471 replies to this topic

[JakeRae]

It's time to take the pulse of SoSH on our manager. The team has under performed all season. Is it Bobby V's fault? Is it time for the ritualistic sacrifice of the manager even though it isn't his fault? Or, does Bobby deserve to keep his job?

I think that, while everything that has gone wrong this season does not fall at the feet of the manager, he hasn't been very good either and he's not part of building a long term winner. I think it's time to can him and see if it can spark this team to play up to their talent. I'm not counting on it, but given that I don't find him to be a very good manager anyway, I'd rather cut him now and see if Bogar is a valid managerial option or if they need to go outside the organization this offseason.

Edited by JakeRae, 04 August 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[86spike]

Wait until the offseason and fire everyone.

[SoxScout]

I'm afraid if they fire him now they will think they actually fixed something when they haven't. I didn't want him hired in the first place, but I really don't think he would be any type of issue if the team wasn't full of fucking dipshits.

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

Given the injuries this year--and people obviously differ in their opinions on how much of an impact they've acutally had--you'd think they'd buy BV some time. In that context, canning him anytime before the next ASB would be tantamount to ownership admitting they fucked up in hiring him. So I'll assume he stays.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Do it now, you need to attempt to create some positive momentum for the rest of the season and headed into next year. If I were John Henry, I'd be on the phone offering Tito a blank check and a public apology. The organization and "brand" is in free fall and needs to find some way to change direction. Far deeper issues than the manager, but they are stuck with the roster and need to find a way to make it work. Only other option is gutting the roster, taking pennies on the dollar, and turning things over to a young managerial hire.

[SoxFanPJ]

I think Lt. Col. Frank Slade's scentiments in Scent of a Woman about some up my feelings on the team this year:

"Out of order, I show you out of order. You don't know what out of order is, Mr. Trask. I'd show you, but I'm too old, I'm too tired, I'm too fuckin' blind. If I were the man I was five years ago, I'd take a FLAMETHROWER to this place! Out of order? Who the hell do you think you're talkin' to? I've been around, you know? There was a time I could see. And I have seen. Boys like these, younger than these, their arms torn out, their legs ripped off. But there isn't nothin' like the sight of an amputated spirit. There is no prosthetic for that. You think you're merely sending this splendid foot soldier back home to Oregon with his tail between his legs, but I say you are... executin' his soul! And why? Because he's not a Red Sox-man. Red Sox-men. You hurt this boy, you're gonna be Red Sox bums, the lot of ya. And John, Tom, Larry, wherever you are out there, F@#$ YOU TOO! "

[Rasputin]

Wait until the offseason and fire everyone.

I'd like to keep Tuck.

I'm not convinced Cherington deserves to be fired but neither am I particularly attached to him.

I'm okay pretty much cleaning house.

Also, to the second question, I think answers number two and three are both applicable.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I'm afraid if they fire him now they will think they actually fixed something when they haven't. I didn't want him hired in the first place, but I really don't think he would be any type of issue if the team wasn't full of fucking dipshits.

That may be, but only if they go on a run to the playoffs . . . which is likely not to happen because the team is full of fucking dipshits.

If the Sox fire BobbyV and the team keeps pissing around at .500 ball, ownership will have to admit the problems run deeper. Give Bogar the chance to become a Morgan or Kerrigan. There's nothing to lose at this point in the season.

[Rasputin]

I'm afraid if they fire him now they will think they actually fixed something when they haven't. I didn't want him hired in the first place, but I really don't think he would be any type of issue if the team wasn't full of fucking dipshits.

He still sucks at his job.

[bosockboy]

I say yes....because they need to own up to doing something wrong...sellout streak bedamned. This incessant charade for the pink hats is dragging this franchise into the gutter.

[Detts]

The only reason to fire Bobby now is if you think there is a better option in-house to allow that person a chance to 'prove themself' and/or 'right the ship in time to make the playoffs'.

Yah, we don't seem to have that.

Let it ride.

[DLew On Roids]

I'd have fired him in his office the night he ran McDonald out on the hill to pitch in extra innings when Showalter was begging the Sox to win the damn game. His performance has been everything wrong with this season in microcosm.

[teddywingman]

I don't know what they should do re: Bobby V.

Does this team's record have anything to do with who's at the helm? I doubt it.

Yet my impression so far is negative. He talks about too much and too often--it makes him seem like an outcast in his own dugout.

What did the crew at the seminar think of him?

[TheoShmeo]

I voted no but the reason is not because I'm undecided about next season. They need someone new. Of that there can be no doubt.

Still, why start now? This season is toast. Let the new man start fresh next season with none of the current stink around this team as an encumbrance.

[Trautwein's Degree]

Valentine should be fired immediately. He's not coming back next season. There's no reason to keep him around any longer. Appoint an interim manager for the rest of this season and begin a new managerial search.

[brs3]

Do it now, you need to attempt to create some positive momentum for the rest of the season and headed into next year. If I were John Henry, I'd be on the phone offering Tito a blank check and a public apology. The organization and "brand" is in free fall and needs to find some way to change direction. Far deeper issues than the manager, but they are stuck with the roster and need to find a way to make it work. Only other option is gutting the roster, taking pennies on the dollar, and turning things over to a young managerial hire.

This would be hilarious.

Ride the wave, I say. The Sox are toast this season, and firing Bobby V won't change the next 50+ games. That's all they're playing with. If things were different(ie, they had a remote chance, and maybe this question was posed a month+ ago), maybe it'd be worth it. I suspect they're considering manager options for next season(I hope), and 2012 is already written off.

As for Terry Francona, he'll probably have a new job for 2013, so Bobby V can return to his gig in the booth.

[teddywingman]

I don't know if this has been said before, but I'd like to know what you all think--

The hiring of the high profile Valentine seemed so wrong, and yet so typical of this team in the post championship years. It's like the front office felt they needed an established 'star' at manager in order for the pink hats to accept the departure of rock star status Tito.

[CR67dream]

While I get all the Bobby V hate given his history and reputation, I find most of it to be misplaced when it comes to the performance of this team, this year, While I certainly didn't support the hire, he is not the reason this team sucks. He's a lightning rod, and that's kind of sad in this case, because there are many, many characters in this drama who are far more deserving of the tar and feathers, both above and below BV in the food chain.

[BigMike]

Valentine should be fired immediately. He's not coming back next season. There's no reason to keep him around any longer. Appoint an interim manager for the rest of this season and begin a new managerial search.

and if you fire Bobby V and hire tim Bogar and the rest of the staff stays, and the team performs better and goes 33-21, and still finishes 2 games out of the postseason, now are you stuck with Tim Bogar for next year? Can you fire him if he takes a below 500 team and wins 60% of the games?

Personally I think they need a housecleaning, so I will wait til season's end where it is easier to just let everyone go

[drbretto]

I don't think he's the problem. He inherited this team and its problems. I can't say he has really helped anything either, but I don't think there was a damn thing he could have done to fix this team. There's blame to share at every level of the entire organization, from the owners to the goddamn hot dog sellers. Firing Bobby V now will not accomplish anything but give the mediots something to talk about for a couple of days while whoever they hire next gets anointed as the great savior when the team randomly happens to win 6-7 in a row, followed by the same shit we've seen all year for the rest of the season.

You have to ride it out. Just let the season play out then take a look at everything in the off season. No one's job should be completely safe either. Not Bobby's, not Lucky's, not Lester's or even Pedroia's (though if they got rid of him I may just stop watching baseball altogether).

[RedOctober3829]

Sean McAdam was saying on the Baseball Show today that no one except young players such as Middlebrooks and Doubront should be untouchable this offseason and I tend to agree with him. Bobby V is not the sole problem of this team just like Tito wasn't all to blame for last September. There needs to be major changes going into next season and I don't trust this management team to make the correct ones.

[shepard50]

It's time for Bobby to go. I think he's been pretty good at in-game managing and absolutely abysmal at everything else. I agree with Red and multiple posters who point out that there is a lot more to fix than the manager, but it's a good starting place. Doing it now also let's you try multiple internal looks before a major offseason shakeup. We have enough youth and enough money coming off the books in the next 1-3 years that you can build semi-foundationally if you start this offseason.

Bobby isn't dumb, he's just not right for this team. In a town where less ego is better, Bobby is an epic fail.

[mauidano]

While I get all the Bobby V hate given his history and reputation, I find most of it to be misplaced when it comes to the performance of this team, this year, While I certainly didn't support the hire, he is not the reason this team sucks. He's a lightning rod, and that's kind of sad in this case, because there are many, many characters in this drama who are far more deserving of the tar and feathers, both above and below BV in the food chain.

Excellent.

[mauidano]

It's time for Bobby to go. I think he's been pretty good at in-game managing and absolutely abysmal at everything else. I agree with Red and multiple posters who point out that there is a lot more to fix than the manager, but it's a good starting place. Doing it now also let's you try multiple internal looks before a major offseason shakeup. We have enough youth and enough money coming off the books in the next 1-3 years that you can build semi-foundationally if you start this offseason.

Bobby isn't dumb, he's just not right for this team. In a town where less ego is better, Bobby is an epic fail.

Why would do that? Just so you can feel better for a moment? Selfish. Let the season play out and we'll see where everyone stands.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Do it now, you need to attempt to create some positive momentum for the rest of the season and headed into next year. If I were John Henry, I'd be on the phone offering Tito a blank check and a public apology. The organization and "brand" is in free fall and needs to find some way to change direction. Far deeper issues than the manager, but they are stuck with the roster and need to find a way to make it work. Only other option is gutting the roster, taking pennies on the dollar, and turning things over to a young managerial hire.

You really believe this? You think Terry Francona could win with this roster, replete with the injuries the Sox have suffered? Some people here seem to want to gloss over things but Terry Francona isn't the answer and hasn't been the answer in at least a full season. Do we really need to rehash this argument again Rudy? Tito admitted himself that he had lost the team after last season.

Francona should not have come back after last season, the Sox don't need to resign Derek Lowe or bring back Damon. Theo can rot in Chicago too. The best those guys gave the Red Sox is long gone and it is never, ever coming back. The peak versions of those guys aren't walking through that door.

As for Valentine, he has been underwhelming for sure. And simply based on appearances, it looks like he is either really uncomfortable fronting this team or has serious regularity issues.

That said, he was dealt a bad hand. He followed a widely beloved manager and people had high (and apparently unrealistic) expectations for a roster laden with baggage, and candidates for serious age-related decline. Of course, this was before all the injuries happened.

While you can quibble with Bobby Valentine's managerial style or the way he deals with the media, the team's poor performance is more a function of the roster make-up/injuries. Firing him now just perpetuates the media circus. Let him go in after the season ends if he doesn't choose to leave on his own. That's the quietest and cleanest way to go.

[shepard50]

Why would do that? Just so you can feel better for a moment? Selfish. Let the season play out and we'll see where everyone stands.

It's not a feel good move, re-read my post. I said "Doing it now also let's you try multiple internal looks before a major offseason shakeup".

If you are troubleshooting, you eliminate possibility after possibility and check all the other component parts as you go. Let's see what we have without Bobby. Let's see what we have in the coaches, players, training staff etc. And I am fine with eliminating a lot more component parts as we go.

Bobby has consistently failed at his job. I don't know what else there is to see before acting.

[941827]

What is the goal at this point?

If the goal is to make the WC coin-flip game, then you fire BV right around the time Ortiz comes back and try to spark this team into a Morgan Magic-type run. This would be a better plan if Tony Pena were the bench coach rather than Tim Bogar, but it is what it is. You tell Bogar that he should demand player accountability without being a jerk about it and otherwise run the club as he sees fit.

If the goal is to make the team better in the long term, you keep BV and clear the decks. Shut Crawford down and send him out for his surgery (assuming he needs it) so there is some chance he can play well in 2013; trade any reliever who can land you a decent prospect -- there are numerous teams dying for relief help right now; move Ross if anyone's interested; convince the Rangers to take Beckett; etc. Let BV captain the sinking ship, then dump him in the off-season.

And just to be clear, BV should be fired not because of the team's record, but because he has failed to do what he was hired to do. He was hired because Tito didn't make the players sufficiently accountable. The new era of accountability has included Sweeney hurting himself in the dugout by stupidly punching a door, the players welcoming Tito into the clubhouse pre-game (which was done to show up BV), numerous defensive miscues due to mental errors (which were going to be stamped out in the new era), Beckett and Lester falling apart, and one example after another of incompetence on the manager's part (not knowing which hand the opposing starter threw with, not knowing how Crawford was to be handled, not talking to his coaches, etc.). Get him out of here.

[CR67dream]

Bobby has consistently failed at his job. I don't know what else there is to see before acting.

Well, his success, as with any manager, only occurs if others excel, or at least perform to expectations. Would our supposed top 2 starters, whose performance to date seems quite clearly to be the primary reason for the record being what it is, be performing better if Bobby V wasn't here? If so, shame on them. If not, then this is all just crucifying a convenient and unliked-from-the-beginning scapegoat. It's great to have a target for the anger, but if the goal is to make the Boston Red Sox a better team, firing Bobby V now ain't gonna flip that switch.

[Harry Hooper]

Well said, CR67dream.



The Sox could try this. Ownership privately works out a deal with BobbyV where he'll move into the front office after the season.

However, they publicly announce he's been signed to a a 3-year extension. Players figure "Oh shit, he's not going anywhere," so it's time to do their jobs and produce. BobbyV can go to the whip on them as he's no longer worried about next year. It just might be enough shock therapy to get a WC slot.

Season over, BobbyV announces the rigors of managing are more than he expected blah blah blah, and he's joining the front office as the new Bill Lajoie. His talent evaluation skills would help out there.

The Sox get a new manager for 2013 among other housecleaning moves.

Unfortunately, the big flaw in the plan is that I doubt BobbyV could keep his mouth shut and not blow the secret.

[E5 Yaz]

Well said, CR67dream..

I'll second that.

The problems are systemic. Valentine signed on not realizing how mucked up the front office and the roster were. It's not his fault that his preferred back end of the pen -- Melancon, Bard and Bailey -- pumpkined, got screwed up and got hurt. Throw in the outfield injuries, Pedroia's mediocre and injured year and the Beckett/Lester issues, it's a wonder the record isn't worse.

I'm no BV fan by any description, but the on-field record isn't his doing. The off-field stuff, from the moment his tweaked Jeter about the Giambi play, has been a distraction that wasn't needed in what should have been a re-establishment season. As time has gone on, his answers and deflections and oddball statements in the media paint him (right or wrong) as just a guy who happens to be in the dugout this season.

Someone in management, and we all probably know who, wanted to make a statement with the Valentine hire ... to (properly) change the approach of the team. They let the GM and manager walk, didn't interview the bench coach for the manager's job, nudged the two senior players into retirement and greased the skids on the fourth-longest tenured player. Regardless of Tek, Wake and Youk's diminished or disappeared skills, they were cornerstones in the clubhouse.

This wasn't all done by coincidence. Every significant authority figure was moved out ... well, except Lucchino ... with the indication that this would clear the slate for BV to come in and get things in order. And the first thing they did to him was deny his choice for bench coach.

The season looks more and more like a lost cause. Might as well trade some pieces through the waiver process and play the kids. Putting a new manager in the dugout at this stage doesn't seem like it would change things.

[mauidano]

Well, his success, as with any manager, only occurs if others excel, or at least perform to expectations. Would our supposed top 2 starters, whose performance to date seems quite clearly to be the primary reason for the record being what it is, be performing better if Bobby V wasn't here? If so, shame on them. If not, then this is all just crucifying a convenient and unliked-from-the-beginning scapegoat. It's great to have a target for the anger, but if the goal is to make the Boston Red Sox a better team, firing Bobby V now ain't gonna flip that switch.

Again, common sense and logic.

[Trautwein's Degree]

Well, his success, as with any manager, only occurs if others excel, or at least perform to expectations. Would our supposed top 2 starters, whose performance to date seems quite clearly to be the primary reason for the record being what it is, be performing better if Bobby V wasn't here? If so, shame on them. If not, then this is all just crucifying a convenient and unliked-from-the-beginning scapegoat. It's great to have a target for the anger, but if the goal is to make the Boston Red Sox a better team, firing Bobby V now ain't gonna flip that switch.

Firing Valentine does nothing to solve the problems of this team. From all that's been written and said about this team and Valentine's relationship with it - he will not be back in 2013.

The players have succeeded in forcing two managerial changes in a year.

The lack of starting pitching is a roster issue and something Valentine has no control over. This team will not contend until it drastically overhauls its rotation.

The best case scenario is they are 3 years away from contending. The organization is not flush with pitching prospects who are close to M L B ready.

I don't know why anyone other than someone looking for a promotion or desperate for work would want to step into this mess.

[Rudy Pemberton]

You really believe this? You think Terry Francona could win with this roster, replete with the injuries the Sox have suffered? Some people here seem to want to gloss over things but Terry Francona isn't the answer and hasn't been the answer in at least a full season. Do we really need to rehash this argument again Rudy? Tito admitted himself that he had lost the team after last season.

I don't know that Tito could win with this roster, but the organization needs to build positive momentum. They are stuck with this roster, and Tito does have a relationship with many of these guys. Could an empowered Tito, on a long term deal, get this team headed in the right direction? Could he get people focused on baseball again? I'd like I believe it, but I also wanted to believe in Bobby v so I fully admit that it's wishful thinking, never gonna happen, and wouldn't matter. I struggle to see who could win with this group; i expect the next manager to be an inexperienced Robin Ventura type.

Ultimately, I guess I just like the idea of management admitting that the manager wasn't the problem last year. If anything, hasn't the season taught us that? Although sadly, I worry that changing the manager will again only result in a new manager, and everything else remaining the same.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 05 August 2012 - 07:02 AM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

JakeRae, I think the poll needs fixing -- it won't accept a submission that doesn't answer all three questions.

If it were up to me, I'd fire him now, but I don't think there's much urgency about it, because this season is toast anyway. But if he opens 2013 in the Sox dugout, I'll be really depressed.

I think he's shown so far this year that he's pretty much exactly what we were told to expect: a good in-game manager, but a godawful clubhouse manager and a loose cannon to boot. And I don't think that combination will ever work in this town.

[Dick Pole Upside]

Along with others, I'll double-ditto CR67's comments.

All the 2011 holdovers (players and coaches) are to blame, IMO.

They had the ultimate laissez-faire, no-player-accountability, "I'll cover for you" manager in Tito. This worked for years to keep clubhouse shenanigans out of the press, until the players collectively stopped performing and the lid blew off.

Now, the same players continue to underperform with a manager who is very opinionated and attempted to re-focus performance on the fundamentals during Spring Training. That the coaches aren't all aligned only exacerbates the situation.

The FO put all this in place, but the 2011 players and coaches have refused to make it work. They will soon be double Coach Killers.

Firing BV now accomplishes nothing. I don't even think it really provides the team the opportunity to see if some of the other guys (Bogar? Seriously? Where has HE been all season?) would work. That would be a lipstick-on-a-pig move.

Wait until the offseason, and burn it down.

[bombdiggz]

Originally, I was leaning towards firing Valentine in the offseason, but then I thought, what is the downside of firing him now?

I've never seen a team play this bad. There are a lot of talented players on the field, but I don't see a team. Thats the main responsibility of the manager to get the team to coalesce around the goal of winning ballgames. Not to mention all of the stupid PR mistakes that indicate Valentine just can't hack it. Calling out Youkilis, Middlebrooks, etc.

Sure, Valentine ain't the one giving up the runs to lose all of these games in which the Sox have scored 5+ runs, but at some point you have to ask what is causing this seemingly implausible on-field performance?

[Doctor G]

To fire Bobby now would be punishing him for the fact that Ortiz got hurt. If David hadn't gotten hurt the current picture would be a lot brighter. It would also have the effect of showing tha players particularly the ones jumping the chain of command that they really are in charge. This accomplishes nothing.

Evaluations can wait till September and October, and should start with Cherington and baseball ops who built this team.

[someoneanywhere]

Evaluations can wait till September and October, and should start with Cherington and baseball ops who built this team.

This suggests there are fundamental flaws with the team.

To fire Bobby now would be punishing him for the fact that Ortiz got hurt. If David hadn't gotten hurt the current picture would be a lot brighter.

This suggests there are not.

[Savin Hillbilly]

It would also have the effect of showing tha players particularly the ones jumping the chain of command that they really are in charge.

This begs the question of whether the fundamental problem is a mutinous crew or an out-of-control captain.

My mind keeps coming back to The Caine Mutiny. There's a great scene at the end where the lawyer who gets the mutineers off gives them a tongue-lashing at the victory party, saying, in essence, "sure Queeg was a mess, but if you guys had given him the support he was entitled to, he would have managed OK." And that may well apply to the Sox situation.

Nonetheless, in the Caine story, the captain really was a mess, and the ship would have been better off with a different one. And that may apply here too.

[bosockboy]

The elephant in the room is Farrell. If they truly want him, do they let BV hold his place another year? Can you convince someone else to take the job if they know the Sox lust after Farrell? You could keep BV for that reason and then see Toronto extend Farrell.

Lots of tentacles to consider regarding Farrell..if that's who they truly lust for long term.

[TomRicardo]

Why the hell would Farrell want to come here?

Lucchino needs to step back. That isn't happening so who cares. Henry can watch his team burn down in flames. People will just watch the Celtics, Patriots, and Bruins. Congrats on the fourth best show in town Henry.

Edited by TomRicardo, 05 August 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Rasputin]

That Bobby V isn't the sole reason for the results so far is a completely shitty reason not to fire him.

The decision should really go like this.

Has he done a good job?

No.

Can we do better?

Yes.

Goodbye.

And the same, btw applies to the players. It's harder to replace them, of course, but still.

[Plympton91]

I don't think Valentine's in game moves or whatever input he's had on decisions of how to manage the 25-man roster have been bad, on net. He's gotten tremendous results from a bunch of AAAA players by riding their hot steaks and managing their weaknesses. He's gotten much more out of a bad bullpen than ownership could hope to imagine. After April, his decisions about when to pull starting pitchers have been very good and in April he could be forgiven because of the horrendous bullpen he was handed by management.

Therefore, a decision to fire Valentine would have to be based on off-field considerations. This could work out well. But, if it worked out well, then that would mean that the players undermined the manager and tanked the 2012 season because they're a bunch of spoiled crybabies. That would make it nearly impossible to root for the team anyway until they completely excised this group of players. This could work out poorly. The same entitled crybabies who refused to play for this manager would be empowered to undermine any other manager they didn't like (i.e., a manager that held them accountable) and the results would be the same as under Valentine.

So, to me, the proper move by management is to give Valentine and extension, let him fire two coaches and replace them with whoever he wants, and continue to purge the team of veterans of the collapse, replacing them with hungry young players whose major league future depends on playing hard for whatever manager they happen to have the pleasure of being under while on a major league roster, getting $500,000 plus hundreds a day in meal money each summer to play a child's game.

[StuckOnYouk]

I'll bet you at the end of the year (or September maybe if the Sox are out of it), he quits and dumps on everyone on his way out. He doesn't seem like the type of guy who likes to get beaten up by the players, media etc and just take it. I think he's gonna go out on his terms especially if he gets an inkling he's going to get axed anyway in the long run.

Him quitting lets Lucchino save face by not having to fire the guy he hired. And it lets Bobby save face by not getting dumped. And he gets to go out guns a blazing on his terms. Probably holds a huge interview with a Cafardo on his way out and just opens up on everything in what will be an incredibly fascinating must read.

Then go get his cushy job back at ESPN or MLB network, etc. and go back to tending to his restaurant.

[lexrageorge]

I got news for the folks that seem to think this team has "too much talent": they don't. Enough with the small sample size nonsense; the team just isn't that good. The primary flaw is starting pitching, but that is far from the only one. There is no magic genie in the bottle waiting for a healthy Ortiz (which could be a longer wait than we want to accept) or for a new manager to show up before coming to life. Just a reality that a lot of the team's core players got older faster than we expected.

Valentine has done a decent job given the mess he inherited, and given the lack of support he's receiving. The Middlebrooks snitch should either have been fired or DFA'd or traded; I tend to doubt it was anyone substantial on the roster. We already have too many Shoppach's and Sweeney's and Padilla's on the roster; one fewer isn't going to hurt anything. Although I am surprised noone has advanced the theory that the snitch was Youkilis.

If they want to fire the manager, they should clean house from Cherington on down through the assistant coaches and training staff, and start over. We would all love for LL to go, but that ain't happening. Neither is Tito's return (some bridges are best left unrepaired).

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Therefore, a decision to fire Valentine would have to be based on off-field considerations. This could work out well. But, if it worked out well, then that would mean that the players undermined the manager and tanked the 2012 season because they're a bunch of spoiled crybabies. That would make it nearly impossible to root for the team anyway until they completely excised this group of players. This could work out poorly. The same entitled crybabies who refused to play for this manager would be empowered to undermine any other manager they didn't like (i.e., a manager that held them accountable) and the results would be the same as under Valentine.

This is the dumbest thing I've read in a long while. You're talking primarily about Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, Pedroia, Ortiz, Gonzalez, Ellsbury. These guys got the fan ball-wash until last September. They'll get that same treatment again when they perform up to the best of their abilities, regardless of personality flaws.

Question: Who cares if the "spoiled crybabies" got BobbyV canned if they win?

Answer: Maybe holier-than-thou moralists like PeteAbe, Cafardo, CHB, and Gerry Callahan. No one else will give a rat's ass.

I mean really, in 2004 didn't we unconditionally love utter assholes like Manny Ramirez?

[Rasputin]

I'll bet you at the end of the year (or September maybe if the Sox are out of it), he quits and dumps on everyone on his way out. He doesn't seem like the type of guy who likes to get beaten up by the players, media etc and just take it. I think he's gonna go out on his terms especially if he gets an inkling he's going to get axed anyway in the long run.

How would that not eliminate any chance he ever has of getting another managing job?

Be out of the game for a decade, get a job, do poorly, burn bridges on the way out...he only does this if he doesn't want to work again.

[Doctor G]

I got news for the folks that seem to think this team has "too much talent": they don't. Enough with the small sample size nonsense; the team just isn't that good. The primary flaw is starting pitching, but that is far from the only one. There is no magic genie in the bottle waiting for a healthy Ortiz (which could be a longer wait than we want to accept) or for a new manager to show up before coming to life. Just a reality that a lot of the team's core players got older faster than we expected.

Valentine has done a decent job given the mess he inherited, and given the lack of support he's receiving. The Middlebrooks snitch should either have been fired or DFA'd or traded; I tend to doubt it was anyone substantial on the roster. We already have too many Shoppach's and Sweeney's and Padilla's on the roster; one fewer isn't going to hurt anything. Although I am surprised noone has advanced the theory that the snitch was Youkilis.

If they want to fire the manager, they should clean house from Cherington on down through the assistant coaches and training staff, and start over. We would all love for LL to go, but that ain't happening. Neither is Tito's return (some bridges are best left unrepaired).

i would guess the Middlebrooks snitch was Pedroia. Unsubstantial borderline players don't gamble their futures on the state of mind of rookie third basemen who are more secure than they are.

[maufman]

There's a sequence of questions that need to be answered, and whether BV should be fired is about fourth in line.

1. Will LL be forced into retirement?
2. Will Ben Cherington be demoted or fired?
3. Which key players will be placed on the trading block this winter, or allowed to leave via free agency?
4. Who will manage this team in 2013?

I expect a shake up in the top levels of the organization. Most likely, this means LL firing Ben, but it could mean LL retiring and being replaced by a club President who would take a far more active role in baseball ops -- which would be a demotion for Ben, but would allow him to avoid losing face by being fired. Or, a new President might keep his hands off baseball ops, but decide that someone besides Ben should be running the show. Or, it might mean a new President retaining Ben, but keeping him on a short leash and/or micromanaging him differently from the way that LL has (if press reports are to be believed) micromanaged him. Or, it might mean a new President letting Ben run the show as he sees fit.

In any event, I think the odds of having the same FO configuration in April 2013 as today are significantly less than 50/50.

As a general rule, managers who are working for a GM other than the guy who hired them have a short shelf-life. This will be true in Boston whether BV remains at the helm for the rest of the season or is fired now. Because 3 managerial changes in the space of 18-24 months would be bad for the organization, I think BV should stay on until the status of the key players in the FO is resolved. If the new FO sees 2013 as (another) transition year, they may want BV to remain to preside over the house-cleaning, allowing their preferred manager to take the helm in 2014 with a clean slate. (This is particularly true if the new GM wants to get rid of some of the players who have had the most difficult relationships with BV.)

In sum, let BV finish out the season. An in-season firing would sacrifice longer-term stability in exchange for a (perhaps) better shot at the playoffs in 2012. At this point, that's a bad move.

Edited by maufman, 05 August 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[Captaincoop]

Firing him now would literally accomplish nothing. This season is lost, and the main reason it is lost is entirely unrelated to Bobby V. All that making a move now will do is reconfirm for the jerks on this team that they are still in charge. Which is exactly what we should not want to happen.