69 replies to this topic

[Shelterdog]

So is it just me or is Markus Zusecivcs intruiging? I wouldn't think they'd keep him on the 53 after he came off PUP (rather than putting him on IR) unless they thought he was pretty good.

[Super Nomario]

Some interesting stuff on O-lines and sacks allowed over at FO today: http://www.footballo...hutdown-tackles

Vollmer and Solder both on the list of tackles allowing the fewest sacks, with 1 and 2, respectively.

[phragle]

Do Brady & Manning also pass the most out of shotgun? That could explain quite a bit as there is a big difference between faking a quick handoff in shotgun and a true PA pass where you hide the ball. Also any QB that runs a lot of shotgun is going to have a significant advantage since they aren't wasting any time dropping back. You probably shave at least .5 seconds off the release time just by being in shot gun vs. a 3 or 5 step drop.

I'm not aware of a stat for that.

[phragle]

FWIW Pro Football Focus has the Pats O line rated 12th in pass blocking. I don't know the formula they use to come up with that.

[soxfan121]

So is it just me or is Markus Zusecivcs intruiging? I wouldn't think they'd keep him on the 53 after he came off PUP (rather than putting him on IR) unless they thought he was pretty good.

Yep - it would have been very easy & cheap to IR him and bring him back in TC next year to find out if he's a fit. But to PUP him, activate him and then play him this season indicates he's a quick healer (or very tough) and has shown real progress in both the meeting room & during practice.

Another factor to consider when thinking about Mankins future with the team.

[ShaneTrot]

FWIW Pro Football Focus has the Pats O line rated 12th in pass blocking. I don't know the formula they use to come up with that.

I like PFF but does that pass the smell test for you? The Pats pass a lot and very rarely is Brady under pressure. He gets the ball out fast but the line is top notch. I know sacks are not the end all be all but they have given up only 15 sacks (only the Giants have given up fewer,14) and 36 QB hits. Only 5 teams have given up <40 QB hits. BTW Philly has given up 87 QB hits, the Colts are next at 74, followed by AZ at 73. The Philly QBs are getting smashed.

[phragle]

I like PFF but does that pass the smell test for you? The Pats pass a lot and very rarely is Brady under pressure. He gets the ball out fast but the line is top notch. I know sacks are not the end all be all but they have given up only 15 sacks (only the Giants have given up fewer,14) and 36 QB hits. Only 5 teams have given up <40 QB hits. BTW Philly has given up 87 QB hits, the Colts are next at 74, followed by AZ at 73. The Philly QBs are getting smashed.

Sure. It would probably smell better if I knew how they came to that number, but I think they are around 10th best in pass blocking. That's based on nothing but the eye test. The Giants are 13th BTW.

[phragle]

I got Steve Palazzolo of PFF and Draft Hub to come in and shed some light on the topic. I don't know when.

[Palo20]

I'm obviously a bit biased, but I think the work we do at PFF is as good as it gets with regard to OLine/DLine play.

The Patriots OLine has been good, and the majority of them have graded positively in pass protection. I do think that scheme, as well as Brady's decisiveness make it much easier on them, however. Brady's Time to Throw is low because of the short passing game and his ability to know where he's going with the ball. That's not news to anyone here.

When comparing the Pats OLine to others around the league, remember we watch every team. The timing of pressure is a big factor in our grading system.


Steve

Edited by Palo20, 30 November 2012 - 09:07 PM.

[Super Nomario]

I'm obviously a bit biased, but I think the work we do at PFF is as good as it gets with regard to OLine/DLine play.

The Patriots OLine has been good, and the majority of them have graded positively in pass protection. I do think that scheme, as well as Brady's decisiveness make it much easier on them, however. Brady's Time to Throw is low because of the short passing game and his ability to know where he's going with the ball. That's not news to anyone here.

When comparing the Pats OLine to others around the league, remember we watch every team. The timing of pressure is a big factor in our grading system.

Do you also look at play as a unit? It seems like there's some variation in how offensive lines handle stunts and games and that's an area that it seems like the Patriots do well in. That seems like a hard thing to quantify on a player-by-player basis. I do agree with your overall assessment, though (good but not outstanding OL made to look better by scheme / Brady).

[Palo20]

Do you also look at play as a unit? It seems like there's some variation in how offensive lines handle stunts and games and that's an area that it seems like the Patriots do well in. That seems like a hard thing to quantify on a player-by-player basis. I do agree with your overall assessment, though (good but not outstanding OL made to look better by scheme / Brady).

We chart every pressure and generally try to assign blame if a player was late picking up a stunt or whatever the situation may be. We even assign pressure to the QB if he holds on to the ball too long, and offensive linemen are not deducted for losing leverage on a defender due to a scrambling quarterback.

The Pats have actually had some issues with stunts and twists in recent years and Greg Bedard has done a good job of pointing this out. I'm really looking forward to seeing how they handle the 49ers' front. Justin Smith is master of taking on two blockers through some subtle holding, allowing guys like Aldon Smith to come free unblocked. That's one of the reasons why Aldon is rated lower as a pass rusher in our system compared to a guy like Von Miller despite Aldon's gaudy sack totals.

[phragle]

Steve, what kind of plays or results are factored into the O lines pass protection rankings? I'm just trying to figure out how you guys come to those numbers. I don't really like Football Outsiders method, because I think it's largely a product of the quarterback's effectiveness and tendencies.

By the way you guys can follow Steve on twitter here. He provides insight and snark on the NFL, CFB, and the NFL draft. He's a good follow and a Patriots fan (I think.)

[Wilco's Last Fan]

I know Steve is long gone from this thread, but I'm wondering how they factor in things like pulling/upfield-blocking on screen plays or tosses. The Pats seem to have a very athletic line that excels at these kinds of things, and that won't factor into a grade if you're only charting pressures.

[ragnarok725]

Ben Muth returns to the Patriots in his series of columns with another great read. Some goods and some bads.
http://www.footballo...aising-patriots

First, it sounds like Thomas is playing well, and Solder continues to look good.

The left side of the line, with Solder and Thomas, played well. In addition to their final-drive dominance on the ground, they were generally solid in pass protection all game. Plus, they worked in combination well enough to have the play of the game: a block that ended with Koa Misi flat on his back.

Thomas has been a more than serviceable back-up. It's nice to have him given the rash of injuries with Mankins and Connolly. Good to hear some praise of him here.

The more concerning section is around Vollmer, however.

Vollmer has been great all year, but missed Week 12's game against the Jets with an injury. He was a game-time decision on Sunday, and it looked like New England may have made the wrong decision. Vollmer struggled in both the passing and running game against Cameron Wake for most of Sunday.

In the running game he was consistently behind his blocks: his helmet was never on the correct side of the defensive lineman. Generally, if the defender is running towards your side, you want your helmet on the defender’s outside number or shoulder (depending on if the play is going inside or outside). Vollmer never threatened to get outside of Wake. As a result, Wake was never worried about losing leverage and was able to dig his cleats into the ground and hold the point. On backside cutoffs, Vollmer had the same issue. He was unable to get his head across defensive tackles, so he gave up far too much penetration.

It wasn’t just the lack of movement or some leakage in the running plays: it was the huge negative plays he allowed. He gave up a sack-and-a-half and was responsible for another sack he wasn't credited for. (His man beat him inside, forcing Brady to give ground and roll right into Solder’s man.) He also had a holding penalty. Those are all drive-killers.

It went beyond ineffectiveness: he looked bad moving around the field. He looked stiff and slow out of his stance (hence why he was behind all his blocks), and had trouble redirecting on pass rushes. With how well he’s played all year, it’s easy to write off this performance due to the injury, but it’s still very worrisome. It’s tough for offensive linemen to get healthier during the year if they’re active every week. Add that to the fact that the Patriots play the Texans and 49ers (two very physical defenses) the next two weeks, and it could be a bumpy road for Vollmer the rest of the way.

That's pretty damning stuff. Really need to hope Vollmer just had an off day or there was somethign acute going on there.

One reason for optimism, however - Reiss quoted Vollmer saying the following today:

“I feel good,” Vollmer said Wednesday when asked about his health. “I was out there last week and it was fine. I’m just looking ahead to Monday.”

Vollmer, who missed most of training camp while recovering from an offseason procedure on his back, wore a knee brace as he was tested by doctors on the field prior to Sunday’s game. He was beaten by Dolphins end Cameron Wake for one crunching sack of quarterback Tom Brady, and had a holding penalty earlier in the game.

He won’t use injuries as an excuse.

“I don’t have day to day pain or anything like that. I feel really good, actually,” he said.

It's really important for Vollmer to play better than he did against Miami. I think his struggles alone stalled more than one drive. He had been all pro caliber prior to the last couple weeks, so let's hope he can get it together. If he needs a week or two off, I thought Cannon looked pretty solid against the Jets. Would also be nice if the Pats could pick up a bye and/or not be playing for anything in the last week of the season to help some of these guys get right.

http://espn.go.com/b...h-back-on-radar

Edited by ragnarok725, 06 December 2012 - 05:14 PM.

[Super Nomario]

I looked at the protection for my blog:
http://davebreaksdow...3-at-miami.html

Most of the sacks and hurries were just D linemen beating O linemen. Vollmer had a rough game, though I'm not well-versed enough in the mechanics of O-line play to tell you specifically what he was doing wrong. The Pats weren't giving the O-line much help though.

[ragnarok725]

I looked at the protection for my blog:
http://davebreaksdow...3-at-miami.html

Most of the sacks and hurries were just D linemen beating O linemen. Vollmer had a rough game, though I'm not well-versed enough in the mechanics of O-line play to tell you specifically what he was doing wrong. The Pats weren't giving the O-line much help though.

In your breakdown you talk about that goalline play that Brady got sacked on...

In the second shot we can see that Thomas does not get a good block on Jones, who hits Brady (#12) from the blind side. On the right side, Hernandez stumbles coming out of his break. He appears to be Brady's first read, and the stumble not only messes up the timing but also the spacing with TE Michael Hoomanawanui (#47), coming from the fullback position on this play. Fells, running a drag after chipping from the left side, is in heavy traffic. The open man is actually Nate Solder, normally a left tackle, who reported as eligible on this play; no Dolphin picks him up as he runs towards the left corner. Solder hasn't caught a pass since his freshman year of college, though, and was undoubtedly not Brady's first read. With the blitz on Brady has no time to go through his progressions, and so we were cheated out of Solder's first career touchdown grab.

That wasn't my read on the play. I've re-watched it a bunch and it looks to me like this is very similar to the old Mike Vrabel plays, where Solder slips through coverage and makes a catch. My impression was that it was a play designed to get the ball to Solder and it looked like it was developing well minus the protection breakdown.

[Super Nomario]

In your breakdown you talk about that goalline play that Brady got sacked on...
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That wasn't my read on the play. I've re-watched it a bunch and it looks to me like this is very similar to the old Mike Vrabel plays, where Solder slips through coverage and makes a catch. My impression was that it was a play designed to get the ball to Solder and it looked like it was developing well minus the protection breakdown.

Brady fakes the handoff, takes his drop, and pats the ball looking towards his right (towards Hoomanwanui or Hernandez) with his shoulders and feet set to throw in that direction.

This is him at the end of his drop. From that position, he can't throw to Solder (who's off to the left side). A play-action pass is already pretty slow developing for that part of the field; it would be really risky to design a play where Brady wasn't supposed to throw right away once he finished his drop.

[ragnarok725]

Brady fakes the handoff, takes his drop, and pats the ball looking towards his right (towards Hoomanwanui or Hernandez) with his shoulders and feet set to throw in that direction.

This is him at the end of his drop. From that position, he can't throw to Solder (who's off to the left side). A play-action pass is already pretty slow developing for that part of the field; it would be really risky to design a play where Brady wasn't supposed to throw right away once he finished his drop.

I had been thinking it looked like a designed look-off, with the plan to come back to Solder after he sneaks through traffic, especially with how much of a clusterfuck it looked like on the right side. Why else take your LT out of position and send him out in a route if his route is going to be essentially a safety valve last option?

[Super Nomario]

I had been thinking it looked like a designed look-off, with the plan to come back to Solder after he sneaks through traffic, especially with how much of a clusterfuck it looked like on the right side. Why else take your LT out of position and send him out in a route if his route is going to be essentially a safety valve last option?

Who would Brady be looking off? The safety on the right is blitzing, too, and they already had the play fake to draw up any defenders who might have dropped into zones.

The safety blitz was unexpected, but on the two you're not going to have a lot of time. It's pretty bad play design to run a goal line set with a play fake where you're not supposed to throw at the end of your drop, especially if you're sending four receivers out in patterns. If it's something that slow developing, something else needs to be going on: a bootleg with throwback action, Hoomanawanui staying in to block, something. I can't know for sure that's you're wrong here, but if you're right it's a risky, stupid play in my opinion. I looked back at the Pats' other goal-line passes from this formation, and in all but one Brady threw right at the end of his drop; the last one it looked like he had to make a couple reads.

As for why Solder was out in the pattern, I don't know. Their goal line package has 6 OL, and it makes sense for Solder to be the eligible guy. They were running three routes to the right side, so they probably wanted someone running a route the other way. It's a reasonable safety valve, since if there's a lot of coverage on the right side, Solder is probably going to be open. And it gives other teams something to look at; if the Pats run it again, will opponents leave Solder uncovered?

[MentalDisabldLst]

NFL fans who enjoyed the Pats-Niners game ten days ago, and who enjoy breakdowns of how exactly line play works in the NFL, will probably enjoy Ben Muth's piece here detailing Nate Solder's struggles and the Niners' pass rush and run D.