73 replies to this topic

[SoxScout]

"You think I'm happy right now?" Lester said. "You think I like coming to the park with almost a 5 ERA (4.80) next to my name, with a 5-7 record? I mean, who would be happy?

"You think last night me coming off the field getting booed was fun? C'mon, who would want to do that? It's much cooler for me to walk off the field to a standing ovation after pitching my ass off. I don't want that. Do they have the right to boo? Absolutely. But I don't want that.

"It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing for my wife to be sitting in the stands to hear that. I'm embarrassed for her. I'm embarrassed what she has to hear in the stands. It's not fun.

"That's not what I want to do. I don't want to show up at the park and go, '[Expletive], I'm going to give up seven runs in four innings and call it a day, then go home and count my money because that's all that matters."'

Lester stressed, however, that there is a difference in being unhappy with his performance and being unhappy about playing here. There have been a number of reports that Lester might be so unhappy he'd welcome a trade.

"Am I happy in Boston?" Lester said. "Yeah, I've got a house here, my family loves it here, I love taking my kid [son Hudson] here. That's two different things. If I'm sitting right now with David Price numbers and said I was not happy, then yeah, maybe it's about Boston. But who in this clubhouse is happy with losing?"

"The Red Sox believe what's written," he said. "If it's written that I should be traded, more times than not that's what ends up happening. Look at the people who've gotten traded around here. It's not their doing.

"It's not up to me. One thing I know in baseball is you should never be comfortable where you are. It doesn't matter who you are. It's a business. If I got traded tomorrow, no hard feelings, it's a business.

"Would I be sad? Yeah. Like I said, we've got a house here, we made a lot of good friends here, we just started a foundation here. It'd be tough. It'd be tough on my family, but it is what it is. It's like being transferred in a business - -you've got to go where they tell you."
With Youkilis flourishing since his trade to the Chicago White Sox on June 24, Lester gave a multilayered answer when asked if he thought he might profit from a change of scenery.

"That's one of those questions you don't know until it happens or doesn't happen," he said. "I think if you asked Youk that he'd say the same thing. Hey, I love it here, but I don't know if a change of scenery is good. I haven't had a change of scenery. I think when you leave Boston, unless you go to a New York or Chicago, it can't do anything but help you.


"This is a tough place to play, you know? I love playing here because it makes people accountable. It makes you accountable for what you do. There's no excuses here. If you pitch like [expletive], you can't come in and say, 'Aw, the mound's a little wet' because you've got Dave (Mellor, the groundskeeper) down there saying, 'No, it wasn't.' This place makes you accountable. I love that about this place because I'm an accountable person. I always have been. My dad has ingrained that in me: Be accountable.

"I love that part about this place, but I think if you go from here to, I don't know, Texas, it would probably be easier to play. You don't have to worry about other things. You just go out and play."

But last week during the All-Star break, he used his Twitter account to respond to some of the harsher criticisms he has heard.

"It always comes back to money," he said. "Do you honestly think everybody in this room is really happy with where we're at? That's what I don't get, that's what I don't understand. It always goes back to what guys are making. 'These million-dollar babies are whining, they don't care.'

"Yeah, we get paid a lot of money. I understand that. But just because we get paid a lot of money doesn't mean we don't care. This kills me. It's tough. I hate losing. I hate getting beat. I'm not used to it. It's something I've never done in my life. Maybe this is a year that's going to strengthen me and make me a better pitcher in the future.

You can read a lot more from Edes here: http://espn.go.com/b...ident-struggles

[joe dokes]

Great piece. Maybe he (and maybe Crawford, too) need to open up *more* to get throught their struggles. Who knows, these guys operate at a different level than us.

He is sort of swatting at some strawmen. No one with a brain thinks he "doesn't care," or is "happy" with his reults. He's just been sucking.


This is just sort of non-sensical:

"The Red Sox believe what's written," he said. "If it's written that I should be traded, more times than not that's what ends up happening. Look at the people who've gotten traded around here. It's not their doing.

And if Beckett had said this it would be torches and pitchforks:

My dad's my dad, my mom's my mom, my wife's my wife. That's more important than baseball.

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

The guy's in a pitching slump, it happens to every pitcher at some point. I think he'll come around and be fine.... I'd be more worried if he said: "I had great stuff in the bullpen, felt great, they hit some good pitches"

I would expect he'd be frustrated, he's better than how he's been pitching.... This whole he cares or doesn't seems to be such a Boston thing and media driven. I don't doubt that all these guys care, and I'm never personally insulted if they show body language or do things that make it seem otherwise.

Edited by Carl Everetts Therapist, 19 July 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[BroodsSexton]

Am I the only one who thinks this is great? It's like when the dude walks into the two Bobs in Office Space to justify his job. He should just let it all out. Really, they all should. Makes for more interesting copy.

[JimBoSox9]

Am I the only one who thinks this is great? It's like when the dude walks into the two Bobs in Office Space to justify his job. He should just let it all out. Really, they all should. Makes for more interesting copy.

I think it's wonderful. For as often as we wish athletes would speak their minds instead of in cliches, 99% of the time it actually happens we regret it. This is the 1%. He made it clear he gives a very big shit about his shortcomings, didn't say anything notably self-centered (are you listening, Josh?), only took one jab at the front office, stopped short of actually trashing Bobby, generally supported the team and clubhouse, and put the burden of performance on his shoulders. If this was a movie, he'd go on a 25-inning scoreless streak right now.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

I have zero problem with anything he's saying. Of course Boston is a tough place to play - some guys thrive on that because they want the challenge, other guys shrink from it. Lester's never shrunk from anything.

And that's why he's so frustrated - this is a guy who's basically had an unmitigated string of success his whole life. Fuck, he beat cancer! And now he's giving up 7 runs to the fucking White Sox in four innings? And then he see another (younger, less experienced) lefty go out and shut that same lineup down? He feels like crap. He's pissed. At himself. At the world. At everyone. He probably went home and kicked his dog.

Great. Much better, as someone said above, than the classic Lackey response: "eh, I felt good out there. They just hit some tough pitches. I'm alright."

No, Lester knows he's not alright. That he's sucking something awful right now. And he wants desperately to fix it. All good in my book. He'll find it.

[trekfan55]

I like this. With these quotes Lester is showing:

1. He wants to win.
2. He thinks he is pitching like crap, does not blame people for booing him, does not like it (who would?)
3. He again says that he does love it in Boston, and while he recognizes that baseball is a business, he makes no mention, overt or otherwise, of wanting a trade.
4. He does not mention any pains, or that he is hurt somehow (that could still come out later).

Now, we can fairly concentrate on the why he is pitching like crap part. I do hope he turns it around soon.

[The Long Tater]

The man is holding himself accountable. It would be great if more did.

[amh03]

I think part of what makes Boston a challenging town to play in is that the fans want to see evidence that a player cares. Just my thoughts, but it seems as if we rallied around players likeTrot Nixon, even when he was in slump, because you just knew he cared deeply...his behavior, his quotes displayed that. Pedroia falls into this camp. Conversely, we piled on J.D. Drew, partly because he didn't reveal his emotions. The same thing, really with Josh Beckett...these guys go out and "act" like it doesn't matter...like they really don't care one way or another. Of course that most likely isn't reality...but that's how they seem.

I think it's good that Lester has expressed his feelings. Boston's definitely a tough town...the media attention is unrelenting...our appetite for information feeds that pursuit. But, I have to say, as a fan - I would rather root for a team of players who try hard, act like they are invested in the game and the town, express a desire to improve and yet lose then for a team of emotionally detached players who only complain and may limp into the playoffs.

Edited by amh03, 19 July 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[Van Everyman]

Can someone please post a withering counterpoint-by-point dismissal of Lester here? We're 9 posts in, and I'm beginning to lose my faith in SOSH.

[JMDurron]

He is sort of swatting at some strawmen. No one with a brain thinks he "doesn't care," or is "happy" with his reults. He's just been sucking.

Those aren't strawmen if he's not just talking about himself. "But who in this clubhouse is happy with losing?" doesn't seem like a statement just relating to himself, he's throwing out some defense of his teammates while speaking about his own personal frustrations. He may be doing that because he knows some of those teammates can't or won't do so because they get treated differently than Lester does by the press. Beckett comes immediately to mind here. 'These million-dollar babies are whining, they don't care." sounds like he (or someone) read what was being posted here and presumably elsewhere after Crawford's comments to WEEI the other day, and might also relate to things previously written and said about John Lackey.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Can someone please post a withering counterpoint-by-point dismissal of Lester here? We're 9 posts in, and I'm beginning to lose my faith in SOSH.

There really isn't much to dismiss. joedokes already commented on the one line in the whole piece that didn't make sense. He's frustrated and unhappy for all the right reasons, and he's looking in the mirror. I like the way he walks the line about the challenges of playing in Boston--basically saying, yeah, it would be easier somewhere else, but the fact that it isn't easy is also what makes it great.

There's just nothing not to like there. And the timing is good.

[joe dokes]

Those aren't strawmen if he's not just talking about himself. "But who in this clubhouse is happy with losing?" doesn't seem like a statement just relating to himself, he's throwing out some defense of his teammates while speaking about his own personal frustrations. He may be doing that because he knows some of those teammates can't or won't do so because they get treated differently than Lester does by the press. Beckett comes immediately to mind here. 'These million-dollar babies are whining, they don't care." sounds like he (or someone) read what was being posted here and presumably elsewhere after Crawford's comments to WEEI the other day, and might also relate to things previously written and said about John Lackey.

Excellent point I completely missed.

[Ed Hillel]

God, the guy is making millions of dollars doing something he LOVES, and I'm supposed to sit here and think he's a hero for pointing out the obvious? Why can't I get paid seven figures to tell the world my feet smell?

It's obvious the guy's a headcase.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 19 July 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[lexrageorge]

God, the guy is making millions of dollars doing something he LOVES, and I'm supposed to sit here and think he's a hero for pointing out the obvious? Why can't I get paid seven figures to tell the world my feet smell?

It's obvious the guy's a headcase.

And, really, WTF is he supposed to do? Edes asks him for an interview. If he says "no", then everyone jumps on him for acting entitled, and the FO gets on his case about the need to be available to the media. So, he grants the interview, and answers the questions posed to him about whether he is happy in Boston, happy with his performance, etc.

Really, what should have said instead?

[TheoShmeo]

Like others, I appreciated Lester's comments and candor.

That said, I think this was a little much:

"The Red Sox believe what's written," he said. "If it's written that I should be traded, more times than not that's what ends up happening. Look at the people who've gotten traded around here. It's not their doing."

I don't think that's remotely true. Cafardo alone has suggested a zillion trades over the years that haven't happened. (Though maybe he doesn't count.)

And if you look at some of the guys who were traded, the reasons vary and the suggestion that the Sox were reacting to media pressure seems a bit much. Consider:

- Some were suggesting a Nomar trade but Theo's comments at the time said to me that he had his own reasons -- improving the defense (and yes, ridding themselves of his attitude) -- for the move.

- The Hanley trade was a complete shocker.

- It's true that the media was suggesting that the Sox trade Manny, but Manny himself was begging to be sent out. That trade was hardly a media invention.

- Even the Youks trade seemed more about the logjam and Youks' unwillingness or unsuitability to be a bench player, and unhappiness with Bobby after Bobby's silly comments than following through on a media suggestion.

- The Bronson Arroyo trade was totally out of the blue.

Maybe I'm missing it but I can't think of many trades that were precipated by the suggestions of Boston writers.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 19 July 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Like others, I appreciated Lester's comments and candor.

That said, I think this was a little much:

That's the one I was talking about that joe dokes already nailed. I think Lester is getting a chicken-egg question backwards there. Trades get written about because there are already preliminary conversations going on about them, and then when they happen it looks like they were the writer's idea, but I suspect they seldom really are.

[rembrat]

And, really, WTF is he supposed to do? Edes asks him for an interview. If he says "no", then everyone jumps on him for acting entitled, and the FO gets on his case about the need to be available to the media. So, he grants the interview, and answers the questions posed to him about whether he is happy in Boston, happy with his performance, etc.

Really, what should have said instead?

What's wrong is that fans think the players owe them anything. Who the fuck cares if Jon Lester feels bad about sucking? Why does that make anyone feel better about him sucking?

[AimingForYoko]

And if Beckett had said this it would be torches and pitchforks:

Don't worry, I'm sure Beckett will get the blame for this somehow.

I'm not going to praise Lester for this but at the very least nothing that he's said has made me hate him even more.

[Al Zarilla]

I just wish he had an inkling (unless he's just not saying) of what may be wrong. "Pitching coach McClure and I are working on a couple of things, but obviously we haven't nailed it yet. We'll get it, I have confidence". Something like that.

[BroodsSexton]

What's wrong is that fans think the players owe them anything. Who the fuck cares if Jon Lester feels bad about sucking? Why does that make anyone feel better about him sucking?

Misery likes company.

[yecul]

This is really good to read. I am happy that our former ace who now sucks and may never be good again has the competitive spirit.

[NomarRS05]

I don't see how people can be bothered by this. God forbid a player actually gives us something more than hackneyed sports cliches to talk about. It's not like this has any negative effect on the clubhouse atmosphere.

[mauidano]

Nice article. Surprised it was Edes. Fine, you feel bad, you're human. Just throw a couple of games where at the very least you don't give up any runs in the first inning. How's that for a starting point? Build from there.

[Ed Hillel]

And, really, WTF is he supposed to do? Edes asks him for an interview. If he says "no", then everyone jumps on him for acting entitled, and the FO gets on his case about the need to be available to the media. So, he grants the interview, and answers the questions posed to him about whether he is happy in Boston, happy with his performance, etc.

Really, what should have said instead?

I was just making VanEveryman happy (see post 10).

Personally, I don't really care how players act/react to things off the field if they aren't harming anyone. Some people get sad, some people get mad, some are apathetic...whatever works for the individual. I also think it may be a bit of a time-waster to break down what people say word by word, particularly when they are reacting quickly to questions from the media.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 19 July 2012 - 01:31 PM.

[lexrageorge]

What's wrong is that fans think the players owe them anything. Who the fuck cares if Jon Lester feels bad about sucking? Why does that make anyone feel better about him sucking?

No, you're the one who doesn't care what Lester has to say. That's fine. There's obviously lots of other folks that do, or Edes wouldn't have a job. Criticize his ERA or his cutter if you must; but to criticize him for saying what he's said is just plain dumb.

[Kull]

Who the fuck cares if Jon Lester feels bad about sucking? Why does that make anyone feel better about him sucking?

That's roughly where I am. You go into your boss after a series of business failures and tell him that, well, you really feel bad about it - and that's it - well, see where that gets you. To that point, folks should click on the link and read the whole article, because Lester does talk about what he's actually doing to change the results, but to me it doesn't sound like much. Basically chatting a bit with coaches and other pitchers, and trusting that previous success means he's bound to get better. Now I've never pitched a day in my life, so maybe that's what the state of the art is for pitchers who need to "find themselves", but it just seems like more could be done (and maybe it is, but he's just not getting into the details). The closest I could find to that is this:

"The thing about baseball is all you can control is to be as prepared as you can. In basketball, you can shoot a million shots a day, you get better at it, you see results immediately. In baseball, I can't throw a million throws; I wouldn't be able to pitch on Sunday. When you need to make adjustments, when you need to alter things and work on things, you have to pick and choose. During the season is a hard time to make adjustments."

That last bit in particular is more than a bit worrying. Maybe it is hard to make adjustments during the season, but realistically, what other choice is there?

Edited by Kull, 19 July 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[reggiecleveland]

And if Beckett had said this it would be torches and pitchforks:

If Beckett said his family was more important than baseball people would get mad? That's ridiculous.

[joe dokes]

That's roughly where I am. You go into your boss after a series of business failures and tell him that, well, you really feel bad about it - and that's it - well, see where that gets you.

It would get the individual nowhere. But that's not the point. Edes isn't Lester's boss. A better analogy would be to read the first hand account of some business disaster pepetrated by some previously sucessful businessman. It's often interesting to read someone own thoughtful account of their own failure.
Its not earth-shattering, but I would find it interesting. Nothing more. YMMV.

[AimingForYoko]

If Beckett said his family was more important than baseball people would get mad? That's ridiculous.

Not sure if serious....

[Otis Foster]

It would get the individual nowhere. But that's not the point. Edes isn't Lester's boss. A better analogy would be to read the first hand account of some business disaster pepetrated by some previously sucessful businessman. It's often interesting to read someone own thoughtful account of their own failure.
Its not earth-shattering, but I would find it interesting. Nothing more. YMMV.

Precisely the point. He's someone who's struggling to get back to earlier success. Maybe he gets there, and maybe he doesn't. Maybe he retires in RS laundry, and maybe he gets traded to the Pirates tomorrow (although if he is, he may have improved his WS prospects). But he's thinking about how to reverse this trend, and he cares about his performance. Someone commented earlier about the man-love for Trot Nixon, and now for Pedroia. They left it all on the field, and demonstrably cares/cared. Well, so does Lester.

At the end of the day, if he doesn't come back, he's gone. No hearts and flowers over that. But to vilify him for telling us he cares about his lousy performance and is working to improve it, that's stupid, and it's the kind of crap from both media and fans that can make Boston a hell-hole to play in.

[BroodsSexton]

"The thing about baseball is all you can control is to be as prepared as you can. In basketball, you can shoot a million shots a day, you get better at it, you see results immediately. In baseball, I can't throw a million throws; I wouldn't be able to pitch on Sunday. When you need to make adjustments, when you need to alter things and work on things, you have to pick and choose. During the season is a hard time to make adjustments."

This is an interesting quote, because it also gives some insight, maybe, into how things can go from bad to worse for a pitcher who's had a few bad starts. If he's out there on the mound trying to make adjustments in real time, that might be doing more harm than good, right? Or is that not what happens? I'm curious whether pitchers are consciously trying to adjust their mechanics, for example, while they're out there throwing, or whether they just evaluate their pitches on the off days and then "go out there and throw." Because I could imagine how the former approach could lead to a complete trainwreck, kind of like how oscillations with a suspension bridge can become magnified.

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

I just wish he had an inkling (unless he's just not saying) of what may be wrong. "Pitching coach McClure and I are working on a couple of things, but obviously we haven't nailed it yet. We'll get it, I have confidence". Something like that.

For me, this could be the dog that didn't bark. I don't follow the media all that closely, although I can't recall an interview or reporter talking about how any of the struggling guys have been working closely with the coaching staff to figure out what's happening and to fix stuff.

[HriniakPosterChild]

"The Red Sox believe what's written," he said. "If it's written that I should be traded, more times than not that's what ends up happening. Look at the people who've gotten traded around here. It's not their doing."

I don't think that's remotely true. Cafardo alone has suggested a zillion trades over the years that haven't happened. (Though maybe he doesn't count.)

I don't think it's true either. But I think Jon Lester does think it's true.

This is an interesting quote, because it also gives some insight, maybe, into how things can go from bad to worse for a pitcher who's had a few bad starts. If he's out there on the mound trying to make adjustments in real time, that might be doing more harm than good, right? Or is that not what happens? I'm curious whether pitchers are consciously trying to adjust their mechanics, for example, while they're out there throwing, or whether they just evaluate their pitches on the off days and then "go out there and throw." Because I could imagine how the former approach could lead to a complete trainwreck, kind of like how oscillations with a suspension bridge can become magnified.

Mike Mussina said something similar toward the end of his career. (If I remember correctly, it was after a bad start against the Red Sox.) Hittes can go out and take extra BP, and infielders can take an extra hundred ground balls. Starting pitchers get to wait for their next start and try to figure it out in a real game.

[Van Everyman]

I was just making VanEveryman happy (see post 10).

And you did.

For my part, I think that this interview should go a long way toward tamping down the "Lester is miserable and needs a change of scenery" talk.

That said, all I can think about anytime Lester talks about his kid is that stupid "ball in mah hand" truck ad and the poster who thinks Lester is talking about Pedroia when he boasts about taking the wife and the little man out to dinner.

[RedOctober3829]

The Braves are seeking pitching help prior to the trade deadline, and MLB.com's Mark Bowman reports that they recently called the Red Sox about Jon Lester. Boston is not yet looking to sell, something we heard earlier this month.

[pjr]

From Cafardo's column in the Globe today.

“Some of the demands out there are ludicrous,” said one NL adviser. “We asked about a lefty pitcher and they asked us for our best pitching, best hitting, and a couple of other established players. I said, ‘Are you kidding me?’ That’s why I’m thinking despite all the talking, I’m not sure much is going to get done.”

Sounds like this was Cherington's response to Atlanta when they aked about Lester.

http://www.bostonglo...rXEI/story.html

[Rudy Pemberton]

Well, speaking his mind didn't pay any immediate dividends, huh? Good christ.

[Mike F]

Am I the only one who is considering the loss of Tek has adversely affected both Lester and Becket?

[Laser Show]

Am I the only one who is considering the loss of Tek has adversely affected both Lester and Becket?

I'm surprised this isn't getting more play. That and Farrell leaving (granted that was a year ago).

[Buzzkill Pauley]

How incredibly frustrated must a hitter on the Sox be right now?

[NomarRS05]

Anyone else have a problem with Bobby V leaving Lester in to take a beating. I'm sure it does wonders for the guy's confidence.

[Adrian's Dome]

Anyone else have a problem with Bobby V leaving Lester in to take a beating. I'm sure it does wonders for the guy's confidence.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying here, but alternatively, you could see it as giving him a chance to try and figure things out against live major-league hitters in a game that was pretty much lost. You can throw all the side sessions in the world, but it isn't the same as pitching in a live game. Plus, why torch the bullpen before two series against the two best teams in the AL?

I'm not sure what to think of it, I can see the reasoning both ways. It's one of those situations that's pretty much unwinnable.

[86spike]

Anyone else have a problem with Bobby V leaving Lester in to take a beating. I'm sure it does wonders for the guy's confidence.

Lester is a veteran MLB pitcher. He doesn't need coddling.

[Larry Gardner]

Last year in an interview I remember him saying that he'll always start with FB, and if one goes out, that's better than starting out walking guys. I think he's way too predictable in the 1st inning of games. Why wouldn't every hitter come up to the plate looking for a FB on the 1st pitch. Lawrie's HR in the 1st was almost predictable. Why not throw a curve/change/cutter to start?

[RedOctober3829]

His struggles are nobody's fault but his own. Tek, Farrell, etc. wouldn't make this big of a difference in a pitcher's career. He is legitimately one of the worst pitchers in the game right now. I think it's all in his head. He's got to figure out what the hell is wrong and fast.

[OCD SS]

From Cafardo's column in the Globe today.

“Some of the demands out there are ludicrous,” said one NL adviser. “We asked about a lefty pitcher and they asked us for our best pitching, best hitting, and a couple of other established players. I said, ‘Are you kidding me?’ That’s why I’m thinking despite all the talking, I’m not sure much is going to get done.”

Sounds like this was Cherington's response to Atlanta when they aked about Lester.

Eh, with over a week left until the deadline this just looks like posturing to me. If it was about Lester then Ben is right to try to shoot the moon; Lester has shown that he can pitch like an ace from the left side and is on a great contract if/ when he puts it back together. If the Sox think he can't straighten himself out then they've already got a list of teams they can call before the deadline (IIRC Texas was also rumored to have called about him).

[RedOctober3829]

Trading Lester is a legitimate thing to think about/bring up. He's struggled for the better part of 5 months of baseball and it keeps getting worse. It would be the epitome of selling low and I wouldn't support such a move under a lot of circumstances given he's 28 years old and under an affordable contract for next season. But, if management thinks it's so far in his head that his struggles will continue as long as he's in Boston well then you need to shop him around. Again, it would be selling low but it's gotten to the point where trading him is a legitimate discussion.

[Hokie Sox]

Tek, Farrell, etc. wouldn't make this big of a difference in a pitcher's career.

Do you have any statistics to support this line of reasoning, or are we now supporting the Skip Bayless argument style on SOSH.

[Hokie Sox]

Tek, Farrell, etc. wouldn't make this big of a difference in a pitcher's career.

Do you have any statistics to support this line of reasoning, or are we now supporting the Skip Bayless argument style on SOSH?