297 replies to this topic

[Yaz4Ever]

Would Hamilton to SEA and TEX somehow outbidding LAD (or Greinke taking less to play there) open an Ellsbury for Andrus or Holland situation?

[bosockboy]

Would Hamilton to SEA and TEX somehow outbidding LAD (or Greinke taking less to play there) open an Ellsbury for Andrus or Holland situation?

I would think Ellsbury being moved would be predicated on us getting Hamilton. That would leave RF open again.

[Yaz4Ever]

Not if holland took Lester's spot and we got myers

[Savin Hillbilly]

\They could pretty easily absorb Gomes' deal as a supersub. That's the real advantage of all this new found financial flexibility. As long as we keep guys on shorter deals we can splash the pot for a role player to give extra depth.

OK. I guess one of my problems with your reasoning is that I really don't want Gomes playing 1B. From what I've seen and heard of his OF play, it seems like he'd be a real butcher on fielding short hops etc. Really, he's a DH, but if you don't have a DH slot open, you stick him in the OF because that's where his profound defensive incompetence will bite you least often. He's not the kind of guy you can slide to 1B because he's reasonably coordinated but just slow.

And I think Exhibit A for my thesis is the fact that he has reached the age of 32 and made nearly a thousand big-league starts without playing a single inning at first base, despite being a conspicuously poor defensive OF.

[Drek717]

OK. I guess one of my problems with your reasoning is that I really don't want Gomes playing 1B. From what I've seen and heard of his OF play, it seems like he'd be a real butcher on fielding short hops etc. Really, he's a DH, but if you don't have a DH slot open, you stick him in the OF because that's where his profound defensive incompetence will bite you least often. He's not the kind of guy you can slide to 1B because he's reasonably coordinated but just slow.

And I think Exhibit A for my thesis is the fact that he has reached the age of 32 and made nearly a thousand big-league starts without playing a single inning at first base, despite being a conspicuously poor defensive OF.

If you look at his UZR breakdown on fangraphs his big negative is entirely a product of his range scores, his arm and error ratings are pretty much zero with very few deviations of more than a point or two either way year to year.

As for why he's never grabbed a 1B mit before, I'd say his incredibly lopsided split is a big part as to why no one has tried him out there. Who platoons first basemen? Maybe Gomes at 1B wouldn't work, but if the Sox believed that and still wanted to go for the same kind of setup they could just as easily go after Swisher again who can step into 1B, opening up more LF starts for Gomes.

[redsoxstiff]

I still like Hamiltron,even if the cost gives me indigestion for at least the first year...

Comparinfg Swisher and Hamilton Ben has to determine whether Hamilton's draw and ability will ofset Swisher's smaller contract and his ability to play first....

If thay trade Ellsbury as part of a deal ffor a #1 quality SP then the estimated reduction in cost can be laid at the feet of whichever trade was made...

[Savin Hillbilly]

I still like Hamiltron,even if the cost gives me indigestion for at least the first year...

A robot version would have some obvious advantages, certainly.

[Captaincoop]

A robot version would have some obvious advantages, certainly.

I'm all in favor of signing Hamiltron 2.0, with the addictions bug eliminated. Was that what we were voting on?

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

Hamilton signing with Seattle out of nowhere on Thursday would have nothing to do with this:

The crowds of happy people lighting joints under Seattle's Space Needle early Thursday morning with nary a police officer in sight bespoke the new reality: Marijuana is legal under Washington state law.

Hundreds gathered at Seattle Center for a New Year's Eve-style countdown to 12 a.m., when the legalization measure passed by voters last month took effect. When the clock struck, they cheered and sparked up in unison.

http://www.oregonliv..._medium=twitter

Edited by The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa, 06 December 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[Stuart Scott's Lazy Eye]

Hamilton signing with Seattle out of nowhere on Thursday would have nothing to do with this:



http://www.oregonliv..._medium=twitter

uh, no.

Hamilton, 29, a leading candidate for the American League Most Valuable Player award, has produced one hit in eight World Series at-bats. His timing has been slightly off, but his sense of the absurd is as sharp as ever.
After going 0 for 4 with a walk in the first game, Hamilton laughed about being assaulted in center field by the pungent aroma of marijuana wafting down from the stands.
“It was crazy,” he said.
Asked whether the smell triggered any yearnings or flashbacks, Hamilton said it did not. “That wasn’t my drug of choice,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

[Cellar-Door]

I'm all in favor of signing Hamiltron 2.0, with the addictions bug eliminated. Was that what we were voting on?

I'd be more interested if it had new knees.

[SoxScout]

Ken_Rosenthal: Sources: #Mariners have discussed three-year deals with Hamilton in range of $20M to $25M per season.

Wow, is that really going to get it done? I figured the Sox would offer something like 3 years, 85 million.

[BoSoxFink]

@Ken_Rosenthal: Sources: #Mariners have discussed three-year deals with Hamilton in range of $20M to $25M per season.

If that is seriously the deal he is leaning towards the Red Sox should be all over this! I would take Hamilton for that in a heartbeat. Hell I would give him 3 years between 27-30 per if that would get it done

[Corsi]

Heyman:

#redsox are very unlikely on hamilton. #mariners, however, are said "real" players for JH

https://twitter.com/...805149362630657

[Jed Zeppelin]

Wow, is that really going to get it done? I figured the Sox would offer something like 3 years, 85 million.

I have never been too keen on the idea of signing Hamilton, but even I would be seriously disappointed in the FO if a deal in that range gets it done with the RS watching from the sidelines.

[pokey_reese]

I would assume that the Sox are dropping out of the Hamilton race (if Heyman is correct) not because of the price, which is more than reasonable, but because they couldn't get fair value back for Ellsbury and don't want to make Gomes a bench player?

I don't know, seems like a wasted opportunity to me unless they have something else up their sleeves. Hamilton for 3 years, at basically any cost/per, seems like a dream come true.

[snowmanny]

It's hard to imagine what the Red Sox were meeting with Hamilton about if 3/70 is out of their range.

[glennhoffmania]

I have never been too keen on the idea of signing Hamilton, but even I would be seriously disappointed in the FO if a deal in that range gets it done with the RS watching from the sidelines.

It made me wonder if there's another big deal brewing and a $27m-30m AAV would cause a luxury tax issue.

[Jed Zeppelin]

It made me wonder if there's another big deal brewing and a $27m-30m AAV would cause a luxury tax issue.

Of course, for all we really know, the M's 3 year offers are out there so they can go back to Seattle and say "hey we really, really tried" while such a deal might be unrealistic (which would jibe with the Red Sox being unlikely to land him).

Edited by Jed Zeppelin, 06 December 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Cellar-Door]

It's hard to imagine what the Red Sox were meeting with Hamilton about if 3/70 is out of their range.

Or maybe Hamilton doesn't want to play in Boston?

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

As Trautwein's Degree said in the Rebuilding Thread, the FO may think getting a Hamilton doesn't make sense until the next crop of kids ripens and they're ready to shift into GFIN mode.

He may not prefer Boston.

The FO may not like his knees.

The FO may be wary of the addiction issues and emotional baggage.

They may prefer to save their sheckels to re-sign Ellsbury if the 2011 model shows up this year.

There are a lot of reasons not to sign him, actually.

Edited by P'tucket, rhymes with..., 06 December 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[allaboutthesox]

Heyman:https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/276805149362630657

Heyman only making it easier for the Sox in my opinion.

Ken_Rosenthal: Sources: #Mariners have discussed three-year deals with Hamilton in range of $20M to $25M per season.

I think this is fantastic news for the Sox. I think the Sox are smart not to get into a bidding war with anyone. Sox have the leverage as they have the money to spend. Let a team with less resources bring his cost down and then move in add more AAV to a 3-4 year deal. I would imagine that Hamilton's agent might come back to the Sox one last time and allow them a chance to beat any other teams best offer.

Boston offers the opportunity to win and has money to spend. Boston would be wise to "lay back in the cut" and allow the market to come to them. I would like to see Hamilton in a Sox uniform, but I understand the reservations some would have.

[RedOctober3829]

@alexspeier: Hazen says Sox remain engaged with Hamilton and plenty of other free agents, but will see where that goes. Team's core, he says, is youth
https://twitter.com/...847494510559233

[allaboutthesox]

@alexspeier: Hazen says Sox remain engaged with Hamilton and plenty of other free agents, but will see where that goes. Team's core, he says, is youth
https://twitter.com/...847494510559233

Core is youth but we just signed 3 players who are 32 years of age or older?

[JimBoSox9]

Core is youth but we just signed 3 players who are 32 years of age or older?

3/25 = 12%. And they're all short term contracts.

[Cellar-Door]

Core is youth but we just signed 3 players who are 32 years of age or older?

Not every player on a team is part of the core, in fact most aren't.
They added veterans on short deals, before they added the 5 signings (Uehara, Victorino, Ross, Gomes and Napoli) Ortiz, Lackey and Aceves were the only players 30 or older on the 40 man roster.

Edited by Cellar-Door, 06 December 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[catomatic]

Not every player on a team is part of the core, in fact most aren't.
They added veterans on short deals, before they added the 5 signings (Uehara, Victorino, Ross, Gomes and Napoli) Ortiz, Lackey and Aceves were the only players 30 or older on the 40 man roster.

This approach has Brian Sabean's fingerprints all over it...............

[Cellar-Door]

This approach has Brian Sabean's fingerprints all over it...............

You realize that the vast majority of free agents are 30+ right? If you sign free agents they are going to be in the 30-32 year old range.

[E5 Yaz]

This approach has Brian Sabean's fingerprints all over it...............

Probably not the best comparison to use

[TFisNEXT]

Core is youth but we just signed 3 players who are 32 years of age or older?

I imagine the Red Sox do not consider Napoli, Victorino, and Gomes their "core".

[someoneanywhere]

I feel like I've probably said this too much, or maybe it's just because it's come up in multiple threads. But: in an important way, these signings are about the protection of that young core, and an investment in that younger core. It's not not that the older guys are blocking the younger guys, or that the team is being built with these older guys as the engine-drivers. They are here to buy development time for the next wave. And they are here to re-invigorate a clubhouse culture that evidently had run toxic with selfishness and entitlement. You get a Gomes, you get a Victorino, you get a Napoli -- at those dollars, you have targeted them because you see them implanting a fundamental culture of winning baseball -- dirt-dog baseball -- that the younger core will hopefully internalize. The culture, ideally, lasts long after the geezer contracts are off the books.

I am not saying anyone has to agree with the signings, only that there is a significant investment in the character and culture issue here that these guys (and the dollars paid to them) represent.

[redsoxstiff]

I would assume that the Sox are dropping out of the Hamilton race (if Heyman is correct) not because of the price, which is more than reasonable, but because they couldn't get fair value back for Ellsbury and don't want to make Gomes a bench player?

I don't know, seems like a wasted opportunity to me unless they have something else up their sleeves. Hamilton for 3 years, at basically any cost/per, seems like a dream come true.

The impediment to signing Hamilton is fear of previous flops...aviodance isn't the solutrion but proper signings are...

Damn little would prevent Hamilton from signing...if he likes the package..we make him comfortable...

Edited by redsoxstiff, 07 December 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[TheRooster]

I'm shocked that there are so many Sox fans who'd rather watch Gomes/Kalish/other instead of Hamilton for the next 3-4 years. When it was going to take 6-8 years I wasn't interested, but if they can really get him for 4 years or less, I'm on board.

[glennhoffmania]

You knew this was going to happen, it was just a matter of when.

From USA Today's Bob Nightengale:

The #Yankees, but not GM Brian Cashman, quietly running background check on Josh Hamilton, rival GM says— Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) December 7, 2012

Signing Hamilton would go against the Yankees' recent trend of saving money to get under the coming luxury tax in 2014, but it does fit with the Yankees' free-spending ways from pretty much the rest of recorded history.

Link

Edited by glennhoffmania, 07 December 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

You knew this was going to happen, it was just a matter of when.



Link

1 year/$60M is going to be tough to turn down!

[Red(s)HawksFan]

You knew this was going to happen, it was just a matter of when.

Link

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING the MFY have done so far this off-season points to dropping their payroll in 2014. Have they even been rumored, let alone signed anybody to a contract for more than one season so far? The fact that it's someone other than Cashman (one of the Steinbrenners, Randy Levine?) that's initiating the investigations makes me think there's not a whole lot to it.

[glennhoffmania]

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING the MFY have done so far this off-season points to dropping their payroll in 2014. Have they even been rumored, let alone signed anybody to a contract for more than one season so far? The fact that it's someone other than Cashman (one of the Steinbrenners, Randy Levine?) that's initiating the investigations makes me think there's not a whole lot to it.

Every time we hear about NY lowering their payroll they never do. Maybe after losing ARod and missing out on a bunch of other potential targets they decided to blow their wad on one big name guy this year. Does anyone really expect them to do nothing this offseason?

[StuckOnYouk]

I don't see this happening. Yeah, maybe Levine would snoop around behind Cashman's back, but how can they do this while telling Cashman for the last few weeks to let players like Martin go for cheap and then drop a ton on Hamilton when they still have Cano to lock up next year

Maybe they're just making sure the Sox don't get him for cheap.

[MikeM]

I'm shocked that there are so many Sox fans who'd rather watch Gomes/Kalish/other instead of Hamilton for the next 3-4 years. When it was going to take 6-8 years I wasn't interested, but if they can really get him for 4 years or less, I'm on board.

When you have a projected lineup that looks to have Salty hitting out of the 5 hole, and a starting 5-9 which potentially could post a collective OBP that's dangerously close to the .300 mark, there's simply no real need there to add a Josh Hamilton on short year money.

Right?

Of course I'm still not 100% convinced this talk of Hamilton ending up with a 3-4 year deal has a realistic shot of playing out that way though. Somebody with visions of contention and the need to add an impact bat will flinch imo. That, or he resigns with Texas at an offer price he isn't interested in taking elsewhere.

[judyb]

I'm shocked that there are so many Sox fans who'd rather watch Gomes/Kalish/other instead of Hamilton for the next 3-4 years. When it was going to take 6-8 years I wasn't interested, but if they can really get him for 4 years or less, I'm on board.

And I'm shocked that there are so many Red Sox fans who are not imagining the absolute worst case scenario of what could happen if they sign Hamilton after what we've seen the last few years. I'm not actually ready to assume that if they did sign him, we'd actually get to watch him play instead of ending up watching almost as much Gomes/Kalish/other for 3 or 4 years as if they don't sign him.

[someoneanywhere]

When you have a projected lineup that looks to have Salty hitting out of the 5 hole, and a starting 5-9 which potentially could post a collective OBP that's dangerously close to the .300 mark, there's simply no real need there to add a Josh Hamilton on short year money.

Right?

Only if you're convinced that they're done. In December. Two and half months before spring training. Four months before opening day. And with a catcher you've singled out for the 5-hole, but who many if not most people are convinced won't even be on the team when the starting gun sounds. Without yet addressing the rotation, the one thing the FO singled out and promised as the thing that would be fixed.

Only then. And then, sure, that's right.

[jmanny24]

Not sure where to put this or even what it means but Gammons posted this on Twitter: If you don't believe the multi-team Upton trade talk, Wednesday night a Rangers official called an Astros officisl and said, "we got Upton."
https://twitter.com/pgammo

[Drek717]

Not sure where to put this or even what it means but Gammons posted this on Twitter: If you don't believe the multi-team Upton trade talk, Wednesday night a Rangers official called an Astros officisl and said, "we got Upton."
https://twitter.com/pgammo

Well, fact is Texas could have Upton literally the minute they want him, so I guess in that sense they "got Upton". I mean, Arizona wants a new starting shortstop above everything else and the Rangers have Andrus and Profar, it's a matter of Daniels giving in and sending Andrus on over for Upton plus whatever else Arizona will give for him.

That's why Greinke is the big logjam that needs to be cleared. If he goes to Texas and they therefore aren't willing to give Hamilton $20M they'll likely want Upton to take his place, kicking off a cascade where L.A. probably gets stupid in the free agent starting pitcher market for someone else (Anibal Sanchez?) and Hamilton's market could hit a pretty damn hard bottom if the serious bidders are limited to Boston and Seattle. It would also help to price Asdrubal Cabrera since Andrus is a solid comp and it would also remove a suitor from the mix. Hell, to play this all the way out, if Cabrera wound up with the Tigers that would put Peralta on the market as another guy to be moved and would likely signal the beginning of Cleveland's fire sale in which they probably move Choo and Masterson out of town as well.

I can't recall a MLB off-season with as many strings tied to a single decision honestly, but then my memory of hot stove drama isn't fantastic either.

[MikeM]

Only if you're convinced that they're done. In December. Two and half months before spring training. Four months before opening day. And with a catcher you've singled out for the 5-hole, but who many if not most people are convinced won't even be on the team when the starting gun sounds. Without yet addressing the rotation, the one thing the FO singled out and promised as the thing that would be fixed.

We already are almost at $100m spent mark towards the the 2013 payroll, before even factoring in the arby cases. After what i saw go down last winter, and assuming there is indeed more to come on the pitching side, i'm expecting that the ultimate goal of preserving the flexibility we're heard time and time again this winter will win the day. Of course as we continue to spend more money, that little potential reality is seemingly getting pushed into an out of the way corner for now, as people scramble to justify why spending $13m/per on a guy like Victorino isn't a big deal. Still $40m under the cap! More then enough money left to go around, ect ect ect.

The speculated trade possibilities i've seen thrown around on both Ellsbury and Salty are reaches at best imo, and at this point, i'm also expecting that we end up keeping both. Ellsbury because we won't sell that low, and Salty because he's not going to net us a Gavin Floyd type, while unfortunately fitting in too well on what looks to be the final makeup of this roster.

So yeah, as far as the offensive side of things go, i'm current guessing we are more or less done with the projected starters.

[Drek717]

The speculated trade possibilities i've seen thrown around on both Ellsbury and Salty are reaches at best imo, and at this point, i'm also expecting that we end up keeping both. Ellsbury because we won't sell that low, and Salty because he's not going to net us a Gavin Floyd type, while unfortunately fitting in too well on what looks to be the final makeup of this roster.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but in what way is Salty "fitting in too well" on this team?

As of right now he looks like a guy without a job, unless the FO feels like watching Lavarnway crush AAA pitching for yet another pointless year. The main reason Salty might not return us a Gavin Floyd type is the same reason the Sox are unlikely to let him start at C in 2013 - no one trusts him to handle their pitching staff. There are enough catcher needy teams that someone will give up something worthwhile for him, and thats all it will take for the Sox to unload him.

[Savin Hillbilly]

When you have a projected lineup that looks to have Salty hitting out of the 5 hole

This is absurd. You're putting Salty in front of Middlebrooks? Hell, I wouldn't put him in front of Victorino or a Gomes/Kalish platoon. The very highest he should hit on this team as currently constructed is 7th, and more likely 8th. Never mind the fact that he's probably gone.

As for this part:

and a starting 5-9 which potentially could post a collective OBP that's dangerously close to the .300 mark

Here are the guys most likely to get significant PA in the 5 through 9 spots next year, and their BIll James projected OBPs:

Middlebrooks .316
VIctorino .338
Gomes .337
Kalish .320
Ross .321
Lavarnway .335
Iglesias .285

I think James' projection system is being a bit bearish on Wombat, and maybe even Kalish and Ross. But regardless, the only way that collective OBP drops down below .320, let alone .310, is if Iglesias starts going up to the plate disguised as the other guys and taking their at-bats for them.

Edited by Savin Hillbilly, 07 December 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[someoneanywhere]

We already are almost at $100m spent mark towards the the 2013 payroll, before even factoring in the arby cases. After what i saw go down last winter, and assuming there is indeed more to come on the pitching side, i'm expecting that the ultimate goal of preserving the flexibility we're heard time and time again this winter will win the day. Of course as we continue to spend more money, that little potential reality is seemingly getting pushed into an out of the way corner for now, as people scramble to justify why spending $13m/per on a guy like Victorino isn't a big deal. Still $40m under the cap! More then enough money left to go around, ect ect ect.

The speculated trade possibilities i've seen thrown around on both Ellsbury and Salty are reaches at best imo, and at this point, i'm also expecting that we end up keeping both. Ellsbury because we won't sell that low, and Salty because he's not going to net us a Gavin Floyd type, while unfortunately fitting in too well on what looks to be the final makeup of this roster.

So yeah, as far as the offensive side of things go, i'm current guessing we are more or less done with the projected starters.

Fair enough. But one bit of caution. Flexibilty does not primarily mean annual payroll -- even it or means staying south of the luxury tax threshold for financial and competitive reasons. It has meant no long term deals. As far as I can tell the FO has been true to that, and signing Hamilton to a three year deal wouldn't compromise it, whatever one thinks of such a move on the merits of the talent.

[Doctor G]

With the knowledge that Hamilton needed synvisc injections last season, I would much rather see the Red Sox use the projected expenditure on starting pitching and a shortstop, on two year deals. Maybe Drew and Jackson.

I have the feeling that teams are concerned a lot more with Hamilton's knees than his sobriety, thus the narrowing of the field of suitors. It is a lot easier to blame skittishness on his substance issues than to label him as damaged goods.

[redsoxstiff]

If Hamilton's knees are a surgical correctable condition...and the medicos project a useful recovery...I'd go 4 years ...if not forgedda bout him...

[MikeM]

This is absurd. You're putting Salty in front of Middlebrooks? Hell, I wouldn't put him in front of Victorino or a Gomes/Kalish platoon. The very highest he should hit on this team as currently constructed is 7th, and more likely 8th. Never mind the fact that he's probably gone.

The absurd there is reading way too much into Middlebrooks' fairly surprising explosion on to the scene last year, which generally saw a better then expected level of production that lasted all of a month. I like Middlebrooks as a projected whole, but keep in mind the guy is still only 24, and is hardly coming with any hard guarantees of that one month being some legit baseline we could/should be banking on going forward. The possibility/probability that we see some growing pains as he enters his second season should realistically all but be expected at this point, imo.

Your majority starting half of that other platoon is Ryan Kalish. Who's not only 2 years removed from any legitimate discussion on a substantial upside existing there (at least outside this board), but has battled injuries every step of that journey, and has yet to show much of anything at the MLB level. I'm all for giving the guy a default shot here too, but honestly, i shouldn't even have to go here right now.

Which brings us to my personal favorite part of the speculation now, which is when we stop viewing every move we make in the optimistically spun vacuum manner, and attempt tie everything together as it stands in reality:

First off, signing Gomes to his 2/$10m deal. Not an particularly high figure, but we didn't just choose to go out do this for nothing. He's going to play, with the current assumption being in a platoon role with Kalish as the most likely partner atm. Of course there exists the possibility that we go on to sign somebody other then Kalish to partner with, but considering the budget as it stands and quite frankly the questionable logic that would then be involved in going out to sign Gomes in the first place, i see that as being highly unlikely.

Secondly, signing Victorino. Again here, i don't see us ultimately selling low on Ellsbury, and don't see us realistically having the desirable budget room to add Hamilton on top of Victorino even if we did, At least while operating under the assumption that we are indeed going to end up spending a sizable amount on at least 1 starting pitcher this winter.

Thirdly, signing Ross and Napoli. Both primarily catchers, both RHH. Now the surface speculation here currently resides at the belief we did this with the plan on trading Salty. As a guy who's been a reasonably big supporter of Lavarnway (trust me in that not directly arguing with you there), i was at this conclusion myself...until we went out and signed Victorino. Which in turn threw a wrench into the ongoing reality that we went in to this offseason ideally needing BOTH a legitimate type #4 and #5 hitter for our lineup, with a limited amount of availability spots to do so. 1B and RF being the most obvious places it could/would potentially happen. This proved to be the adequate case at 1B, but by going in the direction of adding Victorino, that more or less closed the reality door on seeing the both happen. Well, unless one is still clinging to this whole notion that we may trade Lester for Myers (with him then hypothetically going on to immediately fill that role), which probably isn't happening at this point either.

This in turn brings up where we stand on Lavarnway. Granted, i again like him, and feel sending him back to AAA is a general waste. Unfortunately, now there's that looming reality that by not adding that second legitimate bat beyond Napoli, the lineup is suddenly looking potentially thin and rather RH'd at that. Now say what you want about Salty (i do all the time), but unlike Lavarnway he's actual proven at the MLB level. It's here I'm betting that this is counting for something fairly big in Ben's book when looking at this projected lineup atm, where best case scenario at SS is probably one that sees a ST invite to somebody like Alex Gonzalez, and then making Iglesias battle him out to earn the starting job breaking camp. Not exactly encouraging stuff on the offensive side. Combine that with that fact we signed Ross so early, likely with promises of ample playing time/opportunity short of being a starter, and i'm left seeing a catching platoon. With Lavarnway actually being the one to play the role of victim here, due to a missed opportunity last season and the bad set of surrounding circumstances for him in relationship with the 2013 mix.

All of the above stated, that leaves us currently looking at something along the lines of this as a primarily used lineup, imo:

1. (L) Ellsbury
2. ® Pedroia
3. (L) Ortiz
4. ®Napoli
5, (L) Salty
6. ® Middlebrooks
7. (S) Victorino
8. (L) Kalish
9.® Iglesias

Fair enough. But one bit of caution. Flexibilty does not primarily mean annual payroll -- even it or means staying south of the luxury tax threshold for financial and competitive reasons. It has meant no long term deals. As far as I can tell the FO has been true to that, and signing Hamilton to a three year deal wouldn't compromise it, whatever one thinks of such a move on the merits of the talent.

Fair enough that flexibility can have many meanings and interpretations here. To me flexibility and the need to preserve such means attempting to NOT paint yourselves into any penny pinching scenarios we saw last winter, and maintaining the ability to seize opportunites you may ideally want/need as they present themselves. Ya know, pretty much flex the muscles we spent the better part of a decade having before we got caught up in the realm of fielding $170m payrolls.

Just saying, for some of the people out there preaching about Victorino money not mattering in the short term, maybe take a second to sit down and start doing the actual math. The money/flexibility for the next few years is adding up fairly quick, and if that lineup above isn't cutting it for some, those are some pretty big all-in bets being made on significant internal help coming sooner rather then latter. Especially in the process of all but pushing Ellsbury out the door, who is the only significant contract i readily seeing coming off the books next winter (other then maybe Lester, who will need to be directly replaced himself), and which is then going to create a hole at the top of the lineup to go along with the arguable hole that already exists in the #5 spot now.

Edited by MikeM, 08 December 2012 - 02:56 AM.