127 replies to this topic

[rglenmt]

Enough is enough.  I have recall, at least, about a team followed my short life, meaning only a 5'10" catcher.  Don't have to go too far back to remember all the hype Theo created about Salty being the answer to waiting too near to Tek's lasts (felt like the recent edge of the cliff on Capitol Hill), only to find out Salty is still not a very good defensive catcher with some power and many more K.s, then there was Adrian Gonzalez, Theo made us long for him like the 2nd Coming, and while we all were in awe with his sweet swing, the HR power he displayed in his first All Star Game wearing a Red Sox hat, even with his still rehabbing shoulder, after he complained about the burden of playing Sunday night ESPN TV games in 2011 when the RED SOX, according to SI, was still the best ML team, we were all relieved when Adrian Gonzalez's Contract was traded to a team one of whose owners was a GREAT College and NBA GUARD, and now for more than a month, I think maybe a lawyer has convinced Ben that Mike Napoli with or without a Mike Lowell-like hip can be the 1B, first there is a compelling reason why Mike Scioscia did not like having Mr. Napoli catch, why he is an inexperienced 1B, and even the younger Mauro Gomez is at least an average ML 1B, with, I venture, at least as much HR power as Mr. Napoli, the bottom line is trust our Doctors since Beantown does have some of the best, sign a very good 1B like Casey Kotchman, whom at least Mssrs. Middlebrooks, Drew, and Pedroia will again love, and groom 1 of Middlebrooks, Bogaerts, Brentz, Lavarnway or Shaw to be the longterm 1B.

respectfully submitted,

rglenmt f/k/a pudgefick

Edited by rglenmt, 02 January 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[repole]

Would have chalked this up to new years, but you're a day late.

For anyone interested, there are three sentences here. The last one sort of goes on for a while.

[Outsider]

Wait... did he really say we should sign Casey Kotchman and groom Xander Bogaerts to be our next 1B?

There... there are no words...

EDIT: Alright, being my contrarian self I have to admit there's at least some merit to this. If Xander can't hack it as the SS, stashing him at 1B, with the kind of power bat he's reputed to have, actually makes some sense. There'd be no doubt he could handle the position better than well defensively even if his body filled out quite a bit, so if his bat's up to it it's not a completely clueless move. Hate to lose the upside of having a bat like that in a higher leverage position but Ernie Banks did it, so what do I know?

And in the meantime, going cheap with Kotchman? Favoring defense over offense in a year where really decent 1B offense isn't all that available anyway? I can sort of see why he's going in that direction. If we were doing that though, we should have signed Youkilis. Kotchman's bat is beyond bad.

Edited by Outsider, 02 January 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[alwyn96]

rglenmt, consider editing your posts a bit before submitting. Your writing style is pretty difficult to read.

That said, Mauro Gomez isn't really league average, nor does it really matter, since the Red Sox aren't going to make him their starting 1B unless there's another injury meltdown the way there was last year. Unless Napoli's hip has turned to dust, there's no way Gomez compares.

"Grooming" prospects for 1B who have defensive value at more difficult positions seems like a bad idea to me. Moving Bogaerts over to 1B turns him from a top-15 prospect into a top-75 one. Brentz doesn't have a huge amount of defensive value, but while he projects as maybe an average RF, he'd probably be a below average 1B. At least Shaw is an actual 1B. I think he basically projects to be Mauro Gomez, but maybe he can discover another gear. Since you really only want to play one guy per team at 1B on a minor league team, I'd say keep players at their most valuable positions as long as possible. It's far easier to find an acceptable 1B than SS, and you preserve the value of your prospects for trade.

Edited by alwyn96, 02 January 2013 - 08:55 PM.

[rglenmt]

alwyn96 Did not get to see Xander Bogaerts this past season, if he is still with Sea Dogs early, I'll try to get to Hadlock, principally to compare him with Jose Iglesias, although I have read scouting reports which say Iglesias, Marerro, and a few others within organization are all superior defensively to Bogaerts. Also, if he continues to fill out and show the power he'll likely be suited more for 3B or 1B, that being the reason I suggested Will Middlebrooks be looked at some at 1B, along with the others. Have little doubt a number of the players I suggested be looked at 1B are likely better defensively than Mike Napoli. Of course, that is what my post is, in part about, why the fixation on Mike Napoli, seems like team did not learn much from experiences with Salty and Adrian Gonzalez before their acquisition. Would like to talk to you about this kind of stuff, maybe at the Bash?

[Tyrone Biggums]

alwyn96 Did not get to see Xander Bogaerts this past season, if he is still with Sea Dogs early, I'll try to get to Hadlock, principally to compare him with Jose Iglesias, although I have read scouting reports which say Iglesias, Marerro, and a few others within organization are all superior defensively to Bogaerts. Also, if he continues to fill out and show the power he'll likely be suited more for 3B or 1B, that being the reason I suggested Will Middlebrooks be looked at some at 1B, along with the others. Have little doubt a number of the players I suggested be looked at 1B are likely better defensively than Mike Napoli. Of course, that is what my post is, in part about, why the fixation on Mike Napoli, seems like team did not learn much from experiences with Salty and Adrian Gonzalez before their acquisition. Would like to talk to you about this kind of stuff, maybe at the Bash?

I forgot how terrible A-Gon and Salty were with Boston...if you would take Mauro Gomez over Napoli then I don't think there is anything left to say.

[LostinNJ]

If he doesn't stick at short, Bogaerts' next position would likely be third base, and since that is more than competently filled for the next few years (let's assume), his next stop is a corner outfield spot. He has a good arm, which would be wasted at first.

[Sampo Gida]

I like the Casey kotchman idea. Another option would be Carlos Pena, who is decent defensively and hoping for his power to rebound.

If it does not work out the team can make a move at the trading deadline to upgrade with some payroll flexibility and using some of the surplus bullpen arms we think we will have.

Another idea is trading for V-Mart and freeing the Tigers to go after Napoli. Both have injury concerns but V-Mart only has 2 years left on his deal and Napoli wants 3 years, and the Tigers may eat some salary for the right player. As primarily a DH the hip concerns for Napoli may be less for the Tigers.

[alwyn96]

alwyn96 Did not get to see Xander Bogaerts this past season, if he is still with Sea Dogs early, I'll try to get to Hadlock, principally to compare him with Jose Iglesias, although I have read scouting reports which say Iglesias, Marerro, and a few others within organization are all superior defensively to Bogaerts. Also, if he continues to fill out and show the power he'll likely be suited more for 3B or 1B, that being the reason I suggested Will Middlebrooks be looked at some at 1B, along with the others. Have little doubt a number of the players I suggested be looked at 1B are likely better defensively than Mike Napoli. Of course, that is what my post is, in part about, why the fixation on Mike Napoli, seems like team did not learn much from experiences with Salty and Adrian Gonzalez before their acquisition. Would like to talk to you about this kind of stuff, maybe at the Bash?

Sadly, since I'm far away in exile from New England, I doubt I'll be attending a SoSH bash.

I'm just not quite sure what you're getting at here. There are probably countless players who might be better 1B defenders than Napoli, but few who project to hit as well. Hitting tends to weigh a little more in most people's evaluations of players than fielding. I don't quite understand what you think the team should have learned about Salty and Gonzalez. Gonzalez was a Gold Glove fielder, and widely considered one of the better 1B in baseball.

[alwyn96]

I like the Casey kotchman idea. Another option would be Carlos Pena, who is decent defensively and hoping for his power to rebound.

If it does not work out the team can make a move at the trading deadline to upgrade with some payroll flexibility and using some of the surplus bullpen arms we think we will have.

Another idea is trading for V-Mart and freeing the Tigers to go after Napoli. Both have injury concerns but V-Mart only has 2 years left on his deal and Napoli wants 3 years, and the Tigers may eat some salary for the right player. As primarily a DH the hip concerns for Napoli may be less for the Tigers.

Carlos Pena is the new Astros DH.

Of current 1B FA, here are the unsigned ones:

Lance Berkman
Casey Kotchman
Jason Giambi
Lyle Overbay
Carlos Lee
Aubrey Huff
Adam LaRoche

Edited by alwyn96, 02 January 2013 - 09:13 PM.

[Outsider]

Of that list, I'd look at Berkman.

[alwyn96]

Of that list, I'd look at Berkman.

Yeah, he'd be my pick too, although the Red Sox seem to not be considering him for some reason. The rest of that list, with the exception of a probably too expensive LaRoche, looks pretty toasty.

[rglenmt]

alwyn96,

Been a SOSH member since 03, although when I started posting again had to change my SOSH name, so much respect for a guy who tried out for the Hearst All Stars with Tony C. LOL Sorry you are too far away to likely come back for the Bash, although when I was an AF JAG in Wichita, Ks and Washington, DC, I think it heightened my enthusiasm for our Olde Towne Team. Anyway, the primary reason I suggested Casey Kotchman is he comes from a baseball heritage, his father is a respected scout, he played for the Bosox for a short time, he is likely the best defensive 1B since Doug Mienkewicz and I thought he might make the infield, although certainly talented and somewhat veteran except for Will Middlebrooks, very comfortable. My buddy Kevin Youkilis, who some have heard me say worked his butt off to become an OK 3B (the Yankees will find out) and a GG 1B, I sort of think Youk and Pesky Pedro pushed each other in a very positive hustling way. 2013 is certainly a transition season, players like Gomes, Victorino and Drew reflect that, but I thought defensively and price wise, Casey Kotchman is a good fit, I believe Mike Scioscia, Bobby Cox, Tito Francona, John Maddon and Manny Acta, all believe that. I saw someone in this thread, suggest Carlos Pena who played at Northeastern, a local favorite and certainly a better than average fielder with much more power, unfortunately also with a lower BA and more Ks, already signed with the Astros. Guess, us fans, having the opportunity to opine as if GMs, is what SOSH is built on, so as long as all of us can agree to disagree as we also do in Chat, it is a Good Thing. Only wish Congress and the U.S. Senate got along as well as we Red Sox fans do!

respectfully submitted,

rglenmt f/k/a pudgefick

[Outsider]

Since I think I saw something about Kotchman somewhere in there:

Casey Kotchman has a career line worse than Kevin Youkilis' worst ever season. Kotchman for his career is .262/.328/.388. That wouldn't be acceptable for a shortstop. He's not even viable as a backup 1B much less a starter.

Edited by Outsider, 03 January 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[Hugh G Rection]

And people wonder why the Sandbox doesn't have much of a reputation...............

[rglenmt]

OUTSIDER, Youk is the MFY's 3B, so he is not available. For a number of seasons he was quite useful to the 2 Red Sox managers he played for, 1 who knew how to use Youk, 1 who did not know how to use many his players. HUGH G RECTION, Having read an awful lot of writing, sports and otherwise, not sure the contributors to the SANDBOX don't write just as well and have as many interesting ideas as other SOSHERs, I for one have always held baseball stat people in some awe, on the other hand reading only stats can put most people to sleep as fast as reading the opinions of others. respectfully submitted, rglenmt f/k/a pudgefick

Edited by rglenmt, 03 January 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Outsider]

I know that, but there was a period of some months that Youk was available, and I was calling for him to be signed for the same reasons you still want Kotchman. Quite frankly, there is no 1B left who was a better bet to be a great 1B than Kevin Youkilis was. Adam LaRoche probably comes closest.

[Sampo Gida]

I know that, but there was a period of some months that Youk was available, and I was calling for him to be signed for the same reasons you still want Kotchman. Quite frankly, there is no 1B left who was a better bet to be a great 1B than Kevin Youkilis was. Adam LaRoche probably comes closest.

We did not know about Napolis hip. I would say offensively Napoli would be a better fit than Youk, and his ability to back up at catcher is a plus. Defensively, Youk is better but has been beset by injuries the past couple of years.


Kotchman is really only being discussed as an option if Napoli is out (or a backup 1Bman if he is not) and the Red Sox refuse to give up a draft pick for Laroche. He had a pretty good year for the Rays in 2011 and was awful with the Indians last year. Thus, what you get offensively is uncertain, but he has a good glove and if you have a decent platoon partner, perhaps Gomez, you could probably make it to the trading deadline without too much damage, then you can upgrade then if needed.

[Outsider]

Offensively, if both are healthy, it's a tradeoff. Napoli hits more bombs. Youkilis is better at making solid contact, driving the ball, and being a consistent offensive threat.Let's not forget that a healthy Youkilis was one of the best offensive performers in MLB just 2 years ago and combined that with being a GG 1B.

We should have tried the Gonzo thing, that was worth attempting because of the upside, but it screwed us over in multiple ways. Exposing Youkilis to injury is one of the ways. That said, youks has had exactly one year where he was not a dynamic, multifaceted offensive threat. I do not like the fact that the Yankees have a guy like that. Practically screams "blows up in our face in three... two..."

[Sampo Gida]

Offensively, if both are healthy, it's a tradeoff. Napoli hits more bombs. Youkilis is better at making solid contact, driving the ball, and being a consistent offensive threat.Let's not forget that a healthy Youkilis was one of the best offensive performers in MLB just 2 years ago and combined that with being a GG 1B.

We should have tried the Gonzo thing, that was worth attempting because of the upside, but it screwed us over in multiple ways. Exposing Youkilis to injury is one of the ways. That said, youks has had exactly one year where he was not a dynamic, multifaceted offensive threat. I do not like the fact that the Yankees have a guy like that. Practically screams "blows up in our face in three... two..."

Not sure where Youk is right now. His numbers the past 2 seasons scream decline, but if he rebounds he should be a good pickup for the Yankees. Youk has not been healthy enough to have a 500 AB season since 2008. Of course, Napoli never has had 500 AB (albeit at a more demanding position where he was platooned ) .


Knowing what we know now about Napolis hip, perhaps Youk was a better option. That boat has sailed though.


The Gonzo thing actually worked. It was the non-performing contracts of Lackey and Crawford, and Beckett that made his contract an issue. Don't forget the prospects we got for him one of which got us Hanrahan, and Rubby and Webster may be in the rotation before too long. He also allowed us to dump Crawford and Becketts contract, and gave us almost 2 years of decent production. Of course, Rizzo looks like he could have stepped into 1B as early as last year, so.....

Edited by Sampo Gida, 04 January 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[RochesterSamHorn]

As I have mentioned in another thread, I get the Red Sox m.o. - watchful eye on the payroll, do not trade prospects or forfeit draft picks, field a competitive team. Great; wake me up in two years when this group is gone and we can hopefully build a team with real building blocks of players with futures. I have no ambition to make a trip to Fenway to see this team play. How many jerseys do you think they'll sell with a team loaded with 2 yr. 'patchwork' contracts? Bobby Abreu for 1B? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Houston wouldn't dig so low. At least make a small trade for Justin Smoak. He's young, actually plays 1B, bats L/R, is coming off an impressive Aug./Sept., and could be a steal. Or they could really blow things up and trade for a (like the thread says) real 1B. Lots of teams looking for good young pitching...Bucholz (+) for Chase Headley, or Tyler Colvin, or Mike Olt, or Mark Trumbo, or... someone I can root for, for more than 2 years!

[Sampo Gida]

As I have mentioned in another thread, I get the Red Sox m.o. - watchful eye on the payroll, do not trade prospects or forfeit draft picks, field a competitive team. Great; wake me up in two years when this group is gone and we can hopefully build a team with real building blocks of players with futures. I have no ambition to make a trip to Fenway to see this team play. How many jerseys do you think they'll sell with a team loaded with 2 yr. 'patchwork' contracts? Bobby Abreu for 1B? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Houston wouldn't dig so low. At least make a small trade for Justin Smoak. He's young, actually plays 1B, bats L/R, is coming off an impressive Aug./Sept., and could be a steal. Or they could really blow things up and trade for a (like the thread says) real 1B. Lots of teams looking for good young pitching...Bucholz (+) for Chase Headley, or Tyler Colvin, or Mike Olt, or Mark Trumbo, or... someone I can root for, for more than 2 years!

What are you talking about, you have WMB, Pedroia, Papi, Jacoby, Lester, Buchholz who have been here for years or will be here for years to come. Obviously, the filler will be here for shorter periods. In a couple of years, the next wave of prospects make it under team control for 6 years.

The Rangers just signed Berkman for 1 yr with an option, the Yankees signed Youk for 1 yr, so its not just the Red Sox who sign aging players to fill holes for short periods..


Obviously, its not like 67 anymore where you filled a team with mostly 22-25 yo kids who had no option for free agency 6 years hence. But that's the nature of the game today, most players are transients.

[lxt]

Have we all run out of things to say?

Napoli is still in the air ... they should try and bring this to closer soon as options are running out ... give him 2 yrs at $10million guaranteed money with incentives for another $4.5million - if he plays well and plays often he will be well compensated but if he goes the way of Lowell the Sox will only spend $10million a year. LaRoche is not my choice but better than what is left out there - will he take two years and more money?

Vazquez would be interesting in long relief, put Morales at Middle Relief ... solid pen, solid backups for some potentially shakey starters.

Trade for J. Upton or Stanton still await the Sox pulling the trigger, yes prospects but the return is more than justified.

[Outsider]

Why not sign Casey Kotchman, he can field at least.

Maybe we can trade for V-Mart, then the Tigers can use the money to sign Napoli at DH and we have a well rested 1B/C coming off knee surgery.

I can sum up a better solution in 2 words.

Billy. Butler.

I've wanted Butler for years. Born Fenway hitter. He's getting on the expensive side for KC. We have pieces we can trade in return that KC has to be interested in. Please get it done Cherington.

I'm a confirmed Felix Doubront fanboy, but I would package Doubs with Brentz and Salty for Butler and lose no sleep over it. The Royals would have to at least think about that kind of offer.

Edited by Outsider, 06 January 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[RochesterSamHorn]

I get the OF signings, because we have prospects in the system, but as far as 1B, the cupboard is bare. At some point, whether Napoli happens or not, we need to address this position for the future and stability. With so many good, young available options, why not make ONE trade this year to balance out this makeover to inject some excitement? I'm thinking the Sox are stashing all their prospects and draft picks for one big trade (Giancarlo Stanton) when the Marlins decide to pull the trigger, but that's another topic.

[Joe Tall]

I can sum up a better solution in 2 words.

Billy. Butler.

I've wanted Butler for years. Born Fenway hitter. He's getting on the expensive side for KC. We have pieces we can trade in return that KC has to be interested in. Please get it done Cherington.

I'm a confirmed Felix Doubront fanboy, but I would package Doubs with Brentz and Salty for Butler and lose no sleep over it. The Royals would have to at least think about that kind of offer.

+1 for Billy Butler for sure, that guy can grind.

He's a good version of Youk that stays healthy, imo.

[Tyrone Biggums]

I can sum up a better solution in 2 words.

Billy. Butler.

I've wanted Butler for years. Born Fenway hitter. He's getting on the expensive side for KC. We have pieces we can trade in return that KC has to be interested in. Please get it done Cherington.

I'm a confirmed Felix Doubront fanboy, but I would package Doubs with Brentz and Salty for Butler and lose no sleep over it. The Royals would have to at least think about that kind of offer.

Royals would hang up the phone and put a restraining order against the Red Sox if they offered that. Why would the Royals want Salty? They have Sal Perez, Doubronts value isn't nearly that high, neither is Brentz

[Sampo Gida]

I can sum up a better solution in 2 words.

Billy. Butler.

I've wanted Butler for years. Born Fenway hitter. He's getting on the expensive side for KC. We have pieces we can trade in return that KC has to be interested in. Please get it done Cherington.

I'm a confirmed Felix Doubront fanboy, but I would package Doubs with Brentz and Salty for Butler and lose no sleep over it. The Royals would have to at least think about that kind of offer.

The Royals have him locked up for the next 3 years in his peak years at easy money *28 million over 3 years). Salty is a FA after this year. Brentz is a prospect which they have up the yahoo, and Doubront is attractive no doubt, but at this point only a #4 starter.


So I know the Royals would not be interested. I doubt the Red Sox want to give up Doubront given starting pitching is somewhat suspect. Rather give up a #2 draft pick for Laroche or sign Napoli for nothing but money than lose someone from the rotation.

[alwyn96]

I get the OF signings, because we have prospects in the system, but as far as 1B, the cupboard is bare. At some point, whether Napoli happens or not, we need to address this position for the future and stability. With so many good, young available options, why not make ONE trade this year to balance out this makeover to inject some excitement? I'm thinking the Sox are stashing all their prospects and draft picks for one big trade (Giancarlo Stanton) when the Marlins decide to pull the trigger, but that's another topic.

Who are all these good, young available options you speak of?

I actually think 1B is probably the position you least need to have a long term plan for. It's where you can stash guys who can hit but aren't great in the field. Guys end up at 1B usually because they aren't good enough with the glove to play a more valuable position. Most major league hitters can play a little 1B - I tend to think of nearly all position players as potential 1B. If your argument is that the Red Sox need to develop excellent young hitters, then I certainly agree, but I'm not sure they should specifically groom a 1B. They've done pretty well with short-term guys for years.

Edited by alwyn96, 07 January 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[alwyn96]

Yeah, I love me some Billy Butler, but I can't imagine the Royals trading him. They just traded a #1ish prospect for a top starter. They're going for it. Or trying, anyway.

Edited by alwyn96, 08 January 2013 - 04:02 AM.

[BeantownIdaho]

The Royals are trying to win at this point so trading Butler is not in the plan. Maybe at the trade deadline if they are out of it, but they have made moves that show they want to win now. There is absolutely no way that Vasquez comes out of retirement to be the long man out of the bullpen. He is coming back on a major league contract with decent money. The best thing the Sox can do now is work out the Napoli deal and make sure it includes protective language for the hip. Once the Napoli deal is made I can see maybe a deal involving Salty but outside of that the roster is pretty much set.

[Outsider]

I disagree with this philosophy. First base isn't a position that requires a lot of running speed or lateral quickness, but that doesn't mean that every gloveless wonder can survive there. There's a difference between a low-athleticism position and a low-skill position, of which none exists in MLB.

We're talking about the position that touches the ball more than any other player other than the pitcher and catcher. You need good hands at first base.

Edited by Outsider, 08 January 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[rglenmt]

This effort to contract with Mike Napoli has taken on a life of its own, perhaps longer than Mike, if signed, will play 1B before he is either replaced or has to be placed on the DL. I remember George Scott, Wes Parker, Keith Hernandez, Doug MinKiewicz, Kevin Youkilis, or Casey Kotchman, but of course also more than a few 1Bs named "stonefingers". Not an easy position and we can count the number of ML infielders who thank their lucky stars every night if they have a good or better 1B. There is a good reason a very good defensive catcher Mike Scioscia, his Manager, used Mike Napoli so little behind the plate, only really played Mr. Napoli at 1B after Kendry Morales broke his leg jumping on home plate celebrating his grand slam with his Angel teammates and why Ranger manager Washington played SS/3B Michael Young at 1B last season and Moreland otherwise. Just some thoughts! Here's hoping Mauro Gomez, Mark Hamilton or Travis Shaw have such a compelling ST one becomes the regular 1B.

respectfully submitted,

rglenmt f/k/a pudgefick

Edited by rglenmt, 08 January 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[alwyn96]

I disagree with this philosophy. First base isn't a position that requires a lot of running speed or lateral quickness, but that doesn't mean that every gloveless wonder can survive there. There's a difference between a low-athleticism position and a low-skill position, of which none exists in MLB.

We're talking about the position that touches the ball more than any other player other than the pitcher and catcher. You need good hands at first base.

Sure, I'm not saying you could just throw anyone out there, but I think most players who've made it to MLB at a more difficult fielding position usually have the hands to field 1B. That's not universally true, but I think it's usually weakness with the bat that keeps players off 1B, not a lack of fielding skill.

For what it's worth, Michael Morse is probably now available. He may not be a particularly good fielder, but he started at SS and was only moved when he proved to be terrible at it.

[wine111]

I think I've had enough of the Napoli situation. If his hip is that bad, don't sign him. The Red Sox seem to have a fascination with recently injured players. When they traded for Adrian Gonzalez, they knew he had just had shoulder surgery. Then they signed him to a long term deal. We know the rest of the story. Adrian lost his power. What a surprise! There have been reports indicating that when the Red Sox signed Carl Crawford, they knew he had issues with his left hand and wrist. Didn't work out well. What a shock! Now we want to sign another free agent with a known injury. Stop acquiring injured players and paying them at the peak of their market value please! Isn't this just common sense?

Michael Morse may indeed be a good fit at 1B. A strong right handed hitter, his injury to his right lat muscle last year should not be a chonic condition. The lat muscle should return to normal and is much less troublesome than the injuries that Gonzalez and Crawford had and that Napoli has.

Edited by wine111, 08 January 2013 - 03:54 PM.

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

I think Morse would be a great fallback option if Napoli falls through. Depending on the cost obviously. Would likely produce close to if not the same offensively as Napoli and might be better (slightly) defensively.

[Joe Tall]

The Royals are trying to win at this point so trading Butler is not in the plan. Maybe at the trade deadline if they are out of it, but they have made moves that show they want to win now. There is absolutely no way that Vasquez comes out of retirement to be the long man out of the bullpen. He is coming back on a major league contract with decent money. The best thing the Sox can do now is work out the Napoli deal and make sure it includes protective language for the hip. Once the Napoli deal is made I can see maybe a deal involving Salty but outside of that the roster is pretty much set.

I have to agree, nice assessment. Are you really happy with the Napoli deal though? And, what if it doesnt happen, there will be room, will it be used and how?

[lxt]

I'm pretty sure the Napoli deal will get done. Although, the Sox act like Gomez can play 1B, I think they'd be against it. The only way Napoli is not coming to the Sox is if they can pull off a quick trade to get one of the players (Like Wash - Morse) that other teams consider extras.

Edited by lxt, 08 January 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[BeantownIdaho]

I am not a huge fan of the Napoli deal, especially now with the hip issue coming to light (which may be the reason for declining numbers). However, I think he could be the best bet at this point. I have to think that somewhere in a banquet room at Denny's, Cherrington and the powers that be are trying to figure out how to get Morse with some of their excess bullpen arms and some propects. 1 year @ 7mil with Morse seems to be more appealing than the Napoli deal IMO - he can hit, play first and play the outfield. He is only signed at one year as well so we would be in the same boat next year trying to find a short contract for a 1st baseman. I guess it's an issue of pick your poison.

[Sampo Gida]

I am not a huge fan of the Napoli deal, especially now with the hip issue coming to light (which may be the reason for declining numbers). However, I think he could be the best bet at this point. I have to think that somewhere in a banquet room at Denny's, Cherrington and the powers that be are trying to figure out how to get Morse with some of their excess bullpen arms and some propects. 1 year @ 7mil with Morse seems to be more appealing than the Napoli deal IMO - he can hit, play first and play the outfield. He is only signed at one year as well so we would be in the same boat next year trying to find a short contract for a 1st baseman. I guess it's an issue of pick your poison.

The Red Sox can easily afford Napoli without going over the tax threshold, so why would they consider to give up bullpen arms and prospects to save money (6 million) for 1 year. The bullpen arms, if we accept your premise that there is a surplus, can be turned around to fill holes that develop during the season, and the prospects given up may end up in the MLB with surplus value for up to 6 cost controlled years. While Morse can play the OF, he would be the teams primary 1Bman with no backup other than the RHH Gomez at this point, so his ability to play OF does not seem important in this role.

Edited by Sampo Gida, 09 January 2013 - 12:12 AM.

[alwyn96]

It's interesting to me that the Napoli's hip isn't so bad that the Red Sox have lost interest, but only seem to want to shave a year off the deal. I'm not quite sure what test you'd be running on a hip to tell whether it's ok or not, (an MRI, I guess? An x-ray? I honestly have no idea. The hip is a pretty large and complicated area) but I imagine there's a fair amount of room for interpretation of whatever they're looking at. That the Red Sox think it's good enough for at two years rather than no years makes me think this will probably get done.

[pdub]

I'd go for Morse. Reports are that WSH wants a left-handed reliever or some prospects. What could we give? Heck, we could trade for Morse and then flip Salty after we've signed Napoli. Could replenish some of what we give up for Morse.

[rglenmt]

Looked up stats on Mike Morse, looks like he might be much better, particularly cause he also can play a corner outfield position is only 30 and by comparison is a better fielder as a 1B and OF than Mike Napoli is as a catcher or a 1B. Whatever the Sox do, hope don't put the team in position of having to play Mike Napoli behind the plate, other than on an emergency basis. I think trading Salty is a good idea, while his HR total may make him the most valuable he'll ever be, but I think Salty is not much better catcher than Mr. Napoli, and I suggest if Salty goes to another team, that team will try to coach Salty into becoming a 1B or DH. respectfully submitted, rglenmt f/k/a pudgefick

[pdub]

It would also open the door to getting Lavarnway more time and at-bats. Morse could play LF and Napoli could rotate between C and 1B for Lavarnway. This would also allow Ortiz to get more days off and protect his knees, something we should consider given his age. I guess it really all depends on what they plan do with Gomes, since he could provide most of what I've said. But still, I'd go for Morse.

[alwyn96]

Looked up stats on Mike Morse, looks like he might be much better, particularly cause he also can play a corner outfield position is only 30 and by comparison is a better fielder as a 1B and OF than Mike Napoli is as a catcher or a 1B. Whatever the Sox do, hope don't put the team in position of having to play Mike Napoli behind the plate, other than on an emergency basis. I think trading Salty is a good idea, while his HR total may make him the most valuable he'll ever be, but I think Salty is not much better catcher than Mr. Napoli, and I suggest if Salty goes to another team, that team will try to coach Salty into becoming a 1B or DH. respectfully submitted, rglenmt f/k/a pudgefick

How old do you think Mike Napoli is?

I'm not sure Morse would really be much better defensively than Napoli. What gives you that impression? According to the fielding stats (if you choose to believe them) Morse is basically a Manny Ramirez-level defender in the OF. He played all of 5 innings at 1B last year, and in 2011, the lone full, healthy-ish season in his career, he was pretty lousy there. He was also a godawful baserunner. And has tested positive for steroids twice (for what it's worth). Assuming equal health between them, I'd say Morse might be a slightly better defender, but it's very close. It's hard to judge Napoli's stats at 1B because he was usually playing there when he was banged up from catching.

[BoredViewer]

LaRoche would've been a good fit... but he probably wanted to stay with a contender. Great deal for the Nats, though.

[BoredViewer]

It's interesting to me that the Napoli's hip isn't so bad that the Red Sox have lost interest, but only seem to want to shave a year off the deal. I'm not quite sure what test you'd be running on a hip to tell whether it's ok or not, (an MRI, I guess? An x-ray? I honestly have no idea. The hip is a pretty large and complicated area) but I imagine there's a fair amount of room for interpretation of whatever they're looking at. That the Red Sox think it's good enough for at two years rather than no years makes me think this will probably get done.

I agree. The Sox reaction is curious. If the hip is a concern, I really think they should just look elsewhere - Napoli isn't going to bring a title. If the hip really isn't much of a concern... sign the deal they agreed to and let's move on.

I find it to be a very bizarre evaluation that it seems OK for 2 years of health, but not 3.

[BeantownIdaho]

The Red Sox can easily afford Napoli without going over the tax threshold, so why would they consider to give up bullpen arms and prospects to save money (6 million) for 1 year. The bullpen arms, if we accept your premise that there is a surplus, can be turned around to fill holes that develop during the season, and the prospects given up may end up in the MLB with surplus value for up to 6 cost controlled years. While Morse can play the OF, he would be the teams primary 1Bman with no backup other than the RHH Gomez at this point, so his ability to play OF does not seem important in this role.

Some of the surplus of pitching we have in bullpen are out of options which means we put them on waivers and they get claimed OR we trade them. The Nationals just happen to be looking for bullpen help. Just because the Sox can affor it doesn't mean they should do it. IF getting the same production from MOrse that we would get from Napoli frees up money that could be used at the deadline then I am all for it. I will concede that Morse is not the greatest defensive 1b, but is Napoli? Playing outfield does not seem important in this role? Did you just become a sox fan and miss the 2012 season? They had Adrian Gonzalez playing outfield because of injuries! Versatility is an asset!

[Sampo Gida]

Some of the surplus of pitching we have in bullpen are out of options which means we put them on waivers and they get claimed OR we trade them. The Nationals just happen to be looking for bullpen help. Just because the Sox can affor it doesn't mean they should do it. IF getting the same production from MOrse that we would get from Napoli frees up money that could be used at the deadline then I am all for it. I will concede that Morse is not the greatest defensive 1b, but is Napoli? Playing outfield does not seem important in this role? Did you just become a sox fan and miss the 2012 season? They had Adrian Gonzalez playing outfield because of injuries! Versatility is an asset!

Nats looking for LH reliever and more, and there are multiple teams after Morse which tends to drive up the price. Which LH reliever do you think is surplus AND that the Nats would accept for Morse? The injury plagued Hill, the control challenged Miller, the very versatile Morales who is also SP depth or the very effective Breslow. While I could see trading Miller or Hill, I can not see the Nats accepting only this. I would not trade Breslow or Morales. History tells us that the belief you have a surplus at pitching is usually an illusion that does not survive long after ST starts..


As for OF, unlike last year, we have no surplus of 1Bmen. Last year Adrian Gonzalez was playing OF so Papis and Agons bat would both be in the lineup in interleague play (which wont be the case with either napoli or Morse) and then later primarily to have Youks bat in the lineup as he was on the trading block. Once Youk was traded Adrian Gonzalez no longer played in the OF. So you see, it was not the shortage of OF'ers after all that prompted Bobby V to play A-Gon in the OF..


While versatility is valuable, Napoli is also versatile as he can catch. This allows Farrell to PH for his C late in games we are behind, which is useful when Salty is in one of his funks or if Ross is catching.

Edited by Sampo Gida, 10 January 2013 - 12:22 AM.

[koufax37]

I find it to be a very bizarre evaluation that it seems OK for 2 years of health, but not 3.

Calculated risk equation changing with additional negative risk added. If the deal was the appropriate and fair level without that information, offering the same deal with an added risk factor on the table now would be an overpay.

I don't know if changing dollars, changing years, putting in Lackey language is what makes the deal fair with the added information, but clearly they still like the player and want the player, they just value him slightly less with the new risk factor that wasn't in the equation when the initial terms were agreed to.

I don't really understand or like how long it is taking to adjust, because either the two sides are further apart than we would like (in which case the chances of the deal falling through is high), or they are creating uncertainty and Mauro Gomez playing possibility over a small difference. But I completely understand negotiating a change to terms based on the additional risk factor while still really wanting the player.