107 replies to this topic

[SoxScout]

On Dec. 9, after speaking to two influential NFL sources, I wrote that NFL Network analyst Michael Lombardi was a serious candidate to be the next general manager of the Browns should owner Jimmy Haslam and CEO Joe Banner decide to part ways with current GM Tom Heckert and head coach Pat Shurmur.

And if Lombardi was hired, Alabama coach Nick Saban would be the top target followed by Oregon coach Chip Kelly and Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels.

With the hiring of Alec Scheiner as Browns president on Tuesday, it looks like we’re a step closer to everything becoming reality.

One more log to throw on the fire: those two initial sources said that if Lombardi and McDaniels indeed team up in Cleveland, the chances are good that they will attempt to trade for Patriots backup quarterback Ryan Mallett and install him as the franchise quarterback. Brandon Weeden would be out, or in a backup role.

http://bostonglobe.c...pUEO/story.html

Banner will oversee football operations and, we’ve been told by sources, will name Lombardi – the ex-49ers scout, ex-Browns scout-turned-personnel director, ex-Eagles consultant, ex-Raiders personnel executive and current NFL Network analyst in his fifth year out of the NFL -- to a glorified player personnel director position.

http://espncleveland...17&post_id=9791

If a Belichick close friend and disciple both want to trade for your 24-year old backup quarterback to you 35-year old quarterback, you probably shouldn't do it, right? They aren't trading their Top 10 pick for him (right, right?) and they used their 2nd rounder during the supplemental draft...

[Ed Hillel]

That's a lot of ifs.

[E5 Yaz]

Regardless of whether the Browns scenario comes true, this would be a decent offseason to explore Mallet deals. You can easily see the Bills, Browns, Jaguars, Chiefs, Raiders, Cardinals and potentially the Eagles and Ravens looking for new QBs*.

The college crop doesn't seem to be very deep this year, and a Mallett, with 2 years of being a good citizen under his belt, could be attractive to someone.

Now, whether the second-half of the equation ... risking trading the backup to an aging Brady ... is wise is an entirely different matter.

*And, oh yeah, the Jets

[Rudy Pemberton]

If a Belichick close friend and disciple both want to trade for your 24-year old backup quarterback to you 35-year old quarterback, you probably shouldn't do it, right? They aren't trading their Top 10 pick for him (right, right?) and they used their 2nd rounder during the supplemental draft...

Not sure I understand this; but are you suggesting they would trade Brady instead? Not sure why the Browns would want him given his age / salary, nor why the Pats would trade him.

[Morning Woodhead]

I think Cassel is going to be looking for a job this off season. Let's get the band back together! If you can get a 2nd round pick for Mallett, I think you have to take it.

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

I think Cassel is going to be looking for a job this off season. Let's get the band back together! If you can get a 2nd round pick for Mallett, I think you have to take it.

Brian Hoyer is also likely to be unemployed.

[Dogman2]

Brian Hoyer is also likely to be unemployed.

That was my first thought if Mallett is ever traded.

[loshjott]

Not sure I understand this; but are you suggesting they would trade Brady instead? Not sure why the Browns would want him given his age / salary, nor why the Pats would trade him.

I think he's suggesting that every year Brady ages it becomes more important to have a competent back up behind him. And if the Pats believe Mallett is that guy, he becomes increasingly important to the Pats.

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

If you can get anything reasonable for Mallett, you take it. And you probably have a better chance of getting something reasonable from a team that employs McDaniels.

Mallett is basically worthless to us right now. He will leave via FA long before Brady retires and, if he's forced into games through injury, he's unlikely to be a meaningful improvement in the short term (due to inexperience) over whatever scrapheap QBs are out there for the taking. His value is tied up in the ability of a team to hand him the reins and let him learn on the job for a while. We're not in the position to do that and, barring disaster, won't be for another few years.

[Ralphwiggum]

Brady has not really shown any signs of being in decline. Obviously the older he gets the more likely it is he'll end up missing some time due to injury, but over the next two years (the time period during which the Pats have Mallett under contract) I think it is probably worth the gamble if you can get a high 2nd round pick for Mallett.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Mallett is basically worthless to us right now. He will leave via FA long before Brady retires

This. Brady has shown no signs of slowing down. You have to think he's got another 3 or 4 years left in him, whether those are all prime years or not. I don't think we'll ever see him lose the starting job to a backup (though obviously anything can happen with BB). So yes, Mallett will probably end up being a FA before he got a shot here. I'd take a 2nd but the Browns don't have one, so then you're pushing another year into the future and I see that being an issue.

[Super Nomario]

If you can get a first or a second for Mallet, I think you have to do it. Maybe something like a 5th next year, and a 2nd the year after that has a chance to be a first based on incentives?

Lombardi seems to have a hard-on for Belichick's guys; he was all about acquiring Brian Hoyer a couple seasons ago.

[lostjumper]

The QB crop in the 2013 draft is extremely weak, and besides Alex Smith(who will get traded or released) there's not alot to get excited about if your team needs a qb. It would be great if Mallett could get some serious playing in the next 2 games and raise his stock. There's a decent chance the Pat's could get a high 2nd round pick if that scenario worked out.

[Hendu for Kutch]

I'm sure the folks in Cleveland couldn't be more excited about another Belichick disciple riding in to save the day.

[dynomite]

They aren't trading their Top 10 pick for him (right, right?) and they used their 2nd rounder during the supplemental draft...

Correct: According to walterfootball.com the Browns are currently picking 8th in the 2013 NFL Draft and have 1st/3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th Rounders to deal.

The trade market for current backup QBs could be active. Mallett with the Pats, Matt Flynn with the Seahawks, Kirk Cousins with the Redskins, etc.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Don't forget about Tim Tebow!

[C4CRVT]

His arm is absurd. I'd love to know what people think of his ability to read defenses/ what the scouting reports are on him. Coming out of the draft, the only big questions about him were makeup related which I can only assume have been answered.

If not for the Kolb experiment having been a failure, I could see AZ making a move for him. If not for the failed Cassell experiment, I could see KC making a move for him. His market should realistically be all three teams.

Maybe it's the homer in me but I think his ceiling is higher than anyone else avaialble to those three teams (and the Jets but he's not going there).

[mpx42]

Having a good backup quarterback is not worthless...the 2001 AFC Championship Game? If we're talking a first or second rounder, then that makes sense I guess. Kinda seems ridiculous to just dump Weeden after once season unless you're 100 percent sure Mallett is your guy, particularly with the complete lack of talented receivers on the Browns' offense this year.

[Ralphwiggum]

Nobody said that having a good backup QB is worthless.

[Harry Hooper]

As Joe Theismann would point out, it's also worth acknowledging that the career of a NFL QB can end abruptly.

[mpx42]

Nobody said that having a good backup QB is worthless.

Mallett is basically worthless to us right now

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Inanity

Have you followed the conversation at all or put any serious effort into reading comprehension?

[dcmissle]

What's the realistic ceiling on his value -- a mid-round 2nd? I guess you evaluate that against your assessment of this year's draft.

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

What's the realistic ceiling on his value -- a mid-round 2nd? I guess you evaluate that against your assessment of this year's draft.

Sounds about right. Although I would take less if that was the only deal on the table this offseason.

[Ralphwiggum]

Yeah, nowhere in that post does it say having a good backup QB is worthless. He pretty much explains what he means in the rest of the post you quoted.

[Tony C]

he's unlikely to be a meaningful improvement in the short term (due to inexperience) over whatever scrapheap QBs are out there for the taking. His value is tied up in the ability of a team to hand him the reins and let him learn on the job for a while. We're not in the position to do that and, barring disaster, won't be for another few years.

you were being misquoted/taken out of context on the "worthless" part, but in terms of the meat of your actual post, I'm not sure I agree. I mean, we have no way of knowing really since we have only seen glimpses of Mallet, but:

-we've seen some really bad off the scrap QBs this year
-with the fresh example Cousins coming off the bench and playing really well the last two weeks, we have seen a 4th round pick (not to mention Russell, a 3rd rounder like Mallett) be productive as rookies.
-Mallett supposedly had 1st round talent, with the only issue his character -- an issue I'm guessing has been answered by his being a good camper since a Pat and the Pats dropping Hoyer.

Why would we assume, then, that as a short term replacement he'd be no better than a scrap heap guy? He has talent, experience in practice and watching TB, and knows the system.

And, beyond the short term, per the last line of your post, "barring a disaster." Yes, but in case of a disaster...

[soxfan121]

1. I have to wonder what McDaniels has been told by BB about the future. Is he the heir apparent? Is he doing time as a coordinator (like BB did after flunking out in CLE) and working on his "first time around" issues? (i.e. dealing with the players, the media, scouting, etc.) Or is McDaniels putting in a year, rehabbing his image and ready to jump back into the HC role, knowing another failure turns him into a lifetime OC or a college HC?

As a McDaniels fan (as an OC) I'm very interested in what happens next.

2. If Lombardi is the new GM/player personnel guy in Cleveland and he wants a Patriots QB...why would he target Mallet instead of Brian Hoyer? He's had lots of good things to say about Hoyer in the past and Hoyer was unemployed for most of the year until hooking on in Philly to backup Nick Foles. I can't imagine that Hoyer is part of the long-term plan in Philly, so he's likely to be unemployed again. Obviously, acquiring Hoyer would be cheaper than acquiring Mallet.

2a. If the Patriots DO trade Mallet...do they bring back Hoyer as the backup? Do they pursue Tebow and let McDaniels continue his fetish/experiment in the background for the next few seasons?

3. Would the poor people of Cleveland riot if the most recent "1st round QB" (Weeden) is chucked overboard by a new regime run by ex-Belichick disciples, who then install either Brady's backup or Brady's OTHER backup...who was a street free agent for most of the 2012 season? Are the good people of Cleveland really ready to hire their THIRD Belichick disciple in ten years? Are there good people in Cleveland?

[MainerInExile]

The Pats drafted Mallet in the third. Would a second really be enough to get it done? Put another way, if the Pats two years ago had tried to trade that pick for a 2013 2nd, a bunch of teams would have jumped, no?

[Grimace-HS]

What's the realistic ceiling on his value -- a mid-round 2nd? I guess you evaluate that against your assessment of this year's draft.

1. I have to wonder what McDaniels has been told by BB about the future. Is he the heir apparent? Is he doing time as a coordinator (like BB did after flunking out in CLE) and working on his "first time around" issues? (i.e. dealing with the players, the media, scouting, etc.) Or is McDaniels putting in a year, rehabbing his image and ready to jump back into the HC role, knowing another failure turns him into a lifetime OC or a college HC?

As a McDaniels fan (as an OC) I'm very interested in what happens next.

...............................

This whole story combined with what many of you have said adds to my feeling that we are almost in "no man's land" as far as timing and transitioning to the future. I've tried to periodically Google "Mallet development" or "BB future plans" and naturally get nothing suggestive of anything. Having gone through the Eason/Grogan years (throw Flutie and a few others in there), I was pining for the "franchise QB" and thought we were the luckiest team to have Bledsoe (and he did help revive the franchise), but had no idea how good or spoiled we could get with Brady. And we all know the head coaches that have come and gone, so to end up with BB is doubly satisfying. But all of this also has me concerned that we don't overnight go right back down to perpetual rebuilders once Brady/BB call it quits.

Drafting Mallet seemed a bit different than other QB projects because of his reported huge upside and "1st round talent". But I also didn't expect to see Brady so consistently good at this age where he very well may have that 3-4 years left and Mallet would walk as a free agent. You almost wish you would know the hard time limit to Brady so we don't potentially trade the future and then be stuck continually rebuilding. The fact that we really haven't seen him play much makes it much more difficult to determine if he is a legit starter or his potential is better than what will be realized. Perhaps this mystery adds to his value for some desperate teams, but I really can't see getting a first rounder unless we showcased him for a good amount of time...Cassel gets the 34th pick and had a season of success as a selling point. Barring the disaster scenarios mentioned, showcasing won't happen either. I just wish I knew what we were dealing with as far as Mallet's abilities and potential. I'd say a second rounder would be best case, with third rounder more likely.

As for Josh, I would have to believe that he would stay if given some realistic indication that he would be the next coach. Sticking around New England as an assistant for a few years to then have one of the best franchises in sports under your control would be much more appealing than going to Cleveland (or almost any other team for that matter). Although the Josh/Ohio roots may make him think a bit differently and who really knows what BB is thinking...

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

you were being misquoted/taken out of context on the "worthless" part, but in terms of the meat of your actual post, I'm not sure I agree. I mean, we have no way of knowing really since we have only seen glimpses of Mallet, but:

-we've seen some really bad off the scrap QBs this year
-with the fresh example Cousins coming off the bench and playing really well the last two weeks, we have seen a 4th round pick (not to mention Russell, a 3rd rounder like Mallett) be productive as rookies.
-Mallett supposedly had 1st round talent, with the only issue his character -- an issue I'm guessing has been answered by his being a good camper since a Pat and the Pats dropping Hoyer.

Why would we assume, then, that as a short term replacement he'd be no better than a scrap heap guy? He has talent, experience in practice and watching TB, and knows the system.

And, beyond the short term, per the last line of your post, "barring a disaster." Yes, but in case of a disaster...

I guess my phrase "scrap heap guy" was pretty vague and open to interpretation. I agree that there are some 2nd and 3rd QBs, especially minimum salary guys who just made a team and don't have much league experience, that would likely be a lot worse than Mallett. But I think there are a number of more proven backups out there that would be available in the offseason and that wouldn't be a significant downgrade - if at all - from a Mallett that has never really taken NFL snaps. I'm thinking about guys like Matt Moore, Kyle Orton, Dan Orlovsky, or (as mentioned by several folks) Brian Hoyer.

As the end of your post suggests, I agree that the best rationale for keeping Mallett is that he constitutes the best possible contingency plan if something terrible happens to Brady that would keep him out a whole year or cuts his career short. But, ultimately, if the choice is Ryan Mallett or Matt Moore (or equivalent) and a 2nd round pick (or even slightly less), then I'd be willing to take that risk.

[86spike]

As a Broncos fan I would like to state that any team that hires Josh McDaniels as head coach deserves all the misfortune he will bring them.

[soxfan121]

As a Broncos fan I would like to state that any team that hires Josh McDaniels as head coach deserves all the misfortune he will bring them.

Cleveland Browns superfan 86MackByner said the same thing to Patriots fans in 2000.

[86spike]

Cleveland Browns superfan 86MackByner said the same thing to Patriots fans in 2000.

McDaniels in Denver was ten times the wreck that BB was in Cleveland. It's not even comparable. McDaniels had nomfucking clue how to run that team and fucked up almost everything he touched. And he was implicated in a cheating scandal!

If he gets a second chance, I am very confident he will fuck up again. He's just not NFL head coach material. He is a terrible leader. He can design a great offense though. He should stick with that.

[soxfan121]

When Belichick was done in Cleveland, they had to move the franchise out of town.

When McDaniels was done in Denver, there was still a team in Denver.

Point, McDaniels.

[lexrageorge]

McDaniels in Denver was ten times the wreck that BB was in Cleveland. It's not even comparable. McDaniels had nomfucking clue how to run that team and fucked up almost everything he touched. And he was implicated in a cheating scandal!

If he gets a second chance, I am very confident he will fuck up again. He's just not NFL head coach material. He is a terrible leader. He can design a great offense though. He should stick with that.

I've heard the same thing about multiple assistants the first time they've become head coaches. Some, like Belichick, get better from the experience. Others flame out and are never heard from again. Others, like Norv Turner, never get better but manage to get photos of the GM and owner in compromising positions and never leave.

[dcmissle]

When Belichick was done in Cleveland, they had to move the franchise out of town.

When McDaniels was done in Denver, there was still a team in Denver.

Point, McDaniels.

Modell moving the team to Baltimore had nothing to do with on-field issues. Nothing. It stemmed from Art Modell's financial mismanagement.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

If he gets a second chance, I am very confident he will fuck up again. He's just not NFL head coach material. He is a terrible leader. He can design a great offense though. He should stick with that.

Same exact shit they said about BB after Cleveland, except that BB could design an awesome defense.

Some guys really do learn from experience and maturity.

Christ, look at Pete Carroll, an utter failure with the Jets and a hopeless mediocrity with the Pats. Now having success with Seattle.

[JokersWildJIMED]

There is no way they would trade Mallet for anything less than an extremely high second, but probably a low first. They picked the guy as a high three (which was a steal) and have absolutely no incentive to give him away just to make another team better.

[dcmissle]

The Pats drafted Mallet in the third. Would a second really be enough to get it done? Put another way, if the Pats two years ago had tried to trade that pick for a 2013 2nd, a bunch of teams would have jumped, no?

It's not what the Pats invested in him that matters, it's what the market will bear now. Santa is not dropping off a first-round pick for Mallet, it seems to me.

Kolb and Cassel were flipped for second rounders, plus and minus. Both had substantial experience in games that matter; Cassel had resounding success. Both have been great disappointments. Mallet has yet to hit the field in a game that means anything. Hell, Kirk Cousins has shown more in the regular season in his rookie year, and there is some thought here of flipping him for a secound-rounder because the Redksins cupboard is bare. That's not Mallet's fault, it's reality.

Plus, you're going to have a lot of moving QBs who will require no investment of draft picks. Why would you part with a 1st rounder given the value of first rounders.

[NortheasternPJ]

Same exact shit they said about BB after Cleveland, except that BB could design an awesome defense.

Some guys really do learn from experience and maturity.

Christ, look at Pete Carroll, an utter failure with the Jets and a hopeless mediocrity with the Pats. Now having success with Seattle.

I tried to find it awhile back but Felger was reading an article by Michael Holley about how if the Patriots hired Belichick it'd be the worst move the franchise could make, he was beyond hope and couldn't run a team. It was absolutely scathing.

I couldnt' find it but someone with a Globe account probably could.

[dcmissle]

I tried to find it awhile back but Felger was reading an article by Michael Holley about how if the Patriots hired Belichick it'd be the worst move the franchise could make, he was beyond hope and couldn't run a team. It was absolutely scathing.

I couldnt' find it but someone with a Globe account probably could.

I recall the article. Yes, Holley was scathing. BB was big enough about it to allow Holley exclusive access for a season to write his book.

[soxfan121]

Modell moving the team to Baltimore had nothing to do with on-field issues. Nothing. It stemmed from Art Modell's financial mismanagement.

It wasn't obvious that was sarcasm? What else could I have done - special font, tags, ??

[lexrageorge]

It's not what the Pats invested in him that matters, it's what the market will bear now. Santa is not dropping off a first-round pick for Mallet, it seems to me.

Kolb and Cassel were flipped for second rounders, plus and minus. Both had substantial experience in games that matter; Cassel had resounding success. Both have been great disappointments. Mallet has yet to hit the field in a game that means anything. Hell, Kirk Cousins has shown more in the regular season in his rookie year, and there is some thought here of flipping him for a secound-rounder because the Redksins cupboard is bare. That's not Mallet's fault, it's reality.

Plus, you're going to have a lot of moving QBs who will require no investment of draft picks. Why would you part with a 1st rounder given the value of first rounders.

I agree with your assessment of the market for Ryan Mallet. Which begs the question, why should the Patriots trade him if his trade value is nil?

[jsinger121]

If I were in Cleveland's shoes I wouldn't trade draft picks for Ryan Mallett when they need to put more talent around Brandon Weeden. While Weeden may be 29 he has not had a bad season for a rookie. He has really only 2 good skill position players in Trent Richardson and Josh Gordon. The focus should not be trading draft picks for Mallett. It should be using those draft picks on a WR and TE.

[Tony C]

... But, ultimately, if the choice is Ryan Mallett or Matt Moore (or equivalent) and a 2nd round pick (or even slightly less), then I'd be willing to take that risk.

agreed (except I agree that he should be worth at least a high 2nd if not a 1st).

[Tony C]

When Belichick was done in Cleveland, they had to move the franchise out of town.

When McDaniels was done in Denver, there was still a team in Denver.

Point, McDaniels.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

If I were in Cleveland's shoes I wouldn't trade draft picks for Ryan Mallett when they need to put more talent around Brandon Weeden. While Weeden may be 29 he has not had a bad season for a rookie. He has really only 2 good skill position players in Trent Richardson and Josh Gordon. The focus should not be trading draft picks for Mallett. It should be using those draft picks on a WR and TE.

So is Colt McCoy permanently damaged goods now?

[dcmissle]

Holmgren has done a bang up job there, hasn't he? After his brilliant work as GM in Seattle.

This is not an easy business,

[Super Nomario]

If I were in Cleveland's shoes I wouldn't trade draft picks for Ryan Mallett when they need to put more talent around Brandon Weeden. While Weeden may be 29 he has not had a bad season for a rookie. He has really only 2 good skill position players in Trent Richardson and Josh Gordon. The focus should not be trading draft picks for Mallett. It should be using those draft picks on a WR and TE.

Weeden is 30th (among 35 qualifying QBs) in completion %, 30th in TD%, 30th in INT%, 27th in Y/A, 32nd in QB Rating, 33rd in QBR, 32nd in WPA, 24th in EPA ... he stinks. It's fair to say the cast around him isn't stellar and maybe it makes sense to work on that before throwing another QB into the mix, but Weeden hasn't shown anything to suggest he's the answer.

[Shelterdog]

So is Colt McCoy permanently damaged goods now?

I don't think the "damaged" is his biggest issue although having concussions and a helicopter dad commenting on how bad the coaching staff is doesn't help. His real problem is he's a short guy (6'1" at the combine) with (by NFL standards) a noodle arm. The list of players who have succeeded with those attributes is, well, nobody.

Edited by Shelterdog, 20 December 2012 - 10:14 AM.