122 replies to this topic

[SoxScout]

IanMBrowne: Bob McClure has been relieved of his duties as Red Sox pitching coach.

[Yazdog8]

Whoa. I know he wasn't Bobby V's guy. I wonder if he's going to be the fall guy for Lester and Beckett's struggles this year. Either way, he didn't seem like the best fit, and a hasty hire last year.

[E5 Yaz]

Four pitching coaches in four seasons. Five if the staff is fired and Niemann doesn't carry on next year. Somewhere along the line that's got to mess up some of the pitchers

[someoneanywhere]

You've got to wonder about the timing. How is it that the guy in the top is guaranteed through the season (at least) but the underling gets the heave-ho in August? That tells me it's not a performance-based fire, or at least that performance wasn't and can't be alone among the factors.

[Jinhocho]

Maybe he helped Shoppach wordsmith the text to ownership...

[DLew On Roids]

One down, 25 (give or take) to go.

[pjr]

Looks like that is it for coaching changes .

http://twitter.com/PeteAbe
Cherington said "no" when asked if he would be making other changes to the coaching staff

[mt8thsw9th]

Why did he end up as pitching coach, anyhow? It looks like he was hired as a scout and roving instructor, and then...all of a sudden he's pitching coach.

[wutang112878]

I wonder if the powers that be thought McClure was one of the leaks and that plus performance was enough for them to get rid of him. Otherwise, I dont see what else might be motivating them to do this now

[maufman]

There has been a tendency here to assign blame to LL and BV for this season's debacle, but the McClure hiring falls squarely on Ben, right?

[Joe Shlabotnick]

The Sox had a pitching coach? Who knew!

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I believe McClure relieved himself of his duties as pitching coach months ago. This is merely a formality.

[SouthernBoSox]

I believe McClure relieved himself of his duties as pitching coach months ago. This is merely a formality.

I'm trying to think back... Did any player cite McClure as helping them with some sort of issue they were having?

Hell, did any player cite McClure for anything? He just seemed so absent.

[Harry Hooper]

I wonder if the powers that be thought McClure was one of the leaks and that plus performance was enough for them to get rid of him. Otherwise, I dont see what else might be motivating them to do this now

The remainder of the season is preparation for 2013. McClure was not in the picture for next season, but it looks like BobbyV is.

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

I wonder if this has something to do with his "vacation"

[Savin Hillbilly]

You've got to wonder about the timing. How is it that the guy in the top is guaranteed through the season (at least) but the underling gets the heave-ho in August? That tells me it's not a performance-based fire, or at least that performance wasn't and can't be alone among the factors.

Agreed. If they just decided he was the wrong guy (an easy enough decision given the results, one would think), why not wait till after the season? This suggests some kind of serious incident or issue.

[rembrat]

There has been a tendency here to assign blame to LL and BV for this season's debacle, but the McClure hiring falls squarely on Ben, right?

Whoever told him to stop scouting and start pitchcoaching?

So now Valentine's guy takes over? Seems like he has someone's ear.

[uncannymanny]

There has been a tendency here to assign blame to LL and BV for this season's debacle, but the McClure hiring falls squarely on Ben, right?

I don't see why, if LL is assumed to be behind the upper-most coaching decision, we would assume Ben had control of any of those choices, especially one where a guy is promoted just after hire for seemingly no reason.

[trekfan55]

Four pitching coaches in four seasons. Five if the staff is fired and Niemann doesn't carry on next year. Somewhere along the line that's got to mess up some of the pitchers

After Farrell, it seems the Sox hired two coaches who either did not fit or were lousy. I really do not remember any mound visit by Curt Young (and he is heavily praised for his work in Oakland), and McClure was never a good fit for the job. While this will not cure any of the ills facing the Sox now, and many other moves are needed, I am happy to see them make one now, and clearly say it is about performance.

Now, let's see them hire a real pitching coach next season.

[Rudy Pemberton]

This seems overdue; this guy didn't get results, didn't talk to his manager, and when he was gone, the pitching was actually really good. The starters have been so bad, especially early in games, that it at least seems like they aren't prepared, and the pitching coach needs to answer for that. That he was fired, instead of reassigned to the job he was hired for, is interesting.

[Cellar-Door]

I think it makes sense. The team is evaluating Bobby V in preparation for making the off-season decision on him. Bobby pretty clearly wasn't happy with McClure, and McClure was doing a shitty job, so now Bobby gets to have his guy in there for the final month, and the team gets to evaluate Niemann in case they decide to keep Bobby V.

This seems overdue; this guy didn't get results, didn't talk to his manager, and when he was gone, the pitching was actually really good. The starters have been so bad, especially early in games, that it at least seems like they aren't prepared, and the pitching coach needs to answer for that. That he was fired, instead of reassigned to the job he was hired for, is interesting.

McClure was only hired as a special assistant because they didn't have a manager yet. It was likely for the scenario where they could have gotten Farrell or another manager under contract elsewhere who wanted his guy in there and they were willing to let pick his own guy.

[mauidano]

This seems overdue; this guy didn't get results, didn't talk to his manager, and when he was gone, the pitching was actually really good. The starters have been so bad, especially early in games, that it at least seems like they aren't prepared, and the pitching coach needs to answer for that. That he was fired, instead of reassigned to the job he was hired for, is interesting.

My point exactly.

[JimBoSox9]

I remember when he was first hired, I read a couple quotes from him that left me thinking he was an old-school type with not a lot of love for progressive techniques, and thus, assumed he sucked. I am glad that both my thirty seconds of research and general worldview have been validated on this day.

[BoSoxLady]

I wonder if this has something to do with his "vacation"

He left the team to tend to a "personal" matter which I heard was a sick child.

[YTF]

You've got to wonder about the timing. How is it that the guy in the top is guaranteed through the season (at least) but the underling gets the heave-ho in August? That tells me it's not a performance-based fire, or at least that performance wasn't and can't be alone among the factors.

From what I understand the guy was a pill popping womanizer, but I can't tell you where I got that from.

[Sprowl]

Four pitching coaches in four seasons. Five if the staff is fired and Niemann doesn't carry on next year. Somewhere along the line that's got to mess up some of the pitchers

To lose one pitching coach may be regarded as a misfortune. To lose two looks like carelessness. To lose three is closer to malpractice.

You've got to wonder about the timing. How is it that the guy in the top is guaranteed through the season (at least) but the underling gets the heave-ho in August? That tells me it's not a performance-based fire, or at least that performance wasn't and can't be alone among the factors.

Agreed. If they just decided he was the wrong guy (an easy enough decision given the results, one would think), why not wait till after the season? This suggests some kind of serious incident or issue.

I think heads had to roll now, and here was a head nobody would miss.

I believe McClure relieved himself of his duties as pitching coach months ago. This is merely a formality.

I'm surprised Gary Tuck didn't get sacked at the same time. Valentine has been reported without contradiction as having had problems with Youkilis, Shoppach, Tuck and McClure (Bobby V has been reported as having had problems with others as well, but those were largely denied by the principals).

Nieman, formerly the rehab co-ordinator, gets the head job. He didn't exactly get spectacular results from the rehabs of Matsuzaka and Hill, so his ascension appears to be by default.

[maufman]

You've got to wonder about the timing. How is it that the guy in the top is guaranteed through the season (at least) but the underling gets the heave-ho in August? That tells me it's not a performance-based fire, or at least that performance wasn't and can't be alone among the factors.

An organization can fire a poor performer without firing his boss, especially when someone else made the decision to hire the poor performer in the first place.

[86spike]

Today they threw in the towel on Crawford and fired McClure.

I think the white flag has officially been raised on 2012.

Good riddance.

[Mugsys Jock]

Most memorable McClure moment: recent game when Valentine had been ejected. McClure came out to the mound to talk to, and probably pull, a struggling Aceves...when Ace told him to get the hell off the filed and practically shoved him back into the dugout.

Aceves showed him all the respect he deserved.

[One Red Seat]

The remainder of the season is preparation for 2013. McClure was not in the picture for next season, but it looks like BobbyV is.

This is the part that scares me. Can this be seen as evidence that Bobby V will be back? God I hope not

[Rough Carrigan]

I'm trying to think back... Did any player cite McClure as helping them with some sort of issue they were having?

Hell, did any player cite McClure for anything? He just seemed so absent.

I think he's at least sort of been credited with straightening out Andrew Miller.

[AZBlue]

I thought that it was a group effort with Andrew Miller, including the AAA coaches. Not sure how McClure gets all of the credit for Miller.

[Laser Show]

Best piece of news I've heard from this team in a while. It's nice to see that they're finally admitting they're screwed and making the first of hopefully many changes.

In regards to his replacement, I would do almost anything to get Dave Duncan here (though a long shot with his wife sick).

[E5 Yaz]

In regards to his replacement, I would do almost anything to get Dave Duncan here (though a long shot with his wife sick).

Dave Duncan is not walking through that door. He's under contract. His wife is dying. He won't return to baseball w/o Tony LaRussa as manager.

I know you're not the only person who has been typing this, but if we can get those who are to stop doing so one at a time, it will be an improvement.

[Van Everyman]

The upcoming 8-week campaign by Cafardo to hire Rick Peterson is going to be really fun.

[Doctor G]

Mc Clure certainly was unsuccessful in utilizing his personal experience in the Bard starter conversion.

Bard' s possible trip back to Boston can't be dismissed as a small part of the reason for the timing of this move which should have happened weeks ago.

[kieckeredinthehead]

The fact that McClure was gone during Interleague makes the effect harder to parse, but the month of June (i.e. when he was on leave) was by far the best pitching month for the Red Sox all season. Like, we had an elite pitching staff when McClure wasn't with the team.

[Van Everyman]

Excellent spin here:

@nickcafardo: The Red Sox thought of firing Bob McClure about a month ago but Bobby V felt the two were communicating and McClure was temp retained.

[Harry Hooper]

Barring some major foul-ups in the remainder of the 2012 campaign, Niemann would seem to be the pitching coach in 2013 if BobbyV is retained.


Leo Mazzone is presumably available, and had some interesting things to say on ESPN about the Red Sox last week:

It all starts at the top. It's called the chain of command. With the chain of command, I have experience with both ends of it. When I was with the Atlanta Braves, there was a chain of command that was in place that was never broken. It was never broken by the players. It started with ownership, with Ted Turner. Then it started with the general manager, John Schuerholz, the manager, Bobby Cox, and then the coaching staff and the players. So you had a chain of command that was never broken.

Then I go to Baltimore and find out why they're losing, The chain of command was always broken, where players got to voice their displeasure to the front office, which took away the power from the manager and nobody really knew who was running what. Basically, what it was, was a bunch of players finding excuses for losing. This is what's going on [with the Red Sox].
...
So they bring in Bobby Valentine to change the atmosphere there, and I know Bobby...I've known him for a long time. He's very...he's [laughs] different, OK? But you know what? He's one of the brightest individuals I've ever been around. One of the smartest guys I've ever been around, and I totally think he knows what exactly he's doing.

LINK1

Well, what can be done [at this point of the season] is this: number one, you've got to get your pitching squared away. I mean, you know, that's the bottom line. I think the difference in the Red Sox this year is their pitching staff. I've been watching them pitch, and everybody is off target, etc.

But what I'm saying is this -- I don't think anything can be done. I went through it in Baltimore. When they asked me, they brought me in and said "What do we do to fix this thing?" And when I told them, they didn't like it. So therefore nothing was done. So therefore it got back to the good ol' country-boy-school guys and the good ol' boys.

And guess what? I don't think anything can be done. I don't think they can make it into the postseason. I hope they do, cause I hope they do for Bobby Valentine's sake.
...
Here's what happens with guys. If stuff drops off a little bit, OK? If stuff drops off...then they say, "Well, your stuff is down...your radar gun readings are down. Here's what you do. You work with what you've got." OK?

And pitching has never changed, and this is not "old school" thinking. I don't want to hear this "generation gap" b.s. What I'm saying is this -- there is nothing more to pitching than commanding a fastball and changing speeds. I would have them down there in the bullpen WORKING ON THEIR CRAFT TO GET SHARPER. Let me tell you something, guys. The reason for this is there's not enough practice sessions going on down in the bullpen to prepare for their games.

LINK2

Edited by Harry Hooper, 21 August 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[biollante]

Strange hire and strange fire. Looks like Bobby V. is here for another year though. Bobby V. will have an uphill battle. If he didn't say such strange things, I would be sorry for him.

[E5 Yaz]

Until recent weeks, after all sides agreed to try harder to make it work, Valentine’s conversations with McClure were dominated by one- or two-word sentences. Bench coach Tim Bogar and bullpen coach Gary Tuck spoke to the manager even less at times.

Valentine, in the first year of a two-year contract, had one group of coaches he bonded with (those he had a hand in hiring) and another he didn’t (those he inherited).

“After a while, I just figured that was the way it was going to be,” Valentine said. “If I needed information, I found a way to get it.”

The situation grew so tense in late June that Bogar and McClure, two of the coaches Valentine inherited, considered asking for reassignment within the organization, according to two major league sources.

Cherington stepped in shortly after, urging Valentine and the coaches to put aside their differences.

First baseman Adrian Gonzalez has attempted to serve as a bridge between the factions, taking concerns the coaches had about Valentine’s strategy back to the manager.

http://www.boston.co...p3nL/story.html

Edited by E5 Yaz, 21 August 2012 - 01:11 AM.

[uncannymanny]

Holy shit, so our franchise player ($$$ wise at least), is shuttling info between the coaches who are being absolute babies? Fire Cherington and every single coach. Total and unacceptable loss of organizational control.

[Rasputin]

Are we supposed to believe that the coaches just refused to communicate with Valentine?

Fuck man, you're the manager. If you need some info from a coach, you go ask him. If he doesn't tell you, you ask him again until he fucking tells you. What the fuck is hard with that?

[TomRicardo]

Hi my name is Bob McClure you might remember me from such lackluster coaching efforts like 2012 Red Sox pitching staff.

[E5 Yaz]

The humiliation had come earlier, during a radio interview Aug. 1, in which manager Bobby Valentine was asked a question about visits to the mound and in the course of answering it said, "When Bob McClure was on his two-week vacation. [pause] I'm sorry, not vacation, his two weeks away from the team. …"
What Valentine tried to portray as a momentary slip is all that you need to know about the degree to which his relationship with McClure had deteriorated. McClure had taken an absence from the team to attend to a pressing medical emergency involving one of his toddlers. That is not the kind of circumstance that anyone would ever refer to as a "vacation." Unless, of course, Valentine's intent was to take a clear shot at a subordinate who had angered him by being incommunicado while he was away.
A clue that this was all coming to a head may have come Sunday in New York, after a weekend of stories written by reporters sympathetic to Valentine repeatedly made reference to how he had been saddled with coaches not of his own choosing.

http://espn.go.com/b...t-last-together

[uncannymanny]

Ownership also needs to communicate to the players, whoever they retain after purging what can be purged, that they will not be involved in any players' issues next season, period. Playing time issue? Talk to the manager. Didn't get the answer you liked? Talk to the manager. Contract problem? Have you agent call us. ZERO exceptions. They also need to get their hands out and let the manager and GM run the team. I was somewhat indifferent on all of this, but the info coming to light is atrocious, and paints the players as caught in the middle (and maybe this is the point) of a bunch of 40-80 year old men acting like children and fools.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Best I can tell Mike Maddux is no longer under contract after this season. Double his salary and call it a day.

[mauidano]

"Hello. Jeff Passan? Yeah; this Bob McClure. Yeah, THAT Bob McClure. Got a few minutes?"

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

Although his methods may be in question, it appears that Gonzo is asserting himself as a vocal leader in this clubhouse. Maybe one thing positive to take away from this season would be a perrenial MVP candidate signed for 7 years who is taking an active role in the leadership of a team desperately needing it. Hopefully Adrian is learning a lot about what to do and what not to do in that regard. He may or may not be doing it right, but at the very least he's trying...... it can't be easy.

I think this bodes well for the future if he becomes a respected leader who players can trust.

Edited by Carl Everetts Therapist, 21 August 2012 - 06:31 AM.

[NomarRS05]

I don't know who looks worse here, Cherington or Valentine. Cherington put Valentine in a bad position by giving him lame duck coaches. Bobby V handled the situation in the worst way possible. Either way it's another embarrassing anecdote as this team continues to plunge into laughing stock status.