107 replies to this topic

[RedOctober3829]

If that comes to fruition, I have to imagine that we'd be the front runners for Hamilton, right?

I would think so. But, does that actually take the Rangers out of the running for Hamilton or do they then set their sights squarely on signing Greinke?

[Drek717]

If that comes to fruition, I have to imagine that we'd be the front runners for Hamilton, right?

Ken Rosenthal also has a column up recently where he said the Rangers are very unlikely to sign both Hamilton and Greinke, so there are two clear avenues (trade for Upton, sign Greinke) that aren't mutually exclusive to each other but both exclude a Hamilton return to Texas.

At that point it would be us and the Mariners, with the Yankees as a dark horse. Rumors from earlier in the week was that Hamilton was leaning Rangers/Red Sox, not real interested in the Mariners.

If the Rangers sign Greinke they might move some pitching to go after Ellsbury, teaming him with Upton would be 2/3rds of a real nice outfield. The Mariners could also get real interested if everyone keeps refusing to take their money.

I would think Upton to the Rangers is entirely dependent on what the Rangers are willing to give for him. I'd imagine a Andrus for Upton deal straight up would make Arizona more than happy, so how much extra do the Rangers feel they NEED to extract from the Diamondbacks in addition to Upton?

[Laser Show]

I would think so. But, does that actually take the Rangers out of the running for Hamilton or do they then set their sights squarely on signing Greinke?

Someone tweeted earlier that Greinke-Hamilton was a "one or the other" thing for Texas.

On a side note, Olney just tweeted that the Royals are in on this Arizona-Cleveland multi-team deal too. Things are about to get really interesting.

[Corsi]

Red Sox source: "Nobody is safe."

https://twitter.com/...380331425275904

[SMU_Sox]

https://twitter.com/...380331425275904

We have all this potential ML talent in the farm system. Yes, it is potential but the odds are a good amount of our minor leaguers will get to the bigs. Even if just 3-4 do that's 3-4 cost controlled players! Then again this is just a quote on twitter and I'm overreacting. Can't help but worrying though.

[Laser Show]

We have all this potential ML talent in the farm system. Yes, it is potential but the odds are a good amount of our minor leaguers will get to the bigs. Even if just 3-4 do that's 3-4 cost controlled players! Then again this is just a quote on twitter and I'm overreacting. Can't help but worrying though.

I took that to mean the "no one is safe on the major league team." Don't think it includes the farm.

[E5 Yaz]

Curt Schilling@gehrig38
Phillies call Boston, Lee for Ellsbury

nevermind, curt being an idiot

Curt Schilling

@gehrig38
Btw that was me asking for it to happen

Edited by E5 Yaz, 05 December 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[Rovin Romine]

I don't get the Lee love.

If Lee was on the open market, would you sign him to a three year $25 million per deal, for his age 34-36 seasons? With a fourth year $27 mil vesting option ($12 mil buyout) for his age 37 season?

Lee's a great starting pitcher, but he's getting older. That contract would eat up a lot of the Sox's margin toward the luxury tax limit. If Lee went down, it'll be more difficult to replace a starting pitcher with so much money tied up in Lee. On the plus side, if he crashed and burned (no vesting), he'd be off the books in 2015.


**
IF it were a question of a one for one swap, I'd almost prefer Dickey, except that even if Dickey reproduced his best season (2012) in 2013, he and Ells are a wash, provided Ells produces in 2013 at 75% of his best season - which seems to be plausible.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

If Lee was on the open market, would you sign him to a three year $25 million per deal, for his age 34-36 seasons? With a fourth year $27 mil vesting option ($12 mil buyout) for his age 37 season?

In a cocaine heartbeat. He didn't get any wins last year but he was still an ace and has thrown over 200 innings the last 5 years. I would consider that scenario as the perfect storm of flexibility in acquiring a premier player.

[JimBoSox9]

8.33 million per year for 3 years? If that was on the table and my GM didn't jump at it I think I'd fire him on the spot. That's 50% of John Lackey money, and the FA market hasn't grown leaner in the past three years.

[Corsi]

8.33 million per year for 3 years? If that was on the table and my GM didn't jump at it I think I'd fire him on the spot. That's 50% of John Lackey money, and the FA market hasn't grown leaner in the past three years.

$25M per season, not total.

[Cellar-Door]

8.33 million per year for 3 years? If that was on the table and my GM didn't jump at it I think I'd fire him on the spot. That's 50% of John Lackey money, and the FA market hasn't grown leaner in the past three years.

3 years 75. plus a 12M buyout so basically 3years 87
or 3 years 102M

[JimBoSox9]

Yeah, pretty obviously missed the "per" in his sentence. On the bright side, question makes a lot more sense now.

[RedOctober3829]

Heyman says the Sox will consider taking back prospects in a trade for Ellsbury.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Heyman says the Sox will consider taking back prospects in a trade for Ellsbury.

That makes sense. Ellsbury by himself probably isn't going to return a significant MLB player that greatly moves the needle. Turning Ellsbury into Cliff Lee or even R.A. Dickey is a pipe dream at best. I'd imagine his ceiling is getting a Derek Holland type. Turning him into a prospect or two that could have an impact in 2014 and beyond is probably the best chance of maximizing whatever value he may have.

[Rovin Romine]

Yeah, pretty obviously missed the "per" in his sentence. On the bright side, question makes a lot more sense now.

Sorry about that. Anyway, it's what Lee is owed right now.

***

I agree Ellsbury for prospects makes the most sense. If they do that though, it'll be the strongest sign they view 2013 as a "maybe/maybe-not" year in terms of fielding a contender. I think they could still contend without Ellsbury, and that it makes more sense to trade him now, but the media will probably howl.

[SoxScout]

Gammons on NESN: "Someone with the Red Sox told me Ellsbury will not be traded, at least before the season."

"Ellsbury will not re-sign in Philly. The Red Sox bigger concern is getting back to respectability and getting 1 prospect for Ells is not worth it."

Also, "I doubt Lester will be traded, but they are talking."

"Next year the CF market is Ells and Granderson, Victorino's going to have a lot of value."

And just to get this on the record, "Kalish is healthy and foaming at the mouth. He is going to play a lot, he might play some 1B."

Edited by SoxScout, 05 December 2012 - 06:39 PM.

[gammoseditor]

Sorry about that. Anyway, it's what Lee is owed right now.

***

I agree Ellsbury for prospects makes the most sense. If they do that though, it'll be the strongest sign they view 2013 as a "maybe/maybe-not" year in terms of fielding a contender. I think they could still contend without Ellsbury, and that it makes more sense to trade him now, but the media will probably howl.

If they trade Ellsbury for prospects and then sign Josh Hamilton they can make the team better now and add some prospects. They still have the money and if the Rangers sign Greinke the market might not be there for Hamilton.

[Rovin Romine]

If they trade Ellsbury for prospects and then sign Josh Hamilton they can make the team better now and add some prospects. They still have the money and if the Rangers sign Greinke the market might not be there for Hamilton.

That might work. It would put an awful lot of pressure on Hamilton, especially if he's not out performing Ellsbury in 2013 while earning twice the salary. Ellsbury isn't a fan fav like Youk was, but the Reddick/Youks watch was on full-force last year. (I admit to being drawn in myself.)

I know Hamilton's issues have been discussed elsewhere re: substance abuse, but making him the default highest paid player on the Sox. . . I don't know. I can hear the media knives being sharpened. I have no idea if that would affect Hamilton's play (or other issues) at all though. Just a thought.

[gammoseditor]

That might work. It would put an awful lot of pressure on Hamilton, especially if he's not out performing Ellsbury in 2013 while earning twice the salary. Ellsbury isn't a fan fav like Youk was, but the Reddick/Youks watch was on full-force last year. (I admit to being drawn in myself.)

I know Hamilton's issues have been discussed elsewhere re: substance abuse, but making him the default highest paid player on the Sox. . . I don't know. I can hear the media knives being sharpened. I have no idea if that would affect Hamilton's play (or other issues) at all though. Just a thought.

I agree there is a ton of risk on Hamilton. I just don't agree that trading Ellsbury would signify a step back in 2013. It would mean we'd add another OFer. Considering how inconsistent Ellsbury has been, it could easily be a step forward.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

That might work. It would put an awful lot of pressure on Hamilton, especially if he's not out performing Ellsbury in 2013 while earning twice the salary. Ellsbury isn't a fan fav like Youk was, but the Reddick/Youks watch was on full-force last year. (I admit to being drawn in myself.)

I know Hamilton's issues have been discussed elsewhere re: substance abuse, but making him the default highest paid player on the Sox. . . I don't know. I can hear the media knives being sharpened. I have no idea if that would affect Hamilton's play (or other issues) at all though. Just a thought.

Unless we're expecting Ellsbury's performance to be a repeat of his 2011 (146 OPS+), I don't think it's a huge risk to think that Hamilton can outperform Ellsbury in 2013. Hamilton's OPS+ over the last three years is 146 (170, 130, 139 individually).

The risk on Hamilton really isn't 2013 or 2014. It's 2015 and beyond.

[Drek717]

Gammons on NESN: "Someone with the Red Sox told me Ellsbury will not be traded, at least before the season."

"Ellsbury will not re-sign in Philly. The Red Sox bigger concern is getting back to respectability and getting 1 prospect for Ells is not worth it."

Nice to see the FO using Gammons to send out the "come big or go home" message to would be Ellsbury suitors.

I can't imagine the Sox haven't done the calculus on shipping Ells out for a top tier prospect and then signing Hamilton if his market dries up via Texas moving on to something else though. The potential for that is too tempting not to at least kick the tires and see where it's at. Maybe they're waiting to see how the Greinke and Upton situations resolve themselves before making their next move regarding Ellsbury, since if Texas fails to get both Greinke and Upton they'll likely beat all bidders on Hamilton, but if they land one/both they'll likely walk away from Hamilton entirely.

Now should be the time to focus on moving Salty and exploring the options out there for Lester. The Greinke/Upton situations should be sorted out soon enough, so time to clear field of other obstacles.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Trading Ellsbury for prospects means Ben is either planning on acquiring another outfielder with Victorino likely moving to center, or that the front office has a lot more faith in Ryan Kalish than most of us at this point. Considering the reports that the Red Sox are still looking for another outfielder, I'm guessing Gammo's comment about Kalish seeing a lot of playing time this year might be a bit of an embellishment or he could be talking out of his arse. Either way, I have a hard time seeing the front office viewing Kalish as more than a 4th or 5th outfielder for the 2013 season.

Maybe they're hoping he'll force the issue by playing extremely well, and maybe he will, but it seems to me that if they hope to contend this season, they'll need to replace Ellsbury with an established major league outfielder of some kind, or pull the trigger on the supposed Myers deal. Of course, the latter option is probably less likely to work out in the very near future and is more of a long term move.

[Cellar-Door]

"Next year the CF market is Ells and Granderson, Victorino's going to have a lot of value."

Most of the Gammons conversation was mouthpiecing, but I completely agree with this. The CF prices are going up (especially if the rumor that CLE offered 4-44 for Victorino is true) and there aren't many available this year or next. If Victorino has a decent year he might be very attractive as a trade chip on a 2 year 26M deal next offseason.

[JakeRae]

If they trade Ellsbury for prospects and then sign Josh Hamilton they can make the team better now and add some prospects. They still have the money and if the Rangers sign Greinke the market might not be there for Hamilton.

The prospects received back for Ellsbury would have to exceed the value of a compensatory draft pick in 2 years (from Ellsbury walking in a year) and the 2nd round pick that would be lost in signing him for trading Ellsbury and adding Hamilton to actually add prospect value to the system. I'd say that the best offers we could expect for Ellsbury would only marginally exceed that value, so we are essentially talking about a prospect talent wash with some additional value from getting players closer to MLB rather than draft picks. Then, you have to ask yourself if you would really rather have Hamilton at 4/$110 or 5/$130 or Ellsbury on a 1/$10 deal. A trade like this might very well make the Red Sox better in 2013, but I don't think the future cost of the bloated contract Hamilton will receive is going to be worth the marginal talent upgrade they will get from doing something like this.

[gammoseditor]

The prospects received back for Ellsbury would have to exceed the value of a compensatory draft pick in 2 years (from Ellsbury walking in a year) and the 2nd round pick that would be lost in signing him for trading Ellsbury and adding Hamilton to actually add prospect value to the system. I'd say that the best offers we could expect for Ellsbury would only marginally exceed that value, so we are essentially talking about a prospect talent wash with some additional value from getting players closer to MLB rather than draft picks. Then, you have to ask yourself if you would really rather have Hamilton at 4/$110 or 5/$130 or Ellsbury on a 1/$10 deal. A trade like this might very well make the Red Sox better in 2013, but I don't think the future cost of the bloated contract Hamilton will receive is going to be worth the marginal talent upgrade they will get from doing something like this.

If that's the best they could do for Ellsbury that he's not going anywhere. A compensation pick is likely not a top 10 prospect in a system right away. I think they could do better for Ellsbury. I also think you're high on your Hamilton numbers, especially if Greinke signs with Texas.

[JakeRae]

Trading Ellsbury for prospects means Ben is either planning on acquiring another outfielder with Victorino likely moving to center, or that the front office has a lot more faith in Ryan Kalish than most of us at this point. Considering the reports that the Red Sox are still looking for another outfielder, I'm guessing Gammo's comment about Kalish seeing a lot of playing time this year might be a bit of an embellishment or he could be talking out of his arse. Either way, I have a hard time seeing the front office viewing Kalish as more than a 4th or 5th outfielder for the 2013 season.

Maybe they're hoping he'll force the issue by playing extremely well, and maybe he will, but it seems to me that if they hope to contend this season, they'll need to replace Ellsbury with an established major league outfielder of some kind, or pull the trigger on the supposed Myers deal. Of course, the latter option is probably less likely to work out in the very near future and is more of a long term move.

Well, he could see a lot of playing time as the 4th outfielder. If they platoon Gomes away from Fenway, let Kalish start 10-15 games against RHP in Fenway for Victorino (these would be Victorino's rest days), and have him spell Ellsbury, you're already talking about around 70 starts for Kalish even assuming perfect health. (This assumes that the interest in another outfielder is part of gauging the market on Ellsbury and isn't real unless he is moved.) If he picks up a 1B mitt, that's 80 games with everyone healthy and assuming Napoli never catches. He would also serve as a frequent late inning defensive replacement for Gomes. Add all that up, and that's a pretty significant chunk of playing time prior to accounting for injuries.

[Harry Hooper]

Maybe one of the local scribes covering the team could write about Farrell's relationship with Ellsbury -- has it been a good one, or negative to the extent of being another reason why Ellsbury will not be interested in re-signing here?

[TheGoldenGreek33]

Maybe one of the local scribes covering the team could write about Farrell's relationship with Ellsbury -- has it been a good one, or negative to the extent of being another reason why Ellsbury will not be interested in re-signing here?

What makes you think Farrell, or anyone in the org for that matter, would say anything negative about Ellsbury when they're shopping him? Even if they weren't shopping him, finding dirt on that situation is not happening.

edit: Then again, this is the Boston media we're talking about. I digress.

Edited by TheGoldenGreek33, 05 December 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[Harry Hooper]

Farrell was here before; it's more a matter of reporting history than launching a new investigation.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Well, he could see a lot of playing time as the 4th outfielder. If they platoon Gomes away from Fenway, let Kalish start 10-15 games against RHP in Fenway for Victorino (these would be Victorino's rest days), and have him spell Ellsbury, you're already talking about around 70 starts for Kalish even assuming perfect health. (This assumes that the interest in another outfielder is part of gauging the market on Ellsbury and isn't real unless he is moved.) If he picks up a 1B mitt, that's 80 games with everyone healthy and assuming Napoli never catches. He would also serve as a frequent late inning defensive replacement for Gomes. Add all that up, and that's a pretty significant chunk of playing time prior to accounting for injuries.

Agreed. Kalish is really the X factor in all this, and I love the idea of his adding 1B to his bag of tricks. As an OF/1B LHH supersub, spelling Gomes, Victorino and Napoli as needed, he could really add value to this club if he can turn the corner offensively to the extent of being an .800+ hitter vs. RHP. A big if, granted, but if he's really fully healthy, at age 25, it could be a situation to watch.

[TheGoldenGreek33]

Farrell was here before; it's more a matter of reporting history than launching a new investigation.

I know what you were saying. But, unless there was information already out there about a Farrell/Ellsbury disconnect, the odds of getting a non-PR answer from anyone are slim.

[Yaz4Ever]

What makes you think Farrell, or anyone in the org for that matter, would say anything negative about Ellsbury when they're shopping him? Even if they weren't shopping him, finding dirt on that situation is not happening.

edit: Then again, this is the Boston media we're talking about. I digress.

See, this is why Bobby V was so helpful </sarcasm>

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Maybe one of the local scribes covering the team could write about Farrell's relationship with Ellsbury -- has it been a good one, or negative to the extent of being another reason why Ellsbury will not be interested in re-signing here?

How much of a relationship, good or bad, do we expect the pitching coach and centerfielder to have realistically had, even over a four year period? My guess is nothing substantial enough to make a fuss over, one way or the other.

[MartyBarrettMVP]

Maybe one of the local scribes covering the team could write about Farrell's relationship with Ellsbury -- has it been a good one, or negative to the extent of being another reason why Ellsbury will not be interested in re-signing here?

I don't think the relationship has anything to do with it. Boras is going to be looking for the biggest payday he can find at the end of next year. If the Sox are adamant about holding the line on long-term deals then Ells is as good as gone. From what I am reading, it sounds like the Sox aren't interested in moving him unless they get blown away which, given his inconsistent health, his impending free agency, and Boras, won't happen. The only reason I can think of for not moving him is that their return would be too small. Otherwise, holding on to him and hoping he has a breakout season is all well and good but does nothing past 2013.

[OttoC]

... If the Sox are adamant about holding the line on long-term deals then Ells is as good as gone. From what I am reading, it sounds like the Sox aren't interested in moving him unless they get blown away which, given his inconsistent health, his impending free agency, and Boras, won't happen....

Not to pick on you but what inconsistent health is this? He has been involved in a couple of freakish accidents: The first when Beltre kneed him in the ribs even though he was called off the play and the second when the shortstop landed on top of him when Ellsbury was trying to break up a double play.

If they don't trade him this winter and he misses most of the first half of the 2013 season due to injury, then they will have lost out; otherwise, if he puts up numbers in the first half on a pace with his 2009 season, there will be suitors; if he puts up numbers similar to the pace of his 2011 season, there will be teams pounding on the door trying to acquire him (unsigned or not). Even if his numbers are an amalgam of his 2009 and 2011 seasons, he will be very tradable.

[E5 Yaz]

According to multiple sources, the Red Sox approached the Phillies about a Jacoby Ellsbury for Cliff Lee deal and were told that Lee was not available.

http://www.csnphilly...105&feedID=4382

[pjr]

Jen Royle‏@Jen_Royle
Phillies source said "No way" when asked if Red Sox inquired about Cliff Lee. "First time I heard that one. Never happened."

[Yo La Tengo]

From Edes most recent post:

"Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia confirmed the Red Sox offered center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury for Philadelphia Phillies pitcher Cliff Lee but were turned down."

[knucklecup]

From Edes most recent post:

"Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia confirmed the Red Sox offered center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury for Philadelphia Phillies pitcher Cliff Lee but were turned down."

The same report that Jen Royle dismisses.

[Rudy Pemberton]

There would be no logical reason for the Philies to want Ellsbury, but not Lee, next season. So it's pretty clear why they rejected. Although, I'm kind of shocked that the Sox would be willing to assume Lee's deal, especially since they never seemed interested in him when he was a FA. At this point, seems clear they'll move Ellsbury and Salty, but doesn't seem like they have much leverage.

[BosRedSox5]

One year contract players like Dickey and Choo are getting pretty good hauls... Why not Ells?

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

One year contract players like Dickey and Choo are getting pretty good hauls... Why not Ells?

Both have been consistently better, and more reliable players over the last three seasons, and in Dickey's case, his requirements for an extension (at least with the Mets) were insanely reasonable.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

One year contract players like Dickey and Choo are getting pretty good hauls... Why not Ells?

Fair question, but the answer lies in what kind of market there is for Ellsbury, not what Dickey and Choo got. Hard to compare a starting pitcher, coming off a Cy Young no less, to a centerfielder/lead-off hitter. The teams that "miss out" on Dickey aren't going to turn around and offer similar packages for Ellsbury.

The market for Choo is, I suppose, a closer comparison but Choo brings something to the table that Ellsbury doesn't...consistency. He has multiple seasons with an OPS+ over 130, while Ellsbury only topped that mark in 2011 unless you count his month's worth of play in 2007. The problem is that his deal was a multi-player, multi-team deal. While he's the most established/decorated MLB player involved in the deal, it's still hard to isolate Choo and say "THIS" is what he was worth therefore "this" is what the Sox can get for Ellsbury.

Which goes back to what kind of market is there for Ellsbury. How many teams are in need of a centerfielder/lead-off type player who are also in something of a GFIN position for which a contract year guy is a worthwhile endeavor? Texas is one. The White Sox might be a darkhorse? Any others? The Braves signed Upton. The Phillies traded for Revere. The Reds got Choo. The Nationals traded for Span. Seems the potential landing spots for a contract year CF are few and far between and of course, Michael Bourn is still on the market as an alternative.

It really isn't as simple as "they were traded, why not Ellsbury?"

[MikeM]

How many teams are in need of a centerfielder/lead-off type player who are also in something of a GFIN position for which a contract year guy is a worthwhile endeavor? Texas is one. The White Sox might be a darkhorse? Any others?

There is another team out there that's spending a lot of money, trying to win more games in 2013, and who most certainly could use centerfielder/lead-off type player. Apparently hoping that in the potential process of having some breaks go their way, they maybe end up snagging a new system WC birth. Which would be a huge win for them as an organization after spending the last half decade in downward spiral, regardless of any absolute "100 win team on paper or bust" definition some choose to present as the only GFIN scenario option on the table there.

Those guys don't even have to make a trade to get Jacoby Ellsbury

A potential trade of Ellsbury does not end with the drooling over whatever selling low/potential prospect ceiling you pull out of it. Somebody is going to need to hit leadoff for this team next season.

[Drek717]

Somebody is going to need to hit leadoff for this team next season.

I'm assuming most think Victorino is the man for that job.

Regardless, the price Boston places on Ellsbury is obviously quite high. Short of an unforeseen disaster in 2013 Ellsbury is exactly the kind of guy you give a qualifying offer to, so the bidding is effectively set at the value of two picks in the top 75 or so at a minimum. Given the realignment of FA compensation, with protected picks only starting at 10 or lower and picks having draft pool dollars attached, those picks are only going to be more valuable going forward.

One year contract players like Dickey and Choo are getting pretty good hauls... Why not Ells?

Choo got a pretty good haul? Lets look at what that deal actually was.

Cleveland sent Choo + replacement level MI (Donald) + $3.5M, in return Cincy sent them Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious.

That is effectively what Cleveland got for Choo, everything beyond that was them dealing with Airzona for Gregorious and other pieces. Donald is a replacement level guy with basically zero value, so we can pretty much ignore his existence in the baseball universe.

Stubbs has 15-20 home run power and great wheels to go along with good defense. Sounds promising, until you realize that he 1. can't put bat on ball at even a 1/4 clip and 2. is an annual contender for the strikeout title.

Didi Gregorious netted them a nice overpay from SS desperate Arizona, but when you consider that Gregorious isn't a top 100 prospect by most anyone's evaluations, that Baseball America listed him as the 3rd best SS within just the Reds' farm system, and that he's only had one partial season in High A where his OPS was better than the low .700's you see that the big turning point in this deal for Cleveland was Arizona being a patsy, not the Red giving good compensation.

If the Sox traded Ellsbury for a late 20's, arb eligible guy with as many holes in his game as Stubbs and a B- prospect like Gregorious people here would want Cherrington's head on a pike. A season of Ells + comp picks is worth FAR more to the Sox than that kind of return. They can buy a Stubbs type any given year on the FA market and prospects like Gregorious are available from GFIN teams every deadline for solid relievers and good fit role players.

[RedOctober3829]

You can't just ignore that they ended up with Trevor Bauer out of that deal. It doesnt matter if you think AZ just gave him away or not. If the Sox netted a package that centers around a starter with the potential of Bauer, I'd be very happy.

[bosockboy]

Yep Bauer was the 9th rated prospect heading into 2012...clearly he was the point of the trade for Cleveland. Not even mentioning him is crazy. One year of Choo for Bauer is a great haul....anything else is pure gravy.

[OCD SS]

You can't just ignore that they ended up with Trevor Bauer out of that deal. It doesnt matter if you think AZ just gave him away or not. If the Sox netted a package that centers around a starter with the potential of Bauer, I'd be very happy.

But the issue is that you can actually name all of the SP prospects who have the potential of Bauer. Once you start running down the list to see if those teams either have need for Ellsbury, you can see if there are any deals that make sense. I doubt that there are, and I think you can probably turn around and look at Towers' warped valuations as the central reason that deal was made.

[RedOctober3829]

But the issue is that you can actually name all of the SP prospects who have the potential of Bauer. Once you start running down the list to see if those teams either have need for Ellsbury, you can see if there are any deals that make sense. I doubt that there are, and I think you can probably turn around and look at Towers' warped valuations as the central reason that deal was made.

The question is this: do they even trade Choo if they don't get a player back such as Bauer? I agree with you that Towers misvalued him, but if you're Cleveland you don't worry about that. I doubt you get a package like that for Ellsbury which is why he stays.