117 replies to this topic

[Judge Mental13]

Maybe they can call up Zach Stewart to be the DH while he's out.

Seriously, ithe whole rush to trade Kevin Youkilis reminds me of the offseason when Willie McGee wanted to play for Boston and Lou Gorman famously asked, "Where would we play him?"

Since the dumping of Kevin Youkilis, there has been about 2 games where he wouldn't have easily slid into the lineup as an injury replacement. As they often say when teams start to run into playing time issues, "These things have a way of working themselves out."

But Cherington once again paniced and sold low on a very valuable asset. So, chalk up another black mark on their system of major league talent evaluation over the past few years. The dumping of Youkilis will end up being as costly as the the contracts given to Cameron and Jenks, just from a different angle.

No it won't.

Youk would've played a couple games at 3B while Middlebrooks was out and then he's back to the bench until Papi hurts himself, then he gets a few games at DH and we're right back to square one. The Youk issue wasn't going to "work itself out" with the aide of a few short-term injuries. That's silly.

[Plympton91]

Youk would've played a couple games at 3B while Middlebrooks was out and then he's back to the bench until Papi hurts himself, then he gets a few games at DH and we're right back to square one. The Youk issue wasn't going to "work itself out" with the aide of a few short-term injuries. That's silly.

Middlebrooks missed 6 games, then the break ended and Gonzalez missed two games, and as noted above, the last time Ortiz had something like this he missed 9 games. The dumping of Youkilis at the lowest value he's ever had is an unforgivable mistake.

[JimBoSox9]

Middlebrooks missed 6 games, then the break ended and Gonzalez missed two games, and as noted above, the last time Ortiz had something like this he missed 9 games. The dumping of Youkilis at the lowest value he's ever had is an
unforgivable mistake.

You honestly think for one second that Youks was going to be happy getting his playing time as a supersub, even if it ended up being mostly an everyday role due to injuries? Bullshit. The only way the situation even comes close to working is if Youks had been starting 3B and WMB had been the one moving all around the lineup. Even then it may not have worked given the Bobby V heart-questioning incident. On top of that, all available evidence indicates that the league-wide perception of the gas left in Kevin's tank was bearish. Your continual attempts to cast that trade as a massive failure of Cherington's despite that reads as increasingly obstinate and an irrational disposition towards the GM.

[MikeM]

Middlebrooks missed 6 games, then the break ended and Gonzalez missed two games, and as noted above, the last time Ortiz had something like this he missed 9 games. The dumping of Youkilis at the lowest value he's ever had is an unforgivable mistake.

So what, one 8 game hitting streak latter and you now think teams would suddenly be lining up to offer better prospect packages for his services? Because i'm not seeing the current reality in that.

Even in the event Ortiz was to go down for an extended period of time, and in the grander scheme of things as they stand now, i'd still be sitting here arguing that going in to next off-season while having gotten an extended look at Lavarnway at the MLB level > keeping Youk around to fill in and then paying his $1m buyout at the end of the season.


If that means risking the loss of some cinderella scenario where this team goes on a roll and wins another world series, with Youk's presence being an absolutely crucial part in making that all happen, i'm fine with rolling the dice against that btw.

[941827]

You honestly think for one second that Youks was going to be happy getting his playing time as a supersub, even if it ended up being mostly an everyday role due to injuries? Bullshit. The only way the situation even comes close to working is if Youks had been starting 3B and WMB had been the one moving all around the lineup. Even then it may not have worked given the Bobby V heart-questioning incident. On top of that, all available evidence indicates that the league-wide perception of the gas left in Kevin's tank was bearish. Your continual attempts to cast that trade as a massive failure of Cherington's despite that reads as increasingly obstinate and an irrational disposition towards the GM.

The team was not better off with the Mauro Gomez-Punto pu-pu platter playing third and first the past couple of weeks instead of Youkilis. Given that Cherington was willing to trade Youkilis for essentially nothing, waiting until the trading deadline, or at least until Middlebrooks was healthy, to do so would have been much more sensible in light of the team's injury history. BV whined to LL that he wanted Youks gone and Cherington did what he was told despite what would have been best for the team. This was not a defensible baseball move.

[SoxVindaloo]

BV whined to LL that he wanted Youks gone and Cherington did what he was told despite what would have been best for the team.

Where did you see this? I have not read this anywhere. Is it conjecture? We can all be unhappy about the trade but did Cherington really have any choice? The fact that Middlebrooks immediately got hurt and Youks started raking do not change the metrics of June 24th.

Edited by SoxVindaloo, 17 July 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[MikeM]

The team was not better off with the Mauro Gomez-Punto pu-pu platter playing third and first the past couple of weeks instead of Youkilis. Given that Cherington was willing to trade Youkilis for essentially nothing, waiting until the trading deadline, or at least until Middlebrooks was healthy, to do so would have been much more sensible in light of the team's injury history. BV whined to LL that he wanted Youks gone and Cherington did what he was told despite what would have been best for the team. This was not a defensible baseball move.

Of course, by the "past couple of weeks" you are actually referring to the 7 days/games played between Middlebrooks going down and the all star break. As SoxVindaloo just pointed out, Youk was also traded on June 24th, and that hamstring injury issue with Middlebrooks didn't occur until July 1st. So as far as waiting until Middlebrooks was healthy to pull the trigger goes....yeah

Carry on though.

[snowmanny]

You honestly think for one second that Youks was going to be happy getting his playing time
as a supersub, even if it ended up being mostly an everyday role due to injuries? Bullshit.

I didn't realize that Youkilis's happiness was the
overriding factor.

[scotian1]

I clicked on this thread thinking it was about Ortiz and his injury only to see another drawn out lamenting of the trade of Kevin Youkilis. At the time of that trade Cherington was lucky to get a bag of balls for someone many felt was an injury prone washed up player. Glad to see Youkilis has recovered but he is gone let's move on.

[TheoShmeo]

My problem with the Youks trade all along was that he was sent to a team the Red Sox may be battling with for a WC spot. I hate the fact that he can contribute directly to the Red Sox missing the playoffs not just by absence. I would have only traded him to the NL or one of the few teams in the AL that is definitely out of it.

That something that was forseeable when the trade was made -- an injury to one of Ortiz, Gonzo or Middlebrooks -- has occurred doesn't change the analysis. The Sox apparently reasoned that keeping Youks around without a clear role was worse than the risk of not having Youks to plug a hole, and while I'm not sure I would have made that decision, I'm also not privy to what was happening behind the scenes and just how difficult it would have been to have kept him.

Hopefully, the news on Papi will be good and he'll only be out for a few days. But if he's out for a while, isn't the move to promote Lavarnway and make him the DH? I'm assuming that when they made the Youks trade, they knew they could use Lavarnway as they did last year if Ortiz got hurt.

[OCD SS]

My problem with the Youks trade all along was that he was sent to a team the Red Sox may be battling with for a WC spot. I hate the fact that he can contribute directly to the Red Sox missing the playoffs not just by absence. I would have only traded him to the NL or one of the few teams in the AL that is definitely out of it.

As of when I looked yesterday there were only 3 teams that were out of it; KC , Seatle, and MN. Everyone else was within 1.5 games of the 2nd WC, and the Sox were in the back of that pack. The NL is less tightly packed, but teams that are out of it had no reason to give up anything for Youk.

The bottom line is that without knowing the dynamics at play in the FO and clubhouse we don't have any basis to assign blame for the deal. It would've been nice to have what he's done for the ChiSox in the lineup, but it seems childish to me to assume that things would've worked out the same if he hadn't been dealt and to keep whining about it.

[JimBoSox9]

The team was not better off with the Mauro Gomez-Punto pu-pu platter playing third and first the past couple of weeks instead of Youkilis. Given that Cherington was willing to trade Youkilis for essentially nothing, waiting until the trading deadline, or at least until Middlebrooks was healthy, to do so would have been much more sensible in light of the team's injury history. BV whined to LL that he wanted Youks gone and Cherington did what he was told despite what would have been best for the team. This was not a defensible baseball move.

Of course the team wasn't better off by any objective measure. Here is the conclusion of the post I was replying to:

But Cherington once again paniced and sold low on a very valuable asset. So, chalk up another black mark on their system of major league talent evaluation over the past few years. The dumping of Youkilis will end up being as costly as the the contracts given to Cameron and Jenks, just from a different angle.

My point is not that the situation that led to Youks being on the trade block at the absolute nadir of his value isn't an organizational black mark, because it absolutely is. My point is that the trade itself, in the context of the situation, isn't a failure by BC, and the preceeding situation wasn't his fault either. At that particular moment in time, Billy Branch Barrow couldn't have gotten a decent return for Youkilis. Plympton's need to deflect blame away from his binkies and on to the GM for the whole fiasco is tiring.

[TheoShmeo]

As of when I looked yesterday there were only 3 teams that were out of it; KC , Seatle, and MN. Everyone else was within 1.5 games of the 2nd WC, and the Sox were in the back of that pack. The NL is less tightly packed, but teams that are out of it had no reason to give up anything for Youk.

The bottom line is that without knowing the dynamics at play in the FO and clubhouse we don't have any basis to assign blame for the deal. It would've been nice to have what he's done for the ChiSox in the lineup, but it seems childish to me to assume that things would've worked out the same if he hadn't been dealt and to keep whining about it.

The only thing I'm assuming is that if he was traded to an AL team, that he might help them edge the Red Sox for the last playoff spot.

And I doubt he would have performed as well as he is now had he remained on the Red Sox. The trade and change of scenery almost certainly energized him.

That's precisely why I can't get upset about them not keeping him around for Ortiz/Gonzo/WMB injury insurance. I still would have preferred a trade to a team that wasn't a threat to the Red Sox October hopes, but this Ortiz injury doesn't move the needle for me regarding Youks.

[Plympton91]

Where did you see this? I have not read this anywhere. Is it conjecture? We can all be unhappy about the trade but did Cherington really have any choice? The fact that Middlebrooks immediately got hurt and Youks started raking do not change the metrics of June 24th.

Middlebrooks did not "immediately get hurt." He had already missed several games in the days before the trade due to a hamstring injury. In response to a different poster, I am laughing out loud at the idea that Youkilis having a 900 OPS since the trade indicates that those of us who were opposed to it are being obstinant in our positions. I also appreciate the boundless optimism of youth in MikeM's comment that there is no reason to care if we reduce the probability of winning the championship this year because you might get a look at Lavarnway earlier. I'm sure that Wade Boggs and Roger Clemens thought they'd be right back in the World Series soon after 1986 too; didn't happen.

[LeoCarrillo]

The timing and the haul of the the Youk trade is what's in dispute. The need to trade him is not, and that's seemingly 100% on Bobby V for picking a fight with Youk in Spring Training. In an imaginary world where Bobby V built a harmonious clubhouse, the Sox enjoy a surplus at the corner infield/DH spots and probably option down Middlebrooks one more time, fill in as injuries arrive through the summer and then go with the hottest hands for the stretch run.

I'd assume the Sox would've played out the whole qualifying-offer charade with Youk this winter before he takes a multi-year deal elsewhere. Thus with Lillibridge now DFA'd, the measurement of the tax due to Bobby V's big mouth comes down to the difference between A.) The benefit of Youk for the remainder of this season and a supplemental first round pick in 2013 minus B.) Zach Stewart and a couple million to spend this season.

I'd say that's a fairly sizable net loss due to V.

Edited by LeoCarrillo, 17 July 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[Oil Can Dan]

That's a great little narrative, however you're ignoring the fact that Youklis did not deliver during his time on the Sox this season, and Middlebrooks did. So you're advocating putting the better player on the proverbial bench while the lesser player takes the field. The goal is to win baseball games, and Middlebrooks offered the best opportunity to do just that. Therefore I have no problem with the decision that Youklis should fall behind Middlebrooks on the depth chart. And Youklis on the bench, in my mind, was not an option. I don't think that was an option for him, for BV, or for the front office.

While BVs mouth may or may not have had an effect on Youks ability to perform, the reality is that he was not performing. If you're seriously of the opinion that he did not perform because of something that BV said then there's not much left to discuss.

In any event, I don't blame BC for not having some magical crystal ball that showed that Ortiz was going to injure himself rounding the bases on a HR. And so I don't see why everyone's talking about Youklis in an Ortiz injury thread.

[glennhoffmania]

That's a great little narrative, however you're ignoring the fact that Youklis did not deliver during his time on the Sox this season, and Middlebrooks did. So you're advocating putting the better player on the proverbial bench while the lesser player takes the field. The goal is to win baseball games, and Middlebrooks offered the best opportunity to do just that. Therefore I have no problem with the decision that Youklis should fall behind Middlebrooks on the depth chart. And Youklis on the bench, in my mind, was not an option. I don't think that was an option for him, for BV, or for the front office.

While BVs mouth may or may not have had an effect on Youks ability to perform, the reality is that he was not performing. If you're seriously of the opinion that he did not perform because of something that BV said then there's not much left to discuss.

In any event, I don't blame BC for not having some magical crystal ball that showed that Ortiz was going to injure himself rounding the bases on a HR. And so I don't see why everyone's talking about Youklis in an Ortiz injury thread.

I think your last point is most important, but to respond briefly to your first point: you're stating as a conclusion something that isn't fact. On what are you basing the statement that Middlebrooks is the better player? A few weeks of stats doesn't prove your point. If we had to guess as of today who will be the better player in 2012 going forward, I think it's at worst a toss up. Middlebrooks has zero ML track record. Youkilis, when healthy, has proven to be a very good ML player. He may get hurt again, but for as long as he stays healthy I'd put my money on Youkilis.

[Super Nomario]

The timing and the haul of the the Youk trade is what's in dispute. The need to trade him is not, and that's seemingly 100% on Bobby V for picking a fight with Youk in Spring Training. In an imaginary world where Bobby V built a harmonious clubhouse, the Sox enjoy a surplus at the corner infield/DH spots and probably option down Middlebrooks one more time, fill in as injuries arrive through the summer and then go with the hottest hands for the stretch run.

I'd assume the Sox would've played out the whole qualifying-offer charade with Youk this winter before he takes a multi-year deal elsewhere. Thus with Lillibridge now DFA'd, the measurement of the tax due to Bobby V's big mouth comes down to the difference between A.) The benefit of Youk for the remainder of this season and a supplemental first round pick in 2013 minus B.) Zach Stewart and a couple million to spend this season.

I'd say that's a fairly sizable net loss due to V.

It's a contract year for Youkilis. I don't think he or his agent would have been at all happy with a bench role, even though in hindsight he would have been playing almost every day since he got traded. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Youkilis or his agent demanded a trade behind the scenes. Bobby V certainly could have handled some things better, but once the Red Sox decided Middlebrooks had won the 3B job, the writing was on the wall.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Middlebrooks did not "immediately get hurt." He had already missed several games in the days before the trade due to a hamstring injury.

Youk's last game for the Sox was June 24. At that point, according to BBref, WMB had played in 8 games in a row, starting 6 of them. From June 6 through June 24 he played in 15 of a possible 17 games, starting all but three of them. That's a funny definition of "missing several games in the days before the trade." I don't recall if he had a hamstring injury, but if he did, I think we can safely say that he was playing through it.

[Oil Can Dan]

I think your last point is most important, but to respond briefly to your first point: you're stating as a conclusion something that isn't fact. On what are you basing the statement that Middlebrooks is the better player? A few weeks of stats doesn't prove your point. If we had to guess as of today who will be the better player in 2012 going forward, I think it's at worst a toss up. Middlebrooks has zero ML track record. Youkilis, when healthy, has proven to be a very good ML player. He may get hurt again, but for as long as he stays healthy I'd put my money on Youkilis.

I based it on their respective performances to date for this season at the time of the trade. Seems like a logical and reasonable thing to do.

[HillysLastWalk]

That's a great little narrative, however you're ignoring the fact that Youklis did not deliver during his time on the Sox this season, and Middlebrooks did. So you're advocating putting the better player on the proverbial bench while the lesser player takes the field. The goal is to win baseball games, and Middlebrooks offered the best opportunity to do just that.

And this is exactly why Aaron Cook (131 ERA+) should take the place of Jon Lester, and Pedro Ciriaco (1.054 OPS) should remain the starting second baseman over Dustin Pedroia, and ... oh wait ... no. That's not right.

I hate that the Youkilis debate continues to linger, but this 'Middlebrooks had the better stats' vomit needs to stop. I have to ask: are Kevin Youkilis career stats meaningless? Is there no type of evaluation of either player going forward? (Examples: That Youkilis could improve and be his old self, or that Middlebrooks won't regress at all)?

It seems that the pro-trade camp is relying on a snapshot in time (current stats at the time of trade) and the quote of an annonymous scout that said 'he was cooked' (as if he might not be wrong, or they weren't trying to drive the price down). Meanwhile, it ignores the fact that you just don't give up on all-star third-baseman that easy, in addition to losing infield depth (for this team especially). The Red Sox would have been just fine with Kevin starting and Will Middlebrooks back in AAA (waiting for the eventual injury, or coming back up when the rosters expand).

Edited by HillysLastWalk, 17 July 2012 - 11:45 AM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Youkilis had not played well for a year (but he was hurt, I know). The trends, and scouts, all suggested he was a guy who could no longer catch up to fastballs, was walking less, whiffing more, and hitting more and more weak groundballs. Benching WMB for him just did not make sense at the time.

The trade certainly appears to have reinvigorated Kevin, and that's great for him, and we'll never know if he would have played this well in the past few weeks had he remained with the Red Sox. When he was given opportunities this year, he did not perform, the team decided it was time to move on and ultimately, it's a trade that was probably in the best interests of everyone.

We should probably move on too.

[Oil Can Dan]

It's all relative. Middlebrooks is not some journeyman player that has a long track record of suck. He's a young player with a fairly nice pedigree that was performing at a high level in AAA, and that performed when given the opportunity at the major league level. I don't have a problem with the Sox giving someone like that a chance. Youklis has a great track record, but is also injury prone and not dependable at this point in time. And he's a free agent after this season. And he's seemingly unhappy if not starting.

It's not some traveshamockery that he was moved. The market dictated that he was not worth much, which is unfortunate. And hindsight is showing that he actually could have provided some value had he not been moved. All of those things are true. And they have next to nothing to do with David Ortiz and his achilles injury.

[TheoShmeo]

That's a great little narrative, however you're ignoring the fact that Youklis did not deliver during his time on the Sox this season, and Middlebrooks did. So you're advocating putting the better player on the proverbial bench while the lesser player takes the field. The goal is to win baseball games, and Middlebrooks offered the best opportunity to do just that. Therefore I have no problem with the decision that Youklis should fall behind Middlebrooks on the depth chart. And Youklis on the bench, in my mind, was not an option. I don't think that was an option for him, for BV, or for the front office.

While BVs mouth may or may not have had an effect on Youks ability to perform, the reality is that he was not performing. If you're seriously of the opinion that he did not perform because of something that BV said then there's not much left to discuss.

In any event, I don't blame BC for not having some magical crystal ball that showed that Ortiz was going to injure himself rounding the bases on a HR. And so I don't see why everyone's talking about Youklis in an Ortiz injury thread.

Why should we act as if there isn't a natural connection? One of the things the Sox gave up when they traded Youks was a very credible back-up for WMB, Ortiz and Gonzo. Since Youks has been traded, all three have gotten injured. That doesn't mean that the trade wasn't well advised but it does put a fine point on one of the known risks that were involved.

[JimBoSox9]

And this is exactly why Aaron Cook (131 ERA+) should take the place of Jon Lester, and Pedro Ciriaco (1.054 OPS) should remain the starting second baseman over Dustin Pedroia, and ... oh wait ... no. That's not right.

I hate that the Youkilis debate continues to linger, but this 'Middlebrooks had the better stats' vomit needs to stop. I have to ask: are Kevin Youkilis career stats are meaningless? Is there no type of evaluation of either player going forward? (Examples: That Youkilis could improve and be his old self, or that Middlebrooks won't regress at all)?

It seems that the pro-trade camp is relying on a snapshot in time (current stats at the time of trade) and the quote of an annonymous scout that 'he was cooked' (as if potentially he might be wrong, or they are driving the price down). Meanwhile, it ignores the fact that you just don't give up on all-star third-baseman that easy, in addition to losing infield depth (for this team especially). The Red Sox would have been just fine with Kevin starting and Will Middlebrooks back in AAA (waiting for the eventual injury, or coming back up when the rosters expand).

You keep knocking down the idea of using 2012 stats to defend WMB over Youks in the depth chart, but you have yet to come up with a counter-analysis besides the "career stats" of a 33-year-old with chronic injuries whose OPS had dropped from .975 to .833 to .692. That's not a compelling argument to penciling in Youks as the starter. Make a factual argument as to why, a month ago, a reasonable baseball mind should have put WMB on the bench, and your last couple posts will have a lot more heft.

[HillysLastWalk]

Youkilis had not played well for a year (but he was hurt, I know).

And we shouldn't exaggerate as well. Are we including the off-season? It was the last two months of last year - he was awesome up until August. Then he got off to a slow start/recovering from Hernia surgery/only played 49 games before traded. It's no surprise to me that he is going back to 2011 (pre-inury) awesomeness - especially for a player we only needed to worry about for the rest of this year (trends schmends).

[HillysLastWalk]

You keep knocking down the idea of using 2012 stats to defend WMB over Youks in the depth chart, but you have yet to come up with a counter-analysis besides the "career stats" of a 33-year-old with chronic injuries whose OPS had dropped from .975 to .833 to .692. That's not a compelling argument to penciling in Youks as the starter. Make a factual argument as to why, a month ago, a reasonable baseball mind should have put WMB on the bench, and your last couple posts will have a lot more heft.

LOL. Go read the billion other posts I've made on this subject. It's laughable what you are doing there. You're not going to dig any deeper into those numbers? Really? We can't say, look at his 2011 numbers from March to August (before he got hurt)? 2011 was his first OPS decline. Ever! But we can't dig a little deeper (even though he was awesome before the injury). We can't say, look at his 2012 numbers and think that he might have gotten off to a slow start, or was hurt, or was recovering from surgery? And that he had only played 49 games total?

But, we can say, look at Dustin Pedroia's numbers this year and realize they have suffered because of thumb injuries? But not for Youks.

Or I'm sure you were ready to release Ortiz in 2009. His OPS dropped!!!

It's the same old tired bullcrap. But hey, every day Youkilis gets another 3 hits in a game, I guess we can chalk it up to "change of scenery". We all win!!!

Edited by HillysLastWalk, 17 July 2012 - 11:59 AM.

[glennhoffmania]

I based it on their respective performances to date for this season at the time of the trade. Seems like a logical and reasonable thing to do.

And should those performances be put into context? For example, Youkilis coming back from injury, Middlebrooks having a ridiculously hot start before cooling off (which is hardly surprising for a guy making his debut), the sample sizes, the likelihood of Middlebrooks continuing to out-produce Youkilis. They basically decided that saving $1m and getting Stewart was worth the gamble that Middlebrooks would continue this pace. I'm just saying that it didn't seem like it was a smart gamble at the time, and it certainly doesn't look any better today.

[Van Everyman]

Why are folks giving Youk a free pass on this? He was clearly a pain in the ass about being benched. Doesn't it sound to everyone else like he pretty much demanded a trade?

I get that Bobby didn't necessarily handle that original statement terribly well (tho I also think it was taken out of context). But maybe Youk truly DIDN'T want to get over it and told the team in no uncertain terms that he wanted out. If that's the case, how is this on anyone but Youk himself?

[Rudy Pemberton]

Is there any reason to think that Youkilis's hot streak will continue, though? Lots of guys get traded, start off hot, and then cool down. The declining trends (drop in BB rate, increase in K's, GB / FB rate, lack of performance against fastballs, etc) still exist for Youkilis. Isn't there also the potential benefit of getting WMB regular at bats, that needs to be included in the analysis?

Ultimately, I guess it comes down to whether you think Youkilis's poor start this season was due to injury, and that he was likely to rebound, or natural decline. Or injury, and he wasn't likely to get better. Guess we'll find out, eventually, but watching him this year for the Sox was pretty painful. He didn't look like a guy who was ready to snap out of it and performance the way he has the last 17 games.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 17 July 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[glennhoffmania]

Is there any reason to think that Youkilis's hot streak will continue, though? Lots of guys get traded, start off hot, and then cool down. The declining trends (drop in BB rate, increase in K's, GB / FB rate, lack of performance against fastballs, etc) still exist for Youkilis. Isn't there also the potential benefit of getting WMB regular at bats, that needs to be included in the analysis?

Ultimately, I guess it comes down to whether you think Youkilis's poor start this season was due to injury, and that he was likely to rebound, or natural decline. Or injury, and he wasn't likely to get better. Guess we'll find out, eventually, but watching him this year for the Sox was pretty painful. He didn't look like a guy who was ready to snap out of it and performance the way he has the last 17 games.

This is a fair point but here's what I don't understand. When it comes to pitching, everyone seems to like the idea of stockpiling. Use the phantom DL, use options instead of DFAing someone with none left, etc. Why should this be different? They had 3 corner infielders who were potentially capable of playing everyday. One of them had about a month of ML experience. One was coming off injury. One was off to a really terrible start and there were whispers about whether his shoulder was banged up again. Putting aside personality issues, Bobby issues, Youkilis issues- why in the world would you give one of those 3 guys up for practically nothing considering the tenuous corner infielder situation? Would it have been the worst thing in the world if Middlebrooks was sent down for a month, see how both Youkilis and Gonzalez do, and then reevaluate? I just don't understand the need to trade him in June.

[Oil Can Dan]

Why should we act as if there isn't a natural connection? One of the things the Sox gave up when they traded Youks was a very credible back-up for WMB, Ortiz and Gonzo. Since Youks has been traded, all three have gotten injured. That doesn't mean that the trade wasn't well advised but it does put a fine point on one of the known risks that were involved.

And one of the things the Sox gained by the trade was getting Youklis off the team. No more tension around playing time. No more Adrian in RF. No more hinderence to seeing whether or not we've got something with Middlebrooks. And they got some salary relief.

As to your specific question, I disagree because I do not think Youks as a "very credible backup" was going to work under any circumstance.

[Oil Can Dan]

And should those performances be put into context? For example, Youkilis coming back from injury, Middlebrooks having a ridiculously hot start before cooling off (which is hardly surprising for a guy making his debut), the sample sizes, the likelihood of Middlebrooks continuing to out-produce Youkilis. They basically decided that saving $1m and getting Stewart was worth the gamble that Middlebrooks would continue this pace. I'm just saying that it didn't seem like it was a smart gamble at the time, and it certainly doesn't look any better today.

Youks coming back from injury. Again.

Middlebrooks having a ridiculously hot start then cooling. But cooled to a level that was still outproducing the aging Youklis.

I see the other side of the coin, and I don't disagree that sending down Middlebrooks instead of trading Youks was an option that could make sense. But again, I think you're not putting the best team on the field to win in that scenario. And I'm not even going to get in to whether or not Youks was a distraction to the team or the manager behind the scenes, because none of us know anything about that for sure.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

This is a fair point but here's what I don't understand. When it comes to pitching, everyone seems to like the idea of stockpiling. Use the phantom DL, use options instead of DFAing someone with none left, etc. Why should this be different? They had 3 corner infielders who were potentially capable of playing everyday. One of them had about a month of ML experience. One was coming off injury. One was off to a really terrible start and there were whispers about whether his shoulder was banged up again. Putting aside personality issues, Bobby issues, Youkilis issues- why in the world would you give one of those 3 guys up for practically nothing considering the tenuous corner infielder situation? Would it have been the worst thing in the world if Middlebrooks was sent down for a month, see how both Youkilis and Gonzalez do, and then reevaluate? I just don't understand the need to trade him in June.

I don't disagree with you, and felt that Middlebrooks back to Pawtucket and allowing Youks regular playing time was the way to go as soon as Youks was off the DL.

But I don't think we can evaluate in the vacuum you want to create with the bolded part of your post because ultimately, it was the Bobby vs Youk dynamic that drove the trade. He made it fairly clear all along that he didn't want Youkilis. He probably fought against any notion of sending Middlebrooks down (and the injuries in the OF that resulted in the Gonzo to RF shuffle didn't help matters either). And then when it finally came time to stop sending Gonzo to the outfield and sit one of the two (Youk or Middlebrooks) down with more regularity, Valentine chose Middlebrooks as his starter. The "Youk is gone" rumors only gained steam after Valentine made the decision to play Middlebrooks and sit Youks. Within days after that decision was made, Youks was gone.

We can question why it had to happen right away, but the fact that it did implies that one of Bobby or Youks, and most likely both of them, were not comfortable with Youks on the bench, even for a week.

[glennhoffmania]

I don't disagree with you, and felt that Middlebrooks back to Pawtucket and allowing Youks regular playing time was the way to go as soon as Youks was off the DL.

But I don't think we can evaluate in the vacuum you want to create with the bolded part of your post because ultimately, it was the Bobby vs Youk dynamic that drove the trade. He made it fairly clear all along that he didn't want Youkilis. He probably fought against any notion of sending Middlebrooks down (and the injuries in the OF that resulted in the Gonzo to RF shuffle didn't help matters either). And then when it finally came time to stop sending Gonzo to the outfield and sit one of the two (Youk or Middlebrooks) down with more regularity, Valentine chose Middlebrooks as his starter. The "Youk is gone" rumors only gained steam after Valentine made the decision to play Middlebrooks and sit Youks. Within days after that decision was made, Youks was gone.

We can question why it had to happen right away, but the fact that it did implies that one of Bobby or Youks, and most likely both of them, were not comfortable with Youks on the bench, even for a week.

Then just like some people are saying tough shit if Youkilis didn't get what he wanted, I say tough shit for Bobby. He ain't the GM. He doesn't get the final say on who's on the team and who isn't. If the FO tells him they're sending down Middlebrooks so both he and Youkilis can play regularly he needs to shut up and do it. This is like the scene in Moneyball when Beane tells Howe that he just traded Pena so he can't play first tonight. Ben is Bobby's boss, whether Bobby likes it or not. If Ben (or I guess really Larry) wanted to send down Middlebrooks he wouldn't need Bobby's blessing.

[Rudy Pemberton]

I guess I have a hard time envisioning how sending down WMB so Youks could play every day would have been a move that anyone would have been cool with (I mean, did anyone here even suggest they do this?). It sends a pretty shitty message to everyone, and with WMB playing so well, and Youks so poorly, why would they have done that?

[glennhoffmania]

Well I suggested it and others did too. At that point Middlebrooks wasn't playing so well if my memory isn't terrible. And Youkilis was just off the DL and probably could've used some playing time to get his timing back. Why does that send a shitty message? The message I'd get is, a guy doesn't lose his job because he goes on the DL for 3 weeks and a rookie has a hot start, but if the trend continues then maybe a roster move is in order.

Edit: to add some stats, Middlebrooks' OBP peaked at .435 on May 8. A week later it was .340. When Youkilis returned on May 22 it was .313.

Edited by glennhoffmania, 17 July 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

Youks was also becoming a defensive liability at 3rd base. I happen to think that if Cherington could have A. waited for more demand/ Desperation from other teams closer to the deadline or B. gotten more from any team NL or AL he would have. I'm sure he shopped Youks pretty hard, the rumors were out there for quite awhile. I think the clubhouse situation and the oppurtunity from Chicago forced Ben's hand.

Youks might end up having another 3 or 4 decent seasons, but I think it will be at 1st base. Having him here as a bench player was not sustainable, you couldn't keep playing Gonzo in RF while he was already struggling with confidence etc. and you couldn't risk damaging your future 3rdbaseman's psyche by sending him to the minors while he was mashing in the majors. Meanwhile WMB was better defensively , less injury prone and showing plenty of offense.

Youks was banged up, slow, a mediocre defender, not hitting and from all reports a malcontent.

The writing was on the wall, it wasn't that tough of a choice.

Have Crawford DH, start Nava in left and hold the line till Papi gets back.

[EastCoasterOutWest]

Then just like some people are saying tough shit if Youkilis didn't get what he wanted, I say tough shit for Bobby. He ain't the GM. He doesn't get the final say on who's on the team and who isn't. If the FO tells him they're sending down Middlebrooks so both he and Youkilis can play regularly he needs to shut up and do it. This is like the scene in Moneyball when Beane tells Howe that he just traded Pena so he can't play first tonight. Ben is Bobby's boss, whether Bobby likes it or not. If Ben (or I guess really Larry) wanted to send down Middlebrooks he wouldn't need Bobby's blessing.

And what if getting traded was exactly what Youkilis wanted? He and Bobby clearly didn't get along and Bobby clearly wanted Middlebrooks starting over him. Isn't it possible he went to BC and asked to be traded (which would make sense of the early trade and the lack of a useful return)?

[Super Nomario]

Well I suggested it and others did too. At that point Middlebrooks wasn't playing so well if my memory isn't terrible. And Youkilis was just off the DL and probably could've used some playing time to get his timing back. Why does that send a shitty message? The message I'd get is, a guy doesn't lose his job because he goes on the DL for 3 weeks and a rookie has a hot start, but if the trend continues then maybe a roster move is in order.

Edit: to add some stats, Middlebrooks' OBP peaked at .435 on May 8. A week later it was .340. When Youkilis returned on May 22 it was .313.

Youkilis got playing time when he got back. From May 22 to June 20, he played in all but 3 games, starting all but 4. Two of the off days were in interleague when someone was going to have to sit anyway. The Sox gave him a month of near-continuous PT and he didn't produce - .231/.326/.372. Over the same span, Middlebrooks sat 7 games and didn't start 3 others, and he hit .310/.359/.448. Middlebrooks didn't steal Youkilis' job when he was on the DL; he stole it by outperforming Youks in the month he returned.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Well I suggested it and others did too. At that point Middlebrooks wasn't playing so well if my memory isn't terrible. And Youkilis was just off the DL and probably could've used some playing time to get his timing back. Why does that send a shitty message? The message I'd get is, a guy doesn't lose his job because he goes on the DL for 3 weeks and a rookie has a hot start, but if the trend continues then maybe a roster move is in order.

Edit: to add some stats, Middlebrooks' OBP peaked at .435 on May 8. A week later it was .340. When Youkilis returned on May 22 it was .313.

Middlebrooks got off the an unreal start in his first 5 games...that 5th game is the one where he left in the 2nd with a tight hammy. In the 14 games he played after that, ending on the day of Youk's return, he was at 236/263/382/645 with 2 HR. I don't think it would have been a terrible blow to his ego to go back to Pawtucket for a month or two. All you tell him is that he was brought up to fill in for Youks, and now Youks is back. Great job, kid, go back to AAA and keep doing what you're doing.

I think what is getting overlooked in hindsight is that Middlebrooks stuck around not because he was tearing the cover off the ball, but because Ross hit the DL with his broken foot and Sweeney ended up on the 7-day DL with a concussion at just about the same time Youks returned. The choice to keep Middlebrooks up had much more to do with his bat being better than Lin or Byrd than it was better than Youks. If Ross and/or Sweeney is healthy on May 22, there's a very good chance that Middlebrooks goes down in spite of any protest Bobby V might have had.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Youks got 91 PA's when he got back from the DL; he hit 244 / 319 / 402. It seems likely that the Sox thought Youkilis was in rapid decline, and not likely to be any better than WMB the rest of the way. Since he didn't want to be a backup and wasn't getting along with the manager, they moved him. What they got in return was inconsequential. If he has a 900+ OPS the rest of the way, and WMB has a 700, than yeah, they effed up.

[glennhoffmania]

If Ben is willing to dump a useful player for a bag of crap just because the player asks to be traded, and this trade makes the team worse, I think that's a problem. I can understand Youkilis wanting to be traded if he was told he'd otherwise sit on the bench. If he was told he'd have a chance to show what he can do on the field then not only would his demand be stupid but it should be ignored.

[ngruz25]

WMB didn't "Pipp" Youkilis merely because of his hot start at the MLB level, remember. He murdered the ball from day one in Pawtucket this season, to the tune of a 1.057 OPS in 24 games. There was every reason to think that he was ready for a starting role at the major league level. Not that game threads should necessarily be a thermometer of SoSH's collective temperature, but how many "Kevin who?" posts were there when WMB arrived and immediately picked up where he left off at AAA?

The idea that demoting WMB to give Youkilis at-bats strikes me as pure revisionist history. He was ready and he was contributing. Don't we usually complain when the Sox keep mediocre players on the roster, with their superior replacement stewing away in the minors, purely for roster flexibility purposes?

[smastroyin]

What they got for him is perfectly consequential. If I have an extra BMW I don't give it away just because the new one runs better.

For all the talk of Youk as a distraction or whatever the hell else it is that meant he had to be traded, they are 8-10 since he was traded and there are just as many stupid stories of clubhouse strife and David Ortiz still complained about his salary and etc. etc. etc.

The point being, the idea of "we need to trade him" is stupid and is the way shitty teams like the Mets operate. I don't want to be the damn Mets. Youkilis had his own part in the story, but the entire thing was handled in almost the worst way possible.

[SMU_Sox]

Their baseline value for him was Stewart. Is that exactly enticing? I think we can all agree Stewart was probably Youk's floor value in a trade. Stewart is not a valuable piece for this organization - he will be lucky to be a spare part any time soon.
And even if you assume Youk would have declined even further here you should still take that risk for the chance that he rebounds and you either get more upside in a trade or you have a useful player if WMB, Gonzo, or Ortiz gets injured.
If Youk's value declines then you get a lesser prospect (or $0.20 on the dollar instead of $0.25). But the marginal decrease of the return is minimal from his previous floor. At worst, if you can't trade him, he's a mediocre bench player.

BC sold low too soon. I said so for the same reasons when he made the trade. Unless Youk was an immense clubhouse cancer it was a bad trade then and a bad trade now.

[LeoCarrillo]

Their baseline value for him was Stewart. Is that exactly enticing? I think we can all agree Stewart was probably Youk's floor value in a trade. Stewart is not a valuable piece for this organization - he will be lucky to be a spare part any time soon.
And even if you assume Youk would have declined even further here you should still take that risk for the chance that he rebounds and you either get more upside in a trade or you have a useful player if WMB, Gonzo, or Ortiz gets injured.
If Youk's value declines then you get a lesser prospect (or $0.20 on the dollar instead of $0.25). But the marginal decrease of the return is minimal from his previous floor. At worst, if you can't trade him, he's a mediocre bench player.

BC sold low too soon. I said so for the same reasons when he made the trade. Unless Youk was an immense clubhouse cancer it was a bad trade then and a bad trade now.

Agree with this. Just to add (first bolded) that he'd also bring a supplemental first rounder if we sat on him -- and therefore as was said earlier tough shit to his trade request and tough shit to Bobby V for picking the fight for no upside. Do what's best for the team.

So, in making the deal a month before the deadline (second bolded), Ben either panicked over the "toxicity" factor or just as likely he got orders from his boss, LL. I don't know which reflects more poorly on Cherington.

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

Wouldn't he only bring a supplemental first rounder in the event that he was offered arbitration? In what planet were the sox going to offer Youks arbitration?

Hell they traded him partly so they could save money on his buyout.

No team was going to sign Youks for a greater sum then his arb figure.

[LeoCarrillo]

Wouldn't he only bring a supplemental first rounder in the event that he was offered arbitration? In what planet were the sox going to offer Youks arbitration?
Hell they traded him partly so they could save money on his buyout.
No team was going to sign Youks for a greater sum then his arb figure.

Actually, looks like neither of us is quite right. (The new CBA is kinda confusing). I forgot about his team option, which likely affects the compensation or lack thereof. But it's not really arbitration anymore. You just have to offer him a qualifying offer -- a one-year deal that's the average of the top 125 players in the game. Which I've seen estimated at around $13M. So, in theory you'd only do if that guy was a Type-A level player, and if you tried to "steal" compensation by offering a lesser guy the qualifying offer, they'd be all over the $13M. So it balances itself.

[mfried]

Their baseline value for him was Stewart. Is that exactly enticing? I think we can all agree Stewart was probably Youk's floor value in a trade. Stewart is not a valuable piece for this organization - he will be lucky to be a spare part any time soon.
And even if you assume Youk would have declined even further here you should still take that risk for the chance that he rebounds and you either get more upside in a trade or you have a useful player if WMB, Gonzo, or Ortiz gets injured.
If Youk's value declines then you get a lesser prospect (or $0.20 on the dollar instead of $0.25). But the marginal decrease of the return is minimal from his previous floor. At worst, if you can't trade him, he's a mediocre bench player.

BC sold low too soon. I said so for the same reasons when he made the trade. Unless Youk was an immense clubhouse cancer it was a bad trade then and a bad trade now.

This was really not a trade, just a sad discard of a player who wasn't functioning well, and showed little chance of functioning well, whether for personal reasons, team attitude, or whatever. The fact that he revived as soon as he was traded is an indication that things had to happen this way. The fact that they got NOTHING in return stings but shouldn't be overemphasized.