69 replies to this topic

[SoxScout]

GordonEdes: Trainers, not CC, told Bobby that Crawford wasn't playing after 1st 4 games, and Bobby played him anyway. CC just told reporters he's fine

GordonEdes: Crawford not playing due to a "4-day" program, according to Valentine, who clearly is not on board with the idea. Played Crawfod 6 straight.

GordonEdes: Crawford said he was "fine," said he was just told about the 4-day program this morning. "I'm trying to figure it out, too.''

Sean_McAdam: Cherington has said Sox don't believe TJ surgery is inevitable; Crawford today said Dr. told him it is. More bizarre all the time....

Meanwhile, Crawford reiterated that renowned orthopedic surgeon Dr. James Andrews has told him he eventually will need Tommy John elbow surgery, and the left fielder strongly suggested that he undergo the procedure sooner rather than later to avoid missing a significant portion of next season.

“That would be the smart thing to do,” Crawford said. “The later I wait to get it done, the more time I’ll miss.”

It’s worth noting that Crawford said he feels “fine” and wasn’t informed of the four-day program until this morning. Upon being reinstated from the disabled list recently, Crawford played in six consecutive games, a “manager no-no,” according to Valentine, who said he was aware of the four-day program but exercised his power to “veto” it.

Seriously, WTF is the chain of command in this organization? Do they even know? Where is the owner? How many more times can they look so clueless on issues? Is Larry drafting another letter?

Edited by SoxScout, 28 July 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[Corsi]

Crawford didn't even know of the 4-day program? How fucked is that? I can't stand this team, top to bottom.

[Dick Pole Upside]

This is colossally stupid. If in fact Andrews said TJ is inevitable, then having CC play at less than 100% and denying the inevitability of the surgery only further de-values the asset. The elbow will not, as has already been proven, get better with rest.

Lucky/Ben don't get anything right.

Bumbling idiots.

[rembrat]

All this just makes Theo look smarter and smarter.

EDIT: I mean this shit didn't happen under his watch.

Edited by rembrat, 28 July 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[YTF]

<sub>Just posted this in the Crawford thread, but probably deserves to be here

OK so the big question now is...........How much interest is there going to be for an outfielder who averages slightly over 20 million per year for another 5 years, may or may not need Tommy John surgery, but has put off the surgery that he may or may not need for a team that wants him to play now, but is hesitant to play him like they need him to play now? Honest to god.....who is running this abortion of a baseball team?</sub>

[radsoxfan]

There are a lot of questions to ask.

But the first one that comes to mind is.... whose idea is this 4 day plan anyway? The ESPN article seems to imply its the physical therapist's idea (Mike Reinold). There has to be more to it than that. Maybe the Sox could use a team physician after all....

[someoneanywhere]

This is colossally stupid. If in fact Andrews said TJ is inevitable, then having CC play at less than 100% and denying the inevitability of the surgery only further de-values the asset. The elbow will not, as has already been proven, get better with rest.

Lucky/Ben don't get anything right.

Bumbling idiots.

Now, James Andrews might think TJS is "inevitable." And Carl might take that to mean, or might want it to mean, "immediate." But I don't think James Andrews told Carl Crawford that TJS was immediately inevitable. Otherwise it would have been done already. So he can play with it.

As for the other stuff -- 4-day plans, miscommunications, general bumbling around -- I'm with you. This is an organization in a dizzying spiral of suck.

[E5 Yaz]

"Actually, I did a manager 'no-no' thing, you know," Valentine said. "I went against what I was told to do. Never to be done again."
Could one assume, then, that Valentine was not wild about the idea? The manager responded to that question in an odd fashion.
"Yeah, I'm wild," he said, then added, "I'm not wild," punctuating with a few sound effects evidently intended to convey his impression of "wild."

http://espn.go.com/b...ed-sox-saturday

[AB in DC]

Yeesh, is BV trying to get himself fired or what? He's starting to sound like someone who can't wait to get out of town.

[someoneanywhere]

Yeesh, is BV trying to get himself fired or what? He's starting to sound like someone who can't wait to get out of town.

That quote is so clearly a man throwing himself on a grenade that you have to wonder what in the wide, wide world of sports is going on over there. Had he been dressed down for going against the plan, it would have been after the 5th day, not after the 6th.

[radsoxfan]

I'd also love to know the medical reason that the off day thursday didn't count as a day off in this 4 day plan. Was Crawford's elbow aware that the team wasn't playing thursday, and therefore somehow unable to recover appropriately? Or does he now need 2 days off every 4 days?

We are straying further and further away from evidence based medicine into a world of complete nonsense.

Edited by radsoxfan, 28 July 2012 - 04:08 PM.

[E5 Yaz]

Some people are going to owe Buster Olney an apology when this is all said and done

[YTF]

Yeesh, is BV trying to get himself fired or what? He's starting to sound like someone who can't wait to get out of town.

Seriously, at this stage of the game it might not be the worst idea in the world. He's still gonna get paid.

[LogansDad]

Honestly, at this point, if I was Bobby, I wouldn't want to be there either. I'm not his biggest fan, but I honestly think he has done a pretty good job managing through some major injuries, and serious under performances this year. But regardless, if the organization I worked for had the communication problems that this one does from top to bottom (and especially if rumors are true that players are going straight the Cherington/Lucky with issues), then I wouldn't want to touch that shit with a ten foot pole. And that would be before I have to deal with the cannibalistic Boston media.

Edited by LogansDad, 28 July 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[Dick Pole Upside]

The fact that the trainer... the [REALLY NAUGHTY WORD] TRAINER... may be calling the shots on anything is beyond embarrassing.

Edited by Dick Pole Upside, 28 July 2012 - 09:32 PM.

[Rough Carrigan]

Yeesh, is BV trying to get himself fired or what? He's starting to sound like someone who can't wait to get out of town.

And then abrasive old man Larry Lucchino will just have to hire another abrasive old man to be manager.

[ToeKneeArmAss]

Jack McKeon is still alive. I just googled it so it must be true.

[SoxScout]

For approximately 30 minutes, former Bosox skipper Terry Francona, now an ESPN analyst, sat and chatted congenially with a number of former players while current manager Bobby Valentine worked in his office across the hall.

Before long, he was sitting in a chair, and several players pulled chairs up in a circle around him. Several Sox who played for Francona — including Dustin Pedroia, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, David Ortiz, Clay Buchholz and Kelly Shoppach — spent some time with him along with some who didn’t play for him. There was smiling, laughing, and photos from smartphones being passed around. Valentine was never in the room while it went on.

One Boston player who observed but did not take part seemed surprised that Francona was so friendly, since these players were the same ones who failed to perform as the Sox missed the playoffs on the final day last year. “And to do it with the new manager in the next room?” the observer said. “You just don’t do that, at least not here. It’s about knowing right from wrong.”

http://www.nydailyne...ksEnabled=false

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Classy move by Tito.

I know this will rile people here but if that, indeed happened, Francona was acting like a douche. Great - some of Tito's guys miss him. And given the fortunes of the Red Sox this season, many fans do too. But that doesn't change the epic collapse that he oversaw last year.

Furthermore, he of all people understands how much the media focuses on minutiae. That makes this sort of thing even more stupid.

Go ahead and flame me for saying this but screw Tito (and Theo while I am at it). I appreciate what the Sox accomplished while they were here but they both did a crappy job at the end of their terms (hell, Theo did a crappy job for a lot of his time as GM) in Boston and deserve to be called out for it.

[Soxfan in Fla]

Seriously, WTF is the chain of command in this organization? Do they even know? Where is the owner? How many more times can they look so clueless on issues? Is Larry drafting another letter?

The owner (Henry) is too busy with his soccer team to know what the hell is going on. This is a giant clusterfuck. Get Larry the hell out of baseball ops and do it yesterday please? As far as Ben, it's hard to know if he sucks at his job or appears to because Larry has forced him to be a puppet GM. How much of his seeming ineptitude in trades so far is on him and how much of it is on Larry? Do we even know? As for the medical staff, can we get a real one please?

[YTF]

http://www.nydailyne...ksEnabled=false

Seems a bit odd and honestly like something that Tito might try to avoid THIS soon after his depature. Have to wonder how much of this (if any) is related to his job with ESPN. I recall during last weeks broadcast he spoke about sitting with Mike Trout for a while and how great Trout was about coming back later when Tito realised there were other things that he had forgotten to discuss with him. It IS Yanks vs Sox tonight and the biggest story of "the biggest rivalry in all of sport" is that the Sox suck. Wonder if this is just as simple as Terry needing a little time to talk to a few guys and it turns into a mini reunion. And if that's the case, how do you really prevent that?

[Toe Nash]

Classy move by Tito.

I know this will rile people here but if that, indeed happened, Francona was acting like a douche. Great - some of Tito's guys miss him. And given the fortunes of the Red Sox this season, many fans do too. But that doesn't change the epic collapse that he oversaw last year.

Furthermore, he of all people understands how much the media focuses on minutiae. That makes this sort of thing even more stupid.

Go ahead and flame me for saying this but screw Tito (and Theo while I am at it). I appreciate what the Sox accomplished while they were here but they both did a crappy job at the end of their terms (hell, Theo did a crappy job for a lot of his time as GM) in Boston and deserve to be called out for it.

I kind of agree with this, actually. If he wanted to hang out with his boys he could have easily just gone out to dinner on an off day (or heck, lunch on a game day). It's possible it wasn't a pre-meditated thing, but he had to know that it would get written up as a story and show up Bobby V. Maybe he doesn't care.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I kind of agree with this, actually. If he wanted to hang out with his boys he could have easily just gone out to dinner on an off day (or heck, lunch on a game day). It's possible it wasn't a pre-meditated thing, but he had to know that it would get written up as a story and show up Bobby V. Maybe he doesn't care.

Why the hell should he care?

Media guys spend time visiting players in the clubhouse. Tito's a media guy now. So it's actually, you know, a story about him doing his job.

This is exactly like the Clay-at-Foxwoods story. If the Boston sports media wants to go all attack-dog on the club again, that's not on Tito.

[Nuf Ced]

Crawford watched it all from the dugout, despite his strong career numbers against C. C. Sabathia (22 for 69, or .319) and those cozy dimensions in right. Valentine mentioned both factors before the game.

“That’s a tough decision,” he said. “That’s why I get paid the big bucks.”

What Valentine meant was that sitting Crawford was a decision made above him. He recently started Crawford six games in a row, but heard about it from his bosses.

“I did a manager no-no thing,” Valentine said. “I went against what I was told to do. Never to be done again.”

A reporter told Valentine he did not seem wild about the idea.

“Yeah, I’m wild,” Valentine said. He chirped a bit — he’s wild, see? — and continued: “I’d like to have Carl every day. I’d like to have all my good players every day. But I understand the situation better now than I did then.”

Valentine said Crawford was not supposed to play more than four days in a row. With opposing right-handers lined up for the next four days, Valentine said, Saturday was Crawford’s time to rest.

This is what happens when a manager has little job security and a team fools itself into thinking it might make a playoff push. The Red Sox need to give themselves the best chance to win — every day — if they hope to make a serious run down the stretch. Valentine knows that, and probably senses his job may depend on it. Yet Crawford was benched.

General Manager Ben Cherington did not sign Crawford; his predecessor, Theo Epstein, pushed for that $142 million investment. But he needs to let Valentine use Crawford the way he wants, or let Crawford get reconstructive surgery.

http://www.nytimes.c...html?ref=sports

This is Tyler Kepner's polite way of saying the Red Sox front office needs to poop or get off the pot in regards to the Crawford situation.

Edited by Nuf Ced, 29 July 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Toe Nash]

Why the hell should he care?

Media guys spend time visiting players in the clubhouse. Tito's a media guy now. So it's actually, you know, a story about him doing his job.

This is exactly like the Clay-at-Foxwoods story. If the Boston sports media wants to go all attack-dog on the club again, that's not on Tito.

I dunno, presumably he cares about the working conditions for his friends Pedey and Clay. He doesn't have to. Whatever.

[rembrat]

Classy move by Tito.

I know this will rile people here but if that, indeed happened, Francona was acting like a douche. Great - some of Tito's guys miss him. And given the fortunes of the Red Sox this season, many fans do too. But that doesn't change the epic collapse that he oversaw last year.

I don't understand this. How long should Tito wait before catching up with his former players?

Edited by rembrat, 29 July 2012 - 09:00 AM.

[Sprowl]

I don't understand this. How long should Tito wait before catching up with his former players?

Yeah, I thought he had done pretty well to stay away from the Red Sox drama and to avoid making critical comments about his successor. That doesn't mean he needed to exile himself from the clubhouse for the entire season.

[Rudy Pemberton]

He can catch up with players, but does it need to be done in the clubhouse? I get that it's "part of his job" but it's another avoidable distraction. I don't blame Tito, I blame Cherington and team for letting it happen; they should have a more structured way for dealing with the unique situation. It's all part of the sideshow; and just leads to more shit and surely Tito's visit will lead to more vague stories about a team in disarray. Whoever is in charge shouldn't have let it happen, but who is in charge again? I get that this stuff happens, not a big deal, etc etc, but it's just more bullshit that has nothing to do with what should be the goal here, winning some fuckin baseball games.

[The Long Tater]

http://espn.go.com/b...ed-sox-saturday

Read the whole article. The quoted bits are just the tip of the crazy iceberg.

[Rudy Pemberton]

If the organization is going to force Crawford to sit this frequently, how about getting the manager an OF that can actually hit lefties (not that Carl can, but..)so that he's not forced to use Nava in that spot? Ciriaco has played great, but that he's the teams best option at DH is kind of nuts.

[The Long Tater]

The fact that the trainer... the [REALLY NAUGHTY WORD] TRAINER... may be calling the shots on anything is beyond embarrassing.

Maybe someday he will be a co-owner of the team. It could happen.

[BosRedSox5]

Yeah, this team is pretty screwed. The manager doesn't know what's going on, medical staff isn't communicating with the GM, the players are pining for their old manager...

It's true, winning would make most of this moot, but by losing, we're really seeing the underbelly of the team. Problems are coming to light. The leadership is apparently awful. How can they even fix this broken mess of a team?

[YTF]

Yeah, this team is pretty screwed. The manager doesn't know what's going on, medical staff isn't communicating with the GM, the players are pining for their old manager...

It's true, winning would make most of this moot, but by losing, we're really seeing the underbelly of the team. Problems are coming to light. The leadership is apparently awful. How can they even fix this broken mess of a team?

A simple question with what would seem like simple answer for an organisation with the means to do so.......Hire the best baseball people possible AND LET THEM DO WHAT THE FUCK THEY ARE PAID TO DO!!!!!! Yeah it's gonna take a little time especially given the giant steps that they've taken BACKWARD after last years debaucle. I look at this organisation and can't help but hear these words from Heath Ledger as The Joker ringing in my head.........."Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know..... I just DO things." Now that I give it some thought, I can almost hear those words in Luchino's voice. Perhaps this should be the motto of the 2012 Red Sox. Would look great on a tee-shirt with the Sox logo and at $30 a pop might help feed the monster.

Edited by YTF, 29 July 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[BoSoxLady]

Tito's job is to provide analysis of the teams involved in the Sunday night game. In order to perform his job properly, he needs to be in the clubhouse.

Upon entering the clubhouse prior to yesterday's game, Dustin Pedroia invited Tito to "take a seat".

Francona, an analyst for ESPN's "Sunday Night Baseball," privately vowed in spring training that he would avoid the Sox clubhouse because it is no longer his domain. He has made cameo appearances on previous assignments, but nothing like what happened here Saturday, when Pedroia invited him to take a seat, and one by one, other players joined them.

"It looks like he's holding chapel," said a major league employee who has been in clubhouses for 35 years and said he has never witnessed such a scene involving an ex-manager.

Now the media is quoting un-named clubbies? There's no precedence for this situation with Tito. ESPN hired a recently fired manager of a team that's frequently on their network and virtually every Sunday his prior team plays the MFY. Tito's been in the Sox clubhouse a few times this season without fanfare.

What makes yesterday's situation unique is that Tito was invited to sit by his boy Dustin Pedroia. Tito and Pedroia should have realized how the visit might appear to the media and particularly, BV. We're not dealing with rocket scientists.

There's no question some members of the Red Sox have a great amount of affection for Tito but they should also remember that they got their binky fired.

Edited by BoSoxLady, 29 July 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[Harry Hooper]

http://www.nydailyne...ksEnabled=false

First of all, Shoppach was not a member o f the 2011 Red Sox. Edes' article mentions that the group w/Francona included Shoppach, Punto, and Ross -- so almost half the group were not on the 2011 team. Secondly, Pedroia had a pretty good September in 2011, Buchholz was on IR, and Salty was Salty then.

So, the statement that these are the guys who got Francona fired doesn't have much basis. Interestingly enough, the whole section of the article referring to Francona's visit has been pulled from the Daily News online version.

[Sprowl]

First of all, Shoppach was not a member o f the 2011 Red Sox. Edes' article mentions that the group w/Francona included Shoppach, Punto, and Ross -- so almost half the group were not on the 2011 team. Secondly, Pedroia had a pretty good September in 2011, Buchholz was on IR, and Salty was Salty then.

It's interesting to me that Ross, Punto and Shoppach probably belong on the list of "character" guys brought in to change the tone in the clubhouse.

What makes yesterday's situation unique is that Tito was invited to sit by his boy Dustin Pedroia. Tito and Pedroia should have realized how the visit might appear to the media and particularly, BV. We're not dealing with rocket scientists.

Inviting a visitor to sit instead of giving him the cold shoulder sounds to me like a basic courtesy, not a diplomatic incident. Just because the parents got divorced, that doesn't mean that the kids shouldn't get along with both parents. An odd comparison, perhaps, but this story sounds like broken-home jealousy.

The most significant part of the story seems to be the acknowledgement that Valentine is at odds with two holdovers since 2006, Gary Tuck and Mike Reinold, who has been promoted through the ranks (despite the club's injury-riddled 2010 and a poorly conditioned 2011).

[Rudy Pemberton]

Is it a surprise that Valentine may be at odds with Tuck, though? The Yankees wanted to hire him away, and the Sox refused to let him go, yet as far as I can tell they didn't promote him. Could see how that could piss a guy off.

[Sprowl]

Is it a surprise that Valentine may be at odds with Tuck, though? The Yankees wanted to hire him away, and the Sox refused to let him go, yet as far as I can tell they didn't promote him. Could see how that could piss a guy off.

It's not at all a surprise that there are differences between the new guy and the holdovers. It is a surprise that it is now public knowledge. Not only did the Red Sox screw up 2011 with bad leadership, they screwed up the offseason leadership replacement, and will probably screw it up again in the coming offseason.

[BoSoxLady]

Update: According to Rob Bradford on WEEI, Tito entered the clubhouse yesterday and sat down to speak with Cody Ross. Pedroia and others came over to shake hands and say hello.

FWIW, Bradford blames Tito for the incident, knowing the media was in the clubhouse and much would be made of the visit.

All parties involved need to GTFU.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

So Tito was doing his job by interviewing Ross (a player who's never played for him), therefore he's to blame? That's profundly silly. Bradford's nuts.

[Nuf Ced]

What makes yesterday's situation unique is that Tito was invited to sit by his boy Dustin Pedroia. Tito and Pedroia should have realized how the visit might appear to the media and particularly, BV. We're not dealing with rocket scientists.

On the other hand, Francona and Pedroia probably knew how it would be perceived, and just didn't give a damn.

[E5 Yaz]

Now the media is quoting un-named clubbies?

And it wasn't even Bob Hohler!

[JimBoSox9]

So Tito was doing his job by interviewing Ross (a player who's never played for him), therefore he's to blame? That's profundly silly. Bradford's nuts.

"Just a media guy doing his job" is a pretty flimsy shield to hide behind, no? You can't tell me with a straight face that not spending time in the clubhouse would be crippling to Tito's crucial job performance as a TV analyst. The article makes references to previous cameos, so he knows how to pop in and out without making a stir. I don't see any way you can think Tito didn't know how the media was going to react without calling him stupid, which he clearly isn't. Pedey too, although the evidence in support of Dusty's higher mental processes is more scare.

Not that I have any problem with that, to be sure. If you're an embarassment, you deserve to be embarrassed. If Valentine was smart, he'd have gone into the clubhouse and pal'd around with Tito for a few, to send the message that he's in control and didn't feel threatened.

[barbed wire Bob]

If Valentine was smart, he'd have gone into the clubhouse and pal'd around with Tito for a few, to send the message that he's in control and didn't feel threatened.

If BV did that then the press and this board would make comments about Bobby's insecurity and trying to steal the show. IMO, Bobby was caught between a rock and a hard spot.
Regarding Tito and the players actions,Tito was just doing his job and the players were just being polite. IMO, it's a tempest in a teacup that was blown all out of proportion by the media.

[BoSoxLady]

I think Bradford's point is that once a number of players came over and surrounded Tito, he should have excused himself and gone elsewhere. Both Tito and Pedroia know full well the ever-present media was nearby.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

I think Bradford's point is that once a number of players came over and surrounded Tito, he should have excused himself and gone elsewhere. Both Tito and Pedroia know full well the ever-present media was nearby.

I think this is both right and silly at the same time. At some point, these guys must acknowledge what they know they "should" do and just decide, "fuck it - I can sit here and chat with the guys for 30 minutes and no one's going to die in a fire or anything."

For me, this is just like the Clay at the Casino incident. Yes, you can make the argument that he should have known the media would make a big deal out of it, but at some point you just have to do what you want and let the consequences be what they are.

I'm sure Valentine sat down for a chat in more than one clubhouse when he was in Tito's TV chair (actually, I'm not totally sure about that, since he's kind of an unlikeable dink), but, because it was an entirely different situation, no one cared.

If everyone in the Red Sox clubhouse (including the media) collectively put on their big-boy pants and didn't let every little thing become an offensive slight, the team could get back to focusing on baseball. We know the media have no interest in changing pants, so it's up to the Sox to rally. If Pedey's the leader we all think he is, he can walk into Bobby's office and say, "hey skip, sorry about all that shit yesterday. You know, we were just having a good time with Tito. No offense meant." Bobby says, "let's go get 'em tonight," and everything goes away.

The stuff about Crawford's sudden "four-day schedule" is much more disturbing to me. I do believe that communication is important in any organization, and it seems pretty clear there's a breakdown on Yawkey Way.

Edited by MyDaughterLovesTomGordon, 29 July 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[Harry Hooper]

Given the rain delay situation, it was probably an unusual opportunity for the chat session to last longer than usual.

[Al Zarilla]

Is there a cold war going on or something? Sounds like some guys wanted to say hello to their old manager. Period. If some reporter(s) want to make a federal case out of it, maybe Boston reporters are troublemakers and players and managers (John Farrell down the road?) should eschew the Red Sox.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

What is the "Clay at the casino" incident everyone is referring to?

[TheoShmeo]

Is there a cold war going on or something? Sounds like some guys wanted to say hello to their old manager. Period. If some reporter(s) want to make a federal case out of it, maybe Boston reporters are troublemakers and players and managers (John Farrell down the road?) should eschew the Red Sox.

I dunno. It's not exactly binary.

Tito had to know that sitting down and shooting the breeze in the Sox clubhouse for half an hour was going to become a story and would likely make Bobby look bad on some level. Is it a huge thing? No. But it's not just another ESPN reporter doing his job, regardless of whether he was invited to stay by his cribbage buddy.