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Bonfire of the Valentines: post-mortem game thread


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#1 Sprowl


  • mikey lowell of the sandbox


  • 20935 posts

Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:06 PM

This game thread is for the ritual destruction of the occasions of failure. Bobby Valentine wasn't responsible for Beckett being a foul-mouthed turd, Lester a pudgy whiner, Bard a 21st Century Steve Blass, or Gonzalez a power-starved turtle; he didn't strain Pedroia's thumb, break Middlebrooks' wrist, tear Crawford's elbow, sublux Ellsbury's shoulder, kick David Ortiz' heel, or sign Nick Punto; he didn't cause Iglesias, Lavarnway and Kalish to show such meagre results in their major-league auditions, but everything he did made things worse. On a team that needed leadership, he alienated the players, fought with the coaches, and elicited the worst performance from a Red Sox team in my lifetime. Casting him away is the first step on the long road back, or it's the first step on the road to nowhere, but either way, it's the first step. All purges begin with a single scapegoat.



#2 LuckyBen

  • 1321 posts

Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:07 PM

Four more years!!!

#3 Kull


  • wannabe merloni


  • 1147 posts

Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:17 PM

I alluded to it earlier, but after twin epic collapses in 2011, Red Sox ownership scapegoated their manager, while the Braves didn't. A year later, Karma reminds us that yes, she's always watching.

Edit: Putting the blame where it really lies

Edited by Kull, 03 October 2012 - 10:20 PM.


#4 NomarRS05

  • 3301 posts

Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:21 PM

It wasn't so much Bobby V himself (OK maybe it was). It was that his hiring exposed a decision-making process within the organization that had strayed so far from the path of what got them successful. To think that we just had to endure a whole season of that would have been unthinkable 13 months ago.

We can only hope that the dysfunctional mode of thinking that brought him on board in the first place is gone along with the man himself. Here's to hoping.

#5 SemperFidelisSox


  • suzyn


  • 10483 posts

Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:13 PM

So, no Season 2?

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#6 Sprowl


  • mikey lowell of the sandbox


  • 20935 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:10 AM

In a poll close to the start of the season, I voted for 91-93 wins and a wild-card playoff game.

Halfway through the season, I hoped for 1971: a third-place finish and a passel of promising rookies.

69-93, Iggy popless, and a lottery ticket behind Cleveland isn't really what I had in mind.

#7 MoGator71

  • 4963 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:10 AM

Tonight it occurred to me, the amount of talent Ben dealt away. I mean, pretty much an entire lineup: Crawford, Reddick, Youkilis, Lowrie, Scutaro, Punto, Turtle, Shoppach, Beckett. Yea one of the infielders will have to play CF but still...and what did he get in return? That's a lot of MLB talent dealt away for not much other than relief pitchers, a 4th OF, and salary relief. Christ this season just got more depressing.

#8 ItOnceWasMyLife

  • 1611 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:15 AM

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#9 AimingForYoko


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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:19 AM

Yay! Burn Bobby, burn!

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#10 E5 Yaz


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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:57 AM



#11 abty

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:30 AM

All purges might begin with a scapegoat but all rebuilding plans require honesty and accountabilty. I hope for your sake that the front office, and players who have failed since 2008 to reach their potential as a team, are capable of this. The team peaked in 2008 and there were no plans and it shows. It happens. Now it's time to be honest:
  • You have no real ace. You don't have a King Felix
  • Bard is a great 8th inning weapon that you may have destroyed out of some need for somebody in the F.O to prove how smart they were
  • Aceves was taken out of his proper role (7th inning/Long Man)
  • Pedroia won't age well and won't improve from his 2007/2008 seasons. Sorry, but he won't
  • Ellsbury is not a really reliable nor impactful player.
  • You traded your best prospects and kept your worst prospects
It happens. It can be rebuilt. But using Bobby as a punching bag when he came into a toxic situation from day 1, where his coaches didn't support him, nor the players, is like looking at a building on fire and sweeping the lobby. Blaming the building for not being fire proof. In the real world it's not the perfect analogy but my point is not that he was great - but that even if he were great he'd be the scape goat because that's the way it is around here. He was never allowed to have a good team and supporting staff so it's absurd to ignore that this is one of the reasons this team needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Do not confuse this post with me saying "Bobby, great job. You should be left alone in all of this criticism".

With all of that said, it's time to take out the fire and get your hands dirty and realize that this building, for all intents and purposes, is meant to be torn down and rebuilt. Not restructured - rebuilt. Do it before the yankees come to this realiziation in 2014. Have an edge on them over time and take advantage of what will be another Rays fire sale in a few years as well. This team, as it is, couldn't win with Francona. Sept 2011 proved this. It's not the manager - it's the team and the GM. I wish your team good luck. I always want to see them do well. Flame away.

Edited by abty, 04 October 2012 - 06:32 AM.


#12 LeoCarrillo


  • Do his bits at your peril.


  • 5323 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:56 AM

Bob, when you get in, could we see you for a sec?

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#13 ibanez

  • 1 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:35 AM

It's all Terry Francona's fault

#14 topps148

  • 2862 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:51 AM

Chapter 1.

They're selling postcards of the hanging
They're painting the passports brown
The beauty parlor is filled with sailors
The circus is in town
Here comes the blind commissioner
They've got him in a trance
One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker
The other is in his pants
And the riot squad they're restless
They need somewhere to go
As Lady and I look out tonight
From Desolation Row.
...
Yes, I received your letter yesterday
About the time the door knob broke
When you asked me how I was doing
Was that some kind of joke ?
All these people that you mention
Yes, I know them, they're quite lame
I had to rearrange their faces
And give them all another name
Right now I can't read so good
Don't send me no more letters no
Not unless you send them
From Desolation Row.


#15 Smiling Joe Hesketh


  • now batting steve sal hiney. the leftfielder, hiney


  • 25521 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:14 AM

Posted Image

"Stop! Stop, will you?! Stop that! Stop it! Now, look! No one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle! Do you understand?! Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear, even if they do say 'Jehovah.'"

#16 drtooth


  • 2:30


  • 9152 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:47 AM

Mr Valentine, our new adviser would like to talk to you.

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#17 Curll

  • 4396 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:23 AM

Hello, Robert. Please come with me.

Posted Image

#18 exGloucester

  • 1184 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:13 AM

Daddy, make the bad man go away.

#19 Stitch01


  • SoSH Member


  • 8030 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:46 AM

All purges might begin with a scapegoat but all rebuilding plans require honesty and accountabilty. I hope for your sake that the front office, and players who have failed since 2008 to reach their potential as a team, are capable of this. The team peaked in 2008 and there were no plans and it shows. It happens. Now it's time to be honest:

  • You have no real ace. You don't have a King Felix
  • Bard is a great 8th inning weapon that you may have destroyed out of some need for somebody in the F.O to prove how smart they were
  • Aceves was taken out of his proper role (7th inning/Long Man)
  • Pedroia won't age well and won't improve from his 2007/2008 seasons. Sorry, but he won't
  • Ellsbury is not a really reliable nor impactful player.
  • You traded your best prospects and kept your worst prospects
It happens. It can be rebuilt. But using Bobby as a punching bag when he came into a toxic situation from day 1, where his coaches didn't support him, nor the players, is like looking at a building on fire and sweeping the lobby. Blaming the building for not being fire proof. In the real world it's not the perfect analogy but my point is not that he was great - but that even if he were great he'd be the scape goat because that's the way it is around here. He was never allowed to have a good team and supporting staff so it's absurd to ignore that this is one of the reasons this team needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Do not confuse this post with me saying "Bobby, great job. You should be left alone in all of this criticism".

With all of that said, it's time to take out the fire and get your hands dirty and realize that this building, for all intents and purposes, is meant to be torn down and rebuilt. Not restructured - rebuilt. Do it before the yankees come to this realiziation in 2014. Have an edge on them over time and take advantage of what will be another Rays fire sale in a few years as well. This team, as it is, couldn't win with Francona. Sept 2011 proved this. It's not the manager - it's the team and the GM. I wish your team good luck. I always want to see them do well. Flame away.



This thread is for celebrating the departure of our awful manager, take this shit somewhere else.

#20 AimingForYoko


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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:07 AM

Why is he still here?

We're waiting.

#21 CaptainLaddie


  • dj paul pfieffer


  • 22759 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:09 AM

FUCKING FIRE HIM ALREADY

#22 Nuf Ced


  • stupidity monitor


  • 9291 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:29 AM

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#23 LeoCarrillo


  • Do his bits at your peril.


  • 5323 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:38 AM

This is crap. He's stalling at some Dunkin' Donuts.

#24 LynnRice75

  • 3889 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:55 AM

Anyone see this article about the O's reactions to the Sox losing to the Yanks?
http://sports.yahoo....-s-expense.html
Go Texas.

#25 AimingForYoko


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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:56 AM

HOORAH

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#26 InsideTheParker


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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:58 AM

I'm a happy woman.

#27 Moosbrugger

  • 183 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:59 AM

Y'know, this refresh button seems to be faulty.

#28 Matt Young's Control

  • 17 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:01 PM

The day after a 93 loss season, and I am giddy right now about the Boston Red Sox. Doesn't seem right, but I'll take it.

#29 Curll

  • 4396 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:04 PM

The day after a 93 loss season, and I am giddy right now about the Boston Red Sox. Doesn't seem right, but I'll take it.


A top 10 pick, a core of Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury, Tazawa, Ortiz, Ross and tons and tons of spending cash. An aging Yankees team, a craptastic O's team that shouldn't have made the playoffs, and a Rays team that can't score runs.

There's plenty of reason to be happy for 2013.

#30 budcrew08

  • 1948 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:05 PM

It had to happen. Let's clean house, start over fresh. It's too toxic in Boston.

#31 Eck'sSneakyCheese


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  • 8615 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:25 PM

Extremely excited for 2013. Right now. At this moment.

Any number of head scratching moves by this FO could completely kill that, but right now, I'm giddy.

C'mon, let's keep this thing going.... FIRE HIM AGAIN

Edited by Eck'sSneakyCheese, 04 October 2012 - 12:27 PM.


#32 mauidano


  • Mai Tais for everyone!


  • 13406 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:30 PM

Extremely excited for 2013. Right now. At this moment.

Any number of head scratching moves by this FO could completely kill that, but right now, I'm giddy.

The first head scratching moment would be to rush out and hire John Farrell. Easy now fellas, he is NOT the best candidate out there.

#33 LeoCarrillo


  • Do his bits at your peril.


  • 5323 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:34 PM

Posted Image

Annnnnnd ... go fuck yahself.

#34 Eck'sSneakyCheese


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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:44 PM

The first head scratching moment would be to rush out and hire John Farrell. Easy now fellas, he is NOT the best candidate out there.


Agreed. IMO, it would be a step back not forward.

#35 LynnRice75

  • 3889 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:45 PM

Posted Image
Posted Image

#36 Curll

  • 4396 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:46 PM



#37 JBill

  • 1932 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:56 PM

My favorite Bobby V moment:

McClure was granted a leave of absence from the team earlier in the season to attend to a sick infant who was seriously ill and Niemann served as interim pitching coach in McClure’s absence. After McClure returned, Valentine later made mention of McClure’s “two-week vacation” before correcting himself.


The man is all class. Still hard to comprehend that Bobby Valentine was who they hand picked to replace Tito. Lucchino still does not get enough grief for how he has orchestrated everything post-collapse, from the Tito smear job to hiring his incompetent replacement. It's made the entire organization smell.

I'm not going to congratulate ownership for fixing mistakes caused by their own buffoonery. At the very least, it was a quick fix, we only had to deal with one season of this nonsense.

#38 SemperFidelisSox


  • suzyn


  • 10483 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:44 PM

He may have a future as a kindergarten teacher.

#39 cherno

  • 4298 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:19 PM

A top 10 pick, a core of Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury, Tazawa, Ortiz, Ross and tons and tons of spending cash. An aging Yankees team, a craptastic O's team that shouldn't have made the playoffs, and a Rays team that can't score runs. There's plenty of reason to be happy for 2013.


This made my day. There is no where to go from here but up. Today is a great first step.

#40 E5 Yaz


  • Transcends message boarding


  • 25550 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:24 PM

This made my day. There is no where to go from here but up. Today is a great first step.


Except that the same decision-makers who got us here are the ones expected to get us out

#41 mauidano


  • Mai Tais for everyone!


  • 13406 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:40 PM

Except that the same decision-makers who got us here are the ones expected to get us out

This is what makes me nervous. The "rush" to make it all right in The Nation. Take your time and get it right this time.

#42 Marbleheader


  • SoSH Member


  • 7092 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:44 PM

I don't think they are going to rush it, but it will happen fast. They've had a couple of months to identify candidates, knowing Valentine was gone.

#43 dynomite

  • 4517 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:45 PM

This is what makes me nervous. The "rush" to make it all right in The Nation. Take your time and get it right this time.


They've had plenty of time. They went through this search last season, and it's been clear for months that Bobby V wasn't going to be here in 2013.

Personally, I'd rather see them pick someone and pursue him rather than conduct another meandering search of random candidates.

#44 soxhop411


  • SoSH Member


  • 10123 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:11 PM

Pete Abraham@PeteAbe
#RedSox just started their weird not a press conference. Bringing in one media outlet at a time. Never have seen this before


This seems.... Odd.. most of the time its one big Press conference, not one media outlet at a time

Edited by soxhop411, 04 October 2012 - 03:19 PM.


#45 topps148

  • 2862 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:54 PM

Chapter 2.
Hey, hey, my, my, what a surprise.

Out of the blue and into the black
They give you this, but you pay for that
And once you're gone, you can never come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black.


And now, we're Gonna Search.

#46 fineyoungarm


  • tweets about his subwoofer!


  • 3802 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:55 PM

Except that the same decision-makers who got us here are the ones expected to get us out


2013 could be a very long year for Ben C without BV around to serve as a lightning rod. Presently, I give him a "Gentleman's C" (a grade with which I once was well familiar).

#47 InsideTheParker


  • SoSH Member


  • 10921 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:22 PM




Celebratory lunch was amazing: Pinot Gris, Chicken and Local Wild Mushroom Ragout with Pappardelle, Dark Chocolate Mousse with Whipped Cream.

#48 topps148

  • 2862 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:39 PM

This made my day. There is no where to go from here but up. Today is a great first step.

Except that the same decision-makers who got us here are the ones expected to get us out

Both true.

And there's a long way to go. Over the last fifth of the season (32 games), the Sox scored 92 and gave up 196 runs. Extrapolating to a full season, that's 466 and 992. The '62 Mets (161 games) scored 617 and gave up 948, 147(!) unearned. The Amazin's scored 32% more than the projected Sox, which seems like a lot for Ortiz and Middlebrooks, say, to create next year.

So, put me in the skeptics' camp, since I don't think the Babe and Teddy Ballgame are walking through that door, nor Sandy and Hoot.

Edited by topps148, 04 October 2012 - 04:42 PM.


#49 InsideTheParker


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  • 10921 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:55 PM

I'm skeptical also and have very low expectations for 2013. But I for one would welcome a rebuilding year, the development of our young players, making the occasional trade to pick up some other young arms, if the RS could get anything for anyone they control, say, Ellsbury. The tough thing is having nobody left under our control to offer except guys we don't want to let go, like the low-paid and effective Tazawa and WMB.
I would welcome Ortiz back, except I've heard said, "They don't have the expression 'Achilles' heel for nothing'." I.e., it's very hard to get over, especially as one ages. I was just browsing Cot's contracts and was amazed to see how few players are signed beyond this year. They really could start almost from scratch, but who's out there who won't be overpaid, like Greinke or Hamilton?

#50 fineyoungarm


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  • 3802 posts

Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:01 PM

Both true.

And there's a long way to go. Over the last fifth of the season (32 games), the Sox scored 92 and gave up 196 runs. Extrapolating to a full season, that's 466 and 992. The '62 Mets (161 games) scored 617 and gave up 948, 147(!) unearned. The Amazin's scored 32% more than the projected Sox, which seems like a lot for Ortiz and Middlebrooks, say, to create next year.

So, put me in the skeptics' camp, since I don't think the Babe and Teddy Ballgame are walking through that door, nor Sandy and Hoot.


Right about now I'd take Ray Culp.




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