67 replies to this topic

[wutang112878]

If we look at it from Toronto's perspective, how much bargaining power do they really have here? They have a manager who hasn't performed well (both in terms of record and clubhouse issues) on the last year of his contract. If they really valued Farrell like we seem to, they'd have offered him a contract extension by now. They haven't done this and by negotiating with the Red Sox are showing Farrell that he may not be in their long-term plans. They've often stated that they don't allow interviews and moves to a new team for lateral moves, yet they're talking with us about letting their head coach do just that, within the division, no less.

I agree with all the points you made about Toronto and Farrell, but a few additions. Simply because they have Farrell under contract, and they dont seem to be in a big rush to sort out their manager situation they can make the RedSox wait. Meanwhile, Ben went on record saying he didnt want the manager situation to take a long time to sort out, and the media is starting to put some heat on the RedSox to get it resolved. So, Toronto could basically make the RedSox wait and sweat to try to gain some leverage. At which point the RedSox could just say screw it and hire one of the guys they have interviewed. Basically, both sides have enough options to have a little game of chicken.

[twothousandone]

I don't think the comparison to Lugo works. Farrell was here for five years; the strong feelings towards him are based on real, first hand knowledge. I agree that there are concerns based on his Toronto experience, but why is someone with no experience and no ties here preferable? Farrell seems to have universal support of management, that's a hell of a start.

So, the comparison is Bill Belichick?

[OnWisc]

MLB is not excited about having news compete with post-season play, especially the World Series, so I'd be surprised if there was any announcement regarding a trade for Farrell before the series is completed. If the trade involves a major-league player it can't be done (except as a handshake) until the trading period opens after the World Series ends.

That said, I still think it is silly for a rebuilding club to spend assets on a manager as there may be better things to do with them. But, suppose they actually do get Farrell and he bombs. What then? I cannot see him accepting a one-year contract, so they would be faced with paying another manager they don't want. How many times will people like Ausmus, et al., be willing to interview and be turned down for the job. They should have had a manager already, which would give time to get new coaches before the free agency/trading period opens.

My fear is that the front office/owners will decide they need to make a 'blockbuster' deal to help restore the fans' faith and they will end up with someone who really does not fit, weakening the existing roster and/or decimating the farm system.

I think if a deal gets done, it'll just be announced and gotten out of the way. This isn't as big of a deal as the architect (perceived or actual) of the Red Sox WS titles moving to the other iconic ballclub most associated with a Series drought. It's just a manager with a poor record maybe moving from a last place team to a second to last place team. Given that the Sox have already wrapped up interviews with the other candidates, failure to announce anything through the end of the World Series would indicate that the Sox had indeed set their sights on Farrell, and the speculation over what the compensation might be and whether they had been upfront with Wallach, Ausmus, etc. would be more distracting than any actual announcement.

Given the caliber of player Ben should be willing to surrender, any news of Farrell emerging as the next Red Sox manager should be of little interest to anyone aside from Sox and Jays fans.

Edited by OnWisc, 19 October 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[ScubaSteveAvery]

What do you see as functional right now?

First, they've already interviewed a promising batch of managers. At least they aren't calling up Torre or LaRussa. And second, they are negotiating for compensation before the interview takes place, which is the opposite of last year, and a much better way of handling things. At the very least, it shows that they learned from letting Theo interview, then negotiating afterwards. It avoids a circus after all the cards have settled.

I don't know the reasons for the Farrell infatuation, and I like Wallach the best out of all the candidates, but Farrell already had success in Boston before he left. Furthermore, he would have the full support of the front office, and its possible that he just isn't a good fit in Toronto, leading to poor results. Just because they are still very interested in somebody who was great here, but achieved poorly elsewhere, doesn't mean this is Bobby V redux.

Edited by ScubaSteveAvery, 19 October 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

It's just a manager with a poor record maybe moving from a last place team to a second to last place team.

I empathize with the strong impulse toward denial that made you get this backwards.

But yeah, I think you're basically right. This is not like Boras announcing A-Rod's opt-out with a few outs left in Game 4 in 2007. If they announce it during the Series run-up next week, or even on one of the Series off-days, I can't imagine MLB would take exception.

[Dick Pole Upside]

There will be a window between the NLCS and WS when an announcement can be made. If the Cards close things out tonight, that will leave Saturday - Tuesday for a Boston manager announcement that wouldn't "interfere" with the WS. Once the WS begins, we'll likely be waiting until its completion.

Attempting to be less hyperbolic, Farrell would be a good pitching coach... nothing to suggest he's a good manager. Hale as bench coach (in-game strategy, communication with players, planner of Spring Training/practices, etc.) has broader responsibility and impact in his coaching role than Farrell did when he was pitching coach. Hale > Farrell, imo. Also Ausmus and Wallach > Farrell.

[OnWisc]

First, they've already interviewed a promising batch of managers. At least they aren't calling up Torre or LaRussa. And second, they are negotiating for compensation before the interview takes place, which is the opposite of last year, and a much better way of handling things. At the very least, it shows that they learned from letting Theo interview, then negotiating afterwards. It avoids a circus after all the cards have settled.

I don't disagree at this point, but if they're still negotiating compensation come Tuesday morning, then I think dysfunctional once again becomes a pretty apt term. These discussions should have started no later than the moment Bobby's dismissal became offical. The fact that they're still ongoing at the moment isn't a huge concern given Toronto's reasonable desire to get the best deal possible and the fact that the Sox didn't begin conducting interviews until this week. But now that the Sox are on the clock with their other candidates, the window for coming to an agreement on Farrell comp before we once again reach sh!tshow status is closing rapidly.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Farrell was a good pitching coach, but don't forget that he had a 5+ year stint as the Indians director of player development, too. His experience is pretty diverse and strong. I agree that there's a chance his best role is as pitching coach, but the Sox have thought highly of him for a long, long time....and there was speculation he'd be a future manager or even GM of the team long before Tito left. The Sox wanting to hire him seems like something they've always wanted to do, not some knee jerk reaction to a season gone wrong.

[Bergs]

Farrell was a good pitching coach, but don't forget that he had a 5+ year stint as the Indians director of player development, too. His experience is pretty diverse and strong. I agree that there's a chance his best role is as pitching coach, but the Sox have thought highly of him for a long, long time....and there was speculation he'd be a future manager or even GM of the team long before Tito left. The Sox wanting to hire him seems like something they've always wanted to do, not some knee jerk reaction to a season gone wrong.

Agreed...to piggyback on this, had Bobby the Fifth not been such an unmitigated disaster, his 2-year deal was set up perfectly to simply hire Farrell at the end of his current deal with Toronto.

[941827]

This is over-analyzed. Is anyone really all that impressed with Leyland, Girardi, Matheny, or Bochy???

On a team built around its starting pitching, Bochy had the guy who was his best or second-best starter going into the year turn into the worst starter in the majors who qualified for the ERA title (Lincecum), had his best starter start to decline after throwing a perfect game (Cain), had his fourth starter turn into a pumpkin the second half of the year (Vogelsong), and managed to maintain good enough relations with his fifth starter (ZIto) that the guy had a bounce-back year after a number of awful ones (including 2010, when Bochy left him off the playoff roster). He kept the bullpen effective despite having to use it frequently and despite losing his closer at the start of the year (and, by the way, more or less doing closer-by-committee without telling anyone that's what he was doing). He also kept relatively quiet, and effectively dealt with, the fact that Lincecum and Zito dislike Posey so much that they refuse to pitch to him unless it's essential that they do so. I'd bet my bottom dollar that the Giants would not have qualified for the playoffs this year if Bobby V had been managing them.

[The Gray Eagle]

Yeah, I'd be extremely happy if the Red Sox could have Bochy or Leyland as manager. And Matheny has been pretty impressive too so far, even though it's early. Bochy and Leyland have great reputations and their players perform for them. (So far, the same with Matheny too, we'll see how that goes in the long run, but he's off to a great start.)

Every one of those guys has already done more as a manager than anyone on the Red Sox list. Doesn't mean that we don't have good candidates, but it means that we shouldn't be turning our noses up at managers that have done good jobs. Our team hired Bobby Valentine less than a year ago, so I wouldn't be talking about how "unimpressive" these other guys are.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

On a team built around its starting pitching, Bochy had the guy who was his best or second-best starter going into the year turn into the worst starter in the majors who qualified for the ERA title (Lincecum), had his best starter start to decline after throwing a perfect game (Cain), had his fourth starter turn into a pumpkin the second half of the year (Vogelsong), and managed to maintain good enough relations with his fifth starter (ZIto) that the guy had a bounce-back year after a number of awful ones (including 2010, when Bochy left him off the playoff roster). He kept the bullpen effective despite having to use it frequently and despite losing his closer at the start of the year (and, by the way, more or less doing closer-by-committee without telling anyone that's what he was doing). He also kept relatively quiet, and effectively dealt with, the fact that Lincecum and Zito dislike Posey so much that they refuse to pitch to him unless it's essential that they do so. I'd bet my bottom dollar that the Giants would not have qualified for the playoffs this year if Bobby V had been managing them.

One other thing about Bochy is that he manages his team like its the playoffs starting in July. He typically has a quick hook and doesn't discriminate in using it if he feels games are getting out of hand. He is also pretty aggressive about using his bench and will do so early if he deems it necessary. Playoff Tito is your frame of reference.

I would be entirely thrilled if the Sox managed to get a manager like Bochy. Imho, he is one of the best in the game.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

One other thing about Bochy is that he manages his team like its the playoffs starting in July. He typically has a quick hook and doesn't discriminate in using it if he feels games are getting out of hand. He is also pretty aggressive about using his bench and will do so early if he deems it necessary. Playoff Tito is your frame of reference.

I would be entirely thrilled if the Sox managed to get a manager like Bochy. Imho, he is one of the best in the game.

He's also managed exclusively in the National League where aggressive use of the bench comes a bit more with the territory considering the pitcher hitting and the use of double-switches. Typically, NL rosters are constructed with that in mind. It's not so much the case with 12-man pitching staffs and a full-time DH spot leaving a manager with, at best, 4 bench players during a given game.

There's a reason we only saw Playoff Tito during the playoffs. I would imagine Bochy would quickly conform were he to move to an AL team, particularly the Red Sox.

[JimD]

So, the comparison is Bill Belichick?

The Belichick comp is a good one - he made a lasting impression on Bob Kraft during his one year in Foxboro as assistant head coach, and his stint at the helm of the Browns was roundly panned by almost everyone.

The perceived negatives about Farrell have been laid out here, but there are positives to consider. He would come in with the full backing of all of the key figures in ownership and management - there will no opportunity for players to seek to undermine him by going around his back to the GM. He would have a cadre of veteran players in the clubhouse from day 1 who should also have his back. His strong relationship with Cherington means he would have input on roster decisions. His past experience in player development should pay dividends as the Sox bring up younger players from the farm. He knows the media in this town and will likely have a few allies. And the Red Sox are at such a low point right now, and fan frustration and/or apathy so deep, there's almost no place to go but up and any success he brings will buy him goodwill.

Perhaps most importantly to me, I believe that there is tremendous value in hiring someone who has already made their mistakes in their first managing stint elsewhere. I understand that some of what we are hearing about Farrell’s Toronto experience can give cause of concern and I don’t dismiss those worries, but I also don’t believe that these by themselves should consign his candidacy to the scrap heap. Many people in all walks of life go into their first experience in a managerial position convinced that they’ve learned all the lessons they need as a subordinate and certain that they are going to be the best manager ever, only to be smacked upside the head by the challenge of being responsible for everything and some of the stupid s*** you have to deal with as a boss. If Farrell is half as intelligent as we’ve been led to believe, I think he will learn from this and his next managing stint is going to be more successful than his first one just based on what he went through with the Jays.

In any event, I feel somewhat better about the future based on the lack of a circus surrounding this year’s search and the names involved. I would have no serious heartburn should any of the four candidates interviewed thus far be hired as the next Sox skipper.

Edited by JimD, 19 October 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[redsoxstiff]

The Bellycheck comp is overly simplified,IMHO...

I agree with the last para completely

[Corsi]

The odds of John Farrell being the next Red Sox manager appear to be improving.

Despite claiming to not be privy to the ongoing discussions between the Sox and Blue Jays, one industry source with a link to the Jays said this morning that his gut feeling is Farrell will be “gone” from Toronto, with the teams ultimately agreeing on compensation to free the manager from the final year of his contract.

Ultimately, it still will come down to how much the Red Sox are willing to give up to lure Farrell. And a major league executive from a National League team reiterated this week that Jays president Paul Beeston will let Farrell go only if Toronto receives at least one “decent player” in return, suggesting that the player likely would have to be an immediate contributor to the 25-man roster because of the “repercussions” involved in allowing a manager to flee to a division rival.

http://www.bostonher...getting-closer/

[The Boomer]

http://www.bostonher...getting-closer/[/size][/font][/color]

I hope what the Jays ask for in compensaton will make the Sox walk away. They would simply turn around and interview just about everyone the Sox spoke with so far and maybe selct who the Sox should go after in the first place. Based on pure intelligence, Ausmus looks to be unique. His long and successful career in the majors made teamates (and others) his fans. While Farrell is more of a known quantity to management, this makes him suspect for me because their judgment (starting at the end of Theo's watch) has been questionable. Rebooting their roster needed to be done. Rebooting their manager is IMO a good thing too. Cherington is kind of like Obama. Does he deserve more time to fix nasty problems he inherited that he didn't cause or doesn't he? Farrell is kind of like Romney. Will he bring the franchise back to its glory days or, despite the surface appearance that he will just go back to policies that led to the trouble in the first place, is he capable of making things better? You folks in MA (I moved away after HS 41 years ago) should have better insight into both comparisons. Cherington and Ausmus seem like the way to go to me but what do I know?

Edited by The Boomer, 19 October 2012 - 04:39 PM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

The odds of John Farrell being the next Red Sox manager appear to be improving.

....Jays president Paul Beeston will let Farrell go only if Toronto receives at least one “decent player” in return, suggesting that the player likely would have to be an immediate contributor to the 25-man roster

Depending on exactly what is meant by a "decent player," the juxtaposition of these two statements is pretty depressing.