Dollar]

Can we get rid of the idea that ball was not catchable, or thrown too far out of bounds?  Would he have caught it?  Maybe, maybe not.  But with another step or two it wouldn't exactly have been the greatest catch of all time.

 

Exactly.  You can't possibly argue that the ball was uncatchable when we saw this just a few short years ago.

 

 

 

Whether or not it should have been called, I'm not sure.  The refs were swallowing their whistles all night on close plays like that, and most of us here tend to want games to be called consistently from the opening kickoff to the final whistle.  In a vacuum, I'd say it should have been defensive holding, but I'm not really upset about it because the game was called in a similar fashion all night.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Second foot STILL isn't down. Pisses me off to this day.

[RedOctober3829]

Can you tailgate at the Super Bowl without tickets?

[coremiller]

Other than the 4th down, to me this was the biggest missed call of the game: