141 replies to this topic

[knucklecup]

http://www.cbssports...ld-be-difficult

Thoughts?

[URI]

I'm not comfortable with bigotry hidden behind a Bible.

I am very comfortable with Torii Hunter not being on the baseball team I root for though. This feeling has nothing to do with his feeling on gays, and everything to do with him being a crappy baseball player.

[TheShynessClinic]

Racist AND homophobic. What a guy.

[Foulkey Reese]

I like when players turn my irrational dislike into rational dislike.

Edit: Although I appreciate when people answer hard questions honestly instead of giving phony soundbites,

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 30 December 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[soxfan121]

Hunter (among others) were interviewed for this LA Times piece by Kevin Baxter entitled "In Pro Sports, Gay Athletes Still Feel Unwelcome".

Hunter's comments:

But former Angels outfielder Torii Hunter, among baseball's most thoughtful and intelligent players, isn't kidding when he says an "out" teammate could divide a team.

"For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right," he says. "It will be difficult and uncomfortable."

[knucklecup]

I like when players turn my irrational dislike into rational dislike.

This.

I was catching a lot of flak this offseason for Gomes and Victorino over Hunter with friends. The BABIP argument can only go so far. Thank you for being an unintelligent person, Torii.

[SaveBooFerriss]

Comments like Hunter's aren't going to go away until there are openly gay players in clubhouses. Once that happens, it will be very difficult for players to make such comments when a name and face are actually attached to the person Hunter isn't comfortable with.

[Curll]

[Rasputin]

Torii Hunter can kiss my ass.

[InsideTheParker]

Hunter has been dead to me ever since he said the better team didn't win the 2008 ALDS. (No, I can't find the quote now, but I heard it with my own ears.) Now that may have been another example of his giving an honest answer to a question instead of giving "phony soundbites," but it came across as bad sportsmanship at the time.

[Yaz4Ever]

I find it funny that people who demand so much open-mindedness from others can be so closed-minded to others. He answered the question honestly. I disagree with him as do many others, obviously, but so what? If his opinion differs from yours, he's automatically wrong? Show tolerance if you'd like tolerance. I voted against the Marriage Amendment here in NC, but I still enjoy Chick-fil-A. The owner of that business is entitled to his opinion just as you and I are entitled to ours. Seriously, get over yourselves already.

SaveBooFerriss has it right, imho. When an active player comes "out", it'll make things much easier for others to see where they might be wrong in feeling this way. How would Torii (or any other player's opinion) change if a close friend and teammate came "out"? Would their respect for this player suddenly disappear? I think there's a chance that Torii doesn't personally know any gay people and might not be able to make an informed decision so he defaults to his religious beliefs.

InsideTheParker - I think you're cherry-picking Foulkey's comment to suit your needs. Saying something like that does seem like poor sportsmanship to me as well, but it doesn't discount the fact that he may be answering the question honestly from his point-of-view. I think the Patriots were the better team for both Super Bowl losses to the Giants. Giants fans would disagree. Oh well.

[AMS25]

SaveBooFerriss has it right, imho. When an active player comes "out", it'll make things much easier for others to see where they might be wrong in feeling this way. How would Torii (or any other player's opinion) change if a close friend and teammate came "out"? Would their respect for this player suddenly disappear? I think there's a chance that Torii doesn't personally know any gay people and might not be able to make an informed decision so he defaults to his religious beliefs.

This. That is why coming "out" has been so important for the growing acceptance of the LGBT community. It's hard to pass judgment on a neighbor, co-worker, or, yes, teammate.

[RIrooter09]

I find it funny that people who demand so much open-mindedness from others can be so closed-minded to others. He answered the question honestly. I disagree with him as do many others, obviously, but so what? If his opinion differs from yours, he's automatically wrong? Show tolerance if you'd like tolerance. I voted against the Marriage Amendment here in NC, but I still enjoy Chick-fil-A. The owner of that business is entitled to his opinion just as you and I are entitled to ours. Seriously, get over yourselves already.

SaveBooFerriss has it right, imho. When an active player comes "out", it'll make things much easier for others to see where they might be wrong in feeling this way. How would Torii (or any other player's opinion) change if a close friend and teammate came "out"? Would their respect for this player suddenly disappear? I think there's a chance that Torii doesn't personally know any gay people and might not be able to make an informed decision so he defaults to his religious beliefs.

InsideTheParker - I think you're cherry-picking Foulkey's comment to suit your needs. Saying something like that does seem like poor sportsmanship to me as well, but it doesn't discount the fact that he may be answering the question honestly from his point-of-view. I think the Patriots were the better team for both Super Bowl losses to the Giants. Giants fans would disagree. Oh well.

Just curious, if Justin Verlander were to say he wasn't comfortable with his African American teammates would you have the same reaction?

Edited by RIrooter09, 30 December 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[URI]

If his opinion differs from yours, he's automatically wrong?

Yes, if you feel bigotry is wrong, then what he said is automatically wrong. As far as I can tell, that's the beauty of free speech...someone can say whatever they want and then other people can say they are full of shit.

Show tolerance if you'd like tolerance.

Sorry, but fuck that. What Hunter did was announce he was a bigot. It's not intolerant to call him a bigot for saying that anymore than you can call Arthur Butz an anti-Semite for Holocaust denial or David Duke a racist for being in the KKK.

It's a perversion of the actual idea of tolerance (not the Limbaughian strawman definition of tolerance) to say that people need to accept bigotry because hey, accept everything.

I disagree with him as do many others, obviously, but so what?

This doesn't make a lick of difference to me, but I'm not gay. You can still feel empathy for those who are that might not like hearing that Torii Hunter thinks they are an affront to his belief structure.

[InsideTheParker]

I think we are all practicing tolerance, because no one is saying that anyone should be fired or banned from baseball or put in jail or burned at the stake for their ideas. Hunter is free to express his prejudices and we are free to dislike him for them.

[armyguy25]

I'm actually really surprised. Obviously, we dont ACTUALLY know any of these people, but he seemed like the kind of guy who would be pretty carefree and tolerant.

I love how people pick and choose which bible passages they want to interpret lieterally though. There are so many contradictions in the Bible that you need selective interpretation if you hope to form a unified opinion of it

[ccsubruce]

Another idiot who probably read Leviticus 20:13 after it was incorrectly translated a million times. I'm so tired of Christians practicing hatred in the name of god. It's the main reason I haven't been inside a church in so many years.

[Yaz4Ever]

Just curious, if Justin Verlander were to say he wasn't comfortable with his African American teammates would you have the same reaction?

Would I still be upset that people feel his opinion (misguided or not) was slammed by others who would prefer a PC response of "no, I think it would be swell" and then underhandedly making these teammates uncomfortable or worse? yes. I'd prefer honest answers even if they differ from mine. Doesn't mean Hunter, or Verlander in this case, jerseys would be worn by my kids but I'd at least respect his opinion.

Yes, if you feel bigotry is wrong, then what he said is automatically wrong. As far as I can tell, that's the beauty of free speech...someone can say whatever they want and then other people can say they are full of shit.



Sorry, but fuck that. What Hunter did was announce he was a bigot. It's not intolerant to call him a bigot for saying that anymore than you can call Arthur Butz an anti-Semite for Holocaust denial or David Duke a racist for being in the KKK.

It's a perversion of the actual idea of tolerance (not the Limbaughian strawman definition of tolerance) to say that people need to accept bigotry because hey, accept everything.



This doesn't make a lick of difference to me, but I'm not gay. You can still feel empathy for those who are that might not like hearing that Torii Hunter thinks they are an affront to his belief structure.

Never said we should accept bigotry. What I said was that we should respect his opinion. Also, I don't think he called a news conference to espouse his views. I'm pretty sure he was asked a question and answered it honestly. The horror. I disagree with him, as do you, but unlike you I'm willing to accept his view without feeling the need to attack him for it. Does not mean for a moment that I condone bigotry, just that I believe that people are allowed freedom to think and say what they feel is right and that they should be allowed to do so without being attacked. Your view seems to be to attack anyone who disagrees with you without being able to move past it. You don't like his views? Neither do I. Let's not buy his jerseys or root for him when he plays, okay? I really don't see the need to take it further than that.

Yes, I feel empathy for people who are personally hurt by what Hunter and others feel, but unless he starts suggesting that they be beaten, fired, or anything like that I'd like to think that those people would pity him and his views more than anything else. As I said earlier, he may not know any gay people personally and seems like a guy with strong religious convictions. If those convictions tell him that gays are bad, I'd understand why he says he "might be uncomfortable". Maybe after the first shower in which his newly-discovered gay teammate doesn't try to rape him he'll realize that his religious views may be a little off and that he should review them further. Then again, I'm fairly anti-organized religion anyhow so that would be my bias.

[Yaz4Ever]

Another idiot who probably read Leviticus 20:13 after it was incorrectly translated a million times. I'm so tired of Christians practicing hatred in the name of god. It's the main reason I haven't been inside a church in so many years.

One of many, many reasons for me.

[armyguy25]

Another idiot who probably read Leviticus 20:13 after it was incorrectly translated a million times. I'm so tired of Christians practicing hatred in the name of god. It's the main reason I haven't been inside a church in so many years.

Someday, the human race will look back at organized religion with the same amusement that we look back on people living in medieval tims who believed in magic and alchemy.

[jacklamabe65]

Wouldn't it be something if Jesus came back and embraced both socialism and gay rights. They would probably deny him again.

[ccsubruce]

Wouldn't it be something if Jesus came back and embraced both socialism and gay rights. They would probably deny him again.

Brilliant, brilliant observation. Wow...

[Rasputin]

I find it funny that people who demand so much open-mindedness from others can be so closed-minded to others. He answered the question honestly. I disagree with him as do many others, obviously, but so what? If his opinion differs from yours, he's automatically wrong? Show tolerance if you'd like tolerance. I voted against the Marriage Amendment here in NC, but I still enjoy Chick-fil-A. The owner of that business is entitled to his opinion just as you and I are entitled to ours. Seriously, get over yourselves already.

I am so tired of this bullshit.

If someone disagrees with me and their position is that another group of people is bad or evil simply because they were born the wrong way then you're goddamn right they're wrong.

The notion that criticism of bigots be they anti-gay, anti-woman, or anti-anything else is the same as their bigotry is just fucking stupid. It is a false equivalency writ larger than the universe can contain.

Christian bigots write into law that bullying gay kids into suicide is just fucking dandy. In Pennsylvania they wanted to pass a law that women had to submit to a completely medically unnecessary transvaginal ultrasound (Oh hey, penetration against one's will? sounds like rape.) to have an abortion. There are more states where a man can legally marry his cousin than there are where he can marry another man.

You won't hear anyone saying that fundamentalist Christians shouldn't be allowed to marry whomever they love. You won't see anyone saying they don't deserve the same rights as everyone else. Only they don't want the same rights as everyone else, they want more and they feel like they are justified because they think God told them so.

Fuck that. Fuck them. The equivalency is false, it is bullshit, and you should be embarrassed to have made it.

[JohntheBaptist]

I'm sure Torii also has a huge problem, biblically, with the aberrant, marriage-cheating, Leviticus-shaming heterosexual behavior doubtlessly practiced by many of Torii's teammates over these very difficult years he's had as a human tolerating other humans.

Edited by JohntheBaptist, 30 December 2012 - 09:01 PM.

[Rasputin]

Someday, the human race will look back at organized religion with the same amusement that we look back on people living in medieval tims who believed in magic and alchemy.

Damn straight. The internet is, I think, the death blow to religion.

[Yaz4Ever]

Ras, if Hunter said he found them to be bad or evil and wanted to hurt them, I'd agree with you. His quote, "For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right," ... "It will be difficult and uncomfortable." tells me he'd be uncomfortable with them because of his religious beliefs and nothing else. We can all likely agree that he sounds terribly misguided and uninformed, but he doesn't seem to come across as someone who hates anyone or wishes them ill, just that he'd be uncomfortable with someone who was gay. This leads me to believe that he may be open to changing his mind as opposed to leading the charge to alienate this teammate. Then again, I could be wrong. Regardless, it's his opinion to a question posed to him and not something that defines the man in toto to me. We all have our faults and things that would make others very angry, it doesn't mean we're all evil people.

I'm far from a Christian bigot, but where have they written into law that bullying gay kids into suicide is just fucking dandy? That's far from the topic at hand (Hunter), but I still think it's a leap to claim that just as it's a leap for someone to feel uncomfortable around a group of people because it's what they think their bible says.

The forced transvaginal ultrasound thing and any state that says gays can't marry but cousins can are obviously disgusting to me as well, but again I think we're veering far off topic.

I don't think the equivalency is false and I'm not embarrassed to have made it. I'm sorry. Not trying to offend anyone, but I think one form of bigotry or verbal bullying is as bad as another.

edit: wtf happened to this post? Ugh. Hopefully it's fixed now.

Edited by Yaz4Ever, 30 December 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[armyguy25]

One wonders how Torrii (as an African-American male) reconciles the numerous biical passages not only permitting but endorsing the owning of other humans as property, even going so far as to lay out ground rules (i.e. when your slave has a wife that you've given him, even if your slave must be freed for one reason or another, the master still owns the wife and child, even though he no longer owns the slave)

Christians have a history of having no problems understNding for some things the absurdity of basing their moral code on a 2000 year old book (thankfully, most Christians realize the Bible is wrong to permit stoning a woman to death if she does not bleed on her wedding night) and yet use that one Leviticus passage as justification to deny other people basic human rights. And of course, they do it " reluctantly"...as in "hey loook, I'd love to just let The Gays be, and marry whoever they want. I really would. But the Bible says I cant. So, dont blame me. Im not a bigot. Its The Bible"

I think Hunter, like most people, is simply uncomfortable aroundbgay people for personal reasons, and is simply using the Bible as justification for his views.

[Rasputin]

Ras, if Hunter said he found them to be bad or evil and wanted to hurt them, I'd agree with you. His quote, "For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right," he says. "It will be difficult and uncomfortable." tells me he'd be uncomfortable not with them because of his religious beliefs nothing else. I'm far from a Christian bigot, but where have they written into law that bullying gay kids into suicide is just fucking dandy? That's far from the topic at hand (Hunter), but I still think it's a leap to claim that just as it's a leap for someone to feel uncomfortable around a group of people because it's what they think their bible says.

The forced transvaginal ultrasound thing and any state that says gays can't marry but cousins can are obviously disgusting to me as well, but again I think we're veering far off topic.

I don't think the equivalency is false and I'm not embarrassed to have made it. I'm sorry. Not trying to offend anyone, but I think one form of bigotry or verbal bullying is as bad as another.

No, we're not veering from the topic. The topic was your false equivalency. "Show tolerance if you'd like tolerance."

Calling people out on their bigotry is not intolerance and the fact that it comes from his religion doesn't make it better.

The bullying laws? Find me an anti-bullying law where Christians didn't try to get an exemption for sincerely held moral beliefs and they will be the exception. You can do the googling yourself, but the ones I remember were in Michigan, Tennessee, and, I think, New Jersey.

[Rasputin]

I think Hunter, like most people, is simply uncomfortable around gay people for personal reasons, and is simply using the Bible as justification for his views.

Ya think?

Maybe he was taught this hatred from the time he was a child. I dunno, athletes can live pretty isolated lives. Chances are he's shared a shower with a gay man somewhere along his athletic career and his attitude is a good part of the reason why that gay athlete kept his mouth shut.

[armyguy25]

Ya think?

Maybe he was taught this hatred from the time he was a child. I dunno, athletes can live pretty isolated lives. Chances are he's shared a shower with a gay man somewhere along his athletic career and his attitude is a good part of the reason why that gay athlete kept his mouth shut.

Most estimates say (at least) 5% of the population is gay. Thats 1 in 20. That means, statistically, odds are theres a homosexual on every single team in baseball. Torrii has probably had one on every team he's ever played on.

[Yaz4Ever]

No, we're not veering from the topic. The topic was your false equivalency. "Show tolerance if you'd like tolerance."

Calling people out on their bigotry is not intolerance and the fact that it comes from his religion doesn't make it better.

The bullying laws? Find me an anti-bullying law where Christians didn't try to get an exemption for sincerely held moral beliefs and they will be the exception. You can do the googling yourself, but the ones I remember were in Michigan, Tennessee, and, I think, New Jersey.

I asked you to show me a law that was written that said it was okay to bully someone into suicide. A bit hyperbolic and hurts your attempt to be taken seriously about your post.

Look, I'm not gay so I can't for a moment pretend to fully empathize with anyone who is gay and how they feel when reading that their orientation makes others feel "uncomfortable", but I do have people who I care VERY much for who are gay and the thought that people would intentionally do them harm is infuriating. All I was trying to say was that he gave his opinion and it should be respected, not agreed with. Anything beyond that was not intended to incite or anger anyone. I disagree with what he said, but feel he has the right to say it. End of discussion.

I'm also not Christian, so I have no interest in digging further into their religious beliefs. I was raised Catholic but haven't been to a mass in 30 years as I completely disagree with much of what the church stands for. That said, I respect those who do have faith and try to live their lives morally. When their faith causes them to hurt others, they lose my respect. So long as their faith (to paraphrase Christopher Titus) doesn't involve them stabbing me at an ATM, I have no reason to go out of my way to get involved further.

[mabrowndog]

"Uncomfortable" is a softer-toned cop-out word intended to hide a deeper sense of fear and disdain. What Hunter's really saying is that he doesn't want them around because, as URI noted, they're an affront to his belief structure. At no time does he say he'd be open to the experience. He rejects the sentiment out of hand because they're in direct conflict with his biblical teachings. So let's not equate his use of the word with a confused child who's "uncomfortable" being left alone, or sleeping in the dark.

It's like the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the Nazi colonel (Dietrich) disgustedly questions Belloq's plans to ceremonially open the Ark of the Covenant because he's "uncomfortable with the thought of this.... Jewish ritual." Hunter may not have spoken his words with the same audible tone of contempt, but he doesn't have to. He said enough to make it crystal clear how he really feels.

However, I'm glad people like Hunter are still willing to go public (or stupid enough to get baited into speaking) on stuff like this, as reprehensible as their thoughts and opinions may be, and regardless of the driving forces behind those thoughts and opinions. Their words serve as necessary reminders of the undercurrents of repression and prejudice that still percolate at all levels of athletics, and that there's a long, long way to go.

I really wish a reporter would ask him if he'd participate in MLB's "It Gets Better" campaign.

[Rasputin]

Most estimates say (at least) 5% of the population is gay. Thats 1 in 20. That means, statistically, odds are theres a homosexual on every single team in baseball. Torrii has probably had one on every team he's ever played on.

Chances are there are fewer gays in the population of athletes than there is in the population at large but still, yeah, he's shared a shower with a gay man.

I asked you to show me a law that was written that said it was okay to bully someone into suicide. A bit hyperbolic and hurts your attempt to be taken seriously about your post.

Not remotely hyperbolic.

Gay kid gets bullied into suicide. Parents and community convince legislature to pass anti-bullying legislation. Anti-bullying legislation gets passed with an exception if the bully is acting in sincere moral conviction. If that isn't Christians writing into the law that it's okay to bully gay kids into suicide then I don't know what is.

Look, I'm not gay so I can't for a moment pretend to fully empathize with anyone who is gay and how they feel when reading that their orientation makes others feel "uncomfortable", but I do have people who I care VERY much for who are gay and the thought that people would intentionally do them harm is infuriating. All I was trying to say was that he gave his opinion and it should be respected, not agreed with. Anything beyond that was not intended to incite or anger anyone. I disagree with what he said, but feel he has the right to say it. End of discussion.

Of course he has the right to say it. I respect his right to have whatever opinions he wants. I respect his right to share his opinions. I respect his right to act upon his beliefs so long as they don't harm others. I have absolutely no obligation to respect the substance of his beliefs.

If you don't want to anger people, don't compare them to people who go out of their way to ensure that there is less joy in the world.

[mabrowndog]

Ras, if Hunter said he found them to be bad or evil and wanted to hurt them, I'd agree with you. His quote, "For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right," ... "It will be difficult and uncomfortable." tells me he'd be uncomfortable with them because of his religious beliefs and nothing else. We can all likely agree that he sounds terribly misguided and uninformed, but he doesn't seem to come across as someone who hates anyone or wishes them ill, just that he'd be uncomfortable with someone who was gay. This leads me to believe that he may be open to changing his mind as opposed to leading the charge to alienate this teammate.

Here's the main problem: The bible, and its many perverted interpretations, teaches that homosexuality IS bad and evil. There's no middle ground in the passages most often quoted by the anti-gay religious movement:

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Hunter, by stating that he is a Christian and a subscriber to the bible's teaching, is agreeing with these verses and their interpretations. At no point does he say he isn't sure about them, or that perhaps there are other bible verses that may contradict the above. He's very straightforward about what he believes, and there's no wavering. So I'm not about to grant him any sort of pass on what he said, or reframe it in a kinder, gentler manner.

Edited by mabrowndog, 30 December 2012 - 10:05 PM.

[URI]

Never said we should accept bigotry. What I said was that we should respect his opinion.

Respecting a bigoted position is accepting bigotry. Don't mealy-mouth this. You may say that you don't have any problem with gays (which I do believe), but you haven't given me a good reason to not think that your defense of Hunter here isn't tacit acceptance of homophobia.

I disagree with him, as do you, but unlike you I'm willing to accept his view without feeling the need to attack him for it. Does not mean for a moment that I condone bigotry, just that I believe that people are allowed freedom to think and say what they feel is right and that they should be allowed to do so without being attacked.

I accept his view as bigoted (which it is) and I said so. But no, people should not be allowed to say what they want without being attacked...why is his free speech more protected or important than mine. People's statements have consequences, in the public eye or not.

If I yell fire in a crowded theatre and people are trampled to death, then yes I should be held responsible for the riot. If I tell one of my employees she has a nice ass, my boss should be able to tell me I'm fucking stupid. If i say I don't like gays, I should be told that I'm a bigot.

Your view seems to be to attack anyone who disagrees with you without being able to move past it. You don't like his views? Neither do I. Let's not buy his jerseys or root for him when he plays, okay? I really don't see the need to take it further than that.

I don't know what you mean by this in context. Other than expressing my opinion on Hunter, how am I "not moving past" something, or "taking it further" than buying his jersey or rooting for the Tigers? This is an empty statement you made.

Yes, I feel empathy for people who are personally hurt by what Hunter and others feel, but unless he starts suggesting that they be beaten, fired, or anything like that I'd like to think that those people would pity him and his views more than anything else. As I said earlier, he may not know any gay people personally and seems like a guy with strong religious convictions. If those convictions tell him that gays are bad, I'd understand why he says he "might be uncomfortable". Maybe after the first shower in which his newly-discovered gay teammate doesn't try to rape him he'll realize that his religious views may be a little off and that he should review them further. Then again, I'm fairly anti-organized religion anyhow so that would be my bias.

You don't see a problem, on a human level, with the line of thinking that it's ok to be a bigot until your proven bigotry is incorrect? He needs to not be raped by an openly gay teammate first? That is so ass backwards I can't really comprehend it.

Hunter knows gay people. He's had gay teammates. People like Torii Hunter are why Hunter (and you) don't realize it.

[Rasputin]

He needs to not be raped by an openly gay teammate first? That is so ass backwards I can't really comprehend it.

The juxtaposition of those two phrases amuses me to degrees that probably make me a horrible person.

[URI]

The juxtaposition of those two phrases amuses me to degrees that probably make me a horrible person.

Oh fuck it.

[Drocca]

Open-mindedness is a weird thread to take.

It isn't open-minded to care about people. It's just decency.

And, of course, it isn't open-minded to not respect an opinion of someone who doesn't care about people. It's common sense.

I'm open-minded about Hanrahan closing effectively this year. I am not open-minded when it comes to who people love. The very nature of open-minded is thinly veiled bullshit homophobia.

Edited by Drocca, 31 December 2012 - 08:03 AM.

[soxfan121]

However, I'm glad people like Hunter are still willing to go public (or stupid enough to get baited into speaking) on stuff like this, as reprehensible as their thoughts and opinions may be, and regardless of the driving forces behind those thoughts and opinions. Their words serve as necessary reminders of the undercurrents of repression and prejudice that still percolate at all levels of athletics, and that there's a long, long way to go.

I think that if someone sat Torii Hunter down and explained that in this scenario, he was on the side of the guys who yelled racist things at Jackie Robinson and that the "gay teammate" was Jackie Robinson, he'd get it.

I was disappointed that the article which sparked this little kerfluffle had not mentioned Shawn Thornton's comments on having a gay teammate.

[Carmine]

I am so tired of this bullshit.

If someone disagrees with me and their position is that another group of people is bad or evil simply because they were born the wrong way then you're goddamn right they're wrong.

I'd like Torii to go into a little more detail before claiming "he hates the gays".

[Sprowl]

Hunter (among others) were interviewed for this LA Times piece by Kevin Baxter entitled "In Pro Sports, Gay Athletes Still Feel Unwelcome".

Hunter's comments:

But former Angels outfielder Torii Hunter, among baseball's most thoughtful and intelligent players, isn't kidding when he says an "out" teammate could divide a team.

"For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it's not right," he says. "It will be difficult and uncomfortable."

Baxter's evaluation of Hunter's intelligence makes me equally uncomfortable. As a journalist, he should be called to account for his implicit endorsement for what seems to me to be a remarkably hidebound, slavish and unintelligent expression by Hunter, who really is homophobic is the classical sense.

Never said we should accept bigotry. What I said was that we should respect his opinion.

I don't think that his opinion should be respected. I think his right to have an opinion should be respected, and he should not be fired, bashed or lynched for having an opinion or expressing it, no matter how transparently phobic it is. I think his opinion, however, deserves no respect at all, and is getting the put-down it richly deserves.

[BoredViewer]

Someday, the human race will look back at organized religion with the same amusement that we look back on people living in medieval tims who believed in magic and alchemy.

A growing number of us already do.

[Foulkey Reese]

Medieval Tim is so closed minded.

[Rough Carrigan]

As a contrast to Torii, I hope some folks remember Mike Timlin. Reading between the lines, Timlin was a pretty conservative guy. You might recall that, at one point, he had some little flyer in his locker that had a peace symbol on it with the caption that it was the footprints of a chicken.

Anyway, when there was a brief sensation about someone anonymously saying in a gay magazine that he was a major league baseball player and talking about attitudes in the game.

For about a week, reporters were asking players what they would do if -gasp- they had a gay teammate. And Timlin responded that it wasn't any big deal. He said he'd previously knowingly gone to a team that had a gay player.

[TheWalthamKid]

I'm not agreeing with Hunter or anything, but baseball, like most sports, is a boys club. Maybe it's a little old-fashioned, but athletes are perceived to be idols that set an example for people. We all look up to guys like Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle and others as being the macho men of their days. The baseball clubhouse is really just one giant man-cave filled with guys doing what "red blooded" men do.

If a ballplayer on the team came out, don't you think that the clubhouse atmosphere would be different? Even just a little bit? Guys would act differently. Take the Spikes incident. That tweet is probably something said in the locker room all the time. But if their was an openly gay Patriot, Spikes probably never tweets that.

Hunter made a huge error in basically saying that being gay is wrong, and that it is a sin against god's wishes to be a homosexual, an atrocious thing to say and really makes me think differently about the guy.

Also, for laughs: http://www.theonion....xuality-b,2711/

[themactavish]

I suppose people are speaking loosely when they refer to Hunter as an idiot and such for having this opinion. But intelligence doesn't really have much to do with it. Call him an asshole, narrow-minded, bigoted, a shallow mouthpiece for selected Biblical hogwash, or cruel, but he can be all these things without being stupid. There is a difference between these vices and stupidity, even if they are sometimes associated. He could be a rocket scientist and still be an asshole in some key respects, and then again, he could be number than a pounded thumb and be a fair-minded, compassionate, decent guy. It's always good to keep in mind that assholes come in many shapes and sizes, and some precision with respect to what kind of asshole you're dealing with can come in mighty handy.

[Rough Carrigan]

There were players known to be gay on the 1960's Green Bay Packers. Dave Maranis (I think) did a biography of Vince Lombardi and didn't name the players but noted that Lombardi at one point upbraided a couple of his coaches for not being fair with those guys. If Vince freaking Lombardi and his players can deal with the issue 50 years ago, Torii can probably grow up and deal with it.

[JohntheBaptist]

As a contrast to Torii, I hope some folks remember Mike Timlin. Reading between the lines, Timlin was a pretty conservative guy. You might recall that, at one point, he had some little flyer in his locker that had a peace symbol on it with the caption that it was the footprints of a chicken.

Anyway, when there was a brief sensation about someone anonymously saying in a gay magazine that he was a major league baseball player and talking about attitudes in the game.

For about a week, reporters were asking players what they would do if -gasp- they had a gay teammate. And Timlin responded that it wasn't any big deal. He said he'd previously knowingly gone to a team that had a gay player.

Reminds me of of Mike Mussina--the alleged Bronx Bigot!--responding to the "would it bother you?" question with a shrug and a "Nope. I assume I already have."

Edited by JohntheBaptist, 31 December 2012 - 12:32 AM.

[502 to Right]

I'm not comfortable with most of the people on this board. And I certainly wouldn't want to shower with them.

Edited by 502 to Right, 31 December 2012 - 12:44 AM.

[Rasputin]

I'm not agreeing with Hunter or anything, but baseball, like most sports, is a boys club. Maybe it's a little old-fashioned, but athletes are perceived to be idols that set an example for people. We all look up to guys like Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle and others as being the macho men of their days. The baseball clubhouse is really just one giant man-cave filled with guys doing what "red blooded" men do.

I've never really been much of a hero worship kind of guy, but if I were, I think Ted Williams might be my man.