105 replies to this topic

[rodderick]

I'm not concerned about injury (and certainly not about "running up the score"), but I would think the Pats would feel more comfortable if Mallett had a little more game experience. He's thrown 3 passes in his NFL career. If Brady gets dinged up and needs to sit out a couple plays to get his ankle taped or something, what is Mallett going to do? Pretty much just hand off a couple times, right? What if Brady gets a concussion and can't return?

I guess the counter-argument is that Brady and the first team have struggled in closing out games at times, so giving the varsity squad reps in "grind out the clock" scenarios is good situational practice to prepare them for doing the same in one- or two- score games.

Yeah, I really dislike that counter-argument though. How does staying on the field at the end of a blowout going to help you prepare for late-and-close situations? The opponent isn't playing hard, the pressure is non-existent, I mean other than the amount of time left on the clock, what are the similarities between the two situations?

[Super Nomario]

Yeah, I really dislike that counter-argument though. How does staying on the field at the end of a blowout going to help you prepare for late-and-close situations? The opponent isn't playing hard, the pressure is non-existent, I mean other than the amount of time left on the clock, what are the similarities between the two situations?

Do you actually think the opponent isn't playing hard? I mean, Rex probably isn't running his most clever blitzes, but there are guys on the field hitting each other in the mouth every play. If the Jets weren't trying, that's really damning for the Patriots' rushing attack, which registered 13 yards on 6 rushes on that second-to-last drive.

[rodderick]

Do you actually think the opponent isn't playing hard? I mean, Rex probably isn't running his most clever blitzes, but there are guys on the field hitting each other in the mouth every play. If the Jets weren't trying, that's really damning for the Patriots' rushing attack, which registered 13 yards on 6 rushes on that second-to-last drive.

Are you asking me if I believe they are playing as hard and focused losing by 30 than they would be losing by 3? No, I don't.

[Super Nomario]

Are you asking me if I believe they are playing as hard and focused losing by 30 than they would be losing by 3? No, I don't.

Is it better preparation than running those scenarios against the Patriots scout team in practice on a given Wednesday? As far as situational practice, that's the relevant comparison. Keep in mind, under the new CBA there are only a limited number of full-pads practices.

[MentalDisabldLst]

From my perspective, the issue has nothing to do with "running up the score" and the opportunists' selective reaction to the Patriots. Whether it's because Belichick is perceived as a media meany, SypGate or some other supposed wrong, the fact is that the media covers the Patriots, and Bill in particular, differently than other teams and has for a while. Hell, I almost like that the Pats are disliked. No one much cared about them until Parcells showed up and they became consistently relevant, and I'll take this current status over benign neglect all day long. Plus, it's kind of fun rooting for the villain.

You know, I feel like that's right but missing a little something. The analogy that comes to my mind is, rooting for the Patriots given their coverage is almost like rooting for Professor Snape from the Harry Potter world. WE know he's actually awesome and a mastermind who is several moves ahead of everyone else, but nobody else watching knows that (well, until the end). Everyone else thinks we're a villain, but if anyone gave the sour-pussed Belichick a chance, they'd realize what he was worth. So it's almost like we're sharing a secret: these idiots aren't merely wrong, they are tragically wrong - fully 180 degrees out of whack and missing an opportunity to appreciate an incredible character in his prime.

[MentalDisabldLst]

I don't know why anyone reads TMQ.

All the other football writers suck worse. I'd rather read 2000 words from Easterbrook (pared down from 5000, 60% of which are talking about random BS), even if 100 of them are retardedly hating Belichick, than read 500 words on bleacherreport or ESPN or the Glob that do nothing but make me dumber.

[lexrageorge]

I'll give TMQ credit for this: after the infamous "4th-and-2", all the local sportswriters were all over Belichick, accusing him of "hubris" and "arrogance". TMQ was one of the few that actually pointed out the reams and reams of statistical evidence that going for it in that situation was the right thing to do.

Otherwise, back to our regular programming....

[CaptainLaddie]

All the other football writers suck worse. I'd rather read 2000 words from Easterbrook (pared down from 5000, 60% of which are talking about random BS), even if 100 of them are retardedly hating Belichick, than read 500 words on bleacherreport or ESPN or the Glob that do nothing but make me dumber.

If you'll pare that 60% and send it to me, that'd be awesome.

He's a blowhard. I can name 15 football scribes if rather read before him.

[MentalDisabldLst]

If you'll pare that 60% and send it to me, that'd be awesome.

C'mon, it's easy. I do it by just looking at the headline of each of his sections and skipping the ones that don't have to do with football - unless he's commenting on a topic of particular interest to me. Years ago, I'd read every word of everything. Even recently, I'd at least skim the most boring stuff, even the "hollywood movie defies the laws of science!" rants. Now, if a section doesn't have to do with football, I skip it 95% of the time. His articles take 10 minutes to read instead of 30.

He's a blowhard. I can name 15 football scribes if rather read before him.

I would be very sincerely interested to see such a list, because I browse all the "usual" sites and see almost nobody worth reading who writes about football for a living. There is no Posnanski out there. There's not even a Bob Ryan (and Bob Ryan isn't Bob Ryan when it comes to football). If you know of people (besides, let's say, Aaron Schatz) who write awesome columns on the NFL that don't make you roll your eyes more than once per column, for the love of god start a thread on "Good NFL Writers" or something because it's like a desert here. It's a desert, and Easterbrook gives us an oasis, but from time to time, he pisses in it. And I mean, we'll drink cause, after all, we're in the fucking desert, but still, if there were piss-free oases out here, that'd be pretty cool...

[Lose Remerswaal]

On the other hand, most "Big Time College Basketball Coaches" (and quite a few football coaches) do leave the starters in until the end of the game. Even lesser coaches, like Al Skinner used to not empty the bench when they were down 20 points (or even occasionally up 20 points) with 2 minutes to go.

[BernieRicoBoomer]

Are you asking me if I believe they are playing as hard and focused losing by 30 than they would be losing by 3? No, I don't.

Ask Edelman how he feels about that one.

[Dogman2]

Ask Edelman how he feels about that one.

Aside from the score, there was still 24 minutes left in the game. Edelman would probably answer, "lots of time left at that point."

[tims4wins]

Let's not forget that "film don't lie". Guys will keep playing hard because they are playing for their livelihood. If you lay down, it'll show up on film.

[CaptainLaddie]

C'mon, it's easy. I do it by just looking at the headline of each of his sections and skipping the ones that don't have to do with football - unless he's commenting on a topic of particular interest to me. Years ago, I'd read every word of everything. Even recently, I'd at least skim the most boring stuff, even the "hollywood movie defies the laws of science!" rants. Now, if a section doesn't have to do with football, I skip it 95% of the time. His articles take 10 minutes to read instead of 30.



I would be very sincerely interested to see such a list, because I browse all the "usual" sites and see almost nobody worth reading who writes about football for a living. There is no Posnanski out there. There's not even a Bob Ryan (and Bob Ryan isn't Bob Ryan when it comes to football). If you know of people (besides, let's say, Aaron Schatz) who write awesome columns on the NFL that don't make you roll your eyes more than once per column, for the love of god start a thread on "Good NFL Writers" or something because it's like a desert here. It's a desert, and Easterbrook gives us an oasis, but from time to time, he pisses in it. And I mean, we'll drink cause, after all, we're in the fucking desert, but still, if there were piss-free oases out here, that'd be pretty cool...

Just a few off the top of my head, while I am out:
Schatz
Arthur (when he does football)
Bill Barnwell
Doug Farrar
Andy Benoit
Greg Bedard
Bob Glauber
Kevin Seifert
Chris Mortensen
Jaworski

[epraz]

Mike Tanier

[Reverend]

You know, I feel like that's right but missing a little something. The analogy that comes to my mind is, rooting for the Patriots given their coverage is almost like rooting for Professor Snape from the Harry Potter world. WE know he's actually awesome and a mastermind who is several moves ahead of everyone else, but nobody else watching knows that (well, until the end). Everyone else thinks we're a villain, but if anyone gave the sour-pussed Belichick a chance, they'd realize what he was worth. So it's almost like we're sharing a secret: these idiots aren't merely wrong, they are tragically wrong - fully 180 degrees out of whack and missing an opportunity to appreciate an incredible character in his prime.

Two things:
Thing one: Spoiler that shit.
Thing two: I can't believe how well your analogy works. Seriously... that was kind of awesome.

I'll give TMQ credit for this: after the infamous "4th-and-2", all the local sportswriters were all over Belichick, accusing him of "hubris" and "arrogance". TMQ was one of the few that actually pointed out the reams and reams of statistical evidence that going for it in that situation was the right thing to do.

Exactly right--and that the team had previously benefited from making the same decision and it was basically a policy rule for him, which everyone else in the media world somehow forgot back when he was the genius for knowing that the numbers added up.

[Super Nomario]

Mike Tanier

Am I missing something with him? Every article I read is chock-full of jokes at the expense of any football insight or even discussion, and they ain't even funny. Here's a sample from his latest power rankings (http://www.sportsone...ticle/40430220/):

1. 49ers (8-2-1): A comprehensive breakdown of the 49ers-Saints game tape revealed the following critical scouting information: Alex Smith frowned on the sideline six times, grimaced four times, clapped five times, smiled three times and got the faraway “this is not happening” look a league-record 24 times (shattering Drew Bledsoe’s mark in 2001). Also, the 49ers play outstanding defense or something.
2. Patriots (8-3): They’re not running up the score. They are making sure Daniel Fells gets plenty of reps in place of Rob Gronkowski on the extra-point team.
3. Giants (7-4): Nutritious, filling, unflavored oatmeal for the football fan’s soul.

I'm not sure what the Giants comment means. Pats run up the score! Alex Smith is the backup now! This is really superficial stuff, and the whole column is like this. There are like four sentences of actual football analysis in 3,500 words.

[BrazilianSoxFan]

I really miss Dr. Z.

[Mystic Merlin]

What can you really say in like 25 words? Power rankings are kind of dumb, IMO, if harmless, so I'm fine with commentary reflecting that.

[Super Nomario]

What can you really say in like 25 words? Power rankings are kind of dumb, IMO, if harmless, so I'm fine with commentary reflecting that.

If it was just the monthly power rankings, fine. But his weekly game preview column is just as bad if not worse. He occasionally does write a column with merit, but half or more of his columns are 80%+ jokes.

[tims4wins]

Definitely agree on Barnwell - I read him every day. I like that he doesn't try to tackle the entire league in each column, instead trying to focus on a couple of teams / games and going more in-depth, usually looking at things in an unconventional way.

[DrewDawg]

I'm not sure what the Giants comment means.

Boring, unexciting, but does what it's supposed to.

At least this week.

Edited by DrewDawg, 29 November 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[cgori]

I really miss Dr. Z.

Seconded, thirded and fourthed.

[JerBear]

Apparently you also can't just keep running the ball when you're winning by 7 either...

http://boston.cbsloc...-disrespectful/

[CaptainLaddie]

What a bunch of crybabies. It's disrespectful? How about JUST STOP THEM.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

Apparently you also can't just keep running the ball when you're winning by 7 either...

http://boston.cbsloc...-disrespectful/

“It really (ticked) me off. It was disrespectful to us to run the same play over and over and be successful,” defensive tackle Tony McDaniel told the Palm Beach Post’s Brian Biggane. “Normally when somebody’s driving down the field you just think, ‘Well, they just had a good run there,’ but you run the same play over and over, as a competitor that (ticks) me off.”

I had to doublecheck after that quote to make sure I wasn't reading an Onion article.

[Ed Hillel]

Well, that's certainly a new one. It's disrespectful to competition to create a winning strategy.

[Shelterdog]

Well, that's certainly a new one. It's disrespectful to competition to create a winning strategy.

This is even funnier than the "disrespect" card Rex talked the Jets into before the playoff loss that the Patriots disrespected other teams by saying positive things that the Pats' players didn't actually believe.

[JerBear]

I had to doublecheck after that quote to make sure I wasn't reading an Onion article.

I did too.

[Mystic Merlin]

So, everything the Patriots do in wins is disrespectful to someone.

Here's some disrespect for you: fuck off.

[Super Nomario]

I had to doublecheck after that quote to make sure I wasn't reading an Onion article.

It is "disrespectful," in a sense that if the Patriots respected the defensive players on that side of their field or Miami's coaching staff to make adjustments, they wouldn't do it. It does show a lack of respect. And the Dolphins' failure to stop it shows that they did not earn any respect. So "disrespectful" is a fair characterization, but "unsportsmanlike" wouldn't be.

In Belichick's breakdown this week, one of the plays he breaks down is how after running that same play a bunch, they switched it up and ran weak side and got 11 yards.

[Mystic Merlin]

Good distinction, though I'd say that when people criticize the Pats for being "disrespectful", they're conflating it with "unsportsmanlike." It's a bizarre ethical judgment.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Well, one reason they ran the play so often in that drive is that it was the 4th quarter and the Pats had gotten Miami's D tired.

As always, you want the Pats to stop running it? Stop it. Do something about it. Or STFU.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Next line in that Palm Beach Post article leads me to think any whining or controversy here is almost entirely a media concoction:

“It is disrespectful,” tackle Randy Starks agreed, “but you’ve got to stop it. We never stopped it, so I’d keep running the same play, too.”

Seems like a reasonable way to look at it, but hey, let's not think reasonably...they said "disrespectful", they must be whining and crying foul.

[lostjumper]

“It really (ticked) me off. It was disrespectful to us to run the same play over and over and be successful,” defensive tackle Tony McDaniel told the Palm Beach Post’s Brian Biggane. “Normally when somebody’s driving down the field you just think, ‘Well, they just had a good run there,’ but you run the same play over and over, as a competitor that (ticks) me off.”

That's amazing. That quote has to be going up on bulletin boards all over the league so people can make fun of McDaniel, right? That really does sound like something the Onion would make up. I love that the Pats are making the dolphins cry by running the same play over and over and the dolphins can't stop it.

[Reverend]

It is "disrespectful," in a sense that if the Patriots respected the defensive players on that side of their field or Miami's coaching staff to make adjustments, they wouldn't do it. It does show a lack of respect. And the Dolphins' failure to stop it shows that they did not earn any respect. So "disrespectful" is a fair characterization, but "unsportsmanlike" wouldn't be.

Well, yeah, but then it's an empirical issue of disrespect, and not the pejorative. Respect is earned.

It's like that stupid shit in moveis (dunno if it happens in real life) where the girlfriend asks the guy if she can shave him. And he's like no and she's like, "Don't you trust me?" The correct answer is: "Why the fuck would I trust you to do be able to do that?"

This really is a new bar. Whatever happened to feeling shame?

[Reverend]

Next line in that Palm Beach Post article leads me to think any whining or controversy here is almost entirely a media concoction:

Seems like a reasonable way to look at it, but hey, let's not think reasonably...they said "disrespectful", they must be whining and crying foul.

The "(ticks)" portion is almost certainly "pisses." Running the same running play over and over again successfully pisses him off. This is like a new low in sense of responsibility. Any number of coaches would go ape-shit if they heard a player said this. Hell, any number of high school coaches would have their guys doing laps for saying something like this.

[Saints Rest]

These Dolphins would REALLY hate Mariano Rivera: "he is so disrespectful by throwing that cutter in on my hands every time when it is clear that I can't hit it. Most pitchers would throw me a fastball away so I could have a chance."

[drleather2001]

I said it in another thread, but I sincerely think the most likely explanation is that these guys have heard the word "Disrespect" so often, and in so many imprecise contexts, that it has lost all but the barest trace of literal meaning. It has become this formless term that just refers to anything another team/person does that they don't like.

It's like how the word "epic" has been transformed over the past few years into a synonym for "awesome", which is itself used as a bastardized placeholder for "cool", which of course doesnt literally mean anything close to "Excellent", but that's how it's used.

It's irritating to those of us that like to, you know, talk or write intelligently (or simply with precision), but I don't think they really know what the fuck they are talking about, and don't care.

Edited by drleather2001, 08 December 2012 - 11:54 AM.

[Reverend]

I actually think it's worse--everything is about disrespect to the exclusion of other possibilities. It's hater culture; hell, the only reason anyone aspires to excellence anymore is to stick it to all the people who didn't believe in them, apparently.

[Al Zarilla]

I had to doublecheck after that quote to make sure I wasn't reading an Onion article.

Real deal, no Onion. I just heard it made fun of on ESPN radio. It should make the "Come on man" portion on Monday Night Countdown, but whether or not I choose to watch that remains to be seen.

[Ralphwiggum]

So, we had a 58-0 game and in the Giants game Eli was still throwing in the fourth quarter when the Giants were up big. Let's see if we get any mention of either from anyone in the media today.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

So, we had a 58-0 game and in the Giants game Eli was still throwing in the fourth quarter when the Giants were up big. Let's see if we get any mention of either from anyone in the media today.

To be fair, in the 58-0 game, Russell Wilson came out five minutes into the 3rd quarter after the score was 45-0, though Flynn did make a few deep pass attempts (10-15+ yards) in the fourth when they were up by 51 and 58.

Manning's 4th quarter passing attempts were on 3rd & 8, 2nd & 10, and 3rd & 20. Fairly easy to argue all he was doing was trying to chew up clock and keep Brees off the field. Also pretty much exactly what a lot of Brady's 4th quarter blow-outs look like.

[Ralphwiggum]

I've got no problem with any of that. I am a "there is no such thing as running it up" guy when it comes to pro sports, and the NFL in particular. I was more commenting on the fact that the Pats would get killed in the media if they were the winning team in either of those games and I'm sure we'll hear nary a peep from anyone about these games.

[johnmd20]

I've got no problem with any of that. I am a "there is no such thing as running it up" guy when it comes to pro sports, and the NFL in particular. I was more commenting on the fact that the Pats would get killed in the media if they were the winning team in either of those games and I'm sure we'll hear nary a peep from anyone about these games.

Even if Brady was out, if the Pats were throwing bombs in the 4th quarter of a 51-0 game, they would get absolutely killed. Which is BS. Either everyone who does it is the devil or no one is.

But you can't blame the Giants for trying to get first downs in their game, the Saints do score points in bunches and their pass defense is shaky. The Giants had a huge lead in the 3rd quarter that they almost gave away. Why give the Saints a chance to do it again?

[richgedman'sghost]

So, we had a 58-0 game and in the Giants game Eli was still throwing in the fourth quarter when the Giants were up big. Let's see if we get any mention of either from anyone in the media today.

As I mentioned in previous threads, the Fox announcers in the Seattle game, did criticize college Pete for throwing the ball up 58-0 and for going for it on 4th down. So progress is being made. LOL
In addition, I have no sympathy for the Saints since they were throwing the ball up last year ahead 62-7 against the Colts.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

As I mentioned in previous threads, the Fox announcers in the Seattle game, did criticize college Pete for throwing the ball up 58-0 and for going for it on 4th down. So progress is being made. LOL
In addition, I have no sympathy for the Saints since they were throwing the ball up last year ahead 62-7 against the Colts.

I don't understand the criticism for going for it on that fourth down. What are the alternatives? Attempt a FG to extend the lead to 61 or punt for a net gain of 13 yards since it's most likely going to be a touchback. I mean, wouldn't it be worse "sportsmanship" to attempt a punt designed to pin the Cardinals inside their 5 or 10 when you're already up by nearly 60? Or insulting them to just take a knee even though there are seven minutes and change still on the clock?

You respect your opponent by continuing to play hard and not appear to be doing them any favors.

[loshjott]

I don't understand the criticism for going for it on that fourth down. What are the alternatives? Attempt a FG to extend the lead to 61 or punt for a net gain of 13 yards since it's most likely going to be a touchback. I mean, wouldn't it be worse "sportsmanship" to attempt a punt designed to pin the Cardinals inside their 5 or 10 when you're already up by nearly 60? Or insulting them to just take a knee even though there are seven minutes and change still on the clock?

You respect your opponent by continuing to play hard and not appear to be doing them any favors.

I heard some criticism of the Seahawks on the radio this morning also. As for that 4th and 23 play, he could have run a screen or just run the ball, rather than launching one to the end zone. I agree kicking a FG would have been even worse. I think BB said this same thing after one of the blowouts in 2007.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I heard some criticism of the Seahawks on the radio this morning also. As for that 4th and 23 play, he could have run a screen or just run the ball, rather than launching one to the end zone. I agree kicking a FG would have been even worse. I think BB said this same thing after one of the blowouts in 2007.

Yeah he did, against Dallas he had Kyle Eckel run it in from the 1 on 4th down late and took some shit for it. The logic was, you're giving the opponent a chance to stop you while allowing no points.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I heard some criticism of the Seahawks on the radio this morning also. As for that 4th and 23 play, he could have run a screen or just run the ball, rather than launching one to the end zone. I agree kicking a FG would have been even worse. I think BB said this same thing after one of the blowouts in 2007.

Wouldn't a screen or run fall into that same category of doing the opponent a favor? Sure, maybe you can still break a run or screen for a first down, but those aren't necessarily designed to gain the yardage necessary for a first. At least the deep pass is a clear attempt to gain the first (or the TD) and if the defense does their job, they stop the pass and get the ball at the 33. In the words of Tony McDaniel, I would think the Cardinals D would feel "disrespected" if the Seahawks just ran it up the middle and essentially rolled over for them.