31 replies to this topic

[Zomp]

http://www.youtube.c...&v=nXyqFZ_fghI#!


AC Milan were playing a friendly against a lower league Italian side when a bunch of Ultras came to the ground and began racist chanting. Boateng picks up the ball, kicks it at them, and walks off. The Milan and Pro Patria teams follow him off the field.

The chairman of the lower league side said that the Ultras weren't normal fans of the club, and the applauding of the fans make it seem like he's telling the truth.


I've confessed my love for KPB here before, but I'm glad to see him say "Fuck it" and walk off. Hopefully this will become the norm if racial abuse continues.




I'd go a step further and say points deductions should happen to clubs who have it happen inside their stadiums. That may seem drastic but it would certainly make the clubs stand up and take notice on who they allow to come in and watch the games.

[PedroSpecialK]

I'm with you - there needs to be something to get clubs and the FAs of countries like Italy, Poland, and eastern Europe in general to start treating racism amongst fans as a problem. Obviously as this was a friendly there's no ramifications for walking off, but point deductions, fines, and games behind closed doors seem like a good start for deterring this kind of behavior.

Goes without saying but good on KPB, Milan, and especially Pro Patria/the referee for walking off as well.

[Bosoxen]

This is, indeed, a very welcomed story. Like Zomp, I've always liked Boateng and I now like him that much more. Good on him and kudos to the teams for showing solidarity and walking off with him.

[Myt1]

Guys, what is the deal with the exaggerated pat on the shoulder some of the opponents were doing? I also saw it recently when a guy admitted a handball on a goal. Is it a pretty typical show of respect and does it ever/often get used mockingly?

[SoxFanInCali]

Great to see both teams walk off. It's ridiculous in 2013 this still happens.

The problem with threatening clubs with points deductions is that rival fans would start showing up in the teams colors and start chanting, hoping the team is punished.

Edited by SoxFanInCali, 03 January 2013 - 03:19 PM.

[soxfan121]

Awesome. It'll be even better when a club pulls all their players off the pitch in a game than means something. Good for KPB, good for Milan, good for soccer.

[BrazilianSoxFan]

Guys, what is the deal with the exaggerated pat on the shoulder some of the opponents were doing? I also saw it recently when a guy admitted a handball on a goal. Is it a pretty typical show of respect and does it ever/often get used mockingly?

Can't see the video right now, but if it's a pat on his own shoulder, and probably raising his arm before or after it, it's typically just a way of saying "Sorry, my fault".

Edit: just saw the video, and didn't see the gesture that I described, but I also didn't see any pat on the shoulder, just some half-hugs, arm-on-the-other's-shoulder kind of things.

Edit2: on a third view at around 30 secs the pro-patria number 5 pats Boateng on the shoulder. That's a "I'm sorry", "keep going", "I'm with you" kind of thing. Just a show of support.

Edited by BrazilianSoxFan, 03 January 2013 - 04:47 PM.

[Myt1]

Thanks. I think I saw it more repeatedly after Klose admitted to the handball and wondered if it was a common behavior.

Back on topic, can you guys walk me through your thinking in praising the walking off? It's admirable that the opposition did it if they did it in a show of solidarity. But the initial walk-off strikes me as exactly the opposite of the lionized behavior of black athletes fighting racism in US sports. I have only the vaguest understanding of racism in the world of soccer, though.

[soxfan121]

Thanks. I think I saw it more repeatedly after Klose admitted to the handball and wondered if it was a common behavior.

Back on topic, can you guys walk me through your thinking in praising the walking off? It's admirable that the opposition did it if they did it in a show of solidarity. But the initial walk-off strikes me as exactly the opposite of the lionized behavior of black athletes fighting racism in US sports. I have only the vaguest understanding of racism in the world of soccer, though.

[Vizzini]You are familiar with The Black Hole section in Oakland? The history of Philadelphia fan behavioral incidents (booing Santa, throwing batteries, etc.)?

Amateurs. [/Vizzini]

Fan behavior in some sections of some venues in Europe are like dystopian fiction come to life. And it has improved from the well-earned days that spawn the cliche of the "soccer hooligan". As the game has grown globally, leagues which have traditionally been filled with "local lads" have become more diverse. Add in the extant issues surrounding European history, immigration and class and you can have some very ugly environments. Recently, some "fans" of Ukranian club Zenit (a successful team that participates in continental tournaments on a regular basis) sent a letter demanding the exclusion of black (and gay) athletes. Players have been threatened. And there's violence - the recent beatings of Tottenham fans by Lazio fans in Rome are not uncommon enough.

Basically, fan behavior is different and the racial abuse is a particularly ugly subset of that behavior.

As for why I support Boateng & Milan...enough is enough. Buying a ticket to a match does not give an individual license to say or do things that are illegal outside the stadium. At least in England, there are stringent anti-racism laws enacted to deal with social problems that extend far from soccer stadiums. Boateng is a great player. That he happens to African shouldn't make a bit of difference. There's plenty of ways to express your distaste for the opposition without using racial taunts or slurs. Milan walking off and having the home team join them sends the message that the players will not tolerate this type of abuse any longer. And the reports of the OTHER fans applauding the players walking off is the best sign. The "silent majority" are going to be the real agents of change. When it becomes possible to drop $100/ticket and have the game called off because the assholes in section 202 are acting like racist fools...the regular fan will demand the security step up, the club step up and remove those troublemakers. By making it a general fan problem (which is what walking off does) hastens the day where the racists are either cowed into silence or removed from the stadium entirely.

[Zomp]

Thanks. I think I saw it more repeatedly after Klose admitted to the handball and wondered if it was a common behavior.

Back on topic, can you guys walk me through your thinking in praising the walking off? It's admirable that the opposition did it if they did it in a show of solidarity. But the initial walk-off strikes me as exactly the opposite of the lionized behavior of black athletes fighting racism in US sports. I have only the vaguest understanding of racism in the world of soccer, though.

I guess my thought process is he is taking a stand against that type of behaviour, and his teammates are as well. As soon as he hears the racist chanting, he picks up the ball and basically says. "Shows over". I'm not sure its appropriate to compare the fighting of racism in European soccer to what black athletes faced in America (I'm using past tense for what happened in America because I believe its a thing of the past, but I hope that doesn't come off as naive as I think it does).

95% of soccer fans know racism is wrong, but unfortunately there are a few European fan groups that are racist and love to make themselves heard. These "Ultras" have stronger support in some clubs (mostly Eastern Europe) but are widely ridiculed. What Boateng does, to me anyway, is say, "Look, you paid to be here but I'm not putting up with this. Joke is on you, as nobody can MAKE me play".

[Myt1]

Hmmmmm. I shall have to ponder. Thanks for the posts, guys.

Edited by Myt1, 03 January 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Snakebauer007]

cue Sepp Blatter condeming him for walking off and not letting the officials handle it post match

[soxfan121]

To go a bit further...if a small, loud section of fans in the centerfield bleachers at Fenway were to chant the n-word and throw bananas at Curtis Granderson, it would be a LARGE sports-talk radio issue for months or years.

Yet, the equivalent happens in some European venues on a regular basis. Zomp's point about the integration of American sports is a good one, albeit dated for most of us.

[SoxFanInPdx]

Just wait until the World Cup in Russia in 5 years. The fact they were awarded it still makes me chuckle and not in a good way.

[Myt1]

Zomp,

Is it fair to say that this is a different situation than black athletes facing racism from fans in America because it was so pervasive then? That is, Robinson had to put up with the jeers and black cats simply because the stadium and other team couldn't have kicked everyone in the stands out. And a black player traveling to a racist town had to endure or simply not get the chance to play. But here, we're talking (generally, at least outside of places like Eastern Europe) about a small, vocal minority, and if the organization or facility won't expel those people, then they should be punished with a walk-off and cancellation?

EDIT: Of course, anyone can respond. But Zomp's post is what got me thinking.

Edited by Myt1, 03 January 2013 - 06:32 PM.

[Zomp]

Zomp,

Is it fair to say that this is a different situation than black athletes facing racism from fans in America because it was so pervasive then? That is, Robinson had to put up with the jeers and black cats simply because the stadium and other team couldn't have kicked everyone in the stands out. And a black player traveling to a racist town had to endure or simply not get the chance to play. But here, we're talking (generally, at least outside of places like Eastern Europe) about a small, vocal minority, and if the organization or facility won't expel those people, then they should be punished with a walk-off and cancellation?

EDIT: Of course, anyone can respond. But Zomp's post is what got me thinking.

I think so, yes.

[DrewDawg]

I have only the vaguest understanding of racism in the world of soccer, though.

Take a look at this: http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b01jk4vr

A BBC program called Stadiums of Hate leading up to this past year's Euro tourney in Poland and Ukraine. It's 30 minutes long.

With just days to go before the kick-off of the Euro 2012 championships, Panorama reveals shocking new evidence of racist violence and anti-semitism at the heart of Polish and Ukrainian football and asks whether tournament organiser UEFA should have chosen both nations to host the prestigious event.

Reporter Chris Rogers witnesses a group of Asian fans being attacked on the terraces of a Ukrainian premier league match and hears anti-Semitic chanting at games in Poland. And with exclusive access to a far right group in Ukraine which recruits and trains football hooligans to attack foreigners, Panorama asks: how safe will travelling football teams and their supporters be at this summer's European festival of football?

[Billy R Ford]

The lower division side's name, Pro Patria, translates as "For the Fatherland" in Latin. Nationalist and racist beliefs often go hand in hand- Show Racism the Red Card was begun as a response to the success of the British National Party in British elections. While I'm sure the ultras chanting at this match are a tiny minority of the club's fanbase, IMO the acceptance of a name like Pro Patria is a subtle, tacit acceptance of nationalist ideas, and the club opens itself up to some criticism for that (in the same sense that the acceptance of Chief Wahoo is an acceptance of stereotypes of Native Americans).

One problem in combating racism "in football" is just that idea- that this is a problem in football and not in society. Things like fines and hypothetical point deductions, while positive steps, won't do much about racism. Thus, racism in football will just take different forms from chanting at matches.

Real social change in regards to racism happens through education. What this means is sending soccer players out into the world and teaching people, especially children, about the need for racist beliefs to end. Stuff like this:



Is simple, but still more effective than wearing a T-shirt during warm-ups (which is what that silly controversy over the players in England not wearing Kick it Out shirts was about).

The catch is, that was a Nike commercial- FIFA, UEFA, the FA probably won't be so aggressive in their efforts. Why should they be? Their job is to run a soccer league, not affect "real social change".

This is why actions like Kevin Prince Boateng's are so positive- if the leagues and associations are unwilling to be aggressive in their efforts to eradicate racism, it is great to see players doing so. In a roundabout way, Boateng's actions are "educational" in the sense they showed every kid in that park that such chants are not acceptable in civil society. I really do hope that such actions continue to occur.

[teddykgb]

Zomp,

Is it fair to say that this is a different situation than black athletes facing racism from fans in America because it was so pervasive then? That is, Robinson had to put up with the jeers and black cats simply because the stadium and other team couldn't have kicked everyone in the stands out. And a black player traveling to a racist town had to endure or simply not get the chance to play. But here, we're talking (generally, at least outside of places like Eastern Europe) about a small, vocal minority, and if the organization or facility won't expel those people, then they should be punished with a walk-off and cancellation?

EDIT: Of course, anyone can respond. But Zomp's post is what got me thinking.

I think it's not just pervasiveness but also the lengthy duration. Whereas nowadays most everyone has moved on from racism (thankfully) these ultras groups and a very small minority continue to show up and cause these problems. At this point, it seems like turning the rest of the fans against them may be the only way to prevent this action moving forward. We don't have much of this continuing today in the USA. In a lot of ways, the war has been "won" globally (and I cringe to even type that, it obviously hasn't been won) but these pockets are still fighting. The players of the past made their stand by playing through it in the past, but to overcome these last groups of holdouts there's a need for a new and different tactic. These guys weren't convinced by the previous one. Because this persists, things have to become more drastic and it's applauded, I think, because this is a great way to incentivize the clubs and the fans to simply not tolerate this in any form. If these people become unwelcomed, at the very least they might stop embarassing themselves and everyone else by being so outward in their racism.

[CodPiece XL]

I have mixed feelings on this one. The racism is obviously reprehensible and it is stupid that it happens in this day and age. Whilst it’s nice to applaud KPB taking a stance , where do you draw the line?

Buying a ticket to a football game does not give a license to do things that are illegal out with the stadium. My confusion is over who enforces it? Why deduct a team points, fines or play games behind closed doors etc when it is quite clearly a minority. Why punish the majority of good fans. I know in Britain there is a heavy police presence at football games, should it not be up to them to remove these racist shits, charge them and then ID them to the club in question to ban them for life?

Ok…the argument is that if these people are supporters of a team, theoretically, they won’t jeopardize behaving in such a manner if it affects the standing of a team. Legally, if I was a team owner, and I was docked points, fined etc, I would challenge it. If these thugs are breaking the law and I am paying a substantial amount for policing why are the police not taking action? Granted, I am not sure where stewarding/ policing differ and if anyone can chime in please do.

If we take this example, yes, it does underline ( yet again) the issue with racism. However, it’s the authorities ( UEFA, FIFA with policing) not the players, who should determine how to treat racists. It becomes an untenable situation very quickly: ” my team is losing, I hear racist comments and pick up the ball and leave, my team mates follow” , this may appear a cynical point of view, however this “stand “ opens up a can of worms.

I wish I had an answer but in Europe you are dealing with a varying degree of racial intolerances due to a multitude of cultures. We can all argue that fans from all clubs should be intolerant of the poisonous minority and they will never be welcome in a football stadium but who enforces it and why punish innocent fans for the deeds of a minority?

If nothing else, his actions have highlighted an ongoing issue within football. Bravo...but where do you draw the line.

[DrewDawg]

"Innocent" fans get punished due to the behavior or other fans, of players, of owners in every sport on every level. And frankly, it's not just in sports.

UEFA and FIFA are saying we don't want this behavior in our stadiums and if there is we will punish the teams. It's now incumbent on the teams to avoid this and put steps in place to stop it.

[CodPiece XL]

"Innocent" fans get punished due to the behavior or other fans, of players, of owners in every sport on every level. And frankly, it's not just in sports.

UEFA and FIFA are saying we don't want this behavior in our stadiums and if there is we will punish the teams. It's now incumbent on the teams to avoid this and put steps in place to stop it.

I guess where I am confused is the mechanism of how to stop it. Who does what. I’m not too familiar with the laws of European countries but if it is against the law to racially abuse someone out with the confines of a soccer stadium then surely the police within the stadium are the ones to stop it. Forcefully arrest them and ban them for life. Name them and shame them. I believe that is the case in the UK...perhaps not in other countries.

[Billy R Ford]

cue Sepp Blatter condeming him for walking off and not letting the officials handle it post match

And sure enough...

Sepp Blatter: Stand tall vs. racist chants


LONDON -- FIFA president Sepp Blatter says players facing racial abuse during games shouldn't walk off the field as AC Milan did last week.
...
Blatter was quoted in Abu Dhabi's The National newspaper Sunday as saying: "Walk off? No. I don't think that is the solution. ... I don't think you can run away, because eventually you can run away if you lose a match."
Emphasizing that there should be "zero tolerance of racism in the stadium," Blatter urged local soccer authorities to impose "harsh" sanctions, such as point deductions.

[Infield Infidel]

When Silvio Berlusconi takes the moral high-ground over Sepp you know the FIFA president is beyond the pale

However, in an interview with radio station RTL, Berlusconi has rejected Blatter's sentiment and congratulated his players on their stance.
"I am of the opposite view," he said. "In fact, I thanked and congratulated my players for their decision to leave the field during the friendly in Busto Arsizio.
"This is an uncivilised problem that needs to be stopped, people should not allow these things to happen. Teams out on the pitch should set an example of civility and the educational role of football should not be underestimated.

[Vinho Tinto]

When Silvio Berlusconi takes a similar stance regarding a player who doesn't play for his club, or against his own Ultras if they step out of line, I'll give him credit.

[Tony the Pony]

Exactly right, my favourite fuckin corkturk!

Blatter is a twat waffle, but Berlusconi is just feeding the media.

[PBDWake]

Welp, this has to be embarassing.

 

http://soccernet.esp...lotelli?cc=5901

AC Milan vice president Paolo Berlusconi used a racist slur to describe newly acquired forward Mario Balotelli during public remarks at a political forum in Italy.

Berlusconi,
younger brother of the club president Silvio, described Balotelli, who
is black, as "n------- di famiglia," an Italian slur meaning "the
family's little n-----."

Edited by PBDWake, 05 February 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[Turrable]

I don't follow international news as much as I should but how is Berlusconi not in prison right now?

[URI]

Because...Italy.

[Zomp]

Because...Italy.

 

Hey!

[Jordu]

Because...Italy.

Hey!

Well, he's right. The Italian journalist Beppe Severgnini has an astute and wonderful book called "Mamma Mia! Berlusconi's Italy Explained for Posterity and Friends Abroad." Or you could read the equally excellent magazine piece he wrote for Slate that sums up the book: http://www.slate.com...up_with_hi.html

As long as I'm yakking about Severgnini, he wrote a really funny book about living in the United States for a year called "Ciao, America! An Italian Discovers the U.S."

http://www.amazon.co...S/dp/0767912365

Edited by Jordu, 09 February 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[DLew On Roids]

There's a highly entertaining (if a little heavy-handed) documentary about Italy's Berlusconi era called Videocracy. It's streaming on Netflix.