280 replies to this topic

[SoxScout]

A friend of the woman killed today by Chiefs linebacker Jovan Belcher said the couple argued in the early morning hours after the woman was out late attending Friday’s Trey Songz concert at The Midland.
The friend, who asked not to be identified, said Belcher confronted his girlfriend when she returned home about 1 a.m.
The couple had dated about three years and argued frequently, the friend said, but she wasn’t aware of any prior physical abuse.

http://www.kansas.co...er-suicide.html

[drleather2001]

Only reason I can think that he might go the team facility at arrowhead is that's basically his home, his space where things are normal and makes sense. Pro football players have been at the football field for the majority of their lives, and often have been shielded from mistakes and messy reality from outside because of what they do on the field. He might have been going to a place that had always been a place of safety.

But at the end of the day I'm making a weak attempt to rationalize an irrational act that's the definition of senseless tragedy.

I think:

He got into an argument with his GF, flipped out, and shot her. He knew that the mother witnessed it, and that he had just made a terrible mistake. But he didn't know what to do yet, probably because he couldn't wrap his head around the magnitude of his own monstrousness. So he got into the car and went to work, because, really, where else can he go? He arrives, now realizing how awful his actions were, and he's overwhelmed with guilt and confusion and fully realizing he's going to go to jail, forever. So he takes the easy way out.

Or maybe he went because coaches had been the be-all authority his entire adult life, and he subconsciously hoped they could fix things.

Sad.

[Reverend]

I don't know where there would be a punchbowl in this whole thing.

Would bringing a punch bowl to this be any less appropriate than what King is doing?

This is terrible. I think we all know what the right decision is here in regards to the game tomorrow, but does anyone here expect the league to make the right one? I really hope that potential monetary loss doesn't win over a civil decision. The Chiefs could forfeit, right? Anyone see that as a viable option if the league wants them to play?

I go back and forth on this. Playing is ghastly, but sitting at home on Sunday and being accutely aware they were sitting at home would be hellish for the everyone in the organization.

Sometimes there is no good option. It might be better for them to be together in some kind of purposive activity.

[JBill]

I can see the players wanting to play, but man, I can't see Romeo being ready to or wanting to coach after what he witnessed.

Edited by JBill, 01 December 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[MakMan44]

I go back and forth on this. Playing is ghastly, but sitting at home on Sunday and being accutely aware they were sitting at home would be hellish for the everyone in the organization.

Sometimes there is no good option. It might be better for them to be together in some kind of purposive activity.

I think playing would be the better option for the players. It will help distance them, mentally, from everything that happened the day before.

EDIT: In reference to the above comment, if that was me, I don't think I would ever be ready to return to coaching.

Edited by MakMan44, 01 December 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[pdaj]

Man, what an awful, gut-wrenching story. The families, Chief players, and coaching staff must be beside themselves. I remember when first learning that my cousin was killed by her husband (who then took his own life) -- it was surreal. I can't even fathom witnessing any part of either death.

My guess is that Belcher committed the act, wigged out, and then drove to his "safe zone" to confess/seek help. It seems like he may have been close to both Crennel and Pioli? Soon after, maybe it clicked in his head that he couldn't fix or un-do what was done? I'm sure some details regardining the dialogue prior to his suicide will come out eventually.

Sad stuff.

[pdaj]

I think:

He got into an argument with his GF, flipped out, and shot her. He knew that the mother witnessed it, and that he had just made a terrible mistake. But he didn't know what to do yet, probably because he couldn't wrap his head around the magnitude of his own monstrousness. So he got into the car and went to work, because, really, where else can he go? He arrives, now realizing how awful his actions were, and he's overwhelmed with guilt and confusion and fully realizing he's going to go to jail, forever. So he takes the easy way out.

Or maybe he went because coaches had been the be-all authority his entire adult life, and he subconsciously hoped they could fix things.

Sad.

Much better psych. breakdown than what I provided. I'll put away my DeVry PhD now.

[Al Zarilla]

Would bringing a punch bowl to this be any less appropriate than what King is doing?

No, I guess not.

[Shelterdog]

I can see the players wanting to play, but man, I can't see Romeo being ready to or wanting to coach after what he witnessed.

Do you mean today's tragedy or the 2012 Chiefs' season? In either case, there's not enough liquor and therapy in the world to unsee what he has seen.

[BigSoxFan]

Do you mean today's tragedy or the 2012 Chiefs' season? In either case, there's not enough liquor and therapy in the world to unsee what he has seen.

No kidding. Just seeing the video of that high speed chase that ended up in a suicide was brutal enough. I can't possibly imagine the trauma that results in seeing something like this up close in person with someone that you know and care about.

[abty]

The coach and G.M are lucky to be alive. As awful as this is, and it is impossible to put into words, usually men who snap like this are certainly a risk to take out others. It's certainly not something I recall seeing before, where one performs this act and spares others, let alone thanks them.

How do you even begin to react to that, let alone recover. And for the mom...it's just awful. Hopefully that kid has a loving extended family and can be looked out for for life. Just awful. RIP

[notfar]

Watching the R. Budd Dwyer video makes my mind spin out a little bit and that is a grainy video of someone I don't even know. I can't fathom that Crennel and Pioli could possibly be in any shape to coach a football game tomorrow or even next week.

[bankshot1]

IMO The only right thing to do, as in decency, is to postpone the game.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

IMO The only right thing to do, as in decency, is to postpone the game.

Unless the Chiefs, as a group, want to play the game as scheduled. I don't think anyone, particularly the commissioner, should be discussing postponing or canceling the game until they've made up their mind first. If they want to play, the game must go on.

[LondonSox]

I agree that it should be the chiefs call. Sometimes people want to purge their emotion in physical activity and passion. Of course it may be completely inappropriate for the NFL to allow people in this level of emotional stress to play a dangerous game. It's not hard to see a moment of silence for wife and player prior to kick off and then someone getting seriously hurt in the opening moments of the game.
I know I would put all my emotion into the first big physical hit and that's when bad things happen to both sides.

What clearly shouldn't happen is the game if the chiefs say no. If they say yes I'm less clear, I can see a case either way.
The last thing anyone needs is injuries in the game on top of this tradegy.

It's also a fucking disgrace how people react to this stuff. We have no idea what happened or why, but the first thought of the normal even semi adjusted human being is to be sad and to hope and or pray for the best for the baby and the mother who just watched her daughter die and lost her son too. It speaks ill of all of modern society that so few did and im afraid to look at the espn comments. I regard this board as a high point in online dialogue and I want to punch several people in the crotch for their reaction and comments.

I really do think that if this stuff continue then the NFL may be on borrowed time. We don't know this in concussion related but the first assumption is it is or might be. How do parents allow their children to do this is they believe this kind of thing could be a result. It's interesting to me that rugby which is a violent and brutal sport (though less speed as its not stop start) has little to no concussion despite no helmets. There is clearly something about the speed intensity and training flawed with football. Eg putting your hat on the ball. You are thought to tackle in rugby where you place your head, and avoid impact with your head, in football that needs to change. A helmet doesn't give you magical protection, you should play like you are not wearing a helmet and benefit from protection for accidents. Not use the helmet as a weapon.

[Wings]

I once had an internship at a jail. I was called in to interview a guy who had, the day or two before, shot and killed his ex-wife. From the reports of the first arriving police on the scene the guy was just sitting there. Even trying to talk to the guy he was in such shock that he could barely talk. He had ruined his life, his 2 young kids lives, and of course had committed murder (allegedly, but he was later convicted). Anyway, not to play arm chair psychologist, but it is scary what people can do in fits of rage and with difficult mental health and with brain chemicals being off. Seems like he snapped, then couldn't believe what he had done like others had suggested, and then went to the facility where there were authority figures and realized there was no way to really fix this and then took his own life.

[bankshot1]

I'm not sure decency is dependent upon what the Chef players want to do.

This is the time to let mourner's mourn and pay respect to the victims.

IMO the game can wait.

Edited by bankshot1, 01 December 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[Greg29fan]

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
Chiefs announced Sunday's game will be played as scheduled.

[MN Dirt Dog]

What an awful, awful situation, and how tragic for the woman and Belcher's families, and the Chiefs Organization as a whole.

Take away from it that it's a pro football player, and these incidents happen all the time, sadly. I have a friend who is in a dispute with her ex-husband, and she keeps a bat next to her bed with the situation escalating. He's been a good father to their kids and you wouldn't think he's "the type," but situations involving domestic violence have a way of escalating fast and irrationally. It's scary to think about.....and then imagine living in that kind of chaos.

Have no idea if that applies to Belcher and his gf, but incidents like these tend to hit home for people. It does for me.

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

Take away from it that it's a pro football player, and these incidents happen all the time, sadly.

True. This wasn't even the first murder-suicide for the Chiefs this year. A manager in their Stadium Operations Dept killed his wife and himself a few months ago.

[BigSoxFan]

I work with a woman who's married to a complete loser - treats her poorly, in and out of crappy jobs, etc. She was unhappy in their marriage and started fooling around with another guy (our office talks). Anyways, her husband found out and they were trying to go through counseling. She wasn't interested in this and still continued to see the other guy. Disgusted, the husband moved out. One night, the husband shows up at her house with a baseball bat and beats the living crap out of her. He's now in jail. I'm wondering if there's a similar dynamic at play here. Desperate men who feel like they have nothing to lose can be capable of horrifying stuff.

[edoug]

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
Chiefs announced Sunday's game will be played as scheduled.

The Show must go on, No matter how traumatized everybody involved is. I get playing the game as some sort of diversion but I can't comprehend how under these circumstances that this will do anyone any good.

[absintheofmalaise]

It sounds like the Chiefs did have a say in whether the game would be played or not.




Albert Breer@AlbertBreer
Not only did the Chiefs have their say in the decision to play tomorrow, but Roger Goodell consulted with NFLPA chief DeMaurice Smith on it.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

I'm wondering if there's a similar dynamic at play here. Desperate men who feel like they have nothing to lose can be capable of horrifying stuff.

This kid had a lot to lose. He was an undrafted free agent that worked his way up to be a starting LB in the NFL. He had a newborn daughter, a family a home, was making more money thn he could have ever dreamed of as a kid at Maine. This kid clearly had mental illness with the possibility of steroid rage and maybe even concussion issues to boot. While your friend isn't "understandable" I'd imagine their we're at least a few people tht knew her and her man that weren't completely shocked it happened. Doesn't seem to be the case here.

[Zomp]

Its a weird situation. Its not like the guy was killed under tragic but honorable circumstances where the team could honor him. He killed someone.

The comparison may not be apt but I can't help but think of the wrestler Chris Benot. He killed his family then himself. My memory is fuzzy of the specifics but I don't think the WWF new the whole story when they went ahead with a memorial show for him. If they did, they likely wouldn't have.

The Chiefs are in a tough spot, and not with just to play tomorrow's game.

[absintheofmalaise]

This kid had a lot to lose. He was an undrafted free agent that worked his way up to be a starting LB in the NFL. He had a newborn daughter, a family a home, was making more money thn he could have ever dreamed of as a kid at Maine. This kid clearly had mental illness with the possibility of steroid rage and maybe even concussion issues to boot. While your friend isn't "understandable" I'd imagine their we're at least a few people tht knew her and her man that weren't completely shocked it happened. Doesn't seem to be the case here.

Did the concussions cause his insanity or was that a product of his steroid use?

[collings94]

Its a weird situation. Its not like the guy was killed under tragic but honorable circumstances where the team could honor him. He killed someone.

The comparison may not be apt but I can't help but think of the wrestler Chris Benot. He killed his family then himself. My memory is fuzzy of the specifics but I don't think the WWF new the whole story when they went ahead with a memorial show for him. If they did, they likely wouldn't have.

The Chiefs are in a tough spot, and not with just to play tomorrow's game.

WWE did not hold a memorial show for Benoit, he has been completely been erased from all of their records and is never mentioned in their product today. They have completely distanced themselves from Benoit and his whole situation. They had a memorial show for Eddie Guerrero, who died of a heart attack a year before Benoit died, maybe that is what you are thinking of.

I talked to former WWE wrestler and Harvard alum Chris Nowinski, who is the main expert on sports related concussions and personally studied Benoit's brain. He told me that it was a combination of steroid use, as well as his multiple concussions that led to his actions. By all accounts, Benoit was a great guy and a family man, but the damage he had done to his body and his brain just caused him to snap.

[scottyno]

WWE did not hold a memorial show for Benoit, he has been completely been erased from all of their records and is never mentioned in their product today. They have completely distanced themselves from Benoit and his whole situation. They had a memorial show for Eddie Guerrero, who died of a heart attack a year before Benoit died, maybe that is what you are thinking of.

I talked to former WWE wrestler and Harvard alum Chris Nowinski, who is the main expert on sports related concussions and personally studied Benoit's brain. He told me that it was a combination of steroid use, as well as his multiple concussions that led to his actions. By all accounts, Benoit was a great guy and a family man, but the damage he had done to his body and his brain just caused him to snap.

They had a tribute show to benoit that night (he was found monday afternoon), it was 3 hours of wrestlers talking about him and some of his best matches. At the time all they knew was he was found dead, the fact that it was a murder suicide was discovered sometime in the middle of the tribute show, though I don't think it was known to the public yet. They pulled the tribute show for the west coast version of raw and aired the last weeks raw again instead.

[kenneycb]

Its a weird situation. Its not like the guy was killed under tragic but honorable circumstances where the team could honor him. He killed someone.

The comparison may not be apt but I can't help but think of the wrestler Chris Benot. He killed his family then himself. My memory is fuzzy of the specifics but I don't think the WWF new the whole story when they went ahead with a memorial show for him. If they did, they likely wouldn't have.

The Chiefs are in a tough spot, and not with just to play tomorrow's game.

They originally did a memorial show and then changed it for the west coast airing if Raw as the real details came out.

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

The Show must go on, No matter how traumatized everybody involved is. I get playing the game as some sort of diversion but I can't comprehend how under these circumstances that this will do anyone any good.

Jesus, I get it. The big bad NFL only wants to make money.

Not to be a complete asshole, but there is still a possibility that the Chiefs can play and Crennel, Pioli, whoever else can sit this one out. Lets not keep talking about awful the NFL is.

Edited by Kenny F'ing Powers, 01 December 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[McBride11]

I'm sure the Chiefs want to play to not only distract them, but give them an outlet for their emotions and give them some semblance of normalcy.

The gate, concessions proceeds, or TV take should be donated to a trust fund of some type for the baby.

[shawnrbu]

By all accounts, Benoit was a great guy and a family man, but the damage he had done to his body and his brain just caused him to snap.

Untrue. Ask Kevin Sullivan if Benoit was a great guy. Benoit's wife Nancy filed for divorce in 2003 and asked for protection from domestic abuse due to his temper. Mark Madden also noted that Benoit was one of the biggest drug abusers on the WCW roster during the late 90's.

[abty]

"The gate, concessions proceeds, or TV take should be donated to a trust fund of some type for the baby."

This.

[SWHB]

Jesus, I get it. The big bad NFL only wants to make money.

Not to be a complete asshole, but there is still a possibility that the Chiefs can play and Crennel, Pioli, whoever else can sit this one out. Lets not keep talking about awful the NFL is.

And who's to say Romeo doesn't want to coach? I'm sure he's going to be traumatized for some time, and I obviously can't possibly put myself in his shoes, but it seems like sitting at home and stewing might not be a real attractive alternative to coaching and being around his players.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Did the concussions cause his insanity or was that a product of his steroid use?

Snark all you like but clearly there is mental instability at play when someone does this kind of thing. As I said possible, would you be mind blown to find out that a player that came out of Maine that made it to starting in the nfl might have used steroids to get there, in part? And I'd be pretty impressed to meet any person that played LB for probably 15 years that didn't have concussions, recognized/diagnosed or not, in their history. I'm neither accusing him of steroid use nor blaming this on concussions - I'm simply saying that adding one possible accelerant with one probable one to a clearly unstable mental condition is playing with fire.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do here other than be a douche. If you think that multiple media members won't link this, in part at least, to these possibly contributing factors, then I don't know what to tell you.

[reggiecleveland]

I would like to suggest we not speculate about the details of why and how and what happened. We know all, more than we need to know.

[Al Zarilla]

Wrong thread.

Edited by Al Zarilla, 01 December 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

And who's to say Romeo doesn't want to coach? I'm sure he's going to be traumatized for some time, and I obviously can't possibly put myself in his shoes, but it seems like sitting at home and stewing might not be a real attractive alternative to coaching and being around his players.

Did I say that he should be forced to sit? I said that the Chiefs can play and whoever wants to take some personal time most likely can.

[absintheofmalaise]

Snark all you like but clearly there is mental instability at play when someone does this kind of thing. As I said possible, would you be mind blown to find out that a player that came out of Maine that made it to starting in the nfl might have used steroids to get there, in part? And I'd be pretty impressed to meet any person that played LB for probably 15 years that didn't have concussions, recognized/diagnosed or not, in their history. I'm neither accusing him of steroid use nor blaming this on concussions - I'm simply saying that adding one possible accelerant with one probable one to a clearly unstable mental condition is playing with fire.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do here other than be a douche. If you think that multiple media members won't link this, in part at least, to these possibly contributing factors, then I don't know what to tell you.

I was trying to make the point that unless you actually know what was going on from either first hand knowledge or from witnesses or reports, then you shouldn't assign blame to those factors. Is that direct enough for you?

[mpjc]

Albert Breer@AlbertBreer
Not only did the Chiefs have their say in the decision to play tomorrow, but Roger Goodell consulted with NFLPA chief DeMaurice Smith on it.

I wonder if the family of the girlfriend had her say.

[Reverend]

Snark all you like but clearly there is mental instability at play when someone does this kind of thing. As I said possible, would you be mind blown to find out that a player that came out of Maine that made it to starting in the nfl might have used steroids to get there, in part? And I'd be pretty impressed to meet any person that played LB for probably 15 years that didn't have concussions, recognized/diagnosed or not, in their history. I'm neither accusing him of steroid use nor blaming this on concussions - I'm simply saying that adding one possible accelerant with one probable one to a clearly unstable mental condition is playing with fire.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do here other than be a douche. If you think that multiple media members won't link this, in part at least, to these possibly contributing factors, then I don't know what to tell you.

You should be aware that the mental health establishment hates this line of reasoning as it marginalizes people who have real mental illness by attributing all bad behavior to mental illness. ReggieCleveland is right--we don't know the facts. Maybe this guy had some kind of mental instability. But we don't know that. Attributing this to mental instability based on the reasoning that he must be mentally unstable because only a mentally unstable person would do such a thing is a tautology and a potentially pernicious one, as per above, in how it marginalizes mental illness by collapsing all bad behavior we don't understand into the fold.

And this is what abs was trying to tell you. Even if I didn't care about this issue (which I do), I'd suggest that you take his hint that you don't actually know what you are talking about and are, I will assume, unintentionally spewing some problematic and potentially injurious shit and shut it down.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I wonder if the family of the girlfriend had her say.

And that would be relevant why? I don't mean to be insensitive to her family and what they're going through, but how is this game going to impact them at all? I mean, if Belcher worked in a factory, would the company be expected to consult her family as to whether or not to run their machines the day after? Or would it only matter to them how their employees felt about it?

[collings94]

Untrue. Ask Kevin Sullivan if Benoit was a great guy. Benoit's wife Nancy filed for divorce in 2003 and asked for protection from domestic abuse due to his temper. Mark Madden also noted that Benoit was one of the biggest drug abusers on the WCW roster during the late 90's.

Shut up man, you tried to support that claim by quoting two of the biggest douches in wrestling history. I have heard great things about Benoit, from promoters, to guys that knew him for a long time, like Dean Malenko, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Mick Foley and Rey Mysterio.

[Shelterdog]

Could the wrestling guys take this elsewhere?

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

Shut up man, you tried to support that claim by quoting two of the biggest douches in wrestling history. I have heard great things about Benoit, from promoters, to guys that knew him for a long time, like Dean Malenko, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Mick Foley and Rey Mysterio.

I think you need to step away from the computer for a while. Just stage a cage match with your rasslin' action figures for the next couple hours and chill out.

[Drocca]

It doesn't make sense to me why the Chiefs wouldn't play tomorrow. I mean, most of their players didn't shoot their girlfriend and then themselves today. If they need to pick up an LB to fill the spot and its too late per the rules and that's why they can't play, then I think Goodell should let them pick one up this one time.

[Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat]

...a tautology and a potentially pernicious one...

"Potentially pernicious tautology" is going to be my next username

[E5 Yaz]

"Potentially pernicious tautology" is going to be my next username

It's no surprise you wear a helmet all the time

[quint]

It doesn't make sense to me why the Chiefs wouldn't play tomorrow. I mean, most of their players didn't shoot their girlfriend and then themselves today. If they need to pick up an LB to fill the spot and its too late per the rules and that's why they can't play, then I think Goodell should let them pick one up this one time.

Hmmm.. you didn't include a douchey personal take on the tragedy, or any sort of uneducated conclusion depicting what could have been affecting the player.

We're sorry but your post is disqualified from any future comeuppance.

[Judge Mental13]

Uhhhh......





I feel bad for the poor schmuck offensive lineman who gets stuck with #60