650 replies to this topic

[pjr]

This is from a Peter Abraham interview with Tom Werner on boston.com today. Sounds like Bobby is done.

http://www.boston.co...hqIJ/story.html
So how does he evaluate Bobby Valentine’s job as manager?

Werner’s answer was perhaps telling about what ownership is thinking.

“I don’t really want to get into that today,” he said. “I don’t want to talk too much about him. But he’s had a challenging year. I think, as we’ve said before, he’s doing a good job.”

Will Valentine return in 2013?

“I don’t really want to go there,” Werner said. “I think we all thought we’d bounce back more this year.”

[Harry Hooper]

The contrasting next section of that interview was key:

But Werner was expansive in his praise for general manager Ben Cherington, who replaced Theo Epstein 10 months ago.

“I thought for example, that he was extremely impressive in his press conference [that announced the Dodgers trade],” said Werner. “But it’s not just that he’s articulate. Ben is methodical, he’s thoughtful. He’s a good manager, he’s a good leader.

“We give him high marks in how he’s dealt with the challenges this season, and he’s going to be with us for a long time.

“We just have to be more disciplined. One of the things we’ve talked to Ben about is supplementing his staff with a few more evaluators. I’m confident that we’ll get back because now we have the resources and the talent with Ben, and under Ben, to do so.”

[bosockboy]

Great news.....hard to bring him back under any circumstances now.

[SoxScout]

Did they put a muzzle on Larry? Tom is the one doing a lot of the talking lately.

[Rough Carrigan]

1. Bo Porter
2. Torey Lovullo
3. Dave Martinez

Okay, I admit I had to look up who the hell Bo Porter is. He's the third base coach for the playoff bound Washington Nationals. (Boy, wish our team was a contender like the Nationals!). And he was in the running for a couple of managing jobs in the last few years.

Why is he a good candidate?

[Rough Carrigan]

Did they put a muzzle on Larry? Tom is the one doing a lot of the talking lately.

Wasn't Larry the one who hired him? Don't know what an abrasive old man saw in an abrasive old man, but this is two managerial hires essentially by Larry, Grady Little and Bobby Valentine. LL should probably stick to other sections of the organization.

[Cellar-Door]

Okay, I admit I had to look up who the hell Bo Porter is. He's the third base coach for the playoff bound Washington Nationals. (Boy, wish our team was a contender like the Nationals!). And he was in the running for a couple of managing jobs in the last few years.

Why is he a good candidate?

The same reason as any of the names being thrown around. Former Player, well respected, has risen up through the coaching/managing ranks.
Porter is supposedly a strong presence who commands respect. He also coaches baserunning and outfielders in WAS and is known for innovative drills.
Interesting interview here: http://nats320.blogs...d-presence.html
He talks about how baserunning tells you a lot about a team because it is a selfless act, also how the Nats were terrible at baserunning before he came in.

More in depth interview with fangraphs here: http://www.fangraphs...league-manager/
Talks about using data, setting a lineup, defensive positioning, bunting, pitch counts, and adapting your managing style to the roster.

[Harry Hooper]

The CHB and co. will have a field day with that football-carrying drill.

Bring on Bo with Matt Stairs as bench coach. Get Mazzone for pitching coach. Prosper.

[LeoCarrillo]

Speier first to call for V's head. (And in typically Speierian well-reasoned manner)

http://www.weei.com/...e-decision-mana

[TheoShmeo]

Whoa, let's be fair, says Nicky.

■ Bobby Valentine, Boston — Still a 50-50 proposition as to whether he stays. With the team gutted, Valentine should do well with grooming younger players for bigger roles. He’s done that with Pedro Ciriaco, for one, and had begun with Will Middlebrooks. Ryan Kalish could be the next outfielder groomed for a bigger role next season when he is completely healthy and over his shoulder surgeries. (Dustin Pedroia had the same shoulder issues as Kalish and said you don’t feel better until the following year.) Ownership is fair-minded and realizes that this mess was not Valentine’s fault. Most managers get more than one clean year to show what they can do.

http://www.bostonglo...xBuJ/story.html

Edited by TheoShmeo, 02 September 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[YTF]

Valentine needs to go and the sooner the better. Originally I saw no real need to make the move until the off season, but honestly he just doesn't seem to give a fuck and THAT is exactly the type of attitude that the FO was trying to remove from this team, not instill. Worse yet leaving this group of players in his hands as he seems to be trying to get himself fired sends a message that the FO doesn't really give a fuck either. Also........ am I the only one wondering what the fuck he's trying to do or prove to Aceves. The guy's been basically a 1 inning pitcher all season and since serving his suspension he's thrown 143 pitches in 7 2/3 innings over 4 games (5 days) including 60+pitches in 3 innings of work last night. Even Aceves doesn't deserve that. Say what you want about his tenure as closer, but the guy's has been fairly useful and flexible during his time here. He should have been just a short term fix to a long term problem this season but the team continued to trot him out there as their closer even when it was becoming apparent that he wasn't the solution.

[Doctor G]

At this point Bobby Valentine's focus is not the Boston Red Sox. it is Bobby Valentine.

Time to pull the plug on this TV show.

[maufman]

BV isn't going to make the club's long-term chemistry materially worse in the next four weeks. The only risk in keeping him aboard is that he'll misuse the pitchers. The risk of firing BV and bringing in an interim manager is that the team will play well and the players will like the interim guy, leaving the FO in a tough spot if they don't want to give him the job on a permanent basis.

I never liked BV, so his apparent misuse of Aceves is enough to push me into the "fire BV immediately" camp, but if the FO's confidence in him isn't similarly shaken, I can see why they prefer to let BV play out the string.

Edit: Should note that I'm reading a lot into Werner's interview -- the strong vote of confidence in BC, coupled with evasion on BV's future, has me convinced that BV is certain to be sacked at the end of the season, if not before.

Edited by maufman, 02 September 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[scotian1]

_{John Farrell was criticized yesterday by JAys radio announcers for not pinch running for 45 year old Omar Vizquel. He was on second with two out and represented the tying run. With two out, Jays hitter singled to center and Vizquel was thrown out at the plate. This was with a couple of young speedsters on the bench. And in the bottom of the eighth, the tying run was on third and the Jays couldn't bring him home. Farrell has been far from perfect as a manager, many Sox fans are romanticizing about his role as Sox pitching coach,two completely different roles.}

[Cuzittt]

This may be odd... but I was reading a puff piece in the Projo... and it hit me that the best manager for this team may already be in the organization. And, the Red Sox may very well place him in the position after the Pawsox end their playoff run.

Meet Arnie Beyeler

[Rough Carrigan]

"Whoa, That's one of my sources!," says Nicky.



http://www.bostonglo...xBuJ/story.html

Fixed it for ya.

[dcmissle]

Is it an old-school thing, an 'our-thing' thing, or something else that unites the three?

When you're losing by 8 runs, 9 runs, 18 runs, and you're stringing those losses together, you're done.

Ben has just made his bones. He owes it to himself -- and to us -- to get his guy in there as the next manager, or walk over "philosophical differences".

[soxfan121]

This may be odd... but I was reading a puff piece in the Projo... and it hit me that the best manager for this team may already be in the organization. And, the Red Sox may very well place him in the position after the Pawsox end their playoff run.

Meet Arnie Beyeler

Develop talent and promote when the level is no longer challenging. 3 years in Portland, two (very successful) seasons at Pawtucket, a lead-by-example manager who visibly works hard with everyone. Ben has been his direct supervisor for his entire Red Sox tenure. He has some relationship history with almost every player on the current roster but isn't part of the current shitshow.

I love this idea. Beyeler in 2013.

[Doctor G]

I would like to see Hale get the chance. Now that we are one year removed from the Francona era, I don't see how DeMarlo's previous experience can be viewed as a negative. He might also get a fair treatment by the more negative elements of the media.

[bosockboy]

Love the Beyeler idea. It's hard to conjure up any reason to not fire BV tomorrow. They have flatlined.

[941827]

Love the Beyeler idea. It's hard to conjure up any reason to not fire BV tomorrow. They have flatlined.

As suggested above, I doubt they will promote the AAA manager while the Pawsox are in the playoffs.

[bosockboy]

As suggested above, I doubt they will promote the AAA manager while the Pawsox are in the playoffs.

I'd interim Bogar for the remainder of the season.

[CrouchingTonyHiddenPena]

This may be odd... but I was reading a puff piece in the Projo... and it hit me that the best manager for this team may already be in the organization. And, the Red Sox may very well place him in the position after the Pawsox end their playoff run.

Meet Arnie Beyeler

Very nice read. Seems as though he could be as plausibly successful as any of the other leading candidates names we've heard thrown around thus far. It sounds as though he'll get a chance sooner rather than later somewhere also.

[Harry Hooper]

I'd interim Bogar for the remainder of the season.

Lou Gorman and Joe Torre would disagree.

[SoxScout]

OAKLAND, Calif. — With the losses mounting, including today’s 6-2 loss to the Athletics, Red Sox manger Bobby Valentine has appeared increasingly weary, even disengaged, as though he knows the axe is about to fall. .......

If the Red Sox continue to get blown out over the next three days in Seattle against the equally dreadful Mariners, or if there’s more infighting like Saturday night’s dugout dust-up between Dustin Pedroia and embattled reliever Alfredo Aceves, it’s worth wondering seriously whether Valentine will have a seat on the charter flight back to Boston.

How difficult has this week been for the embattled manager? “What difference does it make?” Valentine said after today’s game, almost whispering.

When Lauber is writing stuff like this...

[RedOctober3829]

As @MikeSilvermanBB first reported, Cherington, Henry both will be in Seattle, but sources says to not look to much into it

Cherington had trip planned a while ago, and Henry was scheduled to attend meetings

Rob Bradford

http://www.twitter.com/bradfo

[ItOnceWasMyLife]

This may be odd... but I was reading a puff piece in the Projo... and it hit me that the best manager for this team may already be in the organization. And, the Red Sox may very well place him in the position after the Pawsox end their playoff run.

Meet Arnie Beyeler

Sounds like the anti-Valentine. I'm on board too.

I haven't been as anti-Bobby V as many. I felt he deserved a chance. He didn't really get much of one, and I was ready to give him another one. But with the post Punto Trade performance, I just can't see it anymore. Time to move on. I love promoting from within at my work. Sounds like A.B. (after Bobby?) has earned his shot.

Edited by ItOnceWasMyLife, 02 September 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[mauidano]

Bobby is here for the duration. Get over it haters. He will ride out the season along with the rest of the doomed. This steam sucks regardless of him. Not even Terry Francona could have survived this nightmare. He had enough issues of his own last couple seasons. Bobby may not be here next year but he'll make it the rest of the year. Losing is draining on everyone from the ownership down to the fans. Managers get too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. No matter who he has run out on the field, they stink. But look what he's had to work with. David Copperfield couldn't make that junk work.

[maufman]

Aside from the respect issues that managers who never played in The Show occasionally face, how would Beyeler run spring training for the big club? Is the ability to handle big leaguers on short-term rehab assignments probative of his ability to manage the egos in a big-league clubhouse over the course of a full season? Are there other issues posed by the fact that he's never been part of a big-league clubhouse in any capacity?

Experience is overrated, but this is not a good place or time for on-the-job learning, and seems like Beyeler would have more to learn than other first-time managers who might be considered for the job.

[OCD SS]

Has anyone ever given an explanation as to why Dave Martinez's name never seems to get an serious consideration?

[Van Everyman]

PeteAbe:

General manager Ben Cherington will join the team in Seattle for the final series of what so far has been a winless road trip. Team officials said that was his plan right along.
As of yet, there are no signs the Sox will return to Boston with a new manager. But that could change if there is not some flicker of life...
Valentine, in word and deed, seems resigned to his fate. He is not the sort to resign, but with Cherington in Seattle you have to wonder if some sort of move will be made.
The mood around the team is funereal at this point. The Sox aren't going to accomplish anything tangible before the end of the season....But Arnie Beyeler or Tim Bogar might at least get the team to play a respectable brand of ball.

I'm not a hater, Mauidano -- I actually liked what Bobby did to keep this team in it for as long as he did. But I think the sharks are circling at this point.

Edit: link

Edited by Van Everyman, 02 September 2012 - 11:06 PM.

[Harry Hooper]

FWIW, Edes was on WBZ around 11:45 and siad he had just talked to Ben and asked directly about Valentine's fate given the presence of Ben and John Henry in Seattle. Ben's reply was "There's nothing going on except a bad losing streak."

[941827]

Bobby is here for the duration. Get over it haters. He will ride out the season along with the rest of the doomed. This steam sucks regardless of him. Not even Terry Francona could have survived this nightmare. He had enough issues of his own last couple seasons. Bobby may not be here next year but he'll make it the rest of the year. Losing is draining on everyone from the ownership down to the fans. Managers get too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. No matter who he has run out on the field, they stink. But look what he's had to work with. David Copperfield couldn't make that junk work.

When is the last time you heard about a manager showing up to the park only three hours before game time because he had to pick up his son at the airport?
When is the last time you heard a manager claim not to know where various guys had been placed in his lineup?
When is the last time you heard a manager admit that he had to change his lineup at the last minute because he was wrong about what hand the opposing pitcher threw with?
When it the last time you saw a player literally leap out of the way rather than being patted on the butt by his manager because he so dislikes his manager?
When's the last time a reliever on a team out of the playoffs threw 143 pitches over five days?
We're long past the "Francona couldn't win with these guys" trope. The guy is embarrassing himself and the organization at this point. Further, if BV (or whoever is making out the lineup card these days) is going to keep Kalish planted on the bench while Podsednik and Ross play every day, he is doing very real damage to the long-term prospects of the organization.

[Cellar-Door]

When is the last time you heard about a manager showing up to the park only three hours before game time because he had to pick up his son at the airport?
When is the last time you heard a manager claim not to know where various guys had been placed in his lineup?
When is the last time you heard a manager admit that he had to change his lineup at the last minute because he was wrong about what hand the opposing pitcher threw with?
When it the last time you saw a player literally leap out of the way rather than being patted on the butt by his manager because he so dislikes his manager?
When's the last time a reliever on a team out of the playoffs threw 143 pitches over five days?
We're long past the "Francona couldn't win with these guys" trope. The guy is embarrassing himself and the organization at this point. Further, if BV (or whoever is making out the lineup card these days) is going to keep Kalish planted on the bench while Podsednik and Ross play every day, he is doing very real damage to the long-term prospects of the organization.

Some of those are legitimate issues (getting the handedness of the pitcher wrong) Some are not (getting stuck in unusually heavy traffic.), some are likely him fucking with the media (Pretending he didn't know Pods was batting third).
I disagree about Kalish, he has shown himself to be nowhere near ready for everyday at bats in the majors and sending him out there to be totally overmatched is detrimental to his development. Ross is a player who has a good shot to be on this team next year and is the best hitter on this team at present, he should be out there everyday.
The idea that he is embarrassing the organization is silly, few if any people outside this board think that, what is far more embarrassing is that our pitchers are terrible, and we have almost no hitters who should be regulars in a major league lineup. There is no reason not to have Bobby play out the string, and valid reasons not to want an interim manager for the remaining games.

[JakeRae]

I disagree about Kalish, he has shown himself to be nowhere near ready for everyday at bats in the majors and sending him out there to be totally overmatched is detrimental to his development. Ross is a player who has a good shot to be on this team next year and is the best hitter on this team at present, he should be out there everyday.

Kalish hit .252/.305/.405 two years ago as a 22 year old in 179 MLB PA. That performance was reasonably in line with his AA and AAA performance of the same year (AA was much better, AAA moderately better).

While he has looked completely overmatched in MLB this year, he has certainly shown himself to be ready for MLB at bats prior to this year. This team isn't competing for anything at this point. Additionally, looking at this as a choice between Ross and Kalish is silly. Ross should be playing everyday. So should Ellsbury. However, there is no good reason to continue to give playing time to Podsednik. The one blessing of being bad enough to be out of the playoff hunt for September is that it grants the opportunity to let prospects play through their struggles in MLB and adjust without any pressure related to winning games. Even if he is overmatched, he needs to be able to play at this level by the start of 2014 so the organization would be best served by getting him as much experience as possible right now while they have a no consequences opportunity to do so.

[SoxScout]

Brian MacPherson with a skewering

[MHead81]

Has anyone ever given an explanation as to why Dave Martinez's name never seems to get an serious consideration?

I am going to be disappointed if he isn't managing the team in 2013. He seems like the perfect fit, even moreso now that The Punto Trade went down. I'd love to see what he can do with a roster constructed of many young players, filled in with our few remaining vets and some '03 Ortiz/Mueller/Millar-type signings/acquisitions.

(Why isn't there a poll?)

[bosockboy]

Didn't Martinez decline the opportunity to interview last winter?

[canderson]

Assuming LAA misses the playoffs, I'd think Mike Scioscia gets replaced by Tito. You'd have to think Scioscia would be part of a short list if that came to fruition (as if that makes anything better).

[BosRedSox5]

If Bobby isn't coming back, I think we need to cut ties right now and put in an interim manager. This team positively died since the trade. I didn't except them to go on a hot streak without AGone but they're totally lifeless.

Anyway, does replacing Bobby V, combined with the trade raise Ben Cherington's stock? He didn't want Valentine, and he orchestrated the trade. Doesn't this give him more leeway with ownership? He'll likely be allowed to choose his own manager.

[Harry Hooper]

Assuming LAA misses the playoffs, I'd think Mike Scioscia gets replaced by Tito. You'd have to think Scioscia would be part of a short list if that came to fruition (as if that makes anything better).

Scioscia in a Bill James-inspired organization? To quote Cyrano de Bergerac, "No thank you! No, I thank you and again I thank you!"

[Bowlerman9]

Assuming LAA misses the playoffs, I'd think Mike Scioscia gets replaced by Tito. You'd have to think Scioscia would be part of a short list if that came to fruition (as if that makes anything better).

Scioscia has six years left on his deal. If he gets fired he can take a few years off (well, six years) and not have to worry about working. Especially in Boston.

Edited by Bowlerman9, 03 September 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[someoneanywhere]

Sosh ain't going anywhere. Manny Acta, on the other hand, might get axed. In that case, I'd think you have to talk to him.

[Al Zarilla]

When it the last time you saw a player literally leap out of the way rather than being patted on the butt by his manager because he so dislikes his manager?

Who was that? My Sox attention has fallen about 98%.

[Al Zarilla]

If Bobby isn't coming back, I think we need to cut ties right now and put in an interim manager. This team positively died since the trade. I didn't except them to go on a hot streak without AGone but they're totally lifeless.

I agree, using the old saw they can hopefully "hit the ground running" next year if they get a new manager in there now. There isn't as much new stuff for players to get used to as there is in changing football coaches, but why not get the guys used to the new manager's signs, philosophies, gameday arrival times, BP, fielding practices, etc. Yeah, not a lot of things change in baseball, manager to manager, compared with football, and there isn't much time left anyway. They won't do it.

[Rasputin]

Assuming LAA misses the playoffs, I'd think Mike Scioscia gets replaced by Tito. You'd have to think Scioscia would be part of a short list if that came to fruition (as if that makes anything better).

Game threads would be interesting.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Who was that? My Sox attention has fallen about 98%.

Aceves. About the 34 second mark of this video...

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...py_24422203&v=3

[Al Zarilla]

Aceves. About the 34 second mark of this video...

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...py_24422203&v=3

Thanks. So, from core guys coming into the season, viz., Youkilis and Pedroia, to one of the teams wackos, Aceves, a lot of guys couldn't stand him.

[JimBoSox9]

Aceves. About the 34 second mark of this video...

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...py_24422203&v=3

Huh. First time I've seen that and it told a way different story than I imagined. Aceves didn't look hot at Pedroia at all, Pedey looked more intense than angry, even when Royster came over. The real moment was post-ass-pat-dodge, Ace's body language ticks up and he points his thumb at Bobby while yelling at the coaches.

Or am I just seeing what I want to see?

[Saints Rest]

I wonder if there may be a little meeting afoot wherein JWH and/or BC tell BV that he is not coaching next season and thus he now has two choices:

• Improve his attitude, at least with the press, finish the season and make a face-saving "retirement for personal issues" (or some similar euphemistic bullshit)
• Get fired today.

As for 1, by "improve his attitude with the press," I'm thinking that he needs to go re-watch Bull Durham (or watch a season's worth of Belichick press conferences) and start handing out positive BS spin on every question:

• We're just trying to win every game
• We're jsut doing what's best for the team
• He did some good things out there and some bad things.
• We all need to try to get better every day.
• It is what it is.