41 replies to this topic

[MarkInLondon]

The first doping allegations

I did raise a quizzical eyebrow when watching the race in question. Ye's performance over the last 100m was like a Formula 1 car going past an articulated lorry.

Typical of the Chinese - never do anything subtly...

[Hendu's Gait]

I agree with Leonard and you. I hope justice prevails.

Edited by Hendu's Gait, 30 July 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[Fred not Lynn]

"Wow, she was really fast. Holy shit was she fast! There's no way she coulda done that clean..." isn't enough. Come back to me when you find some actual evidence of doping. And say hello to Lance Armstrong if you run into him while you're looking.

I do like the keeping blood for 8 years part. I don't know if that'll keep people honest until some retroactive disqualifications occur, though.

[lostjumper]

Come back to me when you find some actual evidence of doping.

I thought the third arm growing out of her forehead was a dead give away but I could be wrong. Next week when one of the chinese women beat Bolt straight up in the 100 meter dash we can chalk it up to their "nutritional program".

Edited by lostjumper, 30 July 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[Nator]

From the article:

Ye was more than seven seconds faster in the Olympic 400m individual medley final than she had been in the World Championship equivalent last July

Really? Why not just strap an outboard motor onto her bathing suit?

[bowiac]

Beat Lochte's split is pretty crazy on the face of it, but does anyone know the precedent for this? Is this eyebrow raising, or so obvious that we shouldn't take it seriously?

[Average Reds]

Beat Lochte's split is pretty crazy on the face of it, but does anyone know the precedent for this? Is this eyebrow raising, or so obvious that we shouldn't take it seriously?

In terms of a performance jump, the only thing I can think of that was similar was the leap made by Michelle Smith of Ireland, who went from being an average swimmer at international meets to smashing world records in a very short period of time. (Her improvement came after she began training with Erik de Bruin, who had been banned from competing in the discuss after testing positive for steroids.) Her fellow swimmers complained publicly that no swimmer could credibly claim to make such an improvement after competing at the international level for 8 years, but despite the controversy, she passed all of the doping tests. Of course, she was later caught providing a fraudulent sample during an out-of-competition testing in 1998 and was eventually banned from competition. But her Olympic records stand to this day.

This case is as obvious as Smith's. This does not mean she will test positive - Smith didn't either - but it does mean she is doping.

[sibpin]

"Beat Lochte's split" makes a good headline, but it in itself doesn't necessarily indicate cheating. Lochte's strength in the IM is his backstroke more than anything else and that 50 freestyle comes at the end of the second-most grueling event in the pool. For example, every female 100 free swimmer beats Lochte's final 50 split and the 200 free swimmers come pretty close. He also was 3-4 seconds ahead of second place and could cruise a little bit on that last 50 / finish knowing he has a dozen more swims to go during the week. So this widely-cited benchmark is not an insurmountable or impossible achievement by any odds. A 7-second improvement over the course of a year also isn't that crazy in the 400 IM (1 second improvement per 50), especially at 16.

Now, it's certainly strange and suspicious that someone could swim the first 300 meters competitively with the world's best heat and then really turn it on during that last 100. It's not impossible, as "unnamed American officials" say, but that's very much an abnormal performance. I think suspicion is absolutely warranted given all the facts we have together (including China's reputation), but I think it's still theoretically possible that she was legitimately unpredictably successful and it's a bit unfair to pin her as guilty immediately. Phelps chaining together 8 gold medal performances was far more out of the ordinary, but it doesn't raise suspicion because his track record made it predictable.

Edited by sibpin, 30 July 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Lochte's strength in the IM is his backstroke more than anything else and that 50 freestyle comes at the end of the second-most grueling event in the pool.

For example, every female 100 free swimmer beats Lochte's final 50 split and the 200 free swimmers come pretty close.

It was the same event---400 IM vs. 400 IM! It's an apples-to-apples comparison. (And it's not like Lochte isn't a good freestyle swimmer, either...)

He also was 3-4 seconds ahead of second place and could cruise a little bit on that last 50 / finish knowing he has a dozen more swims to go during the week. So this widely-cited benchmark is not an insurmountable or impossible achievement by any odds. A 7-second improvement over the course of a year also isn't that crazy in the 400 IM (1 second improvement per 50), especially at 16.

This, on the other hand, is a credible rebuttal.

Edited by Mr. Wednesday, 31 July 2012 - 12:29 AM.

[Fred not Lynn]

I thought the third arm growing out of her forehead was a dead give away but I could be wrong. Next week when one of the chinese women beat Bolt straight up in the 100 meter dash we can chalk it up to their "nutritional program".

Don't get me wrong, she's probably filthy - but until you got something, you got nothing. There's no Olympic rule against going too damn fast.

[SoxFanInCali]

Just imagine if Bob Beamon's record jump had been made today. No matter how many drug tests he passed, most would assume he cheated.

[sibpin]

It's IM vs. IM, so there's at least some commonality. I'd be curious about the usual trends on these splits. (And it's not like Lochte isn't a good freestyle swimmer, either...)

Swimming the 400 IM at Olympic Trials, Lochte had the 13th-fastest (out of 109) final 50 split in the Prelims and 4th-fastest (out of 8) final 50 split in the Finals, finishing first overall in both. So he's still a top dog, but not the highest bar in terms of the final 50. None of the US women broke a 30 second 50 free split in either the 200 or 400 IM at trials.

Don't get me wrong, her freestyle split is definitely ridiculous. The greater point I was trying to make is that people like predictability, storyline, and reasons for things happening. When an athlete has an unpredictable abnormal performance, people want to try to find a way to explain it, and if the only tools you have at your disposal are coverage of the U.S. trials, NBC puff pieces, and Rowdy Gaines, the only explanation left is drugs. If she had been an American athlete, nobody would have blinked at her 4:28 after she put up a 4:33 last October, or maybe people would be familiar with her reputation of dominating the freestyle leg when she did the same thing in the 200 IM last year. A little more research by the public or the media would have made this seem a lot more like the culmination of training for the race of her life rather than a bizarre, unpredictable fluke.

FYI, never heard of her until today, this is just powered by an open mind and a Google search.

Edited by sibpin, 31 July 2012 - 12:53 AM.

[epraz]

"We want to be very careful about calling it doping," said Leonard, who is also the executive director of the USA Swimming Coaches Association.

"The one thing I will say is that history in our sport will tell you that every time we see something, and I will put quotation marks around this, 'unbelievable', history shows us that it turns out later on there was doping involved. That last 100m was reminiscent of some old East German swimmers, for people who have been around a while. It was reminiscent of the 400m individual medley by a young Irish woman in Atlanta."

He's being very careful.

[sibpin]

Given how many times John Leonard dropped his "years of experience" and other resume line items into the article, I think this is a case of an opportunist trying to get his name out teaming up with a journalist trying to get some page views. BBC reports that the USOC has distanced itself from Leonard's comments and is sending diplomats to the Chinese team to smooth things over.

[sibpin]

This issue is escalating.

First, Leonard has told Yahoo Sports that Ye's 200 freestyle split is proof that she's doping AND that her coach has asked her to "tone down" her excellence.

The former head of the Chinese offices of Microsoft and Google chimed in on Weibo (Chinese Twitter) with Leonard's personal details, allowing his 15M followers to contact him directly. He also ominously referred to Leonard being guilty of some crimes.

Leonard is also suspected to be the ringleader in covering up sexual abuse by coaches that are members of his coaching association. WBAL published an investigative report and Swim Brief identified instances where he had been celebrating coaches arrested for sexual offenses.

[reggiecleveland]

To be fair the American media is always even handed when an athlete does something extraordinary and "disturbing." I mean if it was an american they would not make a hero of her.



Also before the Ben Johnson posts, that is my point in a Olympics where a world record holder who had passed over 30 tests was caught there was not a peep of specualtion about Flojo in the USA's media.

Edited by reggiecleveland, 03 August 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[EdRalphRomero]

I assume most of these athletes are using PEDs -- to different extents and with different degrees of effectiveness.

[SoxFanInCali]

To be fair the American media is always even handed when an athlete does something extraordinary and "disturbing." I mean if it was an american they would not make a hero of her.



Also before the Ben Johnson posts, that is my point in a Olympics where a world record holder who had passed over 30 tests was caught there was not a peep of specualtion about Flojo in the USA's media.

I don't think the public was as aware of how widespread doping was at that point, or how sophisticated the methods of masking were.

You are right that there wasn't speculation about FloJo at the time, but I don't really remember any speculation about Johnson in the lead-up to his battle with Carl Lewis. I remember being shocked when he tested positive and lost his medal. Once the lid was blown off the BALCO case, everyone pretty much assumed FloJo was dirty even without any failed tests to prove it.

[johnmd20]

I assume most of these athletes are using PEDs -- to different extents and with different degrees of effectiveness.

I find no fault with your assumptions. I couldn't agree more, some(most?) are doing something. There is too much upside in trying to beat the tests to not try, especially considering the sophistication of the scientists.

[ossie schreckengost]

the disposable heroes of hypocrisy.

thank god missy has no slanted eyes and is from pasadena, ca.

[reggiecleveland]

I don't think the public was as aware of how widespread doping was at that point, or how sophisticated the methods of masking were.

You are right that there wasn't speculation about FloJo at the time, but I don't really remember any speculation about Johnson in the lead-up to his battle with Carl Lewis. I remember being shocked when he tested positive and lost his medal. Once the lid was blown off the BALCO case, everyone pretty much assumed FloJo was dirty even without any failed tests to prove it.
Once the lid was blown off the BALCO case, everyone pretty much assumed FloJo was dirty even without any failed tests to prove it.

I was a college basketball in Canada at the time, but in our circles it was common knowledge Ben was juicing. Of course the suspicions were in about Carl Lewis too.

I am still infuriated over how Ben was villainized and Flo-Jo was a hero. It is absolute jingoistic bullshit that there were no suspicions about her, but since she was american it was all okay. I can remember Bob Costas going from an in studio interview of Carl Lewis talking about how terrible it was Ben cheated and ruined the Olympic ideal right into feature about how snazzy Flo Jo was faster than Jesse Owens, "What a gal!"

Then in Atlanta when Bailley won the 100, suddenly the 200 winner was the fastest man alive and Costas said the dumbest thing ever by any sports talking head, if you divided Jonhson's 200 time in half it showed he was faster. And When Johnson broke the record of a convicted juicer not a peep, it was just the golden shoes. American TV coverage of the Olympics makes Pravda look like it was fair and balanced.

I can't even imagine what will happen if they add an event or two to the pool and some non-American comes along and wins 9 gold in one Olympics.

I have to laugh at Americans pointing the finger America fought every positive test of an American athlete for years. There is a direct line from Flo-Jo to Barry Bonds. I mean the dirtiest sport of all is cycling and when an American won it 7 times in row he was sainted figure and it was sacrilege to say he may have cheated, he just beat everyone else who was cheating.

I don't know if this Chinese girl is clean, but I expect she is as clean as Phelps.

The Olympics are cleaner than before. The speeds in track have as much to do with faster surfaces and the leveling effects of globalization and shoe company money allowing Jamaica and African nations being able to have training programs of there own. I'll say it, at one time the only black athletes getting trained were from minority groups in the west. There was a girl from Nigeria that walked across the line in 9.99 today. Sure she has had NCAA training but the fact is she was world Jr. star long before she came to the states, and when she graduates she will go home and get great coaching and training. 20 years ago she would be 3 or 4 years behind where she is now. Evelyn Ashford had to beat the sisters from the USa, maybe a few from France or Britain or Canada and some Jamaican girls that were years behind her because they were running on dirt track until UCLA found them. Of course she also had Soviets on the juice.

[jon abbey]

I had a good friend on the 1988 US Olympic team, not track but friends with many track athletes, and he said every single person on the US track team was juicing.

[johnmd20]

the disposable heroes of hypocrisy.

thank god missy has no slanted eyes and is from pasadena, ca.

Garbage post and it takes a leap I'm uncomfortable with. When I said almost everyone, I meant almost everyone. Including the US athletes. In fact, it's almost more likely the US people are juicing because they have the money, the science, the technology, and the desire. I would say China is in that same realm as the US.

When it comes to doping, I fall along the line of everyone is guilty and never proven innocent. And there isn't anything I can do about it. Thus, it's fine with me, the playing field is level in that regard.

[reggiecleveland]

But the point is the cute white girl from America doesn't have to put up with the accusations from the media.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Except for when she did.


It should be noted that the Chinese girl didn't catch heat for winning the race, or for going faster than she had before to win the race, she caught heat for going unbelievably fast to win the race. If she had achieved the same result, but not been quite so fast, eyebrows might have been raised, but nobody would have been leveling accusations.

Edited by Mr. Wednesday, 04 August 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[Fred not Lynn]

Big difference in the 1980's between Americans doping and east bloc - when Americans did it, and likely some did, they did it on their own. Each athlete made their own personal choice about doping. In the USSR, GDR etc (China came along later, they hired all the GDR coaches after re-unification) it was systematic, and non-voluntary.

The visual doping test was easy back then; If an athlete had pictures of stuff you could buy at Home Depot on their uniform, they were on drugs.

Point is, finding one American doping, didn't mean they all were.

[reggiecleveland]

Sorry that is not quite right. It was the American system that covered up Carl Lewis' positive tests, etc. Also they are different systems, there is no way in free enterprise word everyone would be under one system. Charlie Francis had a track club with Ben Johnson and other using drugs that allowed them to rise to the top, it was a system. The American weight lifters pioneered juice and the national training center was a big needle party, that was a system. Balco was a system, but just like any difference between commies and the west the USA let free enterprise take care of the cheating. Just like everything else it worked better and was more efficient. The USA, for a long time, testing their own athletes just like the USSR and did not report the findings. They tested to see who was okay to go.

There are mixed stories about the involuntary use of juice. A few of the GDR swimmers say that athletes that refused the shots were not kicked out of the program. but kept training and were left behind. The motivation, again is parallel nobody made Justin Gatlin or Marion Jones juice but the pressure was there. An East German in the 70s lost her apartment and went back to the food lines, an American, or Brit or Canadian lost the NIke contract. There is no coincidence once the amateur rules disappeared in the 80s juice took off in the west.

If she had achieved the same result, but not been quite so fast, eyebrows might have been raised, but nobody would have been leveling accusations.

But others have shown it was not so unbelievable compared to other swimmers. Is it more unbelievable what she did or what Phelps has done? What Lance Armstrong did was unbelievable, what Flo Jo did was a fucking joke. Nothing was said.

How believable is it a guy comes off a four year ban and runs faster than he ever has before at age 30? Especially a guy who had been taking testosterone. Generally those goes are never even very good again, let alone as good as they were before. Gatlin's performance is just as suspicious as this Chinese girl.

[Mr. Wednesday]

But others have shown it was not so unbelievable compared to other swimmers.

They have?

I still haven't seen a legit explanation for the freestyle split.

Phelps at least has a physiological evidence in his favor, where his body type appears to be uniquely suited to swimming fast.

Gatlin isn't the only track athlete who's highly suspicious. I'd put Jeter in that category as well. She's burst upon the scene at age 30, and she's coached by a guy who is notoriously dirty (and to NBC's credit, they have mentioned the accusations against her).

[Curtis_Lesspanic]

It's hysterical that the press is making accusations about that Chinese swimmer. Did they see who just won the "Woman's" Tennis Gold?

[Snakebauer007]

It's hysterical that the press is making accusations about that Chinese swimmer. Did they see who just won the "Woman's" Tennis Gold?

A woman with 14 career grand slams?

[JimBoSox9]

Fun, let's use this thread to determine which athletes are dirty based primarily on personal biases and 10-cent observational 'data'.

[reggiecleveland]

They have?

I thought this was posted here but it from another board

Ye Shiwen's last 50m split in the 400IM was 28.93. But Rebecca Adlington (UK) swam a last 50 split of 28.91 when she won gold in the 800m free in the 2011 World Championships. The 800m is much longer and more exhausting than the 400m, and yet she pulled it off. Where's the Guardian article on how "unbelievable" that was? Where were these rightfully suspicious comments then?
Let's also compare Ye's performance increase with Stephanie Rice's (Australia). Rice was gold medalist in the 400IM at the 2008 Olympics.
Ye's 400 IM time in the 2010 Asian Games: 4:33.79. Her time in the 2012 Olympics: 4:28.43. IMPROVEMENT: FIVE SECONDS OVER TWO YEARS.
Rice's 400 IM time in the 2007 World Championships: 4:41.19. Her gold medal time in the 2008 Olympics: 4:29.45. IMPROVEMENT: TWELVE SECONDS OVER ONE YEAR.
Where's the Guardian article raising entirely justified speculations about Rice? I'm letting the facts speak for themselves.
I'll repeat: there's nothing wrong with being suspicious. But there is something wrong with targeting.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Thanks. If it had been posted here, I missed it.

I'm more concerned by the last split than by the improvement she realized in her time. It looks like it's not quite as unprecedented as might have been though.

[Fred not Lynn]

Sorry that is not quite right. It was the American system that covered up Carl Lewis' positive tests, etc. Also they are different systems, there is no way in free enterprise word everyone would be under one system. Charlie Francis had a track club with Ben Johnson and other using drugs that allowed them to rise to the top, it was a system. The American weight lifters pioneered juice and the national training center was a big needle party, that was a system. Balco was a system, but just like any difference between commies and the west the USA let free enterprise take care of the cheating. Just like everything else it worked better and was more efficient. The USA, for a long time, testing their own athletes just like the USSR and did not report the findings. They tested to see who was okay to go.

I don't know if you're talking specifically about track and field, but I can assure you that there was never a USOC wide doping program. US Athletes in that era were tested, both scheduled at events and unannounced, on a regular basis. A LOT of energy was given to education of athletes against doping, and about their responsibility to govern what substances went into their bodies. Did USATF do something else? I don't know...but seriously, the USSR and GDR doping programs were FAR more comprehnsive than anything going on the the US during that era.

There are mixed stories about the involuntary use of juice. A few of the GDR swimmers say that athletes that refused the shots were not kicked out of the program. but kept training and were left behind.

I've heard different things, from different people. Certainly there were threats. Some doping was involuntary because the athlete didn't evcen know about it.

[zeraza]

I thought this was posted here but it from another board

Also, somehow a 16 year old breaking world records is unbelievable, but a 17 year old (Missy Franklin) setting world records in other events, isn't suspicious?

It's ridiculous hypocrisy

(And people still accuse Bolt and the Jamaicans of doping, but barely a whisper is mentioned about Gatlin winning bronze despite having actually been caught and banned - sheer stupidity)

[johnmd20]

Also, somehow a 16 year old breaking world records is unbelievable, but a 17 year old (Missy Franklin) setting world records in other events, isn't suspicious?

It's ridiculous hypocrisy

(And people still accuse Bolt and the Jamaicans of doping, but barely a whisper is mentioned about Gatlin winning bronze despite having actually been caught and banned - sheer stupidity)

Barely a whisper. What are you reading? Gatlin's suspicious are all over the place, and rightfully so. And let's be clear. Most of the athletes are doing or taking something. And passing drug tests means absolutely nothing. There is too much money, too much popularity, and too much of everything for these top of the line athletes to not try to get an edge.

I personally have no problem with it. I want to see Superman flying and running out there.

[reggiecleveland]

I don't know if you're talking specifically about track and field, but I can assure you that there was never a USOC wide doping program. US Athletes in that era were tested, both scheduled at events and unannounced, on a regular basis.

Not in the 80s. It was at the US trials where Lewis failed a test. USOC runs the trials, and decided to do nothing. Nothing was state wide as I said it was free market country, they let the market produce the cheaters and looked the other way. Canada did the same thing with Ben. The USA was slow by western standards post 1988 getting into testing their own people. I have head Dick Pound speak a number of times and he said the implementation of comprehensive drug testing was delayed a decade by the USA. I know Americans like to point the finger but their history is pretty shady. I am not sure how much worse it could have been in a free country that the USA in the 80s. If your statement is the USA was not as totally bad as east Germany that is like saying "Better player than Caesar Crespo."

I'll be clear Canada only stepped up ahead of the USA in testing because of Ben. Ben Johnson crossed out the part about Drugs on his Olympic oath before he signed it. Everyone knew, but we wanted to beat Carl Lewis. It was a national embarrassment.

Now the USA is stepping it up and catching their own people. But how often do you test and who? In a sport like track your team is made only a month or so before the games. An athlete could show up at the trials and make the team out of nowhere.That scares the USA and Canada because a failed test hurts more than any win.

China is testing too, and seem to have come to the conclusion that a failed drug test does more harm than a gold medal helps. A few coaches and athletes stung by drug testing have ended up in Kazakhstan, look how well their women did in lifting this Olympics. But again China is now a free market and a decade or so behind. I think it is possible a few BALCOs could be running in China.

Baseball connection. Pound said the test MLB were going to introduce were so outdated they would mostly catch guys with bad supplements or cheap beach muscle drugs. Maybe Ortiz is telling the truth about bad protein powder from the DR.

[Fred not Lynn]

Not in the 80s. It was at the US trials where Lewis failed a test. USOC runs the trials, and decided to do nothing.

The Olympic Trials in each sport are not run by USOC, they're run by that particular sport's national governing body.

Nothing was state wide as I said it was free market country, they let the market produce the cheaters and looked the other way. Canada did the same thing with Ben. The USA was slow by western standards post 1988 getting into testing their own people.

The US was doing short notice and unannounced off-season testing on their athletes as early as Autumn of 1988. Track and field is/was messier than other sports, but the USOC didn't stand by idly and watch. I think that might be the disconnect on our conversation here - you're primarily thinking track & field, I'm drawing from my own experience in another sport, and from my experiences with USOC wide programs and policy.

Another thing that kept US athletes a little more honest is the fact that, frankly, no one was a "team". For the majority of the year, other athletes in your sport weren't your team mates, they were your rivals - your competitors for start positions in international competition. Everyone lived and trained in close quarters. If anyone was going to do anything suspect, they'd have to be extremely discrete about it...and you BET there were rumours about certain guys.

I know Americans like to point the finger but their history is pretty shady. I am not sure how much worse it could have been in a free country that the USA in the 80s. If your statement is the USA was not as totally bad as east Germany that is like saying "Better player than Caesar Crespo."

East Germany raised cheating at sports to an absolute artform. They had a hospital, adjacent to the Dynamo sports complex in East Berlin that was the absolute belly of the beast. I visited the place, in 1991 - and just walking in the building, there was just a sesne of unmitigated sport evil. Remember, this was a country that would impregnate female athletes at a certain point prior to their major competitions to gain hormonal edge, and abort the pregnancy afterwards. These people were absoltely ruthless, and evil. (and by that, I mean the administrators, the leaders - not the atheltes. They were generally pretty decent people with the misfortune to be born in a shitty place).

Interesting note - don't know if this happened in all sports, but something I noticed was this; at a World Cup or World Championship site, during the time when all the teams are staying at the host hotel you could go to breakfast and see, basically a whole bunch of unkempt 20-somethings from all over the globe, male and female, who just rolled out of bed and threw on sweats, maybe put a comb through their hair - except the East German women; they NEVER appeared in public without being well dressed, hair fully done, and the same make-up on that a woman going to her 9-5 office job would have. In my opinion, a definite attempt to accentuate their femininity.

[reggiecleveland]

We are talking past each other I never said the USA was system wide like the DDR, they had a loose governing body. But the in the borders of the USA there was a ton of cheats and lots of them were made heroes when officials let it happen. The narrative that the cleans USA gets to point the finger at China and he Soviet Block is hypocritical. The vilification of Ben Johnson while Flo-Jo was waving the flag took balls the size Jupiter forget Saturn. I am primarily talking about Carl Lewis, who had failed a test earlier that summer, the US media, US track, and yes the USOC. The USOC had no desire to upset the apple cart and find out what was going on in track, and didn't pressure track too much when they resisted the implementation of testing well into the 90s.

Do you not think Flo Jo's nails, makeup, etc were not an attempt to cover up she was looking like a man?
And what happened to the athletes is the least of the horrors of East Germany. A friend of mine who played for the National Basketball team described crossing from east to west germany like moving from a black and white movies to a color movie and noted, "Even the cows looked happier."

A lost of my students are from the former East Germany and Soviet Union. Once I was joking with some of the Dad;s I envied their hardship stories since growing up in the booming 70s in western Canada was not a good way to shame children. The Russians aid his dad called him a pussy because he had survived Stalin and his son had only lived through Gorbachev. When they guys from East Germany spoke the Russians conceded the German lived with Stalin up until the wall came down.

So to sum up. Flo-jo was a cheating whore am I am sorry she is dead because now we can't waterboard her into admitting it.

[collings94]

The Gold Medal winner in the womens shot put from Belarus has been stripped of her medal for two positive drug tests.

http://sports.yahoo....49755--oly.html

WARNING: She looks exactly what you think of when you think "Belarusian Shot Putter".

[Nick Kaufman]

Lots of good points made in this thread.

In many events, I think I always felt bad for the guys finishing second or worse, because I felt that the guy in first probably was doping. Then I would think that most of the guys in the final were doping as well. And then I would ponder the idea that even if all of the athletes were doping, some were doping more than the others... and how do we know who's really the best?

The sad part is that when an athlete is caught doping, you don't get the sense that his apprehension represents an acceptable detection rate that acts as an effective deterrent for other athletes while maintaining the credibility of the game. No, what you re thinking is that the guy who got caught was the unfortunate schmuck who got caught...

There are a ton of Greek athletes who got caught in recent years. I ve ended up joking half-seriously that someone needs to improve their masking agents stat.... That's a sad statement about the state of the games.

Edited by Nick Kaufman, 13 August 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[Fred not Lynn]

Here's an interesting perspective on the issue, from a former professional cyclist, and admitted participant in doping.

http://www.nytimes.c...ports.html?_r=1

And think about the talented athletes who did make the right choice and walked away. They were punished for following their moral compass and being left behind. How do they reconcile the loss of their dream? It was stolen from them.

Almost every athlete I’ve met who has doped will say they did it only because they wanted a level playing field. That says something: everyone wants a fair chance, not more.