589 replies to this topic

[The Legendary WOTR]

Tim Ohlbrecht received a 10-day contract offer from the Boston Celtics but the German big man elected to turn it down, his agent Tyler Glass told Sportando.

http://www.sportando.../eng/usa/nba/51 ... ltics.html

[Koufax]

There must be another team in the hunt for him.  Why else would he stay in the D League?

[Koufax]

Instead of Collins or in addition to? I don't really understand this unless there are about 4 UFAs that Danny wants, Wilcox has actually shown some flashes of being half decent and had some contributions on the court unlike Collins ever did.

Instead of Collins. 

 

My apoligies for the ambiguity.  I hate when that happens.

[Brickowski]

Tim Ohlbrecht received a 10-day contract offer from the Boston Celtics but the German big man elected to turn it down, his agent Tyler Glass told Sportando.

http://www.sportando.../eng/usa/nba/51 ... ltics.html

Meh.  There are other guys, e.g. Brian Butch (Stiemsma clone, at least in appearance), Sean Williams, Hilton Armstrong, etc. Maybe not everyone is a free agent.

 

Anyone know about this kid Arinze Onuaku?  I've probably seen him play, but I just don't remember.  He averages 12 and 10 in 22 minutes for the Canton Charge, and half his rebounds are offensive.  D-league all-star, 26 years old, played at Syracuse, then Europe.  Had some knee issues, but looks like a horse.

Edited by Brickowski, 22 February 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[Koufax]

Is Jerome Jordan a free agent or his he still tied to the Knicks?  He's a 7-footer and has at least played some minutes in the NBA.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Meh.  There are other guys, e.g. Brian Butch (Stiemsma clone, at least in appearance), Sean Williams, Hilton Armstrong, etc. Maybe not everyone is a free agent.
 
Anyone know about this kid Arinze Onuaku?  I've probably seen him play, but I just don't remember.  He averages 12 and 10 in 22 minutes for the Canton Charge, and half his rebounds are offensive.  D-league all-star, 26 years old, played at Syracuse, then Europe.  Had some knee issues, but looks like a horse.

Solid college player, especially his jr-sr years (he had redshirted, think he was older than his peers). He go hurt in the big east tourney which really crewed cuse that year, team was good enough to win it all. He was always hurt, awful free throw shooter, but knew his shot from the field and didt try to do too much. Could he help an NBA team? Eh, I kind of doubt it.

[dolomite133]

Brick joins the Onuaku train. It's gaining steam and not stopping until it reaches Boston.

 

O-Nu-A-Ku

 

Clap clap clapclapclap

 

O-Nu-A-Ku

 

Clap clap clapclapclap

[Brickowski]

LOL, I have no idea if Onuaku is any good.  But the numbers say he can rebound.

Maybe the Patriots would have interest.  6-9, 275.

[Blacken]

Obviously one game, against a team as bad as Phoenix no less, is not enough to say...but that was a really good first show by Crawford. I like his shot and he was willing to move the ball more than I'd expect from a guy with his reputation.

[Brickowski]

Obviously one game, against a team as bad as Phoenix no less, is not enough to say...but that was a really good first show by Crawford. I like his shot and he was willing to move the ball more than I'd expect from a guy with his reputation.

I liked what I saw too.  He passed the ball.   

[knucklecup]

Again, he's a good player.  I think we'll be pleasantly surprised with him.

[knucklecup]

So not even trying to be a dick here but Toronto is 7-3 with Gay, and two of those losses were tough home defeats in barn burner games against Miami and Boston.

Who's ready to admit they were wrong about Rudy Gay being the worst player in the NBA?

[slamminsammya]

So not even trying to be a dick here but Toronto is 7-3 with Gay, and two of those losses were tough home defeats in barn burner games against Miami and Boston.

Who's ready to admit they were wrong about Rudy Gay being the worst player in the NBA?

 

Dude is shooting 39 pct. from the field and 27 pct from three with Toronto. I am not familiar with whatever disagreement you are referring to here but Gay's numbers don't seem to support your cause.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

knucklecup, on 23 Feb 2013 - 09:21, said:
So not even trying to be a dick here but Toronto is 7-3 with Gay, and two of those losses were tough home defeats in barn burner games against Miami and Boston.

Who's ready to admit they were wrong about Rudy Gay being the worst player in the NBA?

You've honestly ignored the entire context of the discussion that we had about Rudy Gay and turned my stance into "Rudy Gay is the worst player in the NBA"? But, since you brought it up, here's what's happened since the trade:

Rudy Gay has put up the following stats:

TS% of .471
eFG% of .420
FG% of 39%
3P% of 27%
PPG: 21.4

Prior to the trade, he put up:


TS% of .478
eFG% of .438
FG% of 40.8%
3P% of 31%
PPG: 17.2

So, why is he scoring more? His usage rate has increased by 5%.

Meanwhile, here are Toronto's team numbers after the trade:

eFG%: 48.2%
Points per 100 possessions: 103.8

Before the trade, here were Toronto's numbers:

eFG%: 49.1%
Points per 100 possessions: 103.9

Here are Memphis's pre-trade numbers:

eFG%: 46.3%
Points per 100 possessions: 100.0

Since the trade:

eFG%: 49.9%
Point per 100 possessions: 104.3

Now, what about those numbers indicates that my stance is/was unreasonable? I don't think Rudy Gay is a max contract player. I think he's an inefficient scorer who, while capable of having great games (like last night), takes bad shots, shoots poorly, and doesn't add enough value in other areas to make up for his inefficient scoring. I think Memphis did very well to get rid of his contract, and the early returns indicate that they haven't suffered from losing him. Meanwhile, despite Toronto's 7-3 record since the trade, I still don't think they're a contender. Nor does anybody else. I think the Rudy Gay trade gave them an expensive roster with a first round playoff exit ceiling, and I don't think that's something you should strive for in the NBA. My position isn't at all unreasonable. I don't know why you keep acting like it is.

Edit: To underline Gay's efficiency, I just looked it up, and he's scored 214 points since joining Toronto. And he's needed 239 shots to do so. For reference, during that same period of time, LeBron James has scored 360 points on 163 shots. Danillo Gallinari, who makes half of what Rudy Gay does, has scored 192 points in his last 10 games on 136 shots. Gay needed 100 more possessions to outscore Gallinari by 22 points. 

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 23 February 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[BigSoxFan]

Yeah, I'm with Grin on this one. Rudy Gay scores with the efficiency of an Antoine Walker and adds very little value outside of scoring. He's certainly a useful player but he's not good value for his salary. He's only got 2 years left on his deal after this year so it's not a franchise-crippling contract but Toronto will have little success of doing anything roster-wise with his salary. They've been practically begging someone to take Bargnani off their hands with no luck.

[knucklecup]

It's unreasonable because Toronto has no chance to attract max caliber players (even if he's in the Josh Smith category of max level players) unless they do it this way.

The argument that DeRozan and him can't co exist is silly because we all know they have no chance as presently constructed to win a title, in which case, you do whatever the hell you can to gather assets, and Gay is certainly one of them.

We all know what Rudy Gay brings to the table. The difference in his shooting percentages are largely irrelevant to the point I've been making from day one.

You can say that I'm ignoring your argument, but I don't feel as if I am. I just don't think you have a leg to stand on with what you're presenting.

Again, the "he was batting 295 before the trade, now he's batting 300" doesn't do it for me, especially when his presence alone has brought new life to a team/franchise that has struggled to make noise since its birth. Just because you can't quantify that "presence" with numbers doesn't mean it isn't happening.

The fact of the matter is... You put as much weight into basketball advanced metrics as I do baseball, when it's foolish (in my opinion) to do so in the sport of basketball.

Doc had an interesting quote about Jeff Green's performance last night, saying something along the lines of "when he has his shot going like that, whoever is defending him is in for a long night."

So Johnson, Beasley, or whomever was guarding Green throughout the game will be penalized according to PER because Green got hot. If he hadnt shot well, they would have been praised.

How can you, someone who clearly follows basketball as much or more than I do, not see this Guinness Book of World Records sized elephant in the room when it comes to the statistics you've been utilizing in an attempt to discredit my argument?

You're a good dude which is why this truly bothers me that you could be so wrong in this instance (again, my opinion). When are you in Chicago? We need to get drinks and hash this out.

[knucklecup]

Yeah, I'm with Grin on this one. Rudy Gay scores with the efficiency of an Antoine Walker and adds very little value outside of scoring. He's certainly a useful player but he's not good value for his salary. He's only got 2 years left on his deal after this year so it's not a franchise-crippling contract but Toronto will have little success of doing anything roster-wise with his salary. They've been practically begging someone to take Bargnani off their hands with no luck.

I agree that he isn't an efficient scorer. The numbers state that he shoots a lot more shots than he makes. That isn't the argument that I'm making though.

I also agree that he's overpaid. But the same can be said for about 80% of the league, or just about any player not on their first contract. So I don't think this means much either.

Also in regards to being overpaid, what max caliber player (by current NBA standards) would sign in Toronto willingly? The answer is none. So they did what they could to get a piece to the puzzle.

In regards to Bargnani, that's not entirely true. His trade stock is at an all time low because of the public perception you see in this forum as well as the injury that has essentially cost him this season.

The Bulls were pleading for some kind of Boozer/Hamilton style of swap but nothing ever came of it because Toronto isn't as desperate to move him as you're stating they were. There is no harm in keeping him until the offseason, just like Atlanta wasn't going to rush into something that didn't help them long term when it comes to Smith.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

It's unreasonable because Toronto has no chance to attract max caliber players (even if he's in the Josh Smith category of max level players) unless they do it this way.

The argument that DeRozan and him can't co exist is silly because we all know they have no chance as presently constructed to win a title, in which case, you do whatever the hell you can to gather assets, and Gay is certainly one of them.

We all know what Rudy Gay brings to the table. The difference in his shooting percentages are largely irrelevant to the point I've been making from day one.

You can say that I'm ignoring your argument, but I don't feel as if I am. I just don't think you have a leg to stand on with what you're presenting.

Again, the "he was batting 295 before the trade, now he's batting 300" doesn't do it for me, especially when his presence alone has brought new life to a team/franchise that has struggled to make noise since its birth. Just because you can't quantify that "presence" with numbers doesn't mean it isn't happening.

The fact of the matter is... You put as much weight into basketball advanced metrics as I do baseball, when it's foolish (in my opinion) to do so in the sport of basketball.

Doc had an interesting quote about Jeff Green's performance last night, saying something along the lines of "when he has his shot going like that, whoever is defending him is in for a long night."

So Johnson, Beasley, or whomever was guarding Green throughout the game will be penalized according to PER because Green got hot. If he hadnt shot well, they would have been praised.

How can you, someone who clearly follows basketball as much or more than I do, not see this Guinness Book of World Records sized elephant in the room when it comes to the statistics you've been utilizing in an attempt to discredit my argument?

You're a good dude which is why this truly bothers me that you could be so wrong in this instance (again, my opinion). When are you in Chicago? We need to get drinks and hash this out.

 

That's the thing though: Gay isn't a max caliber player, and they could attract a player of his level by overpaying them, and still pay hypothetical player less than Gay makes. I get your stance, I really do, and I think there's even merit to the idea that the team and fan base is more energized since acquiring Gay, I just think that Colangelo made a deal to save his job, and did not have the best longterm interests of the franchise in mind. 

 

In my mind, they'd have been better off letting Calderon expire and giving more time to Ross. I just don't see enough upside in this deal for them to justify the cost. Further, the statistics I've mentioned aren't even particularly advanced. All they do is quantify how well Gay shoots and how many points per 100 possessions Toronto/Memphis have scored. I'm not sitting here pretending that advanced stats tell the entire story or that they're nearly as polished in the NBA as they are in baseball, but I do think there's things that can be taken from them, and dismissing them altogether seems rash to me. 

 

Ultimately though, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I totally get that you feel like he brings an unquantifiable value to the table, and I don't even discount that that's a real thing. I'm just not sure that said value does enough to make up for his bad tendencies and shooting, and I think that under this new CBA more than ever teams need to avoid these giant contracts, even if they have no history of attracting free agents and top flight talent. The big contracts strangle player movement under this CBA--which we just saw evidence of at the trade deadline--and Toronto now has one of the worst big contracts. 

 

But again, the real difference here comes from the basic fact that we have really divergent views on a basic level about what value Rudy Gay brings. So be it. Not the end of the world. 

 

And unfortunately, I'm not in Chicago much since switching jobs a year and a half back. But if you're ever in New York, I'll gladly get you drunk way more efficiently than Rudy Gay scores points in NBA basketball games. 

 

Edit: I think it's also important to point out that the bolded above isn't true. PER measures per minute offensive efficiency. What Jeff Green does has no bearing on Wes Johnson's PER. 

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 26 February 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[radsoxfan]

The argument that DeRozan and him can't co exist is silly because we all know they have no chance as presently constructed to win a title, in which case, you do whatever the hell you can to gather assets, and Gay is certainly one of them.
 

 

Rudy Gay, on his current contract, is the exact opposite of an asset. Memphis was smart to dump his contract.  Most teams in the league wouldn't accept Gay on their roster even if they didn't have to give up a single thing. He's far too expensive for the value he provides.  If Toronto acquired Gay because he is an asset and they think they can deal him for something good in the future, they are out of their minds.

[Brickowski]

Omni Casspi is hoping to get a buyout from the Cavs.  He's another guy with talent who appears to have lost his way.

[dolomite133]

Tim Ohlbrecht received a 10-day contract offer from the Boston Celtics but the German big man elected to turn it down, his agent Tyler Glass told Sportando.

http://www.sportando.../eng/usa/nba/51 ... ltics.html

 

Any update on why he said no to a 10-day NBA contract? I've never heard of a D-leaguer saying no before.

[BigSoxFan]

Any update on why he said no to a 10-day NBA contract? I've never heard of a D-leaguer saying no before.

 

I did some extensive Googling and couldn't come up with anything. I have no idea why a young European would waste away in the D-League instead of getting paid better in Europe and then reject a potential call-up. Either he expected an offer from another NBA team that fell through or he has some other personal reason to reject Boston. Or maybe he just loves the Rio Grande Valley.

[dolomite133]

Could he be pressing Boston to sign him for the remainder of the season? Or maybe another team promised him that. Weird.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

  Edit: To underline Gay's efficiency, I just looked it up, and he's scored 214 points since joining Toronto. And he's needed 239 shots to do so. For reference, during that same period of time, LeBron James has scored 360 points on 163 shots. Danillo Gallinari, who makes half of what Rudy Gay does, has scored 192 points in his last 10 games on 136 shots. Gay needed 100 more possessions to outscore Gallinari by 22 points. 

 

Without looking into this more, the only way this makes Toronto better is if the shots Gay is hosting up are better than the shots that would have gone up had he not been shooting (or if he wasn't on the team).  Maybe that's just an indictment of Toronto's roster-building more than a testament to Gays' talent.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

Any update on why he said no to a 10-day NBA contract? I've never heard of a D-leaguer saying no before.

 

Tim Ohlbrecht is German for Manny Ramirez.

[Caspir]

http://celticshub.co...r-from-celtics/

Seems like he thinks he can get a contract for the rest of the season. It's definitely speculation, but most likely he doesn't want ten days.

[Brickowski]

http://celticshub.co...r-from-celtics/

Seems like he thinks he can get a contract for the rest of the season. It's definitely speculation, but most likely he doesn't want ten days.

Looks like the Rockets are interested in Ohlbrecht.  I don't know if it's for the rest of the season or just 10 days.

[Smokey Joe]

Well that answers that question.

 

http://www.sbnation....rockets-dleague

[dolomite133]

Well that answers that question.

 

http://www.sbnation....rockets-dleague

 

Small chance this decision -- not to offer him a remainder of the season contract -- could come back to bite us in the ass. We need rebounding and size up front and we let this guy slip through our fingers for ... well, the possibility that someone else might fill that need at a later date? I guess we better hope DJ White (not exactly known for his rebounding a defense) contributes and takes some of the pressure/reduces some of the wear and tear on KG.

[Brickowski]

The Celtics have signed Shavlik Randolph to a 10-day.  He averaged 32-15 in 28 games for the Foshan Long Lions. 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

The Celtics have signed Shavlik Randolph to a 10-day.  He averaged 32-15 in 28 games for the Foshan Long Lions. 

 

I'd have to call that hitting bottom.  Randolph hasn't played in the Association in two years and he has played a grand total of 170 NBA minutes since the 06-07 season.

[Brickowski]

Terrence Williams has been signed for the rest of the year, and the C's may have an option for 2013-14.

Edited by Brickowski, 01 March 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[RedOctober3829]

Before the trade deadline passed, the Boston Celtics had one final
choice to make on the franchise's future: In a three-way deal that
would've secured Josh Smith and surrendered Paul Pierce to Dallas,
Atlanta wanted Boston's first-round draft pick, too.

The Celtics were in talks to send Paul Pierce to Dallas at the trade deadline. (AP)As
much as any of the proposed deals discussed in February, perhaps this
had been the closest Pierce had come to parting with the Celtics,
sources told Yahoo! Sports.

Dallas had constructed a package that included Jae Crowder, Brandan
Wright and Dahntay Jones to Atlanta, with the Mavericks and Hawks
exchanging positions in the 2013 NBA draft.

Nevertheless, Boston wouldn't relent on the pick and the deal died on
meeting-room grease boards in three cities. Celtics coach Doc Rivers has
always understood that general manager Danny Ainge's reshaping of the
roster is inevitable, but he's never been in a hurry to lord over a
rebuild.

http://sports.yahoo....-203043279.html

 

Apparently, this was the closest Ainge was to trading Pierce.

[mcpickl]

http://sports.yahoo....-203043279.html

 

Apparently, this was the closest Ainge was to trading Pierce.

I don't buy this one at all.

 

I usually like Adrians' stuff, but I can't imagine Dallas was going to be able to get Paul Pierce and only give up three role players, two who are free agents after the season, and move down a handful of spots in the draft.

 

Unless his point was this was the closest Pierce was to getting dealt, which was still nowhere near close at all.

[Brickowski]

I don't buy this one at all.

 

I usually like Adrians' stuff, but I can't imagine Dallas was going to be able to get Paul Pierce and only give up three role players, two who are free agents after the season, and move down a handful of spots in the draft.

 

Unless his point was this was the closest Pierce was to getting dealt, which was still nowhere near close at all.

Yes, it's Dallas that should have been giving the pick in this theoretical deal. 

 

Besides, every time I watch the Hawks play I thank my lucky stars that Josh Smith doesn't play for the Celtics.

[dhellers]

Yes, it's Dallas that should have been giving the pick in this theoretical deal. 

 

Besides, every time I watch the Hawks play I thank my lucky stars that Josh Smith doesn't play for the Celtics.

It is possible, in a deep philosophical sense, that J Smith on a disciplined team -- one  with KG, PP, and RR running the show -- would learn when to keep it in his pants.

Or he would not be put in a situation where he is the deciderator.

But that means you got to have PP, KG, and RR!

 

IOW: getting rid of one of them to get JSmith is a dangerous thing.

Edited by dhellers, 08 March 2013 - 11:33 PM.

[dolomite133]

I don't buy this one at all.

 

I usually like Adrians' stuff, but I can't imagine Dallas was going to be able to get Paul Pierce and only give up three role players, two who are free agents after the season, and move down a handful of spots in the draft.

 

Unless his point was this was the closest Pierce was to getting dealt, which was still nowhere near close at all.

Almost positive Dallas would've included something like Kaman's expiring deal (which would have been shipped to Atlanta).

[mcpickl]

Almost positive Dallas would've included something like Kaman's expiring deal (which would have been shipped to Atlanta).

Of course, they'd have to so salaries would match, but that's not an asset. That's not a positive for Atlanta, that's just matching the money on Smiths' expiring deal.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

So not even trying to be a dick here but Toronto is 7-3 with Gay, and two of those losses were tough home defeats in barn burner games against Miami and Boston.

Who's ready to admit they were wrong about Rudy Gay being the worst player in the NBA?

 

Toronto's now 10-11 since the trade, they're scoring 2.7 points fewer per 100 possessions, and Rudy Gay is still shooting terribly. He's got a TS% of .460, an eFG% of .404%, and is shooting .235% from 3 but is still taking 4 a game. Toronto has gotten better with him, of course, but over 21 games they've shown that he makes them a fringe playoff contender (they are the 9 seed currently, and would be the 9 seed if they'd played at their post-trade level all season as well), and my point all along has been that it makes no sense to take on a contract like Gay's if he makes your ceiling a first round playoff exit. Meanwhile, Colangelo has compounded the issue by announcing that they intend to extend Gay's contract this offseason. And since the new CBA doesn't allow the average annual salary to be reduced, that means that they're just going to take his current deal and make it longer, which is truly baffling given how he's been playing. 

 

As for Memphis, they're 15-4 since the deal, beat the Clippers on the road last night, and are currently the 3 seed in the west. Their offensive efficiency has improved by 4.3 points per 100 possessions, not because Prince is better than Gay, but because 25% of their possessions aren't being used by Rudy Gay anymore. 

 

And I don't bring this up because I want to be right, or because the numbers seem to be leaning in my favor at this point, but rather because the subtext of our debate on Gay has basically been one of "advanced stats" vs. unquantifiable impact. And I think you've been overly dismissive of advanced stats and been too willing to completely ignore things like efficiency, which isn't even particularly advanced. I don't expect you to agree with me, but are you at least willing to acknowledge at this point that I have a leg to stand on? Last month, because of the Raptors record, you dismissed anything I said about Gay's numbers. Their record has since declined. Do you see where I'm coming from now?

[DannyDarwinism]

Gay's split season is actually a nice illustration of one of the main problems with PER- that it rewards usage disproportionately to efficiency.  His PER with Toronto is actually up from his half season with Memphis 14.7 from 14.1, this despite the fact that his eFG% is down to a remarkably craptacular 40.4% (for some context, Antoine Walker's worst eFG% in a season was during his last year, when he was at 44.4%.  Gay's assist% and rebound% are up slightly, but so is his turnover%.  The biggest mover for the increase in his PER is that he's taking 2.5 more shots per game with Toronto.  And with PER, as long as you hit 30.4% of your FGs and 21.4% of your threes, the more you shoot, the higher your PER.