140 replies to this topic

[Jinhocho]

It was a huge mistake to hire him and wonderful to fire him. Fuck him and LL.

[ToeKneeArmAss]

Bizarre, because Valentine basically confirms he did say it back in August:

Then he volunteered a story about his exchange with Middlebrooks, which had gone unreported at the time and had not surfaced publicly until he brought it up. “Matter of fact, ownership did come and said they heard that when Will Middlebrooks made two errors in a game and he came off the field and into the dugout, I said, ‘Nice inning, Will,’ and maybe that upset him.’’’ Valentine said what ownership didn’t know is that after the game he’d gone to Middlebrooks and offered him reassurance.

In his pregame media session Thursday, Valentine laughed when asked about the fallout from the story. “It happened 2 1/2 months ago,’’ he said. “Most stupid thing I ever said … on a radio program. But it also was ridiculous for someone to repeat. I think that’s the point I was trying to make.’’

http://espn.go.com/b...r-said-on-radio

When I read the first line of this post I was really excited, because I thought maybe we had Valentine caught in a blatant lie (which would make me really happy - vengeful bastard that I am). But what it says is that ownership said they heard that he had said "Nice inning" - not that he had actually said it. Maybe that's why Corsi added the qualifier "basically".

I'd never be mistaken for a Valentine apologist - and it's all moot anyway, as his ass is grass - but with so much factual stuff to skewer him with, stretching seems unnecessary.

[rembrat]

Sigh. I'll regret this but can some one elaborate on the 3 envelopes. I wasn't watching.

[EvilEmpire]

What, so only nice guys get trashed on the way out of Boston? Where is Valentine's comeuppance? If any guy derserved such a thing...

[Jinhocho]

What, so only nice guys get trashed on the way out of Boston? Where is Valentine's comeuppance? If any guy derserved such a thing...

He is LL's guy and LL is the guy who trashes people...

[E5 Yaz]

Sigh. I'll regret this but can some one elaborate on the 3 envelopes. I wasn't watching.

Valentine tells a story about going into Francona's former office, opening a drawer and finding three envelopes left by Francona for the new manager. Inside the first envelope, he says, are instructions that if the team is struggling early, to blame Tito. In the second envelope, he says, are instructions that if the team is still struggling midseason, to blame the minor leagues. The third envelope, he says, is to be opened only at the end of the season if the team is still losing.
And what does it say? "Make out three envelopes,'' Valentine says.

http://espn.go.com/b...easant-exchange

[Andrew]

If that is true I love Francona even more than I did, which I didn't think was possible.

[Myt1]

It's not true, and is simply a new version of an old story about futility of the system. Russian, I think.

[shepard50]

Yeah, and it's "write three letters" anyway. My first Boss did this for me.

How do you write an envelope?

[E5 Yaz]

Evidently making light of reports that he had a non-disclosure clause in his contract that would prevent him from criticizing the team, Valentine said, “They’d kill me. If I ever say anything, they’d send out a hit man. They’d whack me, and it would be all over.”

[notfar]

Before I just wanted Bobby V to never be in the Sox dugout again. Now I want him to never be in Boston again. Get out. You are not welcome here anymore.

[YTF]

Am I the only one seeing this as Bobby's greatest contribution to the team? Can this and other things that will surely follow serve as the best piece of motivation and source of unity that this fuck off has ever given this franchise?

[wutang112878]

So the Ortiz comment is beyond ridiculous, and my immediate reaction was its just another Bobby cant help himself from saying these things comment. Now I am starting to wonder if its Bobbys brush-back pitch to the organization not to trash him, considering in this interview he recognizes he has a non-disclosure clause, then goes on to say something that is a negative for the organization to basically demonstrate 'hey I can still make things suck for you'

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

NY writer Jeff Pearlman (who I think is a pretty good writer) weighs in via Twitter last night re: Ortiz "faking" his injury:

@jeffpearlman: I have little doubt Bobby Valentine is telling the truth here

Aside from Cafardo, I'm actually surprised that there is anyone in the media who believes what Valentine says. Valentine is the baseball version of Donald Trump.

[Dick Pole Upside]

Not for nothing, but Brendan Rodgers (Liverpool manager) was just roasted for trying a variation of the 3 Envelopes story (each envelope contains the name of someone who will let the team down this season) on his team. Copied something done with notable effect by SAF twenty years previously.

http://www.dailymail...-team-down.html

Not only are Tito/BV copycats, but this is just another sign that J/W/H are distracted!!!

/CHB

P.S. JMOH: not that I've taken Pearlman's bait, but anyone that has ever injured their Achilles knows it is not a "one week and you're back to new" injury... for the average person a significant strain is a multiple months recovery. Obviously, for a rupture, it's 6 months+... I'm guessing Papi is somewhere in between but there's no doubt in my mind that this was a legit injury.

edit: speling

Edited by Dick Pole Upside, 24 October 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[smastroyin]

Tito didn't make out letters/envelopes or tell the joke - BV made up the entire story for the sake of that joke.

[PaulinMyrBch]

Tito didn't make out letters/envelopes or tell the joke - BV made up the entire story for the sake of that joke.

That is correct. Bobby V told the story during that interview they did together on the Baseball Tonight set.

Edited by PaulinMyrBch, 24 October 2012 - 07:32 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

NY writer Jeff Pearlman (who I think is a pretty good writer) weighs in via Twitter last night re: Ortiz "faking" his injury:



Aside from Cafardo, I'm actually surprised that there is anyone in the media who believes what Valentine says. Valentine is the baseball version of Donald Trump.

Again, it's total fucking bullshit. Ortiz was badly limping around the bases in the last game he played this year. I was there, I saw it, it was obvious. He "legged" out a double and looked like body parts would start flying off of him at any moment. His injury was real and severe and only an idiot like Bobby V thinks otherwise. He certainly appeared to be at risk to have his Achilles rupture and roll up, LeRon Landry-style.

I was happy enough to get this maniac away from the team, but now I want him homeless and living under a bridge at the bare minimum. Nothing's ever his fault.

[The Boomer]

Am I the only one seeing this as Bobby's greatest contribution to the team? Can this and other things that will surely follow serve as the best piece of motivation and source of unity that this fuck off has ever given this franchise?

His greatest contribution might be more long term than any short term motivated unity that will only take them but so far in 2013 with a lessened level of talent. BV's terribleness was, if management makes the right choices, arguably a blessing in disguise. If the team hadn't tanked so badly, Cherington would have never started the needed rebuild by dumping those albatross salaries that landed on the Dodgers. It's hard to see their total recovery in the single upcoming season but, if they make mostly the right moves, they are already a step ahead in terms of their long term future than that Yankees franchise still mainly made up of those aging and infirm players.

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

P.S. JMOH: not that I've taken Pearlman's bait, but anyone that has ever injured their Achilles knows it is not a "one week and your back to new" injury... for the average person a significant strain is a multiple months recovery. Obviously, for a rupture, it's 6 months+... I'm guessing Papi is somewhere in between but there's no doubt in my mind that this was a legit injury.

DPU, for the record, I wasn't agreeing with Pearlman. In fact, I did take the bait and tweeted him back asking if he was serious and asked him to give any example of Ortiz jaking an injury. Because you're 100% right, a ruptured Achilles isn't an "owwie", it's a pretty significant injury, especially for a baseball player. And like SJH said (who was there at the game), Ortiz was obviously injured this wasn't a vacation for him.

And logically, why would he fake an injury in a contract year? Especially since he was pretty much carrying the Red Sox offense and was in line for a big deal? How does that pass the smell test?

[JimD]

His greatest contribution might be more long term than any short term motivated unity that will only take them but so far in 2013 with a lessened level of talent. BV's terribleness was, if management makes the right choices, arguably a blessing in disguise. If the team hadn't tanked so badly, Cherington would have never started the needed rebuild by dumping those albatross salaries that landed on the Dodgers. It's hard to see their total recovery in the single upcoming season but, if they make mostly the right moves, they are already a step ahead in terms of their long term future than that Yankees franchise still mainly made up of those aging and infirm players.

Valentine's trainwreck of a season also undoubtedly gives Cherington some much-needed breathing room in the offices at Yawkey Way. Ben still needs to prove he is a worthy successor to Theo Epstein, but he should be given latitude to prove himself without being micromanaged by LL.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Rob Bradford with a point by point rebuttal of Valentine's statements.

Valentine to Costas: “David Ortiz came back after spending about six weeks on the disabled list and we thought it was only going to be a week. He got two hits the first two times up, drove in a couple runs; we were off to the races. Then he realized that this trade meant that we’re not going to run this race and we’re not even going to finish the race properly and he decided not to play anymore. I think at that time it was all downhill from there.”

Here's the reality, one which Valentine, of all people should have remembered: When Ortiz came back from his injury for that August 24 game, he was far from healed. In fact, some put him at barely 75 percent, which was evident when watching the designated hitter run the bases during those two hits Valentine referenced. Ortiz was getting frustrated with not being able to contribute to what was a 60-66 team at the time, and demanded to play. Two weeks later, when the Red Sox were 63-76, the DH was still limping. But rather than conceding that his season was over, he sought a form of treatment -- a plasma-rich platelet injection -- in late-August with the hope that he could return, saving the more traumatic shockwave therapy (which would have been a season-ender) until after the conclusion of the year.

What made Valentine's comments even more tough to stomach was, by all accounts, Ortiz was one player who routinely stood up for Valentine in the midst of teammates' criticism. It was a tact that didn't go unnoticed by Valentine until, evidently, he sat across from Costas.

Bobby Valentine is a lying sack of shit.

[glennhoffmania]

I'm shocked it took this long for Bobby to start throwing people under the bus. Lying sack of shit is too nice of a description for him.

As an aside, does anyone really still pay attention to Costas?

[Ted Cox 4 president]

Is there a Valentine jersey someone can drive a wooden stake through?

Costas was looking extremely creepy during the Olympics--dyed hair, Botoxed face.

* shudder *

[opes]

I'm shocked it took this long for Bobby to start throwing people under the bus. Lying sack of shit is too nice of a description for him.

As an aside, does anyone really still pay attention to Costas?

I dunno, he really piled it on Sandusky during his interview.

[glennhoffmania]

I dunno, he really piled it on Sandusky during his interview.

I'm not saying that he doesn't ask any good questions when he gets a chance. I just don't find him at all interesting and I think he comes off as an arrogant douche.

Just to clarify, I was talking about Costas, but that description could also apply to Valentine.

[xpisblack]

Considerable evidence would point to the latter

Oh, I don't know about his being just an idiot. He certainly is an idiot, but he's so much more. He's also an incompetent failure, an inveterate liar, an unapologetic wastrel and loser, an attention-whoring smarm-nozzle, a boorish ballbag with all the grace of a faex-flinging siamang infected by tertiary neurosyphilis. He's a burnt-effigy in waiting, and he's a classless toerag who in a right world would be deemed a toxic mess, isolated, and ignored for the rest of his terrible, brief life.

He's lots of things, not just an idiot.

[ToeKneeArmAss]

The highlight of the interview for me was Bobby's revelation that he's aware of his incredible lack of self-awareness. At the age of 62 he's finally realized that what you say and how you say it matter - and that he's totally inept in this domain. He admits this in the interview - how he's sometimes short with people just out of distraction or whatever, and they take it the wrong way. He's just clueless how he comes across and practically said that to Costas.

As a case in point, I'll bet this entire brouhaha that he's brought upon himself through the Ortiz comment will come as a total surprise to him. In his mind, he's just recounting facts - trade made, season lost, DO comes back, can't go full out, realizes the futility in pushing it, and shuts it down. I'll bet he had no clue as the words left his mouth that they could (and would) be construed as throwing David under the bus.

[sachilles]

As a case in point, I'll bet this entire brouhaha that he's brought upon himself through the Ortiz comment will come as a total surprise to him. In his mind, he's just recounting facts - trade made, season lost, DO comes back, can't go full out, realizes the futility in pushing it, and shuts it down. I'll bet he had no clue as the words left his mouth that they could (and would) be construed as throwing David under the bus.

I think you are spot on in this. He doesn't have that filter other folks do. I don't think he's like a Guillien who intentional inflames situations. I simply think Bobby V is not self aware enough to keep quiet when that is the best course of action. That is why there was always an apology. He's direct and speaks what is in his head at that very second. Some that stuff can slide by the wayside in a smaller market, or perhaps in a time when social media wasn't so present.

[Marbleheader]

Rob Bradford with a point by point rebuttal of Valentine's statements.



Bobby Valentine is a lying sack of shit.

I honestly think he lies so much he can't remember what actually happened vs. what he said happened. He's completely delusional.

[zenter]

I honestly think he lies so much he can't remember what actually happened vs. what he said happened. He's completely delusional.

I prefer the conspiracy angle: Benny C and owners 3 are paying Valentine (he's under contract for another year and who knows if he got a severance package on top of that) to take a bullet for the team. I know this is 99.9999% unlikely, but how fun a strategic masterstroke would it be? It allows the team to dismantle, pull players together, hire the real manager candidate, shift priorities, and come out looking mostly-good in the end.

[someoneanywhere]

I honestly think he lies so much he can't remember what actually happened vs. what he said happened. He's completely delusional.

Well, if you're going to be a knucklefuckit, I guess it's best to be physically and emotionally into it.

As he so clearly is.

[ToeKneeArmAss]

I prefer the conspiracy angle: Benny C and owners 3 are paying Valentine (he's under contract for another year and who knows if he got a severance package on top of that) to take a bullet for the team. I know this is 99.9999% unlikely, but how fun a strategic masterstroke would it be? It allows the team to dismantle, pull players together, hire the real manager candidate, shift priorities, and come out looking mostly-good in the end.

OMG - do you think the Dodgers were in on it too???

C'mon ....

[zenter]

OMG - do you think the Dodgers were in on it too???

C'mon ....

Yes, I'm being totally serious. And not at all having fun with crazy Valentine-esque conspiracies. I totally didn't post that to introduce "Benny C and the owners 3" to the lexicon. Not at all.

[Tim Naehrings Girl]

Bobby V on Dan Lebatard's local show in South Florida right now and he is saying that he never said that Ortiz quit on the team and it is the media stirring the pot. He said that Ortiz decided after the trade not to take the chance of ruining his career when it was clear they weren't going anywhere this season and Bobby V completely agreed with the decision.

[JimBoSox9]

That is just SO classic Bobby. Why is everyone paying attention to what he said instead of what he meant??

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Bobby V on Dan Lebatard's local show in South Florida right now and he is saying that he never said that Ortiz quit on the team and it is the media stirring the pot. He said that Ortiz decided after the trade not to take the chance of ruining his career when it was clear they weren't going anywhere this season and Bobby V completely agreed with the decision.

He's such a goddamn liar. I went back and re-read the quote he said to Costas and there's nothing in there to indicate that Valentine meant to say he agreed with the decision. Quite the contrary, the phrase "David decided not to play any more" is a clear indication that Valentine thought Ortiz could keep playing but decided to stop.

We find out a lot about the character of people when things are going rough for them. We're certainly finding out a lot about Valentine's character now. He has none.

[PaulinMyrBch]

So Bobby is using the I was misquoted line on a taped TV interview.

I bet he's wondering how a planned lob ball interview could go so wrong. Umm, you're the constant Bobby.

[redsoxstiff]

I stood with BOOBY and prayed for Ausmus...

No one leaves Boston with out a long trail of shitpaper bringing up the rear pun intended...

I am sure that there isn't a single soul in Redsoxland outside of V's family can hear,read or see anything but the devil incarnate in this 62 year old ex manager...

I'm sick to death of the Punch and Judy show in Fenway...

I am very sure that for now the comfy hole has been expanded to hold a rather large newbie Manager...

[Harry Hooper]

We find out a lot about the character of people when things are going rough for them. We're certainly finding out a lot about Valentine's character now. He has none.

Something that was known by just about everyone except "the smartest guys in the room," who just had to have their man.

[YTF]

I honestly think he lies so much he can't remember what actually happened vs. what he said happened. He's completely delusional.

I honestly think the guy just doesn't give a shit, says whatever the fuck he wants and if it sticks, fine. If it doesn't, he was misquoted, uninformed or perhaps should have phrased things differently or says he was wrong and offers a lame apology. That's his out, that who he is. Throw something out there, see if the public buys it, if not then go to one of his standard cop outs. Either way it doesn't matter to him as he gets the attention that he seems to crave. We all knew THAT kid in school growing up. You know.........any attention is good attention. That's who Bobby is.

[InstantKarmma]

I totally didn't post that to introduce "Benny C and the owners 3" to the lexicon.

I like you Zen, but I hope that one dies on the vine.

[Rough Carrigan]

I dunno, he really piled it on Sandusky during his interview.

He had to. At his height and with all the aggressive plastic surgery, he was probably worried that Sandusky would go after a little chestnut haired boy.

[ToeKneeArmAss]

Something that was known by just about everyone except "the smartest guys in the room," who just had to have their man.

This exactly. This is the scariest thing about the Valentine hiring.

That a bunch of never-seen-the-sun, basement-dwelling, computer-gazing, mouth-breathers like us could be so right about how wrong that hiring was - and that the people who are paid - handsomely, and with our money - to make those decisions could be so wrong about how right it was.

(To be fair, while I recall there was some support for the BV hiring on this board, and some wait-and-see'ers, my sense was that the significant majority sentiment was "WTF???")

[Manramsclan]

The best possible end to all this would be that these comments violate the "non-disparagement" clause in his contract and he is $2.5 Million lighter in his wallet.

He is a bloviating idiot, and the wind that comes from his mouth should be taken as just that.

[SoxScout]

http://goo.gl/V9ROl

BOSTON -- Tim Bogar, former Boston Red Sox manager Bobby Valentine's bench coach, shot back Wednesday at Valentine's contention that Valentine felt undermined by his coaching staff, and Bogar offered his perspective on the dismal 2012 season.

"I'm not upset about him or anything he says, but what bothers me is the perception of me and the other coaches is completely wrong," Bogar told ESPNBoston.com. "That bothers me because of what the coaches went through this year and what we dealt with. I did exactly what (general manager) Ben (Cherington) asked me to do. I'm not saying I did everything perfect because I didn't and I know that."

"The coaching staff was prepared to do everything that we were supposed to do to help Bobby succeed," Bogar said, "but not once did he portray what he wanted us to do to help him and eventually he shut some of us out completely."

"You don't know how many times these guys would come and talk to me about stuff," Bogar said. "The last couple of times I've read stuff about that there was no communication or the communication was bad; the only bad communication was between Bobby and everyone. The rest of the communication was great. I talked to the players daily about stuff. We talked about everything. The coaches talked about everything."

According to numerous team sources, Valentine resented the fact that the players often spoke with the coaching staff and not directly with him.

"To me, Bogey was that calming voice that was always thinking baseball," Red Sox second baseman Dustin Pedroia told ESPNBoston.com on Wednesday. "He was trying to put us in the best situation to succeed, whether that was base running, defensive positioning or just mentioning to calm down at the plate. And his timing was always right on. He's a very smart, no-nonsense guy, which you appreciate."

Edited by SoxScout, 24 October 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Maybe the most surprising thing about all these reports is how predictable they are. Every story is about how Bobby couldn't say what he meant, said things he didn't mean, and generally wasn't understood by anyone.

Leaders of men don't have problems making themselves understood.

[glennhoffmania]

I'm glad that Bogar spoke up. Unless Bobby is too stupid to know that he's completely full of shit, he must realize that if he keeps taking verbal dumps on people eventually some of them may start to fight back and tell everyone what really did happen. It's depressing that anyone in the FO thought that this guy could possibly be a competent manager.

[xpisblack]

I'm sick to death of the Punch and Judy show in Fenway...

Fuck that. Punch and Judy shows are sometimes entertaining, usually worth the price of admission, and only 30% as creepy as watching the Boba Valentine (may rabid ocelots violate his every orifice) show.

That said, the mendacious slumbitch does sound a bit like like he's swallowed a swatchel sideways, unless someone crammed it so far up his ass it got lodged in his throat.

[reggiecleveland]

Fuck that. Punch and Judy shows are sometimes entertaining, usually worth the price of admission, and only 30% as creepy as watching the Boba Valentine (may rabid ocelots violate his every orifice) show.

That said, the mendacious slumbitch does sound a bit like like he's swallowed a swatchel sideways, unless someone crammed it so far up his ass it got lodged in his throat.

Thanks for elevating the conversation.