34 replies to this topic

[Lose Remerswaal]

We know the starting thing didn't work out.

We know the bullpen thing wasn't working out the end of 2011

So he's down in Pawtucket, and this is what he's so far:

29 Innings pitched, 26 hits, 28 runs (24 earned), 29 BB, 30 K, 9 HBP, 9 WP

This month:

8/16: 1 inning, 1 hit, 2 walks, 1 HBP, 3 earned runs
8/14: 1/3 inning, no hits, 4 walks, 1 K, 2 earned runs
8/11: 1 inning, 3 hits, 1 walk, 2K, 3 earned runs
8/9: 1 inning, 1 hit, 2 walks, 1 K, 1 earned run
8/6: 1 inning, 1 walk, no earned runs
8/4: 1 1/3 innings, 1 hit, 2 walks, 2 K, 2 earned runs


How is this possibly helping Daniel Bard or the Boston Red Sox (or even the Pawtucket Red Sox) to keep throwing him out there to fail over and over again?

I don't know if the problem is mental, physical, or what. If it's physical, then obviously he needs to be shut down. If it's mental (Steve Blass disease?), then he needs to be either shut down, or dropped down to a level where he can rebuild confidence. Did he piss someone off in the front office and the response is just to destroy him? THIS is what his recent teammates should be bitching about, not about leaving Jon Lester in to take a single shellacking.

He's arbitration eligible next year, I doubt he'll see a salary increase no matter what happens here on out, but just 12 months ago we all thought he was our next Home Grown Closer for the forseable future, and now he's a sad, forgotten piece of what once was a pretty good team.

[TheoShmeo]

What the wide world of sports are the Red Sox supposed to do with him? He's sucked ass since he went down to Pawtucket. And he sucked ass in September, 2011.

Bashing the organization is all the rage, but sometimes it's just that the players aren't playing.

[mt8thsw9th]

I suppose in the wide, wide world of sports, it might be natural if he ends up in Kansas City.

[86spike]

The only way for him to work out his issues is to work through them. He needs to keep throwing and working on recovering his mechanics. You don't do that by sitting.

[DanoooME]

How else is he going to get his issues worked out? Shutting him down at this point without any sort of injury reason is counterproductive. He needs to keep working out his kinks in side sessions and then still needs to apply them in games. I don't think sending him to Portland, Salem or even Lowell is going to help him that much. He needs time on the mound and a pitching coach that can focus on his needs. Maybe that's the solution, hire or appoint someone to work with Bard and Bard only to help get him straightened out. The minor leagues only have a couple of weeks left anyway, so what could it hurt at this point to keep going? He'll have the entire offseason to clear his head and come back next spring.

[Max Power]

He's a little old for the Roy Halladay treatment, but maybe a trip to A ball wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. He can work on his mechanics and keeping the ball over the plate without worrying about getting crushed.

[someoneanywhere]

Granted, it seems that he is stuck in quicksand.

But it bears repeating that he has been in exactly this situation before -- failed starter, trying-to-find-it reliever -- which in my book is cause for optimism. He knows he can get out of it, and he knows he can get it back. It's not like a Blass situation where the poor guy just lost it, and then lost belief. Bard has lost it and found it and lost it again, which makes me think he can find it again.

Get him away from the ballyard for a few months, let him clear his mind, and let him fully accept the mentality of professional fireman. He'll be back.

[Hendu's Gait]

Somehow (within rules, if any, and within their schedules) get Forbes and Fox (UNC-Chapel Hill coaches) involved, to see if they can bring back the magic.

[Lose Remerswaal]

Some quick replies:

1) I don't think I'm bashing the organization. I'm asking if there's a plan and if anyone has said that having him work through it at AAA makes the most sense because our best minor league pitching coach for the job is at AAA
2) Work through the issues? How has that been working out so far? There are only 2 weeks or so left of minor league ball. He's not heading towards rebuilding confidence by constantly failing at AAA. And control issues probably won't get any better at a lower level. Are they using a sports psychiatrist (where is Bob Tewksbury when you need him?)? If he finishes this season continuing to walk a guy/inning or more, he's not going to feel any better about himself at 2013 Spring Training.
3) Considering the investment the team has in its players, hiring a coach/trainer/shrink for the player seems to me to be a small investment to try to get this guy back to being one of the top relievers in baseball.
4) I wouldn't shut him down unless he's not healthy. I don't know what speed his fastball is going, or how his slider is biting. I don't know why the media is ignoring this story and not talking to him and to his manager and to Bobby Valentine about what's going on.

I don't see the team doing any of these things. Just throwing him out there every 2-3 days to fail again.

Edited by Lose Remerswaal, 17 August 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[mabrowndog]

Bard should have been sent to Fort Myers after his first disastrous week or two in Pawtucket. Unless there was some contractual restriction or CBA clause I'm unaware of that would have prevented such a move, I'm perfectly comfortable questioning the organization's handling of him. That in no way exonerates him for his own under-performance, but I'm not sure the club has put him in the best environment for correction, recovery and improvement.

[mt8thsw9th]

Somehow (within rules, if any, and within their schedules) get Forbes and Fox (UNC-Chapel Hill coaches) involved, to see if they can bring back the magic.

Bard had a K/9 under 9, and his numbers were quite underwhelming at UNC. He was a complete tools, not performance pick. There wasn't much magic there. He found his "magic" in 2008 at Greenville, and as a reliever.

He may have been a bit overworked in 2010 and 2011, and broke down last September, so his performance this year may be tied to something physical, but the starter conversion thing was just a bad idea from day one. Whatever is wrong, they should shut him down and send him to Fort Myers to get his shit together. This is just embarrassing him at this point.

[TheoShmeo]

Bard should have been sent to Fort Myers after his first disastrous week or two in Pawtucket. Unless there was some contractual restriction or CBA clause I'm unaware of that would have prevented such a move, I'm perfectly comfortable questioning the organization's handling of him. That in no way exonerates him for his own under-performance, but I'm not sure the club has put him in the best environment for correction, recovery and improvement.

I hear you and Lose, but at the same time, I think that when a player goes from a nearly elite high leveraged relief ace to whatever Bard was after his first few weeks in Pawtucket, there are precious few good solutions. If they had sent him all the way down to Fort Myers or A ball and things hadn't worked out, the critics would have been able to grab the low hanging fruit tied to the demotion being too extreme. My point wasn't so much to be defensive for the organization but to say that Daniel Bard himself bears a major chunk of the blame.

That said, I assume that there are some pitching gurus out there who might be able to help straighten him out and the Sox have thus far not connected Bard with such a person.

I'd be surprised if Bard wasn't working with Tewksbury or some other sports shrink, as at least some of his problems are between the ears.

[Rudy Pemberton]

I'm really curious as to what the Sox plan is regarding his future. Starting is out; and he's not going to be the closer...so you going to pay a few million for a set-up man with his current issues? Plympton made a great point in a different thread; the likely plan that best covers the Sox is to bring him to arbitration, and if he's still having these problems next year, you cut him and pay out the termination pay (1/6 of his contract, right?). I suspect he doesn't get right this year, if at ever...but the sad reality is that given his service time,mileage, and lack of a clear future path, I suspect the team is less focused on getting him right than they would have been a few years ago.

[maufman]

Someone wrote a master's thesis on this subject, using Mark Wohlers and Rick Ankiel as case studies.

[BosRedSox5]

http://www.grantland...turns-pawtucket

Pretty good article about his struggles in AAA... and this was written in July. Hope he can rekindle the stuff that made him so great.

[Dick Pole Upside]

I bet he'll be up September 1 with roster expansions to finish the year here. Shutting down won't do any good, and the change in venue hasn't changed his performance, so why not bring him back up and see what happens?

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

I bet he'll be up September 1 with roster expansions to finish the year here. Shutting down won't do any good, and the change in venue hasn't changed his performance, so why not bring him back up and see what happens?

Maybe because we've already seen that there's no one in Boston who has any ideas as to how to get him right?

[Dick Pole Upside]

You're right, but at the rate the Sox are going through relievers, they haven't demonstrated that they aren't above burning Bard out in September as well. Unless he has another fiasco like Toronto where he hit a couple of guys, he'll throw some innings here and there in spots that are presently going to Tazawa.

[Lose Remerswaal]

But he's having those fiascoes in AAA where he's hitting guys and throwing Wild Pitches. Better you see what some of the kids can do than to continue to torture everyone (Bard included) by using him at the Major League level.

Unless you just want to use him against the Yankees. I'm in favor of that.


Edit: I wonder if they use him at Fenway today for the Futures game?

Edited by Lose Remerswaal, 18 August 2012 - 08:24 AM.

[Plympton91]

Isn't it the case that they don't have full time hitting and pitching coaches traveling with the A-ball teams? That might be why they don't send him down to Greenville or Salem. In Halliday's case, he went to the FSL, so probably to TOR main spring training site where all the organizational staff would have been. Actually an argument in favor of the FSL I guess.

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

You're right, but at the rate the Sox are going through relievers, they haven't demonstrated that they aren't above burning Bard out in September as well. Unless he has another fiasco like Toronto where he hit a couple of guys, he'll throw some innings here and there in spots that are presently going to Tazawa.

I see your point, but like Lose said, he really can't help anyone at any level right now. I happened to see one of his blowup appearances earlier in the month, and at this point he's like the pitching equivalent of a random number generator--once he starts into his motion, everything is up for grabs. I'd also be concerned about calling him back to Boston and strengthening the psychological association between "Fenway" and "failure."

[Cuzittt]

Isn't it the case that they don't have full time hitting and pitching coaches traveling with the A-ball teams? That might be why they don't send him down to Greenville or Salem. In Halliday's case, he went to the FSL, so probably to TOR main spring training site where all the organizational staff would have been. Actually an argument in favor of the FSL I guess.

No, there are full time pitching and batting coaches in every team for the Sox organization. The teams have no Base coaches.

Salem's pitching coach is Kevin Walker (Hitting is Rich Gedman).
Greenville's pitching coaches are Dick Such and Hector Mercado (Hitting is Darren Fenster).
Lowell's pitching coach is Paul Abbott (Hitting is Nelson Paulino).

[SoxScout]

ScottLauber: Daniel Bard definitely will rejoin #RedSox by September, maybe sooner, according to team source

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

There's a lot we don't know, obviously, but I'd really be interested in hearing the reasoning behind the team's conclusion that "just keep putting him back on the horse" is the best way to go at this point.

[BosRedSox5]

There's a lot we don't know, obviously, but I'd really be interested in hearing the reasoning behind the team's conclusion that "just keep putting him back on the horse" is the best way to go at this point.

You're right. I'd love to know the thought process... best I can figure is:

-It can't hurt, this is a lost season.
-Get the big league coaches involved so he can get prepped for 2013.

[Rasputin]

There's a lot we don't know, obviously, but I'd really be interested in hearing the reasoning behind the team's conclusion that "just keep putting him back on the horse" is the best way to go at this point.

It's really pretty simple. The options are to keep sending him out there or to stop sending him out there. Continuing to send him out there might have a minimal chance of producing an effective reliever this year but the downside is what, exactly? Is he going to pitch worse? Is there something to be gained by extending his offseason for a few weeks?

But I think it really comes down to this. He's healthy so he's playing.

[Reverend]

I bet he'll be up September 1 with roster expansions to finish the year here. Shutting down won't do any good, and the change in venue hasn't changed his performance, so why not bring him back up and see what happens?

I'm for anything that might help him regain his form, and the club will do what it will do. That said, I think it's worth recalling that last time he pitched at the MLB level, leaving him in rapidly deteriorated from being a baseball issue to an ethical issue given his lack of control.

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

It's really pretty simple. The options are to keep sending him out there or to stop sending him out there. Continuing to send him out there might have a minimal chance of producing an effective reliever this year but the downside is what, exactly? Is he going to pitch worse? Is there something to be gained by extending his offseason for a few weeks?

But I think it really comes down to this. He's healthy so he's playing.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the "continue to send him out there" option has failed miserably thus far, and to expect something to change by sticking to that plan meets the folk wisdom definition of insanity. I'd like to think the FO has something in mind besides that, because "hope" is not a plan.

The team doesn't need him, however healthy he might be. I'd shut him down, send him south and hook him up with a pitching coach, hypnotherapist, pharmacologist or whatever else seemed appropriate. The odds of success are uncertain, but they don't have to be very good to make it a more sensible option than sending him out there to kill or be killed.

[maufman]

They should send him immediately to an ashram in the Far East and tell him not to return until Spring Training.

I'm only half kidding. The problem lies between his ears; the fact that he can no longer throw a baseball is a symptom, and expecting a pitching coach to fix the underlying problem is a fool's errand.

Edited by maufman, 18 August 2012 - 05:27 PM.

[Rasputin]

I think it's pretty safe to say that the "continue to send him out there" option has failed miserably thus far, and to expect something to change by sticking to that plan meets the folk wisdom definition of insanity. I'd like to think the FO has something in mind besides that, because "hope" is not a plan.

The team doesn't need him, however healthy he might be. I'd shut him down, send him south and hook him up with a pitching coach, hypnotherapist, pharmacologist or whatever else seemed appropriate. The odds of success are uncertain, but they don't have to be very good to make it a more sensible option than sending him out there to kill or be killed.

I think it is safe to assume that he's working with whatever pitching coaches are available.

More to the point. He's a baseball player. His default state is to be playing baseball. If he is going to be not playing baseball there should be a compelling reason.

What do you gain from shutting him down? How is not working on the problem supposed to get you closer to fixing it?

[Sprowl]

You're right. I'd love to know the thought process... best I can figure is:

-It can't hurt, this is a lost season.
-Get the big league coaches involved so he can get prepped for 2013.

-He needs throwing practice.
-He might kill our rivals' best players.

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

I think it is safe to assume that he's working with whatever pitching coaches are available.

More to the point. He's a baseball player. His default state is to be playing baseball. If he is going to be not playing baseball there should be a compelling reason.

What do you gain from shutting him down? How is not working on the problem supposed to get you closer to fixing it?

Shutting him down =/= not working on the problem.

In addition to being a baseball player, he's a human being with a particular set of physical and psychological characteristics. I find the idea that he should be playing in games just because he can to be...uncompelling, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

[reggiecleveland]

I think you get this kid a really good hooker, a real class dame, and send him on cruise for three weeks and then tell him you will see him in the spring.

[Rasputin]

Shutting him down =/= not working on the problem.

Of course it does. Shutting down a player who isn't injured means you think he's too terrible to play and that no amount of coaching, practice, et cetera will make it any better, that he has to go away and start fresh some other time. That may be the case but there's an off season coming up and it's a pretty long one and if he's going to come to spring all fucked up then an extra month or so isn't going to make a damn bit of difference.

In addition to being a baseball player, he's a human being with a particular set of physical and psychological characteristics. I find the idea that he should be playing in games just because he can to be...uncompelling, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

He's not playing in games just because he can. He's playing in games because he's healthy, there's games scheduled, and there's no compelling reason for him not to be playing in them.

[OttoC]

...
He's not playing in games just because he can. He's playing in games because he's healthy, there's games scheduled, and there's no compelling reason for him not to be playing in them.

His 26 hits, 29 walks, 9 hit batsmen, and 9 wild pitches in 26.0 innings pitched for a team trying to win their division might be seen as a compelling reason to some. I don't think continually going out and pitching extremely poorly is the road to straightening his mental processes, nor will it help him regain the several miles-per-hour he lost off his fastball. Repetition in a non-pressure situation under the guidance of a strong coach and rebuilding his psyche might serve him better. Send him to the Florida complex.