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Larry Lucchino Revisited: Eddard Stark or Randall Flagg?


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#1 DeJesus Built My Hotrod


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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:15 PM

The theme around these parts, and in the press, seems to be that Larry Lucchino is a meddling, ill-tempered control freak whose worst qualities have contributed to the Sox poor fortunes over the past few seasons. Many here have attributed most of the damaging "leaks" and less than flattering press items about former employees to him. Those who pine for Theo Epstein lay his departure solely at Lucchino's feet. Ultimately, his detractors feel that Lucchino has done more harm than good for the Red Sox.

On the other hand, Lucchino has been the one constant in the Sox front office since Henry et al purchased the team (recall that Theo left the team back in late 2005). Its safe to say that he contributed to the franchise when they won in 2004 and 2007, even if it was only to hire the talent that assembled those teams.

Furthermore, he has an established track record as a baseball/sports executive in getting things done (e.g Camden Yards). And while he is widely perceived to be a tough executive, most businesses including professional sports teams benefit from having a "heavy" around.

So where do you come down on Lucchino and why?

Before you answer, please note that this isn't a feelings thread - please present facts that are supportable. If you don't like Lucchino's face or simply believe that business executives are, by their very nature, evil people please refrain from responding.

For the purpose of this thread, feelings and anecdotes are not data (I am looking at you Ricardo).

Edited by DeJesus Built My Hotrod, 08 August 2012 - 09:11 PM.


#2 Alcohol&Overcalls

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:43 PM

Do we really have any data about Lucchino's role, though? It seems like everything we have either relies on anecdote/assertion (media "reports" and allusion), or a 30,000-foot view of the organization (in which "Things are good = Lucchino is good" or the converse).

I feel like there is startlingly little information available regarding Lucchino's actual role, or which elements of the team really hold his fingerprints.

Edited by Alcohol&Overcalls, 08 August 2012 - 08:44 PM.


#3 Cellar-Door

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:49 PM

Personally I have always though Lucky got a bad rap. By most accounts the Theo exodus was largely a power struggle between Larry and Theo, one that Theo won. Based on this it would appear that the moves up to and including the Beckett/Lowell trade should be viewed as moves on which he had more input, and later moves as ones on which he had less. If we use that basis he has done a really nice job. And he came in with a rep as a guy who had done a great job in helping the Padres win the pennant, and making the Orioles briefly relevant.

Of course as noted above this is all anecdotal, we have no idea which baseball ops moves were his and which were not. The only thing we do know he is involved in is the refurbishing of Fenway, which was very well done, and the money raising efforts which while often a bit annoying are quite successful.

#4 Jordu

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 09:02 PM

The value of the franchise, according to Forbes' annual ranking, has more than doubled in the past 10 years (to $1B). This at a time of significant inflation in the value of high-profile franchises, of course, but still -- Lucchino is a CEO and a CEO's job is to run a profitable enterprise. I would imagine that is how the shareholders judge his performance.

We fans judge him by a different standard, and by our standard he's had an unsuccessful five years. He's the person in charge of running the operation, so ultimately the buck stops with him.

I do wonder, though, why sports franchise CEOs are accused of "meddling" for doing what bosses do: hiring, firing, allocating resources and supervising subordinates.

#5 Jordu

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 09:02 PM

Er, $1 billion

#6 OCD SS


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Posted 08 August 2012 - 09:13 PM

I feel like there is startlingly little information available regarding Lucchino's actual role, or which elements of the team really hold his fingerprints.


Which is part of the problem. But he is the member of ownership that has been most vocal about ownership having a seat at the baseball ops table. He also seemed to be at more of the off-season press conferences than JWH, and while I may be misremembering that, I think there is at least a general consensus that when "ownership" is mentioned in the day to day baseball operations, the body attached is that of LL, rather than Henry or Werner.

I think that we can assume that if it were up to Ben then Sveum would've been hired as the Sox manager. The Fifth coming in at such a late stage certainly smacks of someone higher up deciding things need to go in a different direction. All the talk of "being bold" in the press at the deadline had LL attached as well. This may just make him the public face of ownership, but it gives the impression that he is the one charting the course, and that makes sense with JWH and Werner dealing with other areas while LL's forte, ballpark (re)construction/ renovation seems to be at an end at Fenway.

#7 Kenny F'ing Powers


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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:17 AM

Heard Larry on EEI during the ride to work today, and I was surprised with his candor. It was the first time I heard anyone in the front office actually admit what the team is...an overpriced club playing .500 baseball. When asked if he could go back and refine the team during the previous offseason he said (I'm paraphrasing,) "Of course. That's obvious. Hindsight is 20/20 and I don't think any of us expected this team to be a .500 baseball team." There was no talk about playoffs, people turning it around, or having faith in his players. It's the first time I heard anyone in the front office admitting that, "Yes! We actually see the writing on the wall!"

They asked about rebuilding the team and he was pretty honest. He said something along the lines of "when we saw the Middlebrooks homerun the other day, we realized that this is a young mans game. I think you'll see us focus much more on youth going forward. We'll end up paying $196 million this year on this team, so we've proven that we'll spend money and we'll continue to do so. But I think you'll see us focus on youth going forward."

It wasn't complete transparency, but for LL it was pretty honest. The tone and candor in his thoughts said to me, "We've spent a lot of money on this team, we're finally willing to admit that this team isn't going to work, and we're going to focus on developing from within going forward."

Now, he's saying all the things that we've been saying for months, but at least he's finally saying it. And, hell, there's something--dare I say, admirable?--about having complete faith in this team up until today. Obviously his job is to be impartial, but this was the first interview I heard with him (this year) where I thought the team might actually have a clue.

Edited by Kenny F'ing Powers, 09 August 2012 - 09:17 AM.


#8 SMU_Sox


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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:25 AM

Do we really have any data about Lucchino's role, though? It seems like everything we have either relies on anecdote/assertion (media "reports" and allusion), or a 30,000-foot view of the organization (in which "Things are good = Lucchino is good" or the converse).

I feel like there is startlingly little information available regarding Lucchino's actual role, or which elements of the team really hold his fingerprints.


Thank you. You're a great poster. You know what I love about your posts? You realize the limitations of what you know and don't know and operate in those parameters. You don't tend to have an opinion when you don't have enough of the information to sufficiently create one. I try to do that too and call people out when they don't. Here though I'm calling you out on the main board and not in the "must read" thread because I think the board would be better if other posters would be more like you. I know this is smarmy but I feel like an over-the-top call-out is needed. And no, I am not after your Budweiser.

#9 Kull


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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:47 PM

Do we really have any data about Lucchino's role, though? It seems like everything we have either relies on anecdote/assertion (media "reports" and allusion), or a 30,000-foot view of the organization (in which "Things are good = Lucchino is good" or the converse). I feel like there is startlingly little information available regarding Lucchino's actual role, or which elements of the team really hold his fingerprints.


Until one of the insiders writes the tell-all book some day, most of what we have to go on is inference based on the facts we do have. Rolling this all the way back to the days when the ownership group arrived, we know they wanted a GM who would build the team around the moneyball concept and when Beane turned down the job, the next in line was Theo. The ownership group had just invested a lot of money in this shiny new toy, and it seems obvious they weren't going to hand the keys of the car to a novice GM and let him do whatever he wanted, so the pattern was laid down at the start - baseball decisions would be collective decisions. How much delegation of duties there was is impossible to know for sure, but this much we do. At some point Theo walked away and had to be coerced back into the job. From everything we've heard, the reasons for this were his belief that the powers of the GM had been so diminished that he simply wasn't interested in being the figurehead GM for the Boston Red Sox. With a recent World Series win under his belt, the end of the 86 year drought, and all the publicity and "baseball cred" that came with it, the timing was right. This guy would have no trouble getting a GM job elsewhere in baseball, so he was negotiating from a position of strength.

The exact terms under which Theo returned are unknown but it seems that more power for the GM role, or at least some mechanism by which he had a greater voice in the "collective decision process" was the factor. And then the team went on to win another World Series. But something important had happened. While Theo was gone, the key players who made the 2007 victory possible (Beckett & Lowell) had been acquired in a trade. The details of who made what decisions are somewhat irrelevant. But it was certainly carried out in the absence of ANY GM, much less a fully powered traditional one, so one can see where conclusions might be drawn by some or all of the ownership group (although perhaps not immediately). We also know that the major free agency acquisitions which occurred under Theo's new aegis were a catastrophic disaster. The evils inherent in the Crawford and Lackey contracts have been dissected in depth so I won't repeat the exercise, but there's no doubt that each was a baseball move, and accordingly have to be laid in some part at Theo's feet. Again, exactly how much of a role he played is unknown. But there can't be any doubt that if Theo was now wielding greater power over baseball ops, then his share of the blame is greater than it would have been in the earlier structure.

Finally comes the September collapse. Another episode dissected ad infinitum, but the only thing we care about in this analysis is that we know the ownership held the Manager to be directly responsible, even if only through acts of omission. And the other thing we know is that to all appearances, the one individual organizationally responsible for the manager's performance was the GM (under the post-Theo-walkout power structure). And so first went Tito with Theo soon to follow. Leaving the original ownership group intact, along with most of the baseball operations staff below the manager and GM level. Essentially exactly what was running the show during the interim period when Theo had walked away and the team was functioning without a GM.

What's interesting now is to use those insights as a prism in which to re-examine the way in which the 2012 Red Sox Baseball ops team was assembled. First came the search for a GM. Promoting Ben Cherington from within can be seen as the logical first step toward reconstructing the team under the old model in which ownership has a much greater voice in operations. Overriding Ben's opinion and selecting Valentine as the new Manager is simply a reflection of the new reality. Cherington's GM powers are not those of post-2006 Theo but those of pre-2004 Theo. Maybe even less. Keeping much of the old coaching staff is also explainable since the same thing happened when Tito came on board in 2004 (3 of 6 coaches were holdovers from 2003), which again fits the pattern of an ownership group that is following a previously successful template. Thus the ownership group clearly took on a more active role in 2012, but the results were the polar opposite of what happened in 2004.

Which brings us finally to Larry Lucchino's role in the ownership group, and the extent to which his is the primary guiding hand when it comes to baseball operations. Although we don't know how much leverage Larry has versus that of John Henry or Tom Werner, we do know that another difference between 2004 and 2012 is the growth of the Fenway Sports franchise, in particular the acquisition of the Liverpool team in late 2010. Tom Werner is the chairman of the that organization, so the implication is he's got a lot on his plate in that role. And from a distance, it certainly appears that John Henry is personally putting as much time into growing the Liverpool franchise as he did upon acquiring the Red Sox. So on that basis alone one could reasonably conclude that two key members of the "collective decision group" are contributing less. And in that void, it seems quite likely that Larry has taken on more of a decision maker role, especially given his years of experience as a baseball executive.

Accordingly he certainly appears to be the principal author of the 2012 management chaos, and hopefully the recent visible re-engagement of the entire ownership team is something more than a PR move, but rather a signal that the "collective" is going to get more deeply engaged with, hopefully, better decisions going forward.




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