177 replies to this topic

[Corsi]

How’s this for a blockbuster?

Left fielder Carl Crawford to the Miami Marlins for either shortstop Jose Reyes or third basemanHanley Ramirez, with other pieces and significant cash involved.

The Boston Red Sox are contacting teams to gauge their trade interest in Crawford, according to major-league sources.

No trade appears close. Such a deal would be difficult to accomplish, given the size of Crawford’s contract and his lingering elbow problems. But the first lesson of the July 31 non-waiver deadline is that nothing is impossible.
The Red Sox, sources said, reached out to both the Marlins and Los Angeles Dodgers, though another source said that no discussions took place with the Dodgers. The Marlins, historically open to any possibility, would at least consider the concept, sources said.

“There’s nothing going on with Carl,” Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington said. “He’s our left fielder and we’re glad to have him back in our lineup.”

Yet, while there are conflicting accounts about the nature of the Crawford talks, a trade could make sense for the Red Sox — if not now, then this offseason, assuming that Crawford plays well enough in the second half to restore his value.

The Sox could try to move Crawford to a variety of clubs; his contract allows him to block trades to only two teams, and states that any club that acquires him cannot trade him to the New York Yankees.

http://msn.foxsports...-dodgers-071812

[StuckOnYouk]

The guy has two good games, looks emotionally involved and aggressive...and now this comes out? How is this going to handle his nerves? They can't just wait until the offseason and let him put up a couple of good months and then do this?

Seems like he's a little fragile mentally, so I'm not happy with this getting leaked right now.

Now if he wants to get the hell out of dodge and is excited about playing to get OUT of Boston, maybe that's different.

Edited by StuckOnYouk, 18 July 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[wutang112878]

I forget how much the Rangers paid, but I think A-Rod was the biggest contract ever traded and the Yankees took on about $100M [while the Rangers paid $60M+] when A-Rod was 27. Meanwhile, Crawford is 30 and has never put up the numbers that A-Rod has, and has about $100M left. Consider his age, and inferior production I would think we would have to eat at least $35-40M to actually move him right? Because at that AAV he might have some value.

[TheYaz67]

Not good timing for Jose's outreach efforts to Carl either!

[bosockboy]

The Marlins are a good mark....they are frustrated and might be apt to do something stupid. I'm sure the Sox would prefer Ramirez, and if they ate enough money, get Josh Johnson out of the deal.

[Corsi]

The Marlins are a good mark....they are frustrated and might be apt to do something stupid. I'm sure the Sox would prefer Ramirez, and if they ate enough money, get Josh Johnson out of the deal.

Do we want Ramirez? He's a headcase and his OPS the last three seasons: .853, .712, .763.

And he's no great shakes defensively.

edit: fixed OPS numbers

Edited by Corsi, 18 July 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[Marbleheader]

Teams gauge interest on every player on their roster all the time. Rosenthal is just stirring the pot so he can write an article next week about how unhappy Crawford is about the trade rumors.

[bosockboy]

Not sure how you can market him with his duct-tape elbow, though.

[bosockboy]

Do we want Ramirez? He's a headcase and his OPS the last three seasons: .853, .712, .713.

And he's no great shakes defensively.

I just meant contract wise....

[trekfan55]

This does not make sense. And keep in mind that Ben is denying everything.

The Sox finally have the starting OF they envisioned in ST, why would they trade Crawford now? The Marlins just spent a fortune and opened a new stadium. Would they really trade Hanley (I agree that at this point he's not what he used to be) or Reyes, one of their big splashes to take on Crawford? If they decide to sell, they may dump some contracts, but may do so in the interest of rebuilding.

[LesterFan]

Bob Nightengale ‏@BNightengale
The #RedSox and #Marlins discussing blockbuster: Carl Crawford and prospect to Miami for Hanley Ramirez and Heath Bell. #MLB

https://twitter.com/...648887715729408

[SoxScout]

BNightengale: The #RedSox and #Marlins discussing blockbuster: Carl Crawford and prospect to Miami for Hanley Ramirez and Heath Bell.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Oh, the Marlins initiated? Nevermind then.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 18 July 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[shoebox91]

Just when I thought I had heard it all. This is so completely nuts. I would love to know who the "sources" are on this one...

[Al Zarilla]

Hanley doesn't even play short anymore (third base, sometimes in the OF last year). Sox have a 3bman, don't they?

BNightengale: The #RedSox and #Marlins discussing blockbuster: Carl Crawford and prospect to Miami for Hanley Ramirez and Heath Bell.

Hanley doesn't even play short anymore (third base, sometimes OF last year). Sox have a third baseman, don't they?

[EddieYost]

They could put him back at SS couldn't they? Or maybe he goes to LF.

[Jnai]

Awesome. Is this more of the buy high, sell low strategy that the Cherington regime has been carrying out? How does one investigate Crawford for over a year, give him a massive contract, and then decide that they effed up? And, how can those same folks be then trusted to move him?

If true, this just confirms what we already know, that this organization has no god damn plan at all.

To be fair, you can't really buy any lower on someone than you can on Heath Bell.

Also, I think this trade proposal is a) silly and b) will never happen. But I know nothing about these things, so...

Edited by Jnai, 18 July 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[Corsi]

The Miami Marlins have approached the Boston Red Sox about a blockbuster trade that would send left fielder Carl Crawford and a prospect to South Florida for infielder Hanley Ramirez and closer Heath Bell, according to three officials with knowledge of the talks who spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity because negotiations are ongoing.

The biggest impediment to a deal, according to one of the officials, is the Marlins' indecision whether to unload their high-paid players and abandon playoff hopes for this season and build for next season, or try to overcome the nine-game deficit they face in the NL East and 5½ games they trail for an NL wild-card berth

http://www.usatoday....rade/56309810/1

Edited by Corsi, 18 July 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[SoxScout]

http://www.usatoday....rade/56309810/1

The Miami Marlins have approached the Boston Red Sox about a blockbuster trade that would send left fielder Carl Crawford and a prospect to South Florida for infielder Hanley Ramirez and closer Heath Bell, according to three officials with knowledge of the talks who spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity because negotiations are ongoing.

The biggest impediment to a deal, according to one of the officials, is the Marlins' indecision whether to unload their high-paid players and abandon playoff hopes for this season and build for next season, or try to overcome the nine-game deficit they face in the NL East and 5½ games they trail for an NL wild-card berth.

The Red Sox have coveted Ramirez, 28, almost since the day he left. He was the 2006 National League Rookie of the Year and won the batting title in 2009 with a career-high .342 average, but he has struggled the past 1½ seasons. He hit a career-low .243 with 10 homers and 45 RBI last season, and after moving to third base this year to make room for All-Star shortstop Jose Reyes, is hitting just .249 with a .326 on-base percentage, 14 homers and 47 RBI.

[dbn]

I don't think a Crawford-Ramirez swap makes the team better in a vacuum (H.R. might be a better shortstop than M.A. going forward, but I'm not convinced the difference is much more than Crawford vs. his replacement going forward). What would make such a trade a win would be if they could use the money saved to improve elsewhere -- Crawford makes $81.5M over then next 4 years, Ramirez $31.5 over the next 2.

Reyes? He makes $92M over the next 5 (+ club option in 2018 for $22M), so there's no savings.

FWIW (i.e., keep in mind position and defense matter!) their OPSs going back a bit, with seasons with few ABs not included.

yr   HR   JR	MA   CC
06 0.833 0.841 ----- 0.830
07 0.948 0.775 ----- 0.821
08 0.940 0.833 0.834 0.719
09 0.953 ----- ----- 0.816
10 0.853 0.749 0.748 0.851
11 0.712 0.877 0.698 0.694
12 0.763 0.708 0.703 -----

[bosockboy]

If that was straight up, how much cash would it save us?

[Al Zarilla]

They could put him back at SS couldn't they? Or maybe he goes to LF.

He wasn't good at short, not much better at third. Career UZR/150 at short of -9.1.

[Greg29fan]

What does Heath Bell do to improve the bullpen? He's been awful for the Marlins and as shaky as Alfredo has been, I wouldn't trust him to close in the AL East.

[Toe Nash]

Olney says nothing doing:
https://twitter.com/...652631622782976

Sources:There is no current discussion involving Crawford and Hanley Ramirez/Heath Bell. Was brought up briefly as concept,immediately died.

[SoxScout]

What does Heath Bell do to improve the bullpen? He's been awful for the Marlins and as shaky as Alfredo has been, I wouldn't trust him to close in the AL East.

All about the money man, Marlins want him gone

[TheYellowDart5]

I know this FO is probably desperate to rid themselves of Crawford's contract, but really, the best they can do is a malcontent player with motivation and weight issues who is a disaster defensively and has seen his offensive numbers plunge for three straight years, and a fat 34-year-old closer with an odious long-term deal who has completely forgotten how to get anyone out? And they'd have to kick in cash and a prospect?

I doubt anything will come of this, but really?

And Olney now says it was never a thing. Good.

[bosockboy]

Wonder if Anibal could be involved....that solves your SP need.

[Corsi]

If that was straight up, how much cash would it save us?

Ramirez: 12:$15M, 13:$15.5M, 14:$16M
Bell: 12:$6M, 13:$9M, 14:$9M, , 14:$9M (can become guaranteed based on performance)

Crawford: 12:$19.5M, 13:$20M, 14:$20.25M, 15:$20.5M, 16:$20.75M,17:$21M

So, if there's no cash involved, it's a savings of $44M from 2013-onward.

I'd have to imagine some cash is involved, though.

[uncannymanny]

Wait, MIAMI initiated this? Immediate red flag. Sounds like they know something about Hanley no one else does. Why else would they be trying to get a clearly underperforming, overpaid guy? So weird.

[DanoooME]

Ramirez: 12:$15M, 13:$15.5M, 14:$16M
Bell: 12:$6M, 13:$9M, 14:$9M, , 14:$9M (can become guaranteed based on performance)

Crawford: 12:$19.5M, 13:$20M, 14:$20.25M, 15:$20.5M, 16:$20.75M,17:$21M

So, if there's no cash involved, it's a savings of $44M from 2013-onward.

I'd have to imagine some cash is involved, though.

And AAV is just about a push, so the Sox would probably have to fork over $30-35M.

Funny little exercise that was.

[Corsi]

Wait, MIAMI initiated this? Immediate red flag. Sounds like they know something about Hanley no one else does. Why else would they be trying to get a clearly underperforming, overpaid guy? So weird.

Because they'd be trading one, too.

[gammoseditor]

Wait, MIAMI initiated this? Immediate red flag. Sounds like they know something about Hanley no one else does. Why else would they be trying to get a clearly underperforming, overpaid guy? So weird.

Yeah, they know something about Hanley that everyone else does. He's not that good, making a ton of money, and unhappy with the position he's playing.

And when it says Miami came to us asking for Crawford and a prospect is there any doubt the prospect was Xander? Sounds like a crappy deal for the Sox and one that got shot down.

[dcmissle]

The Marlins are a good mark....they are frustrated and might be apt to do something stupid. I'm sure the Sox would prefer Ramirez, and if they ate enough money, get Josh Johnson out of the deal.

The Marlins are a good mark in these circumstances, based on track records particularly of late? This scares the hell out of me.

ps ... We're going to be featured in lots of these reports because the RS have done a splendid job of making themselves the designated mark for mlb.

Edited by dcmissle, 18 July 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[mauidano]

Teams gauge interest on every player on their roster all the time. Rosenthal is just stirring the pot so he can write an article next week about how unhappy Crawford is about the trade rumors.

This. Exactly. Fuck Rosenthal and his bow tie.

[Al Zarilla]

This. Exactly. Fuck Rosenthal and his bow tie.

And that hole he stands in whenever he interviews anybody? Fill it with concrete.

[bosockboy]

Except Nightengale reported it also...independently of Rosenthal. Doesn't mean anything happens.....but there's likely a little smoke.

[SoxScout]

Nightengale is like Tim Brown, not a rumormonger like Rosenthal or Heyman, but when they say something, there is at least smoke.

[glennhoffmania]

Wait, Bell could be guaranteed $27m over the next three years? That's pretty awful.

[RedOctober3829]

Nightengale is like Tim Brown, not a rumormonger like Rosenthal or Heyman, but when they say something, there is at least smoke.

Remember, a quick denial was issued on Youkilis trade talks too. I'm not sure what a Crawford-Reyes or Ramirez trade would accomplish. I'd rather keep Crawford than take other teams headaches which is all you can do with the 110 million left on his deal. Heath Bell is awful too.

[SoxScout]

BNightengale: @JdMcAuliffe No, obviously still on table if #Marlins decide to sell. VP Dan Jennings is in Boston scouting Crawford right now.

[RedOctober3829]

I was just about to post that. Wow, it's more than just a rumor now. When management is scouting someone, that's big.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Nightengale is like Tim Brown, not a rumormonger like Rosenthal or Heyman, but when they say something, there is at least smoke.

I think it's possible they both heard the same rumor/story, then reported it from complete opposite angles. Nightengale's report implies that Miami is the one initiating the whole thing inquiring about Crawford, while Rosenthal's report implied that the Red Sox were shopping Crawford.

Rosenthal's report makes the Red Sox look like the aggressors, so obviously we as Sox fans get all up in arms and think he's making things up to stir the pot. But since Nightengale's report makes the Sox look like their taking calls rather than making them, we're more inclined to believe him.

[RedOctober3829]

Gammons: this is comical. This isn't going to happen. They'll trade for a pitcher, maybe Garza.

At this pt, how much can you trust what he says?

[SoxScout]

Gammons: "Inaccurate. Marlins deal not happening. The Sox have not called anyone. This isn't happening. You think Nava is going to be in LF every day?"

[glennhoffmania]

I'm trying to understand how getting Crawford would be part of Miami's plans to sell. Unless Boston eats a majority of his contract it's swapping one problem for another.

[trekfan55]

If the Sox trade Crawford it means they admit they made a mistake with him. I guess they could do that. And if Jennings is indeed scouting Crawford then I guess something is on the table.

But if Ben (or LL) make a deal for Hanley and Bell it would be beyond stupid. If the Sox want to exchange contracts with anyone I am pretty sure the contracts they will be taking on would not be that of a closer who cannot close and an unhappy, overweight 3rd baseman who can barley hit anymore.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I'm trying to understand how getting Crawford would be part of Miami's plans to sell. Unless Boston eats a majority of his contract it's swapping one problem for another.

Very much this. If Miami is shopping Bell and Ramirez, they're looking to dump the salary obligation, not trade one obligation for a bigger/longer commitment. If the rumor was they were offering Hanley and/or Bell to the Sox for Bogaerts and Bradley or something, I think there'd be more to the plausibillity of the whole thing.

[reggiecleveland]

Buster on twitter

Sources:There is no current discussion involving Crawford and Hanley Ramirez/Heath Bell. Was brought up briefly as concept,immediately died.

https://twitter.com/...652631622782976

[uncannymanny]

Because they'd be trading one, too.

Well, sure, but if I was going to have an underperforming guy with a chance to turn it around, I'd choose the guy with higher upside and a cheaper, shorter contract. IOW, what problem does taking on Carl Crawford solve for the Marlins? It isn't money or years or performance. Dumping Bell doesn't make this any more palatable from their end either.

Edited by uncannymanny, 18 July 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Gammons: "Inaccurate. Marlins deal not happening. The Sox have not called anyone. This isn't happening. You think Nava is going to be in LF every day?"

Well, he has been for the past few months, no?