650 replies to this topic

[Rudy Pemberton]

Hell, if I'm Bobby, I'd want to get fired today, and get out of Dodge. What's in it for him, in terms of sticking around? He has no future in the game and knows it. My guess is they are trying to negotiate a buyout and he wants no part of it.

Hell, I bet he's threatening to leak all kinds of shit once he's canned. I mean, is there any explanation as to why he hasn't been fired? The team quit on him weeks ago. Doesn't say much for them, but says nothing for him. Dealt a crappy hand but made it much, much worse.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 03 September 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[TheoShmeo]

Hell, if I'm Bobby, I'd want to get fired today, and get out of Dodge. What's in it for him, in terms of sticking around? He has no future in the game and knows it. My guess is they are trying to negotiate a buyout and he wants no part of it.

Hell, I bet he's threatening to leak all kinds of shit once he's canned. I mean, is there any explanation as to why he hasn't been fired? The team quit on him weeks ago. Doesn't say much for them, but says nothing for him. Dealt a crappy hand but made it much, much worse.

For what it's worth, Tim Kirkjian, a friend of Bobby's, said that Bobby just isn't the kind of guy who would ever quit. It's just not in his DNA. And Kirkjian is probably right as this job must be utter drudgery for BV.

As to why Bobby hasn't been fired, I assume it's a combination of:

- Feeling like it's not fair to can Bobby after one season, especially given the injuries and that they had not cleared out the bad contracts until now;

- Wanting to see how Bobby finished;

- The thought that they were right to hire him in the first place and that he still might be able to work well with a new and improved roster, and with coaches who actually speak with him;

- Wanting to wait until after the 2013 seasons for Farrell to be freed from Toronto without the need to compensate the Blue Jays;

- Wanting not to taint anyone with the overwhelming stink of this season;

- Wanting to make the next hiring process methodical and one in which they are all on the same page;

- Most importantly, wanting to get the next hire right; after BV, no more mulligans; and

- The sense that in this lost season, there isn't much to gain by making a change now.

[Rudy Pemberton]

I just think there's an opportunity, now, to build some positive momentum for the final month by firing Bobby and making it clear (to current and potential players, coaches, agents, etc) that next year is a new year. Keeping Bobby around just ensures another wretched month filled with the crap we've seen all year. It's going to get worse, not better.

[TheoShmeo]

I just think there's an opportunity, now, to build some positive momentum for the final month by firing Bobby and making it clear (to current and potential players, coaches, agents, etc) that next year is a new year. Keeping Bobby around just ensures another wretched month filled with the crap we've seen all year. It's going to get worse, not better.

I happen to agree with you. I'd fire him too.

But you asked if there is "any" explanation for keeping Bobby. I don't particularly agree with it but this isn't like Grady's decision to send Pedro out for the 8th. There are reasonable explanations for what the Sox are doing here.

[mabrowndog]

Didn't Martinez decline the opportunity to interview last winter?

The way I understood it, he was still under contract with TB when the Sox requested permission to talk to him, and the Rays said no. The Sox have done the same with Farrell and others (Tuck) over the years. However, I can't find any confirmation that TB actually denied Martinez the chance to move up with either the Sox or another prospective club.

FWIW, Martinez and the rest of the Rays' coaches all re-signed with TB on 2-year deals as reported late last November, so I won't be surprised if the Sox get cockblocked again.

[maufman]

I just think there's an opportunity, now, to build some positive momentum for the final month by firing Bobby and making it clear (to current and potential players, coaches, agents, etc) that next year is a new year. Keeping Bobby around just ensures another wretched month filled with the crap we've seen all year. It's going to get worse, not better.

Shouldn't the new guy get a fresh start, untainted by the disaster that was the 2012 Red Sox? And if you bring in an interim manager now, how do you not hand him the permanent job if he rights the ship, gets a little lucky, and goes 18-9 down the stretch?

If you want to hire someone who isn't currently in the clubhouse to manage the club in 2013, you should let BV play out the string, unless you think he's going to make Ace pitch until his arm falls off. If that's a concern, then of course you fire him now -- though getting a coach to take the manager's job on an interim basis might be easier said than done. If you were Bogar, and the FO told you you weren't a candidate to manage next season, would you want any part of the interim gig? I wouldn't.

[Harry Hooper]

Hell, if I'm Bobby, I'd want to get fired today, and get out of Dodge. What's in it for him, in terms of sticking around? He has no future in the game and knows it. My guess is they are trying to negotiate a buyout and he wants no part of it.

How about BobbyV be a true professional and do what's required of a manager to earn his pay for the last month? That means no late arrivals, no picking stupid fights with the press, and going with lineups that are in the long-term interest of the club. If he won't do it, suspend his ass.

[Rudy Pemberton]

The odds of a new guy running off an 18-9 finish is unlikely and you worry about in the event t happens. If you keep Valentine, you get another month of negative press, and go into the offseason with a disinterested fan base and a clubhouse of guys who want out (we've already heard the stories about how no one wants to sign here, how long until there are rumors of a Pedroia trade request, for example?). There's no reason that Bogar can't manage the rest of the way and be let go in the offseason, it's highly unlikely the new hire will want him back (and if he's actually under consideration, wouldnt giving him the reins for a month be a good thing?),

If the team was playing hard and competing an there wasn't any drama, I'd be fine with keeping Bobby, but none of that is the case.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Shouldn't the new guy get a fresh start, untainted by the disaster that was the 2012 Red Sox? And if you bring in an interim manager now, how do you not hand him the permanent job if he rights the ship, gets a little lucky, and goes 18-9 down the stretch?

If you want to hire someone who isn't currently in the clubhouse to manage the club in 2013, you should let BV play out the string, unless you think he's going to make Ace pitch until his arm falls off. If that's a concern, then of course you fire him now -- though getting a coach to take the manager's job on an interim basis might be easier said than done. If you were Bogar, and the FO told you you weren't a candidate to manage next season, would you want any part of the interim gig? I wouldn't.

So if they decided to fire Valentine today, and went to Bogar to tell him he was the interim manager for the final month of the season, you think he'd put conditions on taking the job? That's Jim Riggleman-level stupidity. You don't think he'd just say thanks for the opportunity and then do the job as best he can? Shit, 27 games in charge, regardless of the outcome, has to be a better career move than turning it down because they wouldn't guarantee the job beyond October 3.

If Valentine is going to burn arms out (be it Aceves or someone else) or keep burying the young guys for the likes of Podsednik and Ross, and he's doing it out of spite or because he no longer gives a shit, they absolutely can't let him continue in the job just to save face or avoid potentially awkward interim situations.

[YTF]

How about BobbyV be a true professional and do what's required of a manager to earn his pay for the last month? That means no late arrivals, no picking stupid fights with the press, and going with lineups that are in the long-term interest of the club. If he won't do it, suspend his ass.

And how long does it take to determine wheather he's doing it or not? Why prolong things? At this point, with just 4 weeks left in the season why not just fire his ass?

[YTF]

The odds of a new guy running off an 18-9 finish is unlikely and you worry about in the event t happens. If you keep Valentine, you get another month of negative press, and go into the offseason with a disinterested fan base and a clubhouse of guys who want out (we've already heard the stories about how no one wants to sign here, how long until there are rumors of a Pedroia trade request, for example?). There's no reason that Bogar can't manage the rest of the way and be let go in the offseason, it's highly unlikely the new hire will want him back (and if he's actually under consideration, wouldnt giving him the reins for a month be a good thing?),

If the team was playing hard and competing an there wasn't any drama, I'd be fine with keeping Bobby, but none of that is the case.

Perfectly put.

Edited by YTF, 03 September 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[Rough Carrigan]

Shouldn't the new guy get a fresh start, untainted by the disaster that was the 2012 Red Sox? And if you bring in an interim manager now, how do you not hand him the permanent job if he rights the ship, gets a little lucky, and goes 18-9 down the stretch?

If you want to hire someone who isn't currently in the clubhouse to manage the club in 2013, you should let BV play out the string, unless you think he's going to make Ace pitch until his arm falls off. If that's a concern, then of course you fire him now -- though getting a coach to take the manager's job on an interim basis might be easier said than done. If you were Bogar, and the FO told you you weren't a candidate to manage next season, would you want any part of the interim gig? I wouldn't.

Why not? If Bogar, for example, does a decent job and even though they don't go anything like 18-9 down the stretch, they stop looking listless and pathetic and the word gets around that the clubhouse was fixed under Bogar, then isn't that a nice little item on his resume for when Bogar goes interviewing for a managerial job?

And what are the chances that they'd tell him he'll never get the job next year before giving him the interim gig? Probably about zero. Even if that's their sentiment, they'll give him the impression that it's possible so that he has that as motivation.

Edited by Rough Carrigan, 03 September 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[Cellar-Door]

Why not? If Bogar, for example, does a decent job and even though they don't go anything like 18-9 down the stretch, they stop looking listless and pathetic and the word gets around that the clubhouse was fixed under Bogar, then isn't that a nice little item on his resume for when Bogar goes interviewing for a managerial job?

And what are the chances that they'd tell him he'll never get the job next year before giving him the interim gig? Probably about zero. Even if that's their sentiment, they'll give him the impression that it's possible so that he has that as motivation.

The problem of course is that if it turns around even somewhat and the clubhouse improves, there is real pressure to keep Bogar, who I doubt they want. So it makes things harder for the next manager if he isn't a name (say.. Bo Porter, Martinez, Cora, Wallach etc.) Where letting Bobby finish lets them fire Bobby and hire a new manager, which helps both PR and helps the new manager since fans will be excited about the new manager no matter what as he isn't Bobby. Firing Bobby is a bullet in your gun, why waste it on the last month of this season, when you would get far more out of using it in the offseason.

[cannonball 1729]

Why not? If Bogar, for example, does a decent job and even though they don't go anything like 18-9 down the stretch, they stop looking listless and pathetic and the word gets around that the clubhouse was fixed under Bogar, then isn't that a nice little item on his resume for when Bogar goes interviewing for a managerial job?

The Brewers did exactly this with Dale Sveum back in 2008. It's really not that bad of a gig for an aspiring manager, nor is it particularly preclusive of hiring a new manager in the offseason.

[Doctor G]

The problem of course is that if it turns around even somewhat and the clubhouse improves, there is real pressure to keep Bogar, who I doubt they want. So it makes things harder for the next manager if he isn't a name (say.. Bo Porter, Martinez, Cora, Wallach etc.) Where letting Bobby finish lets them fire Bobby and hire a new manager, which helps both PR and helps the new manager since fans will be excited about the new manager no matter what as he isn't Bobby. Firing Bobby is a bullet in your gun, why waste it on the last month of this season, when you would get far more out of using it in the offseason.

I agree. They need to save the sound of the toilet flushing on this season until after it is over. it will resonate a lot more in October.
The only thing that changes this is if ownership believes Bobby is endangering the health of any of his players by the ways he uses them. If he does that he will get canned immediately.

[high cheese]

So I hear Bob Nightengale throw out two names tonight on ESPN radio:

Mike Scioscia
Dusty Baker

I'm taking cover even as I finish typing!

[Cumberland Blues]

Scioscia has six years left on his deal. If he gets fired he can take a few years off (well, six years) and not have to worry about working. Especially in Boston.

Holy crap - I had no idea on this so I looked it up and in 2009 Scioscia got a ten year, $50M extension!?! WTF - the Crawford & Lackey deals look sane by comparison.

[bosockboy]

So I hear Bob Nightengale throw out two names tonight on ESPN radio:

Mike Scioscia
Dusty Baker

I'm taking cover even as I finish typing!

This would be the last straw of a 15 month debacle. No way they do that.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The odds of a new guy running off an 18-9 finish is unlikely and you worry about in the event t happens. If you keep Valentine, you get another month of negative press, and go into the offseason with a disinterested fan base and a clubhouse of guys who want out (we've already heard the stories about how no one wants to sign here, how long until there are rumors of a Pedroia trade request, for example?). There's no reason that Bogar can't manage the rest of the way and be let go in the offseason, it's highly unlikely the new hire will want him back (and if he's actually under consideration, wouldnt giving him the reins for a month be a good thing?),

If the team was playing hard and competing an there wasn't any drama, I'd be fine with keeping Bobby, but none of that is the case.

For once Rudy and I are in perfect agreement.

I mean, this is ridiculous. An 0-7 road trip. 12 games under .500.

The team is in absolute shambles at this point and Bobby from multiple media reports has essentially checked out on the season. I see no reason not to dump his ass now and get someone who might be able to salvage something this month, just so we don't have yet another year ending in a complete shitshow of a September.

I've lost immense amounts of respect for ownership over the last calendar year. If they come out and decide to start the "healing" process now by firing Valentine and moving forward from this annus horribilis, that will help gain some of that respect back.

[jsinger121]

For once Rudy and I are in perfect agreement.

I mean, this is ridiculous. An 0-7 road trip. 12 games under .500.

The team is in absolute shambles at this point and Bobby from multiple media reports has essentially checked out on the season. I see no reason not to dump his ass now and get someone who might be able to salvage something this month, just so we don't have yet another year ending in a complete shitshow of a September.

I've lost immense amounts of respect for ownership over the last calendar year. If they come out and decide to start the "healing" process now by firing Valentine and moving forward from this annus horribilis, that will help gain some of that respect back.

They are better off continuing their suck in September to move up higher in the draft position that comes with a higher bonus pool allotment. I see no reason why they need to show anything in September.

[glennhoffmania]

Hell, if I'm Bobby, I'd want to get fired today, and get out of Dodge. What's in it for him, in terms of sticking around? He has no future in the game and knows it. My guess is they are trying to negotiate a buyout and he wants no part of it.

Hell, I bet he's threatening to leak all kinds of shit once he's canned. I mean, is there any explanation as to why he hasn't been fired? The team quit on him weeks ago. Doesn't say much for them, but says nothing for him. Dealt a crappy hand but made it much, much worse.

I agree with this 100%. He's made a tough situation infinitely worse with his bullshit. And I bet the reason he hasn't been fired yet is because the FO is terrified of what he's going to say once he's gone.

For what it's worth, Tim Kirkjian, a friend of Bobby's, said that Bobby just isn't the kind of guy who would ever quit. It's just not in his DNA. And Kirkjian is probably right as this job must be utter drudgery for BV.

Bullshit. For all intents and purposes he quit weeks ago and now he's sulking around about it. He's exactly who we thought he was, unfortunately.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

They are better off continuing their suck in September to move up higher in the draft position that comes with a higher bonus pool allotment. I see no reason why they need to show anything in September.

I think it's worth dropping a draft position or two to get some positivity in the organization heading into next year. They've had a relentless run of negative results for the last 11 months.

And that means shitcanning Valentine.

[sachilles]

My thought is if they didn't think Bogar was part of the communication break down in the club house, they might have already ditched Valentine. I'd think they'd want to be careful not to reward the second in command for helping to sink his boss.
Whether the Paw Sox manager is the right choice, and whether he wants the job are very good questions worth digging into further.

I'm betting, they've had the discussion with Valentine letting him know he's done at the end of the season. Giving him the choice to figure out a graceful exit, or face in season termination, with the full might of the Red Sox spin machine threatening. The man is a PR nightmare, that I think they are trying to avoid making the separation uglier than it already is likely to be.

If they trust Bogar, there is no reason he can't be running the ship, with a Bobby V figure head.

[Cellar-Door]

I think it's worth dropping a draft position or two to get some positivity in the organization heading into next year. They've had a relentless run of negative results for the last 11 months.

And that means shitcanning Valentine.

What is the real advantage to firing Bobby now though? Any positive feeling will wear off long before next season. The reason for keeping Bobby is that you can make his firing part of the larger offseason overhaul, it amplifies the positive feelings because it combines them with the inherent excitement of free agency.
Firing him now, gets a slight bump, (until the team continues to be terrible under an interim manager) the team isn't losing at this point because of Bobby, it is losing because there is no talent out there. Yesterday we started: Iglesias, Kalish, Ciriaco and Gomez, and brought Podsednik and De Jesus off the bench, those guys would struggle to be on the field for any team in the league.
This season is an un-salvageable disaster, and there will be no positive feelings about it until it is over, no matter who manages the last 20 games the post-mortem will be overwhelmingly negative. Keeping Bobby allows the FO to respond to those legitimate critcisms by firing him and coming out with a well-planned strategy for his replacement, how that will effect free agency etc. Firing Bobby now, putting in an interim manager, would be yet another in a long line of poorly thought out decisions made to placate the WEEI listening fan base with action rather than the best move for the team's future (Lackey, Crawford, Bobby V, and more have been this type of decision).

[TheoShmeo]

Bullshit. For all intents and purposes he quit weeks ago and now he's sulking around about it. He's exactly who we thought he was, unfortunately.

Not evenly remotely bullshit. Some people are quite capable of massively under performing on the job but, at the same time, are constitutionally incapable of saying "I quit." This is not a difficult or unfamiliar concept, SJH. Bobby could be willing to mail it in and act like an ass, and be unwilling to make it easy on the Trio by quitting. Hell, he might take some perverse pleasure in making them sweat the decision, especially if he feels that they let him down in some way. He might think that they owed it to him to support him more, for example. I'm not saying that's reasonable but BV's mind could be in that spot.

Unrelated: What if they fire Bobby and the team continues to suck and lose virtually every game under the interim manager? Does that detract a bit from the post-sesaon mantra or thought process that they excised one of the reasons for the 2012 Suck? Is it better for that reason to absorb the full hit now and start totally fresh in 2013?

To be clear, I want them to fire Bobby right now. I'm just thinking about reasons to keep him around and trying to wrap my head around how the team is thinking about this, as I don't assume it's out of abject stupidity or the like.

[glennhoffmania]

Not evenly remotely bullshit. Some people are quite capable of massively under performing on the job but, at the same time, are constitutionally incapable of saying "I quit." This is not a difficult or unfamiliar concept, SJH. Bobby could be willing to mail it in and act like an ass, and be unwilling to make it easy on the Trio by quitting. Hell, he might take some perverse pleasure in making them sweat the decision, especially if he feels that they let him down in some way. He might think that they owed it to him to support him more, for example. I'm not saying that's reasonable but BV's mind could be in that spot.

Perhaps, but we're just interpreting "I quit" differently here (and I'm not SJH, despite how much I'd love to be him). Obviously he hasn't resigned yet so he hasn't literally quit, but he has clearly quit on this team and this season. He's the classic active-negative personality and he seems to basically be saying, fuck this, I'm going to do whatever I want until you've had enough and fire me.

[someoneanywhere]

All that is well and good, and I don't necessarily disagree with any of it. But here's the worry, proceeding from the flaw in it: if you say he doesn't hav the horses to win, and you can't fire him because he doesn't have the horses to win, that rationale is not going to change in the offseason. If you can't can him now, based on that rationale, you can't can him come October. And you can't say clean the slate, either. How much cleaner can it get? We banged this season weeks ago.

I don't pretend that the owners of a billion dollar enterprise have to be consistent. My fear works in the opposite direction -- that the longer they say it's not his fault, the more they talk themselves into thinking that no-fault this year is a reason to keep him for next. They acted decisively to cut loose a number of players -- in season, mind you -- whose presence was problematic for clubhouse culture. No reason they can't do the same for a manager they players left don't want to play for.

[glennhoffmania]

The difference was that getting rid of those players may not have been an option in the offseason, while they can fire Bobby's ass whenever they want. I see your point, but I don't take it as an indication that he's more likely to be back next year.

But hey, I'm trying to be optimistic here.

[Cellar-Door]

All that is well and good, and I don't necessarily disagree with any of it. But here's the worry, proceeding from the flaw in it: if you say he doesn't hav the horses to win, and you can't fire him because he doesn't have the horses to win, that rationale is not going to change in the offseason. If you can't can him now, based on that rationale, you can't can him come October. And you can't say clean the slate, either. How much cleaner can it get? We banged this season weeks ago.

I don't pretend that the owners of a billion dollar enterprise have to be consistent. My fear works in the opposite direction -- that the longer they say it's not his fault, the more they talk themselves into thinking that no-fault this year is a reason to keep him for next. They acted decisively to cut loose a number of players -- in season, mind you -- whose presence was problematic for clubhouse culture. No reason they can't do the same for a manager they players left don't want to play for.

I don't think many if any people are supporting bringing him back. There was a clear advantage to moving the players when they were moved, they might have been harder or impossible to move in the offseason, they saved a ton of money, and it let them get a look at players who may contribute to the team next year. Bobby can be fired just as easily at no difference in cost. The next manager is almost certainly a current coach/manager on another club, so there is no chance to audition him, there is no tangible advantage to firing Bobby now. That is the difference.
I assume the "he doesn't have the horses" statement was aimed at my earlier post. To clarify, it wasn't a reason to keep Bobby beyond this season, but rather noting that if they fired Bobby now the team would still be awful, and any good feelings engendered by the firing would be wiped away by the team losing another 15+ games.

[TheoShmeo]

Perhaps, but we're just interpreting "I quit" differently here (and I'm not SJH, despite how much I'd love to be him). Obviously he hasn't resigned yet so he hasn't literally quit, but he has clearly quit on this team and this season. He's the classic active-negative personality and he seems to basically be saying, fuck this, I'm going to do whatever I want until you've had enough and fire me.

Some guys don't have the "literal quit gene." They don't want the "resigned" tag attached to their name. They don't want to risk losing some of the compensation. They just can't mouth the words, like some people can't say "I was wrong."

Bobby may be one of those people who just can't stomach expressly resigning, even if he has already checked out as a practical matter.

[YTF]

How do you in good conscience keep a guy around who now appears to be doing exactly what certain members of the team were accused of doing a year ago? Sans the chicken and beer, Valentine seems to be ill prepared, disconnected, nonchalant (and that's being kind) and pretty much indifferent to what's going on around him. Is THIS the last thing you want your team to remember about the 2012 season or would you rather their final thoughts on the season be that of a changing culture initiated by an ownership group that sincerely cares about the final month of an otherwise shitty season? Why expose your team to 4 more weeks of exactly what you're trying to prevent? Give them reason for hope. Don;t let them wonder if it's coming next year, give thenm a taste now. For Christ sake show them a commitment to change.

[mauidano]

Put the pitchforks, torches and rope down. There is nothing to be gained by "firing" Bobby right now. It will change nothing except a few fans who want blood no matter what. 27 games left? Incredibly small sample size for anyone. And Bogar???? Really??? This is the same guy most people on this board wanted to 'die in a fire" the past few seasons. The same guy who couldn't make a simple decision at third base. John Farrell? Really? A horrible record as manager of the Blue Jays. Worse than the incumbent in Boston right now. How about we focus on trying to evaluate the players who are here right now.

At the end of the day, the record isn't going to matter. The Sox don't make the play-offs. The Punto trade signified that. Let the Bobby V thing go, stop your emotional hysterics. Everyone gets evaluated from Ben on down to the coaches and players at the end of the season. Right now the only jobs that should be safe are Pedroia, Lester, Bucholz, Middlebrooks. Relax, you'll get your wishes at the END of the season.

[NomarRS05]

I think there's something to be said for setting a proper tone in the clubhouse going into next season. We just saw how the stink of September 2011 followed the team into 2012 and I think there's some merit to the idea that turning things around starting now may have a carryover effect in 2013.

This team appears dead on the field, and while Bobby V is not 100% responsible for that, he can't be helping. There's no downside to getting rid of him ASAP. I suspect that his ousting will bring with it a breath of fresh air that will lift a weight off that clubhouse.

[YTF]

Put the pitchforks, torches and rope down. There is nothing to be gained by "firing" Bobby right now. It will change nothing except a few fans who want blood no matter what. 27 games left? Incredibly small sample size for anyone. And Bogar???? Really??? This is the same guy most people on this board wanted to 'die in a fire" the past few seasons. The same guy who couldn't make a simple decision at third base. John Farrell? Really? A horrible record as manager of the Blue Jays. Worse than the incumbent in Boston right now. How about we focus on trying to evaluate the players who are here right now.

At the end of the day, the record isn't going to matter. The Sox don't make the play-offs. The Punto trade signified that. Let the Bobby V thing go, stop your emotional hysterics. Everyone gets evaluated from Ben on down to the coaches and players at the end of the season. Right now the only jobs that should be safe are Pedroia, Lester, Bucholz, Middlebrooks. Relax, you'll get your wishes at the END of the season.

Yeah, def need to keep Valentine around for that. Need to get a few more looks at that Podsednic kid. I think he's got a real future here. Seriously any guy coming in gets a small sample size to work with in a wins and loses sense, but do you see no value at all (one way or the other) in a 4 week audition to get a look at someone you may be considering for the job. It's not all rope, torches and pitchforks here. I was one of those a few weeks ago that saw no harm in letting Valentine manage out the season, but come on have you even seen his responses to legit questions lately? He doesn't want to be here.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

What I don't understand is this notion that whoever the interim manager is should they fire Valentine before the end of the season, he'd be auditioning for anything. Isn't the whole purpose of having that "interim" qualifier to signify that the guy is just a placeholder? He's a means to getting to the end of the season.

If you are going to fire Valentine, the decision should be 100% based on whether or not you want him out of the dugout and clubhouse, not whether or not you think his interim replacement has any kind of a future as the permanent manager.

Didn't the Brewers fire Ned Yost with two weeks to go in the season a few years ago, replacing him on an interim basis with Dale Sveum? They sure didn't treat that like an audition for Sveum. He guided them to a wildcard berth on the last day of the season before being ousted in the LDS. But that winter, they hired Ken Macha and "demoted" Sveum to hitting coach, which is where he stayed through Macha's tenure and into Roenicke's until the Cubs hired him.

I really see no reason why the Red Sox couldn't do the same thing with Bogar, or Royster or Ochoa or Magadan or even Arnie Beyeler. Ask him to manage the team for the final 20-odd games and that's it. No promises of more. I would think if any of them have aspirations of managing somewhere someday, they'd try to make the most of the chance, even if winds up being a small sample size and leads to nowhere within the Red Sox organization.

[YTF]

What I don't understand is this notion that whoever the interim manager is should they fire Valentine before the end of the season, he'd be auditioning for anything. Isn't the whole purpose of having that "interim" qualifier to signify that the guy is just a placeholder? He's a means to getting to the end of the season.

If you are going to fire Valentine, the decision should be 100% based on whether or not you want him out of the dugout and clubhouse, not whether or not you think his interim replacement has any kind of a future as the permanent manager.

Didn't the Brewers fire Ned Yost with two weeks to go in the season a few years ago, replacing him on an interim basis with Dale Sveum? They sure didn't treat that like an audition for Sveum. He guided them to a wildcard berth on the last day of the season before being ousted in the LDS. But that winter, they hired Ken Macha and "demoted" Sveum to hitting coach, which is where he stayed through Macha's tenure and into Roenicke's until the Cubs hired him.

I really see no reason why the Red Sox couldn't do the same thing with Bogar, or Royster or Ochoa or Magadan or even Arnie Beyeler. Ask him to manage the team for the final 20-odd games and that's it. No promises of more. I would think if any of them have aspirations of managing somewhere someday, they'd try to make the most of the chance, even if winds up being a small sample size and leads to nowhere within the Red Sox organization.

It doesn't have to be an audition, but could certainly serve as one IF you have any interest in that guy at all for the coming season. A place holder is fine if that's all you require, but by the same token your place holder could be motivated by the fact that he will treat this as an audition of sorts for future employment no matter where it is and the guys in the dugout might benefit from being around that sort of positive vibe going into the off season. Say whatever you like about Bobby but I think few would argue he's a defeated man right now and shows no real desire for the position he holds.

[Cellar-Door]

It doesn't have to be an audition, but could certainly serve as one IF you have any interest in that guy at all for the coming season. A place holder is fine if that's all you require, but by the same token your place holder could be motivated by the fact that he will treat this as an audition of sorts for future employment no matter where it is and the guys in the dugout might benefit from being around that sort of positive vibe going into the off season. Say whatever you like about Bobby but I think few would argue he's a defeated man right now and shows no real desire for the position he holds.

What is the objective though? I mean unless you have an internal candidate you are considering and want to audition (which I think most believe they do not) then the only reason to fire Bobby is for the sake of doing something. Doing it for PR and fan excitement is better left for the offseason where it has more impact. Doing it to win a game or two more isn't in the team's long term interests. I have yet to hear anyone come up with a strong reason to fire Bobby V in season other than some nonsense about "sending a message" or "building momentum" both of which can be achieved with more impact in the offseason.

[YTF]

What is the objective though? I mean unless you have an internal candidate you are considering and want to audition (which I think most believe they do not) then the only reason to fire Bobby is for the sake of doing something. Doing it for PR and fan excitement is better left for the offseason where it has more impact. Doing it to win a game or two more isn't in the team's long term interests. I have yet to hear anyone come up with a strong reason to fire Bobby V in season other than some nonsense about "sending a message" or "building momentum" both of which can be achieved with more impact in the offseason.

Nonsense? Really? You see no value at all in the guys seeing this, living this first hand over the next 4 weeks and hopefully ending the season on a somewhat positive note? It can have more impact after the season? Really you let the guys just circle the drain on this rudderless ship and on the way out the door after game 162 you say "No worries it's gonna be different next season."? That has more impact? You're all for keeping a guy on board who looks like he uses a fucking dart board to make out his lineup each day and surely seems like he's trying to get canned. That's the impression you want your guys to have of your organisation as they break for the season. Glad you're not running my company.

[mauidano]

Yeah, def need to keep Valentine around for that. Need to get a few more looks at that Podsednic kid. I think he's got a real future here. Seriously any guy coming in gets a small sample size to work with in a wins and loses sense, but do you see no value at all (one way or the other) in a 4 week audition to get a look at someone you may be considering for the job. It's not all rope, torches and pitchforks here. I was one of those a few weeks ago that saw no harm in letting Valentine manage out the season, but come on have you even seen his responses to legit questions lately? He doesn't want to be here.

How do you know he doesn't want to be here? How would you respond if you were trying to be run out of your job and your team was failing to little fault of yours? people need to forget the wins and losses right now. Management did when the Punto trade was made. Podsednik may be a piece next year. He's actually one of the few putting a good effort in. So really the lineup is not that relevant, just put the kids out there and do the best you can. Have some fun with it, be spoilers for the AL East.

[Cellar-Door]

Nonsense? Really? You see no value at all in the guys seeing this, living this first hand over the next 4 weeks and hopefully ending the season on a somewhat positive note? It can have more impact after the season? Really you let the guys just circle the drain on this rudderless ship and on the way out the door after game 162 you say "No worries it's gonna be different next season."? That has more impact? You're all for keeping a guy on board who looks like he uses a fucking dart board to make out his lineup each day and surely seems like he's trying to get canned. That's the impression you want your guys to have of your organisation as they break for the season. Glad you're not running my company.

Your company doesn't run in seasons that end prematurely like this one.
The idea that firing Bobby will completely change how guys feel and end the season on a positive note isn't based on anything.
Would the clubhouse be better under a different manager who everyone knows is getting fired after the season?
What would differentiate the Tim Bogar era from Bobby V?
There will be no ending on a positive note regardless of the manager, the team is a mess, there isn't the talent to win, and the veterans checked out as soon as the playoffs were no longer an option.
You are creating a fantasy situation in your mind that isn't realistic where somehow Bobby is the entire or even most of the problem, removing one manager isn't changing anything. The change will come when they clean house after the year and bring in a whole new coaching staff, and likely at least a few new players.
Firing Bobby now is shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, it is a move that does nothing but appease the lowest common denominator of fans with a fresh coat of paint over a rotting fence.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

What is the objective though? I mean unless you have an internal candidate you are considering and want to audition (which I think most believe they do not) then the only reason to fire Bobby is for the sake of doing something. Doing it for PR and fan excitement is better left for the offseason where it has more impact. Doing it to win a game or two more isn't in the team's long term interests. I have yet to hear anyone come up with a strong reason to fire Bobby V in season other than some nonsense about "sending a message" or "building momentum" both of which can be achieved with more impact in the offseason.

How about he's incompetent, is doing a piss-poor job, and has already endangered the arm of one pitcher on the roster with his negligent usage in the last five games? Lost season or not, he's doing more harm than good at this point.

I'd love to hear a strong reason to keep him around, because "what difference does it make?" isn't such a reason.

[Cellar-Door]

How about he's incompetent, is doing a piss-poor job, and has already endangered the arm of one pitcher on the roster with his negligent usage in the last five games? Lost season or not, he's doing more harm than good at this point.

I'd love to hear a strong reason to keep him around, because "what difference does it make?" isn't such a reason.

I've noted some of this already in this thread but, reasons not to make the change:
The PR impact on fan excitement is more valuable to the team in the offseason.
Firing him in the offseason allows you to have a plan in place to replace him instead of half-assing like they have done far too often recently.
Directly following the Bobby V disaster helps the new manager, with fans, the media, and most importantly the players.
None of the coaches have shown any indication of being competent at their own jobs never mind managing
The tiny chance that some players will be attached to the interim manager and as such feel about the new manager the way some of Tito's crew felt about Bobby before he even got to Spring Training.
Wins and losses are largely irrelevant for the rest of the season.
I disagree he is abusing pitchers at all (I assume you mean Aceves, but as they are supposedly stretching him out, and given his history I think the pitches he has thrown are not all that unreasonable with the possible exception of the 3rd inning in the Sept 1 game which was borderline.)

There needs to be real reasons to think a move will materially improve the team NEXT season to fire Bobby, and unless he actually starts abusing pitchers I don't see it. I think (and I'm guessing the team does as well) that letting Bobby finish the season and writing the whole thing off in full allows you to go into the offseason and address all the problems with this team, rather than firing him and pretending the other underlying and larger problems aren't there, or possibly muddying the waters if they go on a fluke winning streak under whichever barely competent coach they promote to interim manager.

Edited by Cellar-Door, 04 September 2012 - 06:05 PM.

[MoVaughnsTruck]

How about he's incompetent, is doing a piss-poor job, and has already endangered the arm of one pitcher on the roster with his negligent usage in the last five games? Lost season or not, he's doing more harm than good at this point.

I'd love to hear a strong reason to keep him around, because "what difference does it make?" isn't such a reason.

You can play the blame game all you want, but the reason this is the most regrettable season in decades is not because of the manager.

I'd wager that BV has forgotten more about baseball than most of us will ever know.

[TheoShmeo]

You can play the blame game all you want, but the reason this is the most regrettable season in decades is not because of the manager.

I'd wager that BV has forgotten more about baseball than most of us will ever know.

I agree that it's not solely because of the manager but Bobby has in my view played a role in the never ending suck of this season.

It's believable that the chemistry on this team, and the effort of some of the players, would have been better without such a polarizing manager. Yeah, they "misbehaved" on some level last season, so it's overly convenient to pin all the blame Bobby for some of what's happened off the field. But still, it's not a stretch to think that Bobby's unfiltered gums and at times bizarre behavior had a negative impact on the clubhouse and the team's performance. And I think for most fans having Bobby around has made the team less likable.

That said, to the extent that you are saying that the players, and specifically the pitchers, deserve the lion's share of the blame, I think most people would agree. I certainly would.

Speaking of polarization, I find the vehemence with which the "Fire Bobby Now Dammit" posters express themselves to be pretty unique for this place. The only thing that I think is inarguable is that there are credible arguments on both sides. Now I know that Bobby is infuriating and polarizing, but posters like Cellar-Door (and hopefully me) have posted some credible reasons to wait. Whether you agree with those reasons or not, I don't understand just dismissing them fully and saying with such certitude that firing Bobby right this second is the only sane course of action. And, again, I do think they should fire him now.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 04 September 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[DanoooME]

The PR impact on fan excitement is more valuable to the team in the offseason.

That's debatable; either way, I don't think you can put a significant value on it.

Firing him in the offseason allows you to have a plan in place to replace him instead of half-assing like they have done far too often recently.

You can't have that plan in place no matter when the manager is fired? With all of the issues they've had this year, I'd be surprised if the FO hasn't started on a plan already.

Directly following the Bobby V disaster helps the new manager, with fans, the media, and most importantly the players.

If I'm reading this correctly, it shouldn't matter when Bobby goes then.

None of the coaches have shown any indication of being competent at their own jobs never mind managing

I'm sure this mostly refers to Bogar as 3B coach, It's already been pointed out in multiple threads previously that 3B coach and manager (or even bench coach) require completely different skill sets and just because someone doesn't do well at one doesn't mean he's completely incompetent at another.

The tiny chance that some players will be attached to the interim manager and as such feel about the new manager the way some of Tito's crew felt about Bobby before he even got to Spring Training.

Agreed there is a tiny chance this could happen, but the manager isn't a puppy, so I don't think it would be a major issue one way or the other.

Wins and losses are largely irrelevant for the rest of the season.

Agreed, so this shouldn't have any bearing one way or the other on the decision.

I disagree he is abusing pitchers at all (I assume you mean Aceves, but as they are supposedly stretching him out, and given his history I think the pitches he has thrown are not all that unreasonable with the possible exception of the 3rd inning in the Sept 1 game which was borderline.)

Tough to say one way or the other, but given the relationship between Bobby V and Aceves, it could be likely that Bobby doesn't care what happens to Aceves. Aceves is really the only candidate you could possibly say is being abused.

To me, if nothing else, you can relieve a lot of the tension in the clubhouse by getting rid of Bobby now. The players may not play better, but at least they might relax a little and maybe there won't be as much drama surrounding the team. I can see both sides of the argument, because no matter what they do for the rest of the season, it won't make that much of a difference either way. I'd vote for canning Bobby, but I don't feel strongly either way.

edit: took out a superfluous sentence.

Edited by DanoooME, 04 September 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Sums up the season pretty well.

I guess the real question is, what quality candidate is really going to come here next year? No one worth their salt would touch this mess. I suppose Beyeler might given it's a promotion and his first major league job, but getting someone from outside the org may well be impossible.

[cannonball 1729]

Sums up the season pretty well.

I guess the real question is, what quality candidate is really going to come here next year? No one worth their salt would touch this mess. I suppose Beyeler might given it's a promotion and his first major league job, but getting someone from outside the org may well be impossible.

I doubt that. The Sox are one of only 30 managerial positions in the majors; there's just not enough supply of jobs for candidates to be that picky. If the Astros could hire a strong candidate like Brad Mills despite the fact that he was basically going to be cannon fodder, the Sox should be able to get somebody good.

[wutang112878]

I guess the real question is, what quality candidate is really going to come here next year? No one worth their salt would touch this mess. I suppose Beyeler might given it's a promotion and his first major league job, but getting someone from outside the org may well be impossible.

This season was simply a mess, and there are a lot of issues for the next manager to address, but this is still one of the best jobs in baseball. This isnt a situation where say a TB is trying to attract a good manager for a small market, in a crappy park and minimal talent. We are in a big market, will have a big payroll, have some talent on the roster and have some internal issues to fix. A smart candidate should realize this has the potential to be a great situation, because things like payroll and talent could be more difficult to come by in most other markets.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The Astros didn't have endemic (and public) organizational dysfunction at every single level. They just sucked because they lacked talent. In that regard Mills got off easy.

You think Dave Martinez is going to want to come here, from a very well run org in Tampa, to this Titanic-level disaster? I think not.

You guys need to move on past this "best jobs in baseball" stuff and step back and take an outsider's perspective. It's clearly NOT one of the best jobs in baseball, it's a job where even winning the World Series twice isn't enough to avoid a management-directed trashing on the way out the door, where the GM isn't allowed to hire his own man in the seat, where the entire club is under-performing and where the media is rapacious in its ferocity.

If this was supposed to be one of the best jobs in baseball how come we got stuck with the clownish incompetent in the seat now?

2007 was a loooooong time ago in baseball terms. And it may not matter much anyway if Lucchino's still making the decisions: the last two managers he hired have been Valentine and Grady Little. That's a track record that calls for a good dose of seppuku.

[Super Nomario]

The Astros didn't have endemic (and public) organizational dysfunction at every single level. They just sucked because they lacked talent. In that regard Mills got off easy.

Drayton McLane announced he was selling the Astros just a year after Mills was hired. That's a level of dysfunction beyond what the Red Sox have.