92 replies to this topic

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Rosenthal: "Sources: Free-agent catcher David Ross agrees to two-year deal with #RedSox, pending physical."


Either they're not confident about Lavarnway taking a bigger role on the big league team or a move is afoot involving Salty or Lavarnway.

[knucklecup]

He was fine offensively in limited action last season and has always been able to neutralize the running the game with his arm and defensive prowess, something the Red Sox have been bad at for years.

If they can get a piece for Saltalamacchia, this makes all the sense in the world.

I don't think this eliminates them from the Napoli sweepstakes either.

[MoGator71]

Excellent news, depending on the terms of course. Validates the Russell Martin interest, and Ross is a much better option than Martin. I'm curious which catcher they're uncomfortable with, as I felt like they had more pressing needs, and while a Salty/Lavarnway platoon wasn't ideal, it at least appeared to be adequate.

[FelixMantilla]

So a poor fielding platoon outfielder gets a two year deal. Nice work Ben.

EDIT: Damn! At least I gave a few people some laughs...

Edited by FelixMantilla, 10 November 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

He's a catcher.

[Corsi]

So a poor fielding platoon outfielder gets a two year deal. Nice work Ben.

Wrong Ross.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Looking at Ross' numbers, the big question is, why hasn't he been starting? The answer being, of course, that his team the past four years has had this guy named McCann around....

But you have to think that you don't sign a soon-to-be-36 catcher who hasn't started more than 50 games in five years to be your #1 guy. So it seems like there are three possibilities:

1) They're disenchanted with Lavarnway and plan to trade him, creating a need for a new #2.

2) They're disenchanted with Salty and plan to trade him and give Lavarnway a shot at the starting job, and wanted the best backup they could find in case Lavarnway doesn't cut it and they need to give the #2 more playing time.

3) They are planning to convert either Salty or Lavarnway to 1B, creating a need for another catcher.

[mabrowndog]

So a poor fielding platoon outfielder gets a two year deal. Nice work Ben.

He's a catcher.

David, not Cody.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

So a poor fielding platoon outfielder gets a two year deal. Nice work Ben.

DAVID Ross, not Cody.

[Corsi]

Ross will be “more than a backup but not a starter” for #RedSox, source says. Team could move Salty or Lavarnway. Plans unclear.

http://bit.ly/ST0Fju

[Lose Remerswaal]

So a poor fielding platoon outfielder gets a two year deal. Nice work Ben.

David Ross, not Cody Ross.

And in case anyone's wondering, we determined he wasn't Jewish last time around.

Can the return of Mike "Fort" McKenry be far behind?

Edit:

Damn, while I was confirming the Jewish thing, 5 other posts showed up.

Edited by Lose Remerswaal, 10 November 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[singaporesoxfan]

I'm in favour of more of those Ross GIFs

[Corsi]

So a poor painting artist gets gets a two year deal. Nice work Ben.

[someoneanywhere]

I don't think this tells us anything -- yet -- about what they will do with the current catching situation. What it does tell us -- what to me is striking about it -- is that the Sox can use that financial flexibility very strategically. We can assume that no one else was going to offer Ross more than he got -- otherwise he wouldn't have signed so quickly, and with a club that may not contend. But from the Sox perspective, the early signing gives them a flexible approach to deals in the winter, and to me -- I can't read it any other way -- signals that Lavarnway might be had in the right deal. Certainly other clubs notice.

[bosockboy]

Ross has a dead even split for his career, so he is a pretty undervalued player. Love the move.

My gut says this has to do with Salty and Ross is seen as a more palatable option to ease Lavarnway in for the next two years.

[Rudy Pemberton]

It's a weak catching market, so you quickly snag one of the top guys for two years, which allows you to break Lavarnway in more slowly. Salty becomes more valuable in the market, is flipped for a prospect, and the Sox probably save money too. Good strategy I think.

[OttoC]

Saltalamacchia has not done well batting right-handed vs left-handed pitchers; whereas, Ross has done better. That could lead to a platoon of the two. On the other hand, Lavarnway has done better versus left-handers in his limited MLB playing time (and goes back to his minor league days), so this could be a Ross-Lavarnway platoon.

I prefer the latter platoon and perhaps they can get a useful return for Saltalamacchia in trade.

[mabrowndog]

The Yankees were reportedly considering or even favoring Ross to replace Martin, so it's nice to see the Sox box out on the rebound.

Ross will be “more than a backup but not a starter” for #RedSox, source says.

http://bit.ly/ST0Fju

That seemed pretty obvious. Ross will be 36 by the time opening day rolls around.

[LeoCarrillo]

So a poor painting artist gets gets a two year deal. Nice work Ben.

That's Marion Ross, not David.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Rosenthal reports it at 2 years, $6.2M.

[mabrowndog]

So a poor painting artist gets gets a two year deal. Nice work Ben.

That's Marion Ross, not David.

not

Edited by mabrowndog, 10 November 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[someoneanywhere]

The frightening thing about that, Doggie, is that there is striking resemblance.

[The Gray Eagle]

Very solid pickup, adding quality depth at a key position. Ross should be good to catch about 60 games a year, and his OPS has been .871, .761 and .770 the last three years, which is great for a catcher. He's old, turning 36 in March, and with catchers at that age there's always a chance he could fall off a cliff at anytime, but $3 million per year isn't a big financial risk at all. At his age, you really don't want him playing full-time, he would probably get hurt and/or get worn out if he played more than 60 games, but hopefully that's all we'll need from him.

If Lavarnway shows he's good enough to win the job, Ross won't be a big obstacle in playing time or contract-wise, but if Lavarnway isn't ready, then we're still okay at the position. This is exactly what we should be doing. We should do something similar at OF and SS too.

I wonder if we could get somehing useful for Salty, I would hope we've already been looking around to see what we might get. Or maybe the plan is to have Lavarnway start the season in Pawtucket and see how he does, and how the team does, and then if we need to, flip Salty in midseason to a team whose catcher got hurt.

[SoxLegacy]

Love this move, and this thread--some very good laughs here! I tend to think that we'll see Salty moved before Lavarnway, in that his stock is ostensibly pretty high right now.

[MikeM]

2) They're disenchanted with Salty and plan to trade him and give Lavarnway a shot at the starting job, and wanted the best backup they could find in case Lavarnway doesn't cut it and they need to give the #2 more playing time.

This. Very solid move, and i love the fact Ben moved on it early.

Bring on the soon-to-be and unwarranted "that's all Ben got for Salty?!?" outrage

[Corsi]

Abraham:

David Ross sure looks like a mentor/frequent backup for Lavarnway with Salty getting traded.

https://twitter.com/...297482084610048

[ItOnceWasMyLife]

but $3 million per year isn't a big financial risk at all.

Not that this wouldn't have happened without the Punto Trade, but it makes it that much easier to throw in the extra million (or whatever) to get the deal done early.

[dbn]

Any time you can lock up a former member of the Continental Congress for ~$3M/yr, you do it. Nice work.

[edit: oops, I didn't realize it was the Scottish moral philosopher, W. David Ross. Still, a solid move.]

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Tell me why it's so obvious that Salty should be moved when Lavarnway has shown less than nothing in quite extended major league chances.

I don't see some pressing need to trade a 20
HR catcher in favor of a guy who's been abysmal in the majors. And Lavarnway is no spring chicken either.

[Corsi]

Jason Heyward:

Wish nothing but the BEST looking ahead for my man DRoss! Great teammate, mentor, locker mate and friend to me. As he would say "he's the best out there!

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jv5b5j

He was one of the most beloved and respected figures within the clubhouse. His leadership skills and ability to handle the pitching staff will be missed.

http://markbowman.ml...th-the-red-sox/

[Corsi]

Jim Bowden:

Red Sox signing of Ross means he'll probably back-up Lavarnway and Salty will get traded which Cherington has been trying to do since July

https://twitter.com/...305367401291776

[Rudy Pemberton]

Tell me why it's so obvious that Salty should be moved when Lavarnway has shown less than nothing in quite extended major league chances.

I don't see some pressing need to trade a 20
HR catcher in favor of a guy who's been abysmal in the majors. And Lavarnway is no spring chicken either.

I think the simple answer is that they aren't going to sign Salty to an extension, never mind that he can't get on base and is suspect defensively and is going to make 4m+ more than Lavarnway, at least. Trading Salty would be selling high, trading Lavanway would be selling low.

[someoneanywhere]

I think the simple answer is that they aren't going to sign Salty to an extension, never mind that he can't get on base and is suspect defensively and is going to make 4m+ more than Lavarnway, at least. Trading Salty would be selling high, trading Lavanway would be selling low.

Come again, Rudy? An expensive out maker who can't catch -- and we're selling high?

You know what you're getting with Salty. You're selling neither high nor low. With Lavarnway, his appeal is potential. You don't know what you're getting. You could be getting a bust. Or you could've getting a lowcost power hitter with the potential to grow into a decent catcher.

The value is perception in the one, known production in the other. An interested party in Lavarnway is interested in what might be -- therefore, his value.

[Quintanariffic]

Tell me why it's so obvious that Salty should be moved when Lavarnway has shown less than nothing in quite extended major league chances.

I don't see some pressing need to trade a 20
HR catcher in favor of a guy who's been abysmal in the majors. And Lavarnway is no spring chicken either.

This post is likely to prove as prophetic as your insistence that Buchholz didn't have the mental make up to be a good starter in MLB. Why would you weight a 200 PA sample over a 2000 PA sample in the minors where Lavarnway proved conclusively that he can hit for power with plus plate discipline? I suppose you were on the Alex Cora train in May of 2007 vs. Pedroia? Pedey's first 160 PA were every bit as lousy as Lavarnway's.

As for not being a spring chicken - Lavarnway will be 25 until next August. That's pretty much the average age for catchers sticking in the majors. It's difficult to undersand why you'd prefer to keep around an increasingly expensive catcher who has proven definitely in the majors that he has poor defense and no ability to get on base.

[koufax32]

I assume RLW's mL splits vs. lhps are similar to the sss he's shown in Boston. If so he makes the perfect platoon partner with Ross' .818 ops vs. rhps.
Here's hoping Salty can get the attention of a GM that pays no attention to obp.

[fineyoungarm]

So a washed up Motown singer gets a two year deal.

Nice work, Ben.

[Rossox]

Rosses rule!

[Lose Remerswaal]

So a washed up Motown singer gets a two year deal.

Nice work, Ben.

Why a picture of Michael Jackson? I thought he retired nearly 10 years ago. Although the Sox *are* stocking up on righty relievers

[Savin Hillbilly]

I assume RLW's mL splits vs. lhps are similar to the sss he's shown in Boston. If so he makes the perfect platoon partner with Ross' .818 ops vs. rhps.

Through 2010 (which is as far as drivelinebaseball's minor league splits go) Lavarnway's platoon splits were all over the place. No consistent pattern either way. In 2010 he had a pretty strong normal split in double A, moderate reverse split in high-A. 2009, strong reverse split in Greenville. 2008, normal split in NYPL.

I'd say based on the evidence that's there, if they deal Salty and keep Lavarnway they won't need to think in terms of L/R platooning. They can split up the time based on other considerations, which is excellent.

Edited by Savin Hillbilly, 10 November 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

This post is likely to prove as prophetic as your insistence that Buchholz didn't have the mental make up to be a good starter in MLB. Why would you weight a 200 PA sample over a 2000 PA sample in the minors where Lavarnway proved conclusively that he can hit for power with plus plate discipline? I suppose you were on the Alex Cora train in May of 2007 vs. Pedroia? Pedey's first 160 PA were every bit as lousy as Lavarnway's.

As for not being a spring chicken - Lavarnway will be 25 until next August. That's pretty much the average age for catchers sticking in the majors. It's difficult to undersand why you'd prefer to keep around an increasingly expensive catcher who has proven definitely in the majors that he has poor defense and no ability to get on base.

Or as prophetic as my statements about Bobby Valentine.

I wasn't on the Cora train, because Pedroia had crushed the ball in the minors, and had only one exposure to the majors when he was struggling. Lavarnway's had 2, he's older than Pedey was, and he's been beyond atrocious in every way. And as the season wound on this year he showed absolutely no improvement at all.

Lavarnway is 1) older, 2) terrible at the major league level over 63 games and more than 200 PA. At some point you have to start taking into account that the guy may never be anything. Anything is possible and I suppose he could suddenly start showing some competance at the dish, but we've been waiting a long time now and he's moving quickly out of prospect status. This year is pretty much his last chance; if he flames out then once again the Sox will have no young catchers around.

And to keep him the Sox are gonna trade away a catcher who can play in the majors with some pop to boot? Seems far too risky to me. I'd rather keep Salty.

[PedroKsBambino]

Ironically, that speed of judgment is what made Salty available to the Sox in the first place!

[Adrian's Dome]

And to keep him the Sox are gonna trade away a catcher who can play in the majors with some pop to boot? Seems far too risky to me. I'd rather keep Salty.

I disagree. It's very likely to end up a "eh, let's see what we've got" season for the Sox straight from the major league squad down to AA, so why keep around a known commodity in Salty who really only has one plus (the aforementioned "pop",) which Lavarnway may also have? With Ross on board you have a perfectly capable backup in the mix which eases the burden on Ryan as well.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Salty's OPS+ in 2012 was 95. Let's not pretend the guy sucks.

[Adrian's Dome]

Salty's OPS+ in 2012 was 95. Let's not pretend the guy sucks.

I don't think anybody's saying that. The reasoning is more that it doesn't seem entirely necessary to pay an increasingly expensive Salty when you can utilize the cheaper and younger Lavarnway hoping that he can match (or even exceed in a best-case scenario) what you would expect from Salty.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I don't think anybody's saying that. The reasoning is more that it doesn't seem entirely necessary to pay an increasingly expensive Salty when you can utilize the cheaper and younger Lavarnway hoping that he can match (or even exceed in a best-case scenario) what you would expect from Salty.

This would be a perfectly reasonable viewpoint to me had Lavarnway shown the slightest bit of offensive contributions in his major league time so far.

He hasn't. Do we want to dump a reasonably young starting catcher on the hope that Lavarnway will figure this out?

[Quintanariffic]

Or as prophetic as my statements about Bobby Valentine.

I wasn't on the Cora train, because Pedroia had crushed the ball in the minors, and had only one exposure to the majors when he was struggling. Lavarnway's had 2, he's older than Pedey was, and he's been atrocious. And as the season wound on this year he showed absolutely no improvement at all.

Lavarnway is 1) older, 2) terrible at the major league level over 63 games and more than 200 PA. At some point you have to start taking into account that the guy may never be anything.
And to keep him the Sox are gonna trade away a catcher who can play in the majors with some pop to boot? Seems far too risky to me. I'd rather keep Salty.

Right - because no one saw the Valentine thing coming. Don't hurt yourself trying to pay yourself on the back for that one. Are we going to be subjected to that episode of "I told you so" for the next 4 years? Keep your prognosticating focused on loud mouth managers.

As for the Pedroia comp, Lavarnway has also crushed the ball in the minors. Which minor league line would you prefer?

.307/.392/.452

or

.286/.376/.506

As for Pedey's exposures to the major, you're also wrong here. Pedroia sucked both in his September 2006 debut as well as the first 5 weeks of his 2007 season, comprising approximately 160 PA. At that point, he was sitting with a .540 OPS for his MLB career. I'm sure you were eager to bury him then, given such a poor MLB track record, right?

This sort of "if he doesn't perform right away, then he's no good" attitude is exactly the wrong approach if you want to develop young players. They don't all kill it out of the box. You'd likely give you left testicle for Alex Gordon right now - what did he do in his first few years in KC?

Edited by Quintanariffic, 10 November 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

This would be a perfectly reasonable viewpoint to me had Lavarnway shown the slightest bit of offensive contributions in his major league time so far.

He hasn't. Do we want to dump a reasonably young starting catcher on the hope that Lavarnway will figure this out?

Who cares how young Salty is? The Sox control him for 1 year. Are you ready to give him a long term deal?

Regardless, they wouldn't just be trading Salty and handing the job to Lavarnway, they would have Ross which is the subject of the thread.

[maufman]

I have no special insight as to whether Ross's defense is as good as advertised, or if he's likely to sustain his production through his age 36-37 seasons.

From a process perspective, however, I love the signing.

As I see it, the Sox have two decisions to make this winter that will materially affect the team beyond 2013:

1. Whether any of the big-money free agents are worth the risk.
2. Whether Salty is the future at catcher.

This move suggests they understand the need to commit to a direction on #2. I'm tentatively in the Lavarnway camp and like the deal on that basis, but even if the FO is committed to Salty, Ross's presence should strengthen their hand when they approach Salty to discuss an extension.

[YTF]

Can't imagine someone her age is going to be to very mobile behind the plate, but already having someone on the roster who will be able to mend that big ass flag that they drape over the monster is brilliant!!!!

Nice work, Ben.

Edited by YTF, 10 November 2012 - 02:52 PM.

[SoxScout]

I'm fine with the deal, but it seems like there should have been a move with Lavarnway or Salty lined up to happen immediately after. I really don't want to hear about Lavarnway going back to AAA, Salty being a 1B option, enough at bats for everyone, ect. If you've been hoping/trying to move Salty since July, cross your fingers now doesn't seem like a good idea.

I'd love for the Mets to get involved.

Edited by SoxScout, 10 November 2012 - 02:49 PM.