140 replies to this topic

[Worst Trade Evah]

The more you hear and the more time passes, the more I wonder what the hell exactly they thought they saw in Valentine in their interview and evaluation process? I mean, they spent months sifting Carl Crawford's garbage (and missed there too, for that matter), so presumably with Valentine they didn't just sit down and chat for an hour. What was their process and how did they get it so wrong?

I've been nervous about what's been happening in baseball ops ever since I heard they'd offered Jason Bay 4/60, which I didn't like (and it turned out even worse in retrospect). And it's been downhill since. How could smart guys be so wrong?

Edited by Worst Trade Evah, 25 October 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

The more you hear and the more time passes, the more I wonder what the hell exactly they thought they saw in Valentine in their interview and evaluation process? I mean, they spent months sifting Carl Crawford's garbage (and missed there too, for that matter), so presumably with Valentine they didn't just sit down and chat for an hour. How did they get it so wrong?

I've been nervous about what's been happening in baseball ops ever since I heard they'd offered Jason Bay 4/60, which I thought was a bad idea at the time. And it's been downhill since. How could smart guys be so wrong?

I obviously cannot speak for ownership, but as someone who was in favor of the Bobby V hiring, I will spew here the bullshit I spun to anyone I spoke too, as it is and was the only sensible rationale.

After the way last year ended, with so much criticism of the players (chicken and beer, etc.) I think the owners wanted someone that would deflect the attention away from those guys and be able to handle the heat. They couldn't pry Farrell away, who had a rep around here as a John Wayne type and could come in and crack the whip and the media would give him slack. They felt they couldn't turn a rebellious clubhouse over to a newbie like Sveum so they went with Bobby, an old school guy that would lay down the law, get these guys in order and all the while, his dancing clown act would direct the attention to himself and let the players do their thing. "Look at me! Look at me!"

Now, we got the clown act and yes, everyone looked at him. He tried to lay down the law, but he didnt know how to do it anymore. And everything else went as badly as it could. I think his length away from the MLB game, his lack of cohesion in the coaching staff, his lack of internal filter, when mixed with the injuries and subpar performances...well, we saw what happened. It went down in a flaming pile of dog shit. But I don't think that was 100% guaranteed from day one (though many here obviously would disagree with that). I know many here will cry out that they saw this coming and there's nothing to do but tip your hat to them. But I also wonder if Gene Lamont or Dale Sveum would have fared much better? It wouldn't be the shit show it was, but would they still be playing?

The FO made some huge mistakes, hiring Bobby at the front of the list. But it could have been better and might actually have worked given different circumstances.

Or they were drunk. It could be that too.

Edited by Papelbon's Poutine, 25 October 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

The more you hear and the more time passes, the more I wonder what the hell exactly they thought they saw in Valentine in their interview and evaluation process? I mean, they spent months sifting Carl Crawford's garbage (and missed there too, for that matter), so presumably with Valentine they didn't just sit down and chat for an hour. What was their process and how did they get it so wrong?

My theory is the plan all along was Farrell, and when Anthopoulos stonewalled them, they were left with a weak pool of candidates who were really there just to fill out the field and make it look like there was an actual process. Cherington went with the guy he believed to be the next best choice (after Farrell) in Dale Sveum, especially knowing that Theo wanted him too. Henry vetoed Sveum and decided he wanted a short-term, not likely to overwhelm them and put a stranglehold on the job, option in order to keep them in line to pursue Farrell when he became available. Thus the final two were old man Gene Lamont and old man Valentine. Lucchino was sold more on Valentine, made a heavier push for Valentine than anyone else in the office could muster for any one else, and Valentine got the job.

As for how Valentine snookered them...he's a snake oil salesman. He charmed them, told them funny anecdotes of the old days (that were probably 100% embellished, if not outright lies), and was desperate enough to acquiesce to them on a number of fronts on which he could have fought harder (longer deal, more say on his staff, etc).

[Quintanariffic]

Apparently the irony of the "I ought to come over there and punch you in the face" comment in response to a suggestion that he quit on the team is lost on Bobby. I don't think he'd want Ortiz to come over and punch him in the face for making the same suggestion.

[Toe Nash]

My theory is the plan all along was Farrell, and when Anthopoulos stonewalled them, they were left with a weak pool of candidates who were really there just to fill out the field and make it look like there was an actual process.

I don't really understand this though. There are only 30 MLB manager jobs. If you need someone with experience, there are 90 pitching, bench and hitting coaches and another 30 AAA managers at any time, plus bullpen coaches and other jobs in MLB orgs. There are also plenty of examples of guys with less experience coming in and doing well (Matheny and Ventura most recently), though maybe the Sox weren't the team for that. Clearly all those guys can't leave their current jobs at any one time, but it seems unbelievable you they couldn't find a good pool of 4-5 applicants for any MLB managing gig.

So either they didn't do enough work finding plan Bs (certainly possible), they weren't showing enough imagination, or, I dunno. I guess the same thing happens in other sports too as mediocre coaches keep getting jobs and failing, and usually have another gig lined up after they're fired.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

I thought that it ca

The more you hear and the more time passes, the more I wonder what the hell exactly they thought they saw in Valentine in their interview and evaluation process? I mean, they spent months sifting Carl Crawford's garbage (and missed there too, for that matter), so presumably with Valentine they didn't just sit down and chat for an hour. What was their process and how did they get it so wrong?

I thought it came down to the fact that Lucchino and Valentine are friends who go way back. Lucchino had called (though not formally interviewed) Valentine for the job back in '03, when it eventually went to Francona. Valentine at the time claimed that he counted himself out of the job by failing to criticize Grady Little's "leave Pedro in" move, but Lucchino denied that.

Either way, it seemed to me that when another opportunity rolled around, Lucchino just hired his buddy. Simple as that. Classic Bad Management 101.

Remember that Little was Lucchino's pick, too, and he pretty much forced Theo to retain him in '03 (or so it appeared). So Lucchino's 0-2 on manager selections.

[zenter]

I thought it came down to the fact that Lucchino and Valentine are friends who go way back. Lucchino had called (though not formally interviewed) Valentine for the job back in '03, when it eventually went to Francona. Valentine at the time claimed that he counted himself out of the job by failing to criticize Grady Little's "leave Pedro in" move, but Lucchino denied that.

Either way, it seemed to me that when another opportunity rolled around, Lucchino just hired his buddy. Simple as that. Classic Bad Management 101.

There's also the (frequently overlooked) fact that, when more distant from the personalities, Valentine is a pretty good evaluator of talent on the field. He's proven himself a horrible manager of people, expectations, and the media. I'd argue that his best role is a back-office roving scout who serves is an advisory role directly to the GM (and that's it), but the way he's handled this firing means that is highly unlikely to happen.

[Tim Naehrings Girl]

Here is the link to Bobby Valentine's interview with Le batard. You have to scroll down a little and it was on October 24th, if anyone cares to hear his lies.



http://www.theticket...m/lebatard.aspx

Edited by Tim Naehrings Girl, 27 October 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[Stuart Scott's Lazy Eye]

Ortiz responds, "Oh hell no"

"No. 1, never bite the hand that feeds you, because in the end that will come back to bite you," Ortiz said. "I was one of those players that always showed support for him. In fact, I held a couple of player meetings.

"No. 2, the day that I returned from the DL, I told him that I was not sure what percentage health-wise I was in, but that I could not be out there without trying to help. When I told him that, I put my career on the side to help him and the team. Being in an incredible amount of pain, I went out there to support them.

"No. 3, after he went on national TV to say what he said, he sent me a text message trying to tell me that it was the media trying to change things. I did not respond to the message and I said to myself, this guy must have some mental issues or needs medicine or something? I said, I am dealing with someone crazy and I am not going to drive myself crazy, so it is better if I leave it alone."

Ortiz said he is only speaking up about it now because he was focused on finalizing a two-year contract with the Red Sox.

http://espn.go.com/b...bobby-valentine

[wutang112878]

he sent me a text message trying to tell me that it was the media trying to change things

If this is true, which I am sure it is, Bobby really is nuts. He stated this as clearly as possible in that interview, how he could claim anyone was changing his words is unreal.

And Ortiz's part about mental issues is awesome, its an amazing summary of Bobby's year and what a lot of us thought.

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

"No. 3, after he went on national TV to say what he said, he sent me a text message trying to tell me that it was the media trying to change things. I did not respond to the message and I said to myself, this guy must have some mental issues or needs medicine or something? I said, I am dealing with someone crazy and I am not going to drive myself crazy, so it is better if I leave it alone."

This quote is worth the two-year commitment.

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

"No. 3, after he went on national TV to say what he said, he sent me a text message trying to tell me that it was the media trying to change things. I did not respond to the message and I said to myself, this guy must have some mental issues or needs medicine or something? I said, I am dealing with someone crazy and I am not going to drive myself crazy, so it is better if I leave it alone."

Having listened to Ortiz the past xx years, I'm guessing that Ortiz didn't use the word "guy".......

[Dogman2]

This quote is worth the two-year commitment.

Yep. I can only hope that the scribes continue to ask him about all of this. Air out all dirty laundry now and completely start over.

[redsoxstiff]

I don't hate BV...I don't hate the writers and TV people for scrounging a living out of news and trumped up stories that push cash flow...The FO and owners are masters at CYA...

BV is a blabber mouth who worked a town that has an extraordinary residual hatred and depression watching the incompetent org. screw the pooch...

So ambeguity if any or take a slant any way is the formula for a successful run in the Boston market...

BV shoveled as much shit as any scribe would want and helped via distractions to put a horrific season to rest...

If you think that BV veered from his well known 'style' you are in another universe...So Lucky et alia should be equally vilified...

The problem with that is it is so much easier to hate BV...

Nap time...

[Foulkey Reese]

This quote is worth the two-year commitment.

That quote almost makes 2012 worth it. Wow.

[Fisks Of Fury]

This quote is worth the two-year commitment.

Holy shit, is it ever.

Sig'd.

[rembrat]

Ortiz is going to tear him to pieces in the media.

Called it.

Bobby Valentine will never work in baseball again.

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Why are we still talking about this loser?

What was that movie where you could go to a clinic and have your memories erased? I want that wrt Bobby V.

[JimD]

What was that movie where you could go to a clinic and have your memories erased? I want that wrt Bobby V.

[sackamano]

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

[ToeKneeArmAss]

If Rembrat is going to give himself a high-five for his prediction, I'm going to take one for mine too:

The highlight of the interview for me was Bobby's revelation that he's aware of his incredible lack of self-awareness. At the age of 62 he's finally realized that what you say and how you say it matter - and that he's totally inept in this domain. He admits this in the interview - how he's sometimes short with people just out of distraction or whatever, and they take it the wrong way. He's just clueless how he comes across and practically said that to Costas.

As a case in point, I'll bet this entire brouhaha that he's brought upon himself through the Ortiz comment will come as a total surprise to him. In his mind, he's just recounting facts - trade made, season lost, DO
comes back, can't go full out, realizes the futility in pushing it, and shuts it down. I'll bet he had no clue as the words left his mouth that they could (and would) be construed as throwing David under the bus.

[reggiecleveland]

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

This quote is worth the two-year commitment.

All that was lacking was Ortiz dropping the mic and walking away.

Perfect.

[YTF]

OK, can I give myself a congratulatory reach around as well?

Am I the only one seeing this as Bobby's greatest contribution to the team? Can this and other things that will surely follow serve as the best piece of motivation and source of unity that this fuck off has ever given this franchise?

Honestly Papi's comments didn't really make me as giddy as some others here. I mean really, we all knew that something was coming at some point and it was fairly tame. Yes hearing Papi say that Bobby's "loco" and needs some medicine brought a smile, but I guess it's the fact that many of us "needed" to hear something from inside the clubhouse about Valentine more so than what was said or how it was said. I think David may be taking the higher road. His tone is less outrage and more that of surprise, disappointment and sadness for a pathetic figure. I think as time goes on we may hear a little more from other players, but I expect the franchise will try to keep internal feedback of the failed the Valentine experiment to a minimum in an effort to move forward with the Farrell years. Those in the clubhouse know what really happened and again I think Bobby's words will serve as some sort of rallying point for some of these guys individually and as a team. They have a lot to prove this coming season.

[Jinhocho]

OK, can I give myself a congratulatory reach around as well?



Honestly Papi's comments didn't really make me as giddy as some others here. I mean really, we all knew that something was coming at some point and it was fairly tame. Yes hearing Papi say that Bobby's "loco" and needs some medicine brought a smile, but I guess it's the fact that many of us "needed" to hear something from inside the clubhouse about Valentine more so than what was said or how it was said. I think David may be taking the higher road. His tone is less outrage and more that of surprise, disappointment and sadness for a pathetic figure. I think as time goes on we may hear a little more from other players, but I expect the franchise will try to keep internal feedback of the failed the Valentine experiment to a minimum in an effort to move forward with the Farrell years. Those in the clubhouse know what really happened and again I think Bobby's words will serve as some sort of rallying point for some of these guys individually and as a team. They have a lot to prove this coming season.

LL leads the charge of trashing people on the way out. LL hired BV. LL has egg on his face for hiring BV. BV will not be trashed so much on the way out.

[BellhornsBiatch]

That quote almost makes 2012 worth it. Wow.

Almost. The picture of Pedey as B the V sleeps on a table in the background will make it worth it.

[wutang112878]

Bobby V spoke at SalemState last night, articles are here and here. Some quotes below just seemed interesting to me, and some [like communicating playing time and being quite] seem to indicate that he still doesnt realize that a few small changes could have helped him a great deal, although I guess the 'quieter' part wouldnt be a small change for him:

They (management) wanted a tamer, quieter Bobby V, and it didn’t suit me very well. I like talking

About his successor, John Farrell, he said: “I don’t know him from Adam. Everyone tells me he’s a good guy, gets along with the media and the front office. That’s a good start.”

“Not everyone needs to know everything,” he said, adding that he was baffled by some of the players complaining that he didn’t fill out his lineup card early enough in the day. “The culture here in Boston is people feel like they have to know everything — they don’t. ... Is four hours enough time to mentally and physically prepare to play? I think it is.”

He also said: “I had a back-up catcher, I won’t say who, he always wanted to know when he was going to play. Once a week. Be ready to play.”

About the communication snafus that happened throughout the season, Valentine said it’s not always necessary for everyone to know everything, including himself. But, "attitude filters down. Information doesn’t always have to.”


“Change is not something anyone likes, but it is time to change.”

The coaches (on the Red Sox) had their own ways. Hitting coach Dave Magadan didn’t like having me around the batting cage because we spoke different languages.

The change quote, which is given without real context, struck me because I guess it was pointed at the players but I guess Bobby didnt think it applied to him at all.

[mabrowndog]

It should be obvious to all of us that the "back-up catcher" he's talking about was Shoppach.

Go away, Bobby. Just go away, shut the fuck up, and die.

[C4CRVT]

Doesn't it make sense that a catcher would want some advance notice? The catcher needs some major prep time for the lineup he's catching against and the SP that he's matched up with.

Must be Dave Magadan isn't fluent in douchewistle.

Edited by C4CRVT, 09 November 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[wutang112878]

I can sort of understand Bobbys point on that one, its probably a little challenging to project your lineup a full week [due to injuries and opponent pitcher rotation changes] and be able to tell a catcher exactly what day he will be in. And technically the catcher should probably be doing about the same prep if he is or isnt starting because he could come in due to injury.

What I dont get is the whole thing about posting the lineup 4 hours ahead of time. I would think its not that much more work for Bobby to post at least who will be starting, maybe not the order a day in advance. And I remember some articles during the Tito days with quotes from guys saying that they appreciate knowing they wouldnt be starting the next day because it gave them some more mental rest. Thats one issue I think he certainly could have compromised on.

[mabrowndog]

Look, Bobby V proved last night beyond the shadow of a doubt what an egocentric ignoramus he is. On the one hand, he's miffed at management for wanting a "quieter" Bobby V. Why? Because by his own admission he likes to talk. On the other hand, he's pontificating about how nobody on the team needed to hear any "information" from him.

It's Communication 101, and he's a colossal failure at it.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

He's bad with words and with people, yet was put in charge of both. He's also pretty clearly the biggest asshole in the organization since Pinky Higgins. He's still yet to understand why he was such a miserable failure who bears the vast majority of responsibility for the miserable season we just had.

He can go away now. Forever.

[wutang112878]

Actually, in his eyes this last year probably shouldnt be considered failure because....

“I think the team is going to be better because of all the nonsense this year,” Valentine said.

I cant think of a single reason why his epic failure makes the team better, except for the fact that it rid us of some bad contracts and it got him fired.

[rembrat]

I can sort of understand Bobbys point on that one, its probably a little challenging to project your lineup a full week [due to injuries and opponent pitcher rotation changes] and be able to tell a catcher exactly what day he will be in. And technically the catcher should probably be doing about the same prep if he is or isnt starting because he could come in due to injury.

It's not really hard to figure out when your backup catcher should get playing time. The schedule is set in stone months before the season starts. Day game after a night game? Boom, backup catcher time. 4 or 5 games in a row? It might be a good idea to give your starter a blow. And the same applies to the opponents rotation, barring same day injury.

We're talking about a guy who didn't know the handedness of an opposing pitcher when he made out his lineup for chrissakes. He should never be defended.

[uncannymanny]

Look, Bobby V proved last night beyond the shadow of a doubt what an egocentric ignoramus he is. On the one hand, he's miffed at management for wanting a "quieter" Bobby V. Why? Because by his own admission he likes to talk. On the other hand, he's pontificating about how nobody on the team needed to hear any "information" from him.

It's Communication 101, and he's a colossal failure at it.

Absolutely right. I think the biggest revelation here is that management specifically asked for him to tone down his mouth (which he ignored right out of the gate through at least last night). It sheds light on the fact that they were hoping to get BV the game/clubhouse manager and leave BV the mouth manger unemployed. They were obviously sweet talked into this being feasible.

[yecul]

Let's take everything he said at face value. Even giving him everything -- players should not need huge lead times for things like the lineup and so forth -- then he still failed by not setting expectations.

Players have a problem with the timing of the lineup? Either bump up the time or tell them that's the way it is. Sitting in your office with the door closed is the worst option available and was the he appeared to take time and again. Actually, chatting with the media seemed to be his preferred option...

[wutang112878]

It's not really hard to figure out when your backup catcher should get playing time. The schedule is set in stone months before the season starts. Day game after a night game? Boom, backup catcher time. 4 or 5 games in a row? It might be a good idea to give your starter a blow. And the same applies to the opponents rotation, barring same day injury.

We're talking about a guy who didn't know the handedness of an opposing pitcher when he made out his lineup for chrissakes. He should never be defended.

I was just trying to be a little fair to Bobby, because I tend to crap all over him.

Considering his lineup screw-ups, I doubt this ever was the case but the one complexity he had with the backup catcher was that Salty mainly batted as a lefty, and Schoppach was a righty. So if he really wanted to think deeply about the lineup he might want to shift Schoppachs day around a little bit to matchup with a tough opposing lefty pitcher, but the opponents pitching schedule might be up in the air a little bit..... Anyway, certainly a rare scenario but one that might justify not just slotting Schoppach in with some standard schedule. I feel like I have a little less anti-Bobby bias for doing that!

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I was just trying to be a little fair to Bobby, because I tend to crap all over him.

Anyone who does this from now on is getting banned.

There's no reason to be fair to him. He proves that with each passing day and each moronic, narcissistic statement that emerges from his foul maw.

[JimBoSox9]

Anyone who does this from now on is getting banned.

There's no reason to be fair to him. He proves that with each passing day and each moronic, narcissistic statement that emerges from his foul maw.

Come on, even you have to admit this is chuckle-worthy:

Picking on the Sox notorious computer program, dubbed Carmine, which the brass use to analyze players, Valentine said he brought it down to the dugout during a crucial point in the season to take advantage of her sage advice.
“I asked her probably six times, ‘What do you think should happen now?’ he said. “All six times, it said, ‘Fire the manager.’”

Edit: WTF is going on with copy/paste formatting these days??

Edited by JimBoSox9, 09 November 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Nope, not going to give him the slightest bit of credit for trying to be self-deprecating, since any such attempt on his part to do so comes across as incredibly insincere. When he's not making incredibly unfunny jokes, his serious statements about the 2012 season show quite clearly that he still doesn't understand why he was such a putrid fuckup.

He can go die now.

[mabrowndog]

Picking on the Sox notorious computer program, dubbed Carmine, which the brass use to analyze players, Valentine said he brought it down to the dugout during a crucial point in the season to take advantage of her sage advice.
“I asked her probably six times, ‘What do you think should happen now?’ he said. “All six times, it said, ‘Fire the manager.’”

More proof that Carmine kicks ass.