141 replies to this topic

[Plympton91]

This is not exactly what I was saying, because this makes no sense. He is the manager. If he wants to play a player more who is on his roster, he should just do it. He doesn't need the GM to get rid of the player who will be losing playing time first. Still, it'll be good to see Lavarnway get more time behind the plate. With his offense and the fact that his defense has gone from the scouting world thinking he had no shot of his sticking at catcher to his winning Best Defensive Catcher for the IL in BA's minor league tools report this year (information acquired secondhand through SoxProspects landing page as the original article is behind a paywall), he's become a very exciting prospect.

Wow! That is a huge props to this organization, which has been criticized a lot (justifiably) lately. Put that one in the "Future is bright, glass half full" thread.

Also, can we cool it with the BV criticism just this once. Shoppach was already bitching about getting too little playing time behind Salty. I can only imagine what would have transpired if he was told to sit behind both Salty and Lavarnway. This isn't the case of Kevin Youkilis, where it seems like maybe you can claim that BV's caustic personality let to an ill-timed trade, it's a career backup catcher having a career year. If anything, it seems like Ben C should have moved Shoppach anytime between the all-star break and the trade deadline, and called up the player his manager wanted all along.

Once again, Ben C seems unable to get over the fact that the Team President and Owner decided not to hire a rookie manager to run a $180 million team with such strong personalities that they drove Francona to quit before he was fired.

Edited by Plympton91, 14 August 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[mauidano]

For who? The fans who don't know any better? What exactly is your point? Because making a mountain out of a 20 AB molehill puts the 'ass' in asinine (pardon the terrible pub).

If he had 2 hits in 22 AB's in KC and was "the catcher of the future", do you think anyone would be having this conversation? It's just the way it is in Boston and the magnified media mass hysteria machine. That's a well documented point over the years.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Can't figure this from the Mets' side. They're out of it, why get Shoppach now?

Six week tryout to be Thole's back-up next season?

JoelSherman1: "For those asking why #Mets did this: Why not? 6 week look to see if like someone who could give inexpensive platoon mate to Thole in '13."

[JayMags71]

A good GM could have gotten an interesting player for Salty one month ago

What does "interesting" mean in this context? Someone who wears a smoking jacket in the clubhouse as he holds salons discussing À la recherche du temps perdu? What would you consider the optimal deal for Salty or Shoppach? I'm agnostic on whether or not Ben is a good GM, but this trade doesn't prove anything either way.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Also, can we cool it with the BV criticism just this once. Shoppach was already bitching about getting too little playing time behind Salty. I can only imagine what would have transpired if he was told to sit behind both Salty and Lavarnway. This isn't the case of Kevin Youkilis, where it seems like maybe you can claim that BV's caustic personality let to an ill-timed trade, it's a career backup catcher having a career year. If anything, it seems like Ben C should have moved Shoppach anytime between the all-star break and the trade deadline, and called up the player his manager wanted all along.

Once again, Ben C seems unable to get over the fact that the Team President and Owner decided not to hire a rookie manager to run a $180 million team with such strong personalities that they drove Francona to quit before he was fired.

Why should we cool it with the criticisms of BobbyV?

Shoppach has proven not only to be a significant asset to the team's pitchers in relation to Salty (CERA lower by over 1.00 ER/9), but he's been great as a backup C at the plate this season, as well (.343 wOBA).

If the team's going nowhere, there's every reason for the team to have traded him to get Lavarnway everyday reps behind an MLB plate. If the team can get a long-term asset in return, there's reason to trade him. However, if the team still has a chance (I believe this is your position), or if the best that can be done is a PTBNL or cash, there's simply no reason to trade him.

Unless, of course, BobbyV wants him gone. In which case, it's another example of BobbyV's already well-documented inability to manage a clubhouse getting materially impeding the good of the team.

[Sprowl]

The trade helps to explain why Shoppach was getting so much playing time lately, even against RHP. He was on display, and showed competence. It's hard to judge whether this was another of Cherington's value-subtracting trades until the PTBNL is named.

Hearing that Valentine wanted Lavarnway to catch instead of Shoppach, as well as Bard to close instead of start, actually makes me feel sorry for Bobby the Fifth. He never really had control over his own team. It's no wonder that the players are now throwing him under the bus.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

What does "interesting" mean in this context? Someone who wears a smoking jacket in the clubhouse as he holds salons discussing À la recherche du temps perdu? What would you consider the optimal deal for Salty or Shoppach? I'm agnostic on whether or not Ben is a good GM, but this trade doesn't prove anything either way.

Roman Mendez is a 21-year old fireballer with a career milb line of 3.79 ERA, 9.3 K/9, and 2.89 K/BB.

Shoppach could have fetched someone like that at the trade deadline, I suppose.

[DanoooME]

If it's a PTBNL, it's probably someone on the 40 man of the Mets and would have to be carried as such by the Sox. They asked for some time to clear a spot since they needed to get Bailey up. Otherwise somebody from the lower levels and not on the 40 man would have been announced.

Or it's a recent draftee that can't be traded yet.

[Cellar-Door]

Roman Mendez is a 21-year old fireballer with a career milb line of 3.79 ERA, 9.3 K/9, and 2.89 K/BB.

Shoppach could have fetched someone like that at the trade deadline, I suppose.

YOU suppose. There is no reason to think the Red Sox turned down any good offers on Shoppach. He was made available and no one bit, preferring Soto and Suzuki. This PTBNL could end up being just as "interesting" as what they could have gotten at the deadline.

[trekfan55]

YOU suppose. There is no reason to think the Red Sox turned down any good offers on Shoppach. He was made available and no one bit, preferring Soto and Suzuki. This PTBNL could end up being just as "interesting" as what they could have gotten at the deadline.

This is the key. We cannot assume that Ben did not try to trade as many players as he could. The only one he found a taker on was Albers, that's what we know.

[TomRicardo]

Why would anyone want Soto over Stoppach?

[Buzzkill Pauley]

We cannot assume that Ben did not try to trade as many players as he could. The only one he found a taker on was Albers, that's what we know.

Yes we can.

There was no overt pursuit of prospects leading up to the deadline. In fact, at every level of management, the approach to the deadline was framed in terms of acquiring MLB talent for the "inevitable" winning streak that would propel them into the 2012 postseason. It was about the now, not rebuilding for the future.

LuckyL: "Ben Cherington and his Baseball Operations Staff will approach the July 31 trading deadline with their tireless work ethic. If someone can further help this club, and if the deal makes sense, we will be aggressive. We want to play October Baseball this year."

BobbyV: "I like my pitching. I like our defense and our offense. If Ben feels there is a way on improving what we have then I'll be all for that, too, but I don't see any gaping holes in our team."

BennyC: "We explored a lot of things that were bold, and maybe even got close to a couple of things, but we just didn't feel like there was anything of the big, bold variety that made sense for us right now."

And wouldn't you know it, the only trade completed involved an MLB player coming back in return.

Edited by Buzzkill Pauley, 14 August 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[Pumpsie]

I think JakeRae had it right -- the front office wants to give Lavarnway some big-league experience, but Bobby V doesn't seem to trust him behind the plate yet.

Exactly the other way around.

[Yaz4Ever]

So, I'm guess the PTBNL is likely not David Wright. Is that correct

[Cellar-Door]

Why would anyone want Soto over Stoppach?

Because he's 3 years younger and has better career numbers in just about every category?

[OCD SS]

If it's a PTBNL, it's probably someone on the 40 man of the Mets and would have to be carried as such by the Sox. They asked for some time to clear a spot since they needed to get Bailey up. Otherwise somebody from the lower levels and not on the 40 man would have been announced.

Or it's a recent draftee that can't be traded yet.

There's no way it's a recent draftee. they have 6 months to announce the PTBNL, and none of the draftees have been with the Mets the required 6 months that would get them past the one year deadline.

The Sox probably have a list of nobodies they can choose from and want to look a little longer. That or it will wind up being cash considerations; we're talking about a month and a half of a back up catcher for a team out of the race.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

There's no way it's a recent draftee. they have 6 months to announce the PTBNL, and none of the draftees have been with the Mets the required 6 months that would get them past the one year deadline.

The Sox probably have a list of nobodies they can choose from and want to look a little longer. That or it will wind up being cash considerations; we're talking about a month and a half of a back up catcher for a team out of the race.

Or it's a player that didn't, hasn't, or won't clear waivers, and they have to wait until after the season to acquire him.

Edited by Red(s)HawksFan, 14 August 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[RoDaddy]

20 AB isn't really a big enough sample size to make any kind of judgement.

Exactly. IMHO, Lavarnway has a huge ceiling - somewhere along the lines of a future 35 HR and 900 OPS guy, and future cleanup hitter on this team. And his defensive liability has changed seemingly overnight to an asset. This is his big shot and it wouldn't surprise me if he goes on an earlier-in-the-season Middlebrooks-like tear.

[lexrageorge]

I don't understand the angst. Shoppach was gone after this season. Lavarnway is their catcher of the future, while Shoppach was yet another fungible backup catcher. Yes, Shoppach was OK as the backup, but at this point in the season, we might as well see what Lavarnway has going for him. The PTBNL was probably the value 2 weeks ago.

[Sprowl]

BobbyV[/url]: "I like my pitching. I like our defense and our offense. If Ben feels there is a way on improving what we have then I'll be all for that, too, but I don't see any gaping holes in our team."

It's nice that Bobby likes his pitching, defense and offense. It's a pity they don't like him. I still think they should have traded Bobby for Ozzie Guillen -- our mistake for their problem.

I don't understand the angst. Shoppach was gone after this season. Lavarnway is their catcher of the future, while Shoppach was yet another fungible backup catcher. Yes, Shoppach was OK as the backup, but at this point in the season, we might as well see what Lavarnway has going for him. The PTBNL was probably the value 2 weeks ago.

What angst? Must people could read the writing on the wall when the Clubhouse Lawyer smear surfaced. I'm reading that posters expected him gone, are happy enough even without knowing the return, and are only disappointed that he wasn't traded earlier. I was surprised that he wasn't traded by the July deadline, but not knowing what returns were on offer, find it hard to be either surprised or pleased. I'm certainly not disappointed, though. Bring on the Lavarnway Strangeglove.

[OCD SS]

Or it's a player that didn't, hasn't, or won't clear waivers, and they have to wait until after the season to acquire him.

I think it is highly unlikely that the Mets traded a player of much/ any worth for the end of Shoppach's FA contract. To be a relevant PTBNL that player will have to have another full year of control, which is already orders of magnitude more than Shoppach really had.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Exactly. IMHO, Lavarnway has a huge ceiling - somewhere along the lines of a future 35 HR and 900 OPS guy, and future cleanup hitter on this team. And his defensive liability has changed seemingly overnight to an asset. This is his big shot and it wouldn't surprise me if he goes on an earlier-in-the-season Middlebrooks-like tear.

Considering that one of Salty or Shoppach should have had value (perhaps little, but some) to a contender before the deadline, yet the Mets are on the receiving end only after they're out of the race, makes me think this is not the case.

If BennyC wasn't looking for an established MLB player for either catcher at the deadline, I would be shocked. Almost as shocked as if he had actually gotten a good MLB player for either one.

[Rudy Pemberton]

It seems quite likely that Shoppach didn't have that much value. He was worth 1.35M in the offseason, has he really done anything to increase his value? He's the same guy he's always been; solid defensively, whiffs a ton, can't hit righties (although he has this year, it seems likely to be a fluke due to small sample size). How much is less than a half season of a backup catcher worth?

[lexrageorge]

Shoppach is a 32 y/o career backup who's contract was up at year end. Plus he's a reported pain in the ass to boot. At best, he returns a low level middling prospect prior to the deadline. Instead, they'll get a low level middling prospect at season's end from the Mets. Some of you are seriously overstating his pre-7/31 trade value.

[czar]

If BennyC wasn't looking for an established MLB player for either catcher at the deadline, I would be shocked. Almost as shocked as if he had actually gotten a good MLB player for either one.

You think Kelly Shoppach might have been worth an "established MLB player" at the deadline? The same Kelly Shoppach who contributed negatively (below replacement) offensively the last two years?

What laxrageorge is right; there are plenty of reasons to not be a fan of Cherington's (or Lucchino's, if you want to be snarky) moves, but using Shoppach as an example of some sort of colossal blunder? Please.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

You think Kelly Shoppach might have been worth an "established MLB player" at the deadline? The same Kelly Shoppach who contributed negatively (below replacement) offensively the last two years?

What laxrageorge is right; there are plenty of reasons to not be a fan of Cherington's (or Lucchino's, if you want to be snarky) moves, but using Shoppach as an example of some sort of colossal blunder? Please.

Did you even read my post?

I don't think Shoppach would be worth that. Not even remotely. That's why I would have been shocked. But I'll bet BennyC was still trying to get someone like Breslow for him -- an established MLB player. He's not worth that.

But Shoppach likely would have been worth a single non-top prospect with some upside to a contender. Someone like Mendez, or Lars, or McGuiness, or Fife, or Turpen...you know, the one of the type of prospects who the Sox always package up to get marginal or backup MLB talent.

Instead, we're probably looking at $500K salary relief for 2012 at most. I fail to see how such a trade makes the Sox better in the future. Even marginally.

I never said it was a colossal blunder, but it is a blunder. The same type of blunder that other BennyC trades have evidenced: terrible timing, poor return.

[AB in DC]

I'm more annoyed at management deciding to promote Lavarnway too late to get any meaningful offers for Shoppach. Not that the Sox would have necessarily gotten a better player in the open market (rather than getting stuck dealing with the team awarded the waiver claim), but it's a sign that management can't seem to coordinate two moves that seem to be directly tied to each other. It makes them look even more incompetent.

[judyb]

Did you even read my post?

I don't think Shoppach would be worth that. Not even remotely. That's why I would have been shocked. But I'll bet BennyC was still trying to get someone like Breslow for him -- an established MLB player. He's not worth that.

But Shoppach likely would have been worth a single non-top prospect with some upside to a contender. Someone like Mendez, or Lars, or McGuiness, or Fife, or Turpen...you know, the one of the type of prospects who the Sox always package up to get marginal or backup MLB talent.

Instead, we're probably looking at $500K salary relief for 2012 at most. I fail to see how such a trade makes the Sox better in the future. Even marginally.

I never said it was a colossal blunder, but it is a blunder. The same type of blunder that other BennyC trades have evidenced: terrible timing, poor return.

It's a blunder to not collect more of the same type of players they're always trading away because they have too many of them to squeeze onto their 40 man roster when it's time to protect them from the rule 5 and can't find any use for before they run out of options?

[JayMags71]

I fail to see how such a trade makes the Sox better in the future. Even marginally.

Maybe he's a giant, gaping asshole in the clubhouse. Large enough that simply putting him on a bus was good enough.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

It's a blunder to not collect more of the same type of players they're always trading away because they have too many of them to squeeze onto their 40 man roster when it's time to protect them from the rule 5 and can't find any use for before they run out of options?

Yes, it is. Because the minor leagues is a numbers game.

If the Sox get a hi-A pitcher who's got a bigger upside than Jeremiah Bayer or Will Latimer -- then it's better for the organization than getting salary relief for a current-year contract already written into the budget. At the very least, it's one more asset that can be spun off later.

Because even if Stephen Fife won't regularly out-pitch Roy Halladay, you still may be able to flip Daniel Turpen for Michael McKenry.



Edit:

Maybe he's a giant, gaping asshole in the clubhouse. Large enough that simply putting him on a bus was good enough.

Two questions then:

• Even if that's the case, how does this "trade" make the Red Sox better in 2013 and beyond?
• Assuming it is the case, why wasn't he traded earlier when his contract had more time-value?

Edited by Buzzkill Pauley, 15 August 2012 - 10:22 AM.

[Sprowl]

Maybe he's a giant, gaping asshole in the clubhouse. Large enough that simply putting him on a bus was good enough.

Maybe, but considering the source (Bobby V), maybe Shoppach was getting smeared in preparation for departure -- it certainly wouldn't be the first time that has happened on the Red Sox. A quick google search of Shoppach and "clubhouse lawyer" shows that nobody ever called him that in print before Valentine questioned his character.

I'm inclined to think that when a manager dislikes a player and smears his character to reporters, it usually says more about the manager than the player.

[JimBoSox9]

Did you even read my post?

I don't think Shoppach would be worth that. Not even remotely. That's why I would have been shocked. But I'll bet BennyC was still trying to get someone like Breslow for him -- an established MLB player. He's not worth that.

But Shoppach likely would have been worth a single non-top prospect with some upside to a contender. Someone like Mendez, or Lars, or McGuiness, or Fife, or Turpen...you know, the one of the type of prospects who the Sox always package up to get marginal or backup MLB talent.

Instead, we're probably looking at $500K salary relief for 2012 at most. I fail to see how such a trade makes the Sox better in the future. Even marginally.

I never said it was a colossal blunder, but it is a blunder. The same type of blunder that other BennyC trades have evidenced: terrible timing, poor return.

My problem is that you're assigning value to the PTBNL without evidence. As was pointed out upthread, the reason it is a PTBNL could be because the agreed-upon player can't be traded yet. It's premature to call it a blunder until we know the return, no?

[Buzzkill Pauley]

My problem is that you're assigning value to the PTBNL without evidence. As was pointed out upthread, the reason it is a PTBNL could be because the agreed-upon player can't be traded yet. It's premature to call it a blunder until we know the return, no?

As OCD mentioned up-thread, the PTBNL cannot be a recent draftee, because there's no open window between when 2012 signees are eligible to be traded, and when this PTBNL has to be named.

Other than recent draftees, who in the Mets organization fits this criteria?

And sure, if the return ends up being more than salary relief or someone the team cuts loose within three weeks of receiving, I'll be glad to reassess.

[OttoC]

There's no way it's a recent draftee. they have 6 months to announce the PTBNL, and none of the draftees have been with the Mets the required 6 months that would get them past the one year deadline.

The Sox probably have a list of nobodies they can choose from and want to look a little longer. That or it will wind up being cash considerations; we're talking about a month and a half of a back up catcher for a team out of the race.

Or, it could be a conditional pick: Shoppach plays in x games, pick from list A; Shoppach plays in fewer than x games, pick from list B, or some such.

[czar]

Did you even read my post?

My bad, I'll cop to flipping one of the two negatives in that sentence.

The rest of my point about Shoppach's value likely being near negligible regardless of what side of July 31st you were on still holds.

[trekfan55]

There are 2 issues here:

1. Shoppach was not traded before the deadline for a prospect of any kind.
2. Shoppach was let go for nothing (although that remains to be seen) via a waiver claim.

For # 1, we really do not know if the Sox were offered anything for Shoppach. They were carrying 3 catchers so one can assume they were taking offers for him. Maybe they saw nothing they liked. Maybe they tried to hold out for more.
For # 2, with the impending activation of Bailey necessitating a 40 man move, they worked out a deal with the Mets, who had claimed him.

That being said, are we really thinking that trading Shoppach, a catcher who is at most a backup guy, and who is gone after this year should really net something to make the team better in 2013?

[Buzzkill Pauley]

That being said, are we really thinking that trading Shoppach, a catcher who is at most a backup guy, and who is gone after this year should really net something to make the team better in 2013?

If you're talking about the Red Sox MLB team, then no. I think Shoppach could have fetched one prospect at least two years away in the #12-20 range, but no more than that.

The Red Sox baseball organization, yes. I don't think the Sox will get close to what I would have hoped, but I'm glad to keep an open mind should they actually get a player in return.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

That being said, are we really thinking that trading Shoppach, a catcher who is at most a backup guy, and who is gone after this year should really net something to make the team better in 2013?

I don't necessarily think he should or would net them something sure to make the team better in 2013. But isn't simply his departure and the subsequent available playing time for Lavarnway a means of making the team better in 2013? It's 45 games worth of experience Lavarnway might not otherwise have gotten. Obviously Lavarnway was on the roster already and surely would have been called up in September if he wasn't, but now he's no longer the 3rd catcher and occasional DH. He's a full platoon partner who's going to pick up more innings behind the plate catching major league pitchers than he otherwise would have.

[lexrageorge]

The critics of this move are assuming two things incorrectly:

1.) That the Sox would have been able to get more pre-deadline than what they'll end up getting from the Mets. That's a highly questionable assumption.

2.) That the Sox made this latest move for 2012 salary relief. That's even more questionable. Again, Shoppach was gone after this season; Lavarnway is their catcher of the future. Why keep Shoppach around any longer?

[Buzzkill Pauley]

The critics of this move are assuming two things incorrectly:

1.) That the Sox would have been able to get more pre-deadline than what they'll end up getting from the Mets. That's a highly questionable assumption.

2.) That the Sox made this latest move for 2012 salary relief. That's even more questionable. Again, Shoppach was gone after this season; Lavarnway is their catcher of the future. Why keep Shoppach around any longer?

You are stating incorrectly one of the assumptions of the critics. Or at least me. And as to the other, dismissing it with hand-waving instead of evidence.

1. I assume that the Sox could have gotten more for Shoppach pre-deadline.

I believe this is a credible assumption, based on the fact that there were two other catchers moved pre-deadline, both of whom returned significantly more than a PTBNL or cash considerations, and who have little advantage over Shoppach as an acquisition target. So there was a developed market for backup catching among contending teams at the trade deadline. And Shoppach is a decent defensive catcher, is enjoying a solid offensive year for a backup, has playoff experience, and would require only a minimal commitment in terms of years and money.

2. I do not assume the Sox made this move so as to gain salary relief.

I do assume that's all the Sox will get out of the deal, however, since I assume the finalization of the deal will include only cash considerations being returned to the Sox. If there's an actual player sent from the Mets, I will be rather surprised. There is no reason for the Mets to give up even marginal organizational assets, since they've fallen out of contention. And I certainly never assumed one of the primary motives for making the trade included financial need, as was the case with Scutaro. First, the salary relief is minimal -- less than $500k -- and second, there's nobody out there for whom that money could be reallocated in order to better the team.

And if your justification is that Lavarnway is the catcher of the future, why wasn't he provided with an additional 2-3 weeks experience?

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

If you're talking about the Red Sox MLB team, then no. I think Shoppach could have fetched one prospect at least two years away in the #12-20 range, but no more than that.

The Red Sox baseball organization, yes. I don't think the Sox will get close to what I would have hoped, but I'm glad to keep an open mind should they actually get a player in return.

There's no way that Shoppach would have returned a top 20 prospect. He's a backup catcher who was one of the worst offensive players in all of baseball last year, even if you say that this trade happened before the deadline, no team is going to give up a top 20 prospect for that kind of shit, when it can be had off the scrap-heap for nothing.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

There's no way that Shoppach would have returned a top 20 prospect. He's a backup catcher who was one of the worst offensive players in all of baseball last year, even if you say that this trade happened before the deadline, no team is going to give up a top 20 prospect for that kind of shit, when it can be had off the scrap-heap for nothing.

Guys in the #12-20 range get thrown into midseason deals all the time. These guys are the lottery-tickets, and they get moved very easily. It doesn't have to be for a consistently good player, just a player of need. And Shoppach's 4-month total of 1.1 WAR as a backup catcher is rather better than a pile of shit, no?

The 2011 Navarro-Aviles trade is illustrative: #5 midseason prospect from a strip-mined farm being traded straight-up for a utility infielder needed in the stretch run due to injuries. Of course, Aviles had two additional years of club control, which increased his value into the top-5 of a tremendously bottom-heavy organization.

But was there a whole lot of difference in expectations between what Shoppach and Aviles would contribute in terms of expected on-field value for 2-3 months? I think not.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Shoppach is a 32 year old career backup catcher in the last 6 weeks of his contract. Nothing about that package screams "top 20 prospect" in return. Nothing. If you're lucky you might get "cash" for him. If you're unlucky you'll get Kevin Cash for him.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Shoppach is a 32 year old career backup catcher in the last 6 weeks of his contract. Nothing about that package screams "top 20 prospect" in return. Nothing. If you're lucky you might get "cash" for him. If you're unlucky you'll get Kevin Cash for him.

You're focusing on what he doesn't have, which is time value. What a contender needs isn't time value, though; it's present value.

Which Shoppach -- as a cheap 1.1 WAR backup catcher with decent defense and receiving skills -- had.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You're focusing on what he doesn't have, which is time value. What a contender needs isn't time value, though; it's present value.

Which Shoppach -- as a cheap 1.1 WAR backup catcher with decent defense and receiving skills -- had.

Why did the Mets need present value since their season is going nowhere?

Which contender needed a backup catcher with a bad reputation?

[erfus]

I do assume that's all the Sox will get out of the deal, however, since I assume the finalization of the deal will include only cash considerations being returned to the Sox. If there's an actual player sent from the Mets, I will be rather surprised. There is no reason for the Mets to give up even marginal organizational assets, since they've fallen out of contention. And I certainly never assumed one of the primary motives for making the trade included financial need, as was the case with Scutaro. First, the salary relief is minimal -- less than $500k -- and second, there's nobody out there for whom that money could be reallocated in order to better the team.

Wouldn't there almost have to be a player involved since it was a trade off of a waiver claim? If salary relief were the sole objective of the Sox in the transaction, would they have not simply let the Mets take him via waiver claim? I'm guessing the Sox offset some of Shoppach's salary to get the Mets version of Jeremias Pineda as the PTBNL.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Why did the Mets need present value since their season is going nowhere?

Which contender needed a backup catcher with a bad reputation?

Eh? If we're talking pre-deadline, why limit it to only the Mets?

And when (before working under BobbyV) did Shoppach acquire a bad reputation?

[JayMags71]

You're focusing on what he doesn't have, which is time value. What a contender needs isn't time value, though; it's present value.

Which Shoppach -- as a cheap 1.1 WAR backup catcher with decent defense and receiving skills -- had.

How exactly does this value manifest itself? What exactly is he going to be doing in the clubhouse, on the field, in practice or wherever in 6-8 weeks that a GM is going to be prompted to say "Oooh, KELLY SHOPPACH'S available! Cut me a slice of THAT!"?

Edited by JayMags71, 15 August 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[trekfan55]

You're focusing on what he doesn't have, which is time value. What a contender needs isn't time value, though; it's present value.

Which Shoppach -- as a cheap 1.1 WAR backup catcher with decent defense and receiving skills -- had.

Since Shoppach was let go essentially for nothing through a waiver claim (and we'll wait and see on that) we have to assume that he was offered before July 31st. This assumption is not at all far fetched. We can also assume that no one offered anything in return (or anything the Sox liked).

[Buzzkill Pauley]

How exactly does this value manifest itself? What exactly is he going to be doing in the clubhouse, on the field, in practice or wherever in 6-8 weeks that a GM is going to be prompted to say "Oooh, KELLY SHOPPACH'S available! Cut me a slice of THAT!"?

Well, in the context of baseball contracts, time value would manifest in the club having multiple years of control over an asset expected to provide increasing, steady, or only slightly decreasing positive value throughout the duration of contract. Present value would manifest in the immediate value provided by an asset over and above its immediate alternative.

Three months of Shoppach, for instance, would provide present value to a contender because the expected decline for a 32-year old backup catcher -- who's having a good year after several down seasons -- is less likely to occur within a short time-span. And he's having a better offensive year than many contenders' immediate alternatives were.

Put another way, why did the Sox sell off multiple mid-level prospects in order to acquire Eric Gagne? Because the present value of going for it now was preferred in 2007 over the time value of David Murphy.

Oh, and trekfan -- BennyC not getting "anything the Sox liked" part has basically been my argument all along. I do believe the Sox were offering Shoppach before the deadline, but (surprise!) didn't find any takers willing to return AAA/MLB-ready talent.