554 replies to this topic

[bbc23]

Figured it would be good to have a Laker catch-all.
First domino to drop after the Dwight Howard trade is Jodie Meeks signing for the vet min for 2 years https://twitter.com/...021506567516162

The Lakers are stacked for the next 2 years, you really can't say their bench is a complete weak point right now. Here's their depth chart:
Nash/Blake/Duhon
Bryant/Meeks/Ebanks
World Peace/Ebanks/Clark
Gasol/Jamison/Hill
Howard/Hill

[Cellar-Door]

Figured it would be good to have a Laker catch-all.
First domino to drop after the Dwight Howard trade is Jodie Meeks signing for the vet min for 2 years https://twitter.com/...021506567516162

The Lakers are stacked for the next 2 years, you really can't say their bench is a complete weak point right now. Here's their depth chart:
Nash/Blake/Duhon
Bryant/Meeks/Ebanks
World Peace/Ebanks/Clark
Gasol/Jamison/Hill
Howard/Hill

They're good. But I'm not sure they're better than OKC or Miami. And their window is much Smaller. 2 years max, then they have to break it down and rebuild.

[Gunfighter 09]

Figured it would be good to have a Laker catch-all.
First domino to drop after the Dwight Howard trade is Jodie Meeks signing for the vet min for 2 years https://twitter.com/...021506567516162

The Lakers are stacked for the next 2 years, you really can't say their bench is a complete weak point right now. Here's their depth chart:
Nash/Blake/Duhon/Goudelock
Bryant/Meeks/Ebanks
World Peace/Ebanks/Clark
Gasol/Jamison/McRoberts
Howard/Hill

They have McRoberts and Goudelock as well who might make the 12 man. I imagine Duhon will be cut at some point.


Where the Howard trade looks even better is that, assuming he re-signs, they will have nothing but Howard, Nash's $13M expring deal and rookies under contract in the summer of 14 when Love, LeBron, Melo, Bosh and Wade all have opt outs.

They also have some insurance against he worst case scenario that Kobe and Howard hate each other. If Howard makes it clear that he cant play with Kobe next summer and will not re-sign, they still have the amnesty.....

[bowiac]

If Howard comes back full strength, then they've gotta be the favorites in the West. Pau Gasol is the 4th option on this team. It's hard not to go over the top with superlatives honestly. Seeing them win 70 wouldn't shock me (assuming Howard is himself that is).

[bbc23]

They have McRoberts and Goudelock as well who might make the 12 man. I imagine Duhon will be cut at some point.


Where the Howard trade looks even better is that, assuming he re-signs, they will have nothing but Howard, Nash's $13M expring deal and rookies under contract in the summer of 14 when Love, LeBron, Melo, Bosh and Wade all have opt outs.

They also have some insurance against he worst case scenario that Kobe and Howard hate each other. If Howard makes it clear that he cant play with Kobe next summer and will not re-sign, they still have the amnesty.....

McBob was traded to the Magic in the Howard trade, the attraction I assume, him being an expiring deal
Edit: Forgot to mention Goudelock is non-guaranteed, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't make the 12 man squad, especially with them pursuing Kenyon Martin (yes I am aware of the different positions)

Edited by bbc23, 10 August 2012 - 11:50 PM.

[collings94]

The Lakers have the potential to be champions, but they also have the potential to implode. Dwight can't pull any of that shit he did in Orlando with Kobe.

[dbn]

They also have some insurance against he worst case scenario that Kobe and Howard hate each other. If Howard makes it clear that he cant play with Kobe next summer and will not re-sign, they still have the amnesty.....

The Lakers have the potential to be champions, but they also have the potential to implode. Dwight can't pull any of that shit he did in Orlando with Kobe.

My first thought when I saw the headline was to hope for this. Maybe Kobe just hates Supermans.

[JakeRae]

If Howard comes back full strength, then they've gotta be the favorites in the West. Pau Gasol is the 4th option on this team. It's hard not to go over the top with superlatives honestly. Seeing them win 70 wouldn't shock me (assuming Howard is himself that is).

I'm in agreement. This team is loaded and has no real weak spots. They have interior presence, a big who can stretch the floor on offense, a big who can play the transition game, the best defensive player in the league covering for Nash's propensity to let opposing PG's get in the paint, a SF who can put forth a solid effort at defending the dominant wings around the league, and one of the best SG's in the history of the game.

Sure, most of this team is getting old, but I can't remember seeing a team with this much talent spread across it's roster and that was this well balanced since the late 90's Bulls. If everyone buys in (Kobe letting Nash run the offense, Howard recognizing that he is the 4th option, and Artest not shooting dumb shots) this is going to be the juggernaut that Lebron, Wade, and Bosh thought they were creating in Miami.

[SemperFidelisSox]

It's equal parts infuriating and impressive how they're able to get rival teams to do business with them.

[Tony C]

I'm in agreement. This team is loaded and has no real weak spots. They have interior presence, a big who can stretch the floor on offense, a big who can play the transition game, the best defensive player in the league covering for Nash's propensity to let opposing PG's get in the paint, a SF who can put forth a solid effort at defending the dominant wings around the league, and one of the best SG's in the history of the game.

Sure, most of this team is getting old, but I can't remember seeing a team with this much talent spread across it's roster and that was this well balanced since the late 90's Bulls. If everyone buys in (Kobe letting Nash run the offense, Howard recognizing that he is the 4th option, and Artest not shooting dumb shots) this is going to be the juggernaut that Lebron, Wade, and Bosh thought they were creating in Miami.

Agree. Not just incredibly talented, but it seems to me these players are incredibly complementary to each other, too.

Depressing, really. The hope is that the Kobe and Nash decline accelerates, but I'm not counting on that.

[TomRicardo]

I'm in agreement. This team is loaded and has no real weak spots. They have interior presence, a big who can stretch the floor on offense, a big who can play the transition game, the best defensive player in the league covering for Nash's propensity to let opposing PG's get in the paint, a SF who can put forth a solid effort at defending the dominant wings around the league, and one of the best SG's in the history of the game.

Sure, most of this team is getting old, but I can't remember seeing a team with this much talent spread across it's roster and that was this well balanced since the late 90's Bulls. If everyone buys in (Kobe letting Nash run the offense, Howard recognizing that he is the 4th option, and Artest not shooting dumb shots) this is going to be the juggernaut that Lebron, Wade, and Bosh thought they were creating in Miami.

They don't have the depth to keep up OKC. They are also relying on health from players with a ton of mileage and a center with a bad back. I would say that is their biggest weakness.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I'm not convinced that Kobe and Nash are going to play well together, and I'm also not convinced that they know what kind of offense they are going to be using - Will they be playing PNR with Nash? Power game with PG and DH? How is Kobe going to get his shots?

They will beat a lot of teams with sheer talent but when it comes to playoffs, the question is whether they will be a cohesive whole.

They have Mike Brown, which is a plus for the rest of the league. Also, they hired Eddie Jordan to implement the Princeton offense. Can you imagine DH trying to run the Princeton offense?

[Brickowski]

IMHO Howard is overrated so I do not expect the Lakers to win a championship as presently constituted. And I expect Mike Brown to suffer the same fate as SVG.

[CaptainLaddie]

IMHO Howard is overrated so I do not expect the Lakers to win a championship as presently constituted. And I expect Mike Brown to suffer the same fate as SVG.

We know you think Dwight Howard is garbage. You've made it clear that you think Bill Russell (who I ADORE) would outplay Howard with his "cat-like" reflexes, despite 3 inches and 60 pounds of muscle.

[knucklecup]

We know you think Dwight Howard is garbage. You've made it clear that you think Bill Russell (who I ADORE) would outplay Howard with his "cat-like" reflexes, despite 3 inches and 60 pounds of muscle.

Well said.

[Brickowski]

I didn't say he was garbage, I said he was overrated. But yes, Russell would outplay Howard, just as Russell outplayed Chamberlain--who was bigger (and far more skilled offensively) than Howard-- when the games mattered.

[mandro ramtinez]

Dwight Howard is not overrated as the 3rd or 4th best player in the league but nor is he anywhere near the level of Wilt Chamberlain. And let's hope he never reaches that level.

[TrapperAB]

Does it make me a bad person that I want Duh-wight's surgically repaired back to snap?

Man, I hate the Lakers.

[jon abbey]

They don't have the depth to keep up OKC. They are also relying on health from players with a ton of mileage and a center with a bad back. I would say that is their biggest weakness.

OKC doesn't have much depth either, Derek Fisher played the third most minutes for them in the last game of the Finals.

OKC has their starting five (including Sefalosha), Harden and Nick Collison, plus Eric Maynor coming off injury. LAL has the starting five (including Artest), Jordan Hill (who looked possibly on the verge of breaking out in the playoffs last year), Jodie Meeks and I guess Steve Blake. I still favor OKC to come out of the West, but it's because of youth more than depth.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

OKC doesn't have much depth either, Derek Fisher played the third most minutes for them in the last game of the Finals.

OKC has their starting five (including Sefalosha), Harden and Nick Collison, plus Eric Maynor coming off injury. LAL has the starting five (including Artest), Jordan Hill (who looked possibly on the verge of breaking out in the playoffs last year), Jodie Meeks and I guess Steve Blake. I still favor OKC to come out of the West, but it's because of youth more than depth.

The Lakers also signed Antawn Jamison for the veteran minimum.

[jon abbey]

I knew that, yet chose to ignore it.

[CaptainLaddie]

I didn't say he was garbage, I said he was overrated. But yes, Russell would outplay Howard, just as Russell outplayed Chamberlain--who was bigger (and far more skilled offensively) than Howard-- when the games mattered.

Thanks for proving me right.

[Brickowski]

About 10 years ago an interviewer asked Russell if he would have been able to guard Shaq. Russell replied, "That's the wrong question. The question is whether or not Shaq could have guarded me. I would have run him into the ground."

As for Howard, I expect that Russ would have him on the bench with three fouls by the middle of the first quarter. Russell really knew what he was doing in every facet of the game. Howard doesn't.

[lars10]

Thanks for proving me right.

Have you watched Dwight Howard play offense? He makes Blake Griffin look like he has a diverse offensive game by comparison.

Edited by lars10, 13 August 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[jon abbey]

Have you watched Dwight Howard play offense? He makes Blake Griffin look like he has a diverse offensive game by comparison.

This only really matters if the other team has one of the handful of guys in the league who can guard him one on one, Perkins, Chandler, Bynum, Rasheed when he was in the league killed him (which is why DET knocked ORL out of the playoffs a few times), not many others. If they don't and he's motivated, he can be pretty dominant, like the first round playoff series against PHI in 2009 where he averaged 24 points and 16 boards on 68 percent shooting.

[DannyDarwinism]

This only really matters if the other team has one of the handful of guys in the league who can guard him one on one, Perkins, Chandler, Bynum, Rasheed when he was in the league killed him (which is why DET knocked ORL out of the playoffs a few times), not many others.

Well, the Celtics may have lost Perk, but, to quote Yoda, there is another...

http://espn.go.com/n...0331/daily-dime

[jon abbey]

Oh, right. Actually Howard is more vulnerable along these lines than any superstar I can remember, he seems to be either dominant or fairly easily shut down if you have one of the handful of guys who can do that. Of course that was with Jameer Nelson as his PG, not Steve Nash, that may change things...

[lars10]

This only really matters if the other team has one of the handful of guys in the league who can guard him one on one, Perkins, Chandler, Bynum, Rasheed when he was in the league killed him (which is why DET knocked ORL out of the playoffs a few times), not many others. If they don't and he's motivated, he can be pretty dominant, like the first round playoff series against PHI in 2009 where he averaged 24 points and 16 boards on 68 percent shooting.

It was more in response to the idea that I thought Captain Laddie was espousing that Bill Russell couldn't possibly stop Dwight Howard. My experience in watching Howard is that he has no touch outside of four feet or so... and if you can keep him from getting dunks that he's pretty limited...that's a big IF. I think a frontcourt of Gasol and Howard will be much scarier than Gasol and Bynum though... and with the combo of Kobe and Nash...eesh.

[Brickowski]

Why are Gasol and Howard so much scarier than Gasol and Bynum? A healthy Bynum is a better offensive player than Howard, although not as good defensively. Howard will certainly be a better offensive threat with Nash running the pick and roll, but Bynum would have been too.

On defense, Howard is going to have to stay out of foul trouble when quick guards beat Nash off the dribble and Howard has to come over from the weak side.

Certainly the Lakers with Howard and Nash added to the mix will be a formidable team, but I'm not conceding them any championships, not even WC championships.

[JakeRae]

Have you watched Dwight Howard play offense? He makes Blake Griffin look like he has a diverse offensive game by comparison.

I'm quoting this, not to engage in the silly attempts to discuss the relative quality of Howard versus Russell, but because it is true. Howard has extremely limited offensive skills and is pretty much only effective offensively in situations where his athleticism is the key component of his scoring efforts. He is a great offensive rebounder and good at generating points off of put backs. He is a very good pick and roll player as it allows him to roll to the rim and get fed when the angles are there (and score above the rim). He is an excellent transition player for a big man because he can run and he can score at the rim. He is not a good post player nor a good isolation player.

Why this Laker team is so dangerous is because they should never have to ask Howard to play offense out of the post. If they want to bang, they can use Gasol. If Howard's man helps, Gasol is an excellent passer and can get him easy buckets. Nash is one of, if not the, best pick and roll point guards in the league. Both Gasol and Howard play this set beautifully and offer very different looks out of it as Howard's strength is his ability to get to the rim and Gasol's is his ability to step out of the pick and shoot. The Lakers aren't going to run isolation offenses for anyone except Kobe, so Howard doesn't have to worry about that. While the rest of the team is old, Howard should be able to get some decent transition opportunities with them as Nash is still more than willing to push the ball up the floor. Howard is the 4th option on offense and I think he should be able to accept that provided he is still getting 15+ points a game via put backs, transition baskets, and plays designed to get him the ball in an attacking position rather than in the post. The inside out game that Orlando has been trying to play was never well suited to Howard's skills. LA should be able to let him take a backseat in the half court offense while still getting him enough touches to get his points and not asking him to work as hard.

[NatetheGreat]

This Lakers team has as high a ceiling than any team of my basketball watching lifetime, but also a tremendous potential for complete implosion.
Kobe is the luckiest motherfucker in NBA history in terms of having great teammate after great teammate fall into his lap.

[stp130]

How long before Phil parachutes back in to "win" a few more rings?

[ColonelMustard]

The Lakers also signed Antawn Jamison for the veteran minimum.

With the Howard trade this has been completely forgetten. This sigining (FOR THER MINIMUM - WTF) is on par with the Terry signing. Jamison averaged a very efficient 17.2 ppg last year.

How long before Phil parachutes back in to "win" a few more rings?

i pray that the pathetic ineptitude that is Mike Brown stays on that team. I shudder at the thought of yoda Phil coming back.

[CaptainLaddie]

It was more in response to the idea that I thought Captain Laddie was espousing that Bill Russell couldn't possibly stop Dwight Howard. My experience in watching Howard is that he has no touch outside of four feet or so... and if you can keep him from getting dunks that he's pretty limited...that's a big IF. I think a frontcourt of Gasol and Howard will be much scarier than Gasol and Bynum though... and with the combo of Kobe and Nash...eesh.

I'm not saying that though. I know Dwight Howard isn't a great offensive player; I get that. What he is, though, is a terrific player 6 feet from the basket on offense and an incredible defensive player to boot. Four years in a row leading the in defensive win shares will sort of give meaning to that. Don't get me wrong, Russell's a phenomenal player, one of the five best ever. What I'm saying is that Russell was 6'9" and 215 pounds and would have a hard time getting position on Howard considering Howard's size and strength advantage. There wasn't a single player in the NBA who was Howard's size in those days.

[Brickowski]

LOL if Phil comes back the triangle would be good for Howard but would waste Nash's skills.

If Russell could get position on Chamberlain he could do the same to Howard.

Edited by Brickowski, 14 August 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Super Nomario]

With the Howard trade this has been completely forgetten. This sigining (FOR THER MINIMUM - WTF) is on par with the Terry signing. Jamison averaged a very efficient 17.2 ppg last year.

Is this sarcasm? In what world is shooting 40.3% from the field very efficient?

[ColonelMustard]

Is this sarcasm? In what world is shooting 40.3% from the field very efficient?

Sorry hyperbole. But the point remains - his signing is on par if not better than the Terry signing. His shooting career average is close to 45% and he is a good scorer from the forward spot with a career avg of 19 ppg. He also averaged 6.3 RMG a game last season. MWP averaged 3.4. He's a good counterpunch to MWP when a few buckets are needed and he can back-up Gasol as well at PF.

Furthermore he shot a tad better than 34% from 3point land. Thats better than Kobe and James.

[bbc23]

Sorry hyperbole. But the point remains - his signing is on par if not better than the Terry signing. His shooting career average is close to 45% and he is a good scorer from the forward spot with a career avg of 19 ppg. He also averaged 6.3 RMG a game last season. MWP averaged 3.4. He's a good counterpunch to MWP when a few buckets are needed and he can back-up Gasol as well at PF.

Furthermore he shot a tad better than 34% from 3point land. Thats better than Kobe and James.

There's also the fact that Jamison is going from being a high priority guy to guard on Cleveland to the 7th or 8th man in LA. Playing against Amir Johnson versus Chris Bosh tends to be a positive.

[quint]

LOL if Phil comes back the triangle would be good for Howard but would waste Nash's skills.

If Russell could get position on Chamberlain he could do the same to Howard.

Shut the fuck up, you fucking retard.

[lars10]

I'm not saying that though. I know Dwight Howard isn't a great offensive player; I get that. What he is, though, is a terrific player 6 feet from the basket on offense and an incredible defensive player to boot. Four years in a row leading the in defensive win shares will sort of give meaning to that. Don't get me wrong, Russell's a phenomenal player, one of the five best ever. What I'm saying is that Russell was 6'9" and 215 pounds and would have a hard time getting position on Howard considering Howard's size and strength advantage. There wasn't a single player in the NBA who was Howard's size in those days.

Except for the fact that Wilt was 7'-1" and 275 (Howard is listed at 6'-11, 264)...and Russell seemed to do okay against him..and Wilt had more post moves.

[Brickowski]

Shut the fuck up, you fucking retard.

Nope, I won't. And if you really believe that Dwight Howard is a better player than either Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell--or could dominate either of those guys-- then you are sorely mistaken.

Edited by Brickowski, 14 August 2012 - 11:52 AM.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Nope.

Then can you at least just bump the 15 page thread from last summer where you argued the Dwight vs. Russell thing?

[Brickowski]

Then can you at least just bump the 15 page thread from last summer where you argued the Dwight vs. Russell thing?

CaptainLaddie reopened that discussion, not me.

[lars10]

I guess I missed the extensive discussion, but I'm a bit confused as to the overall dominance of Dwight Howard. The same Dwight Howard who could be guarded by Kendrick Perkins one on one (6'-10" 265). Is it because he has so much more muscle or something? He's an athletic giant? I mean we've already had the discussion how Wilt could dunk from the free throw line so much so that they changed the rule so you had to shoot free throws... and we saw Dwight Howard's 'dunk' from the free throw line in competition. Anyway... I guess it's been discussed ad nauseum..but DH doesn't strike me as a player that would dominate any great player if he can't even dominate Perk...and is clearly offensively challenged.

[Ed Hillel]

I'd just like to quickly point out that the guy the Lakers traded to acquire a top 3-5 NBA talent is headed to Germany to have experimental knee treatment.

http://espn.go.com/n...-knee-treatment

[BigSoxFan]

I guess I missed the extensive discussion, but I'm a bit confused as to the overall dominance of Dwight Howard. The same Dwight Howard who could be guarded by Kendrick Perkins one on one (6'-10" 265). Is it because he has so much more muscle or something? He's an athletic giant? I mean we've already had the discussion how Wilt could dunk from the free throw line so much so that they changed the rule so you had to shoot free throws... and we saw Dwight Howard's 'dunk' from the free throw line in competition. Anyway... I guess it's been discussed ad nauseum..but DH doesn't strike me as a player that would dominate any great player if he can't even dominate Perk...and is clearly offensively challenged.

Wilt averaged 29 ppg in games against Russell. He had multiple games where he went for 40-50 points. Bill Russell was a great defender but do you really think he'd be holding Dwight Howard to 12 points or something? Obviously, Chamberlain was a better player than Howard will ever be but the majority of Perkins' past "success" against Howard is because he was able to body him up. I don't see how Russell would have been able to do the same giving up 2 inches and 50+ pounds of pure muscle. I guess this whole discussion is just semantics based on how one defines "dominates".

[Super Nomario]

I guess I missed the extensive discussion, but I'm a bit confused as to the overall dominance of Dwight Howard. The same Dwight Howard who could be guarded by Kendrick Perkins one on one (6'-10" 265). Is it because he has so much more muscle or something? He's an athletic giant? I mean we've already had the discussion how Wilt could dunk from the free throw line so much so that they changed the rule so you had to shoot free throws... and we saw Dwight Howard's 'dunk' from the free throw line in competition. Anyway... I guess it's been discussed ad nauseum..but DH doesn't strike me as a player that would dominate any great player if he can't even dominate Perk...and is clearly offensively challenged.

Dwight Howard has averaged 16.4 points on .500 shooting in his career against Boston, with 12.7 RPG. That's his worst FG% against any team, and it's still pretty good. He played OKC twice last year and averaged 22 and 12 on .563 FG%. In his one game against the Lakers last year, he scored 21 points and hauled in 23 rebounds as the Magic beat the Lakers; Bynum had 5 fouls and finished with 10 points.

Dwight Howard is not a player who dominates by scoring 40 points very often, but he is a player who dominates with an efficient 15-25 points, ~15 rebounds, and probably the best shotblocking and defense in the league.

[jon abbey]

So there's a new feature on the site where mods can ban posters from a single topic, and I have taken it upon myself to end the Howard/Russell tangent, in this thread at least.

[The Allented Mr Ripley]

Shut the fuck up, you fucking retard.

Plagiarist.

[Caspir]

I'd just like to quickly point out that the guy the Lakers traded to acquire a top 3-5 NBA talent is headed to Germany to have experimental knee treatment.

http://espn.go.com/n...-knee-treatment

This was the best part.

The procedure is a derivation of platelet-rich plasma therapy and is the same treatment that Kobe Bryant, Grant Hill and Alex Rodriguez all recently underwent, according to the report.

So a bunch of guys ten years older than him got it. He is gonna be crippled in three years.

Edited by Caspir, 15 August 2012 - 08:29 PM.