589 replies to this topic

[Rocco Graziosa]

Lets lay it on the line. The facts are out there..............atrocities were committed by this University to protect its FOOTBALL program. So where do we go from here? What should happen to Penn State??

Since I believe those that were most involved in the cover up that are alive will spend time in jail, I am not in favor of the death penalty. (although I wouldn't shed a tear if it happened)

Strip them of bowl appearances for three years, cut scholarships for three years, no tv for three years.

Discussion points include, but are not limited to, what sanctions they should face, what jurasdiction does the NCAA have here, where do statues of limitations come into play, and how fair it is to severely punish people who had nothing to do with this.

I ask you SOSH, what should happen to the Penn State football program in the aftermath of this atrocity?

[JimBoSox9]

To paraphrase from the underrated Runaway Jury, the only way it stops is if you make them pay so much that they don't even want to go on living. It's hard not to read this as not just the utter failure of a select few to be decent human beings, but the last, horrific, inevitable stop on a train track laid by a widespread culture of corruption in college sports. It's come this far in part because of the chronic wrist-slapping 'punishments' handed out by the NCAA. If the governing body is not going to strongly discourage operating outside the rules in the name of The Program, they must publicly declare that operating outside reasonable morality is an event horizon that is lethal to cross. The last thing amateur football can afford in much of the country is to give mothers another reason not to let their sons strap on a helmet. Give the program the death penalty, and make it easy as possible for current players to transfer without eligibility penalties. Thus far, those at the state and national level who have been charged with popping this pus-filled abscess have done a credible job, it would be a shame if the final act didn't measure up.

[drleather2001]

Since I believe those that were most involved in the cover up that are alive will spend time in jail, I am not in favor of the death penalty. (although I wouldn't shed a tear if it happened)

Who involved in the cover-up is going to spend time in jail?

This isn't a college football issue. People think of it as such, and that's downplaying the severity of what happened. The reckless endangerment of kids was Penn State athletic department issue (and, frankly, that's at a bare minimum), and as such, limiting the punishment to football simply because that's the most popular sport under the athletic department is an insufficient punishment.

They should lose eligibility for all Div I programs for multiple years.

Edited by drleather2001, 15 July 2012 - 12:56 AM.

[Rasputin]

The organization engaged in a conspiracy to rape children because they thought football was more important.

If they don't get hammered then when there's a similar situation at another big program, the lesson learned will be that the coverup was worth it.

They shouldn't have any football for several years. Other sports, I dunno, but mostly because I don't think they care enough about those programs to rape children over it.

[RGREELEY33]

This isn't a college football issue. People think of it as such, and that's downplaying the severity of what happened. The reckless endangerment of kids was Penn State athletic department issue (and, frankly, that's at a bare minimum), and as such, limiting the punishment to football simply because that's the most popular sport under the athletic department is an insufficient punishment.

While I agree with your sentiment, I think that your logic applied to Spanier/Schultz/Curley could argue that it was a Penn State issue. Therefore, should you close the school down???

I was not a proponent of the death penalty for the football team until the report came out. I think exactly because football is the most popular (and more importantly, biggest revenue producer) and clearly the reason behind the coverup - it needs to be made an example of. I think the "death penalty" (not sure how it actually works) for a 5-year period probably sends the appropriate message to every school in the country with respect to the Clery Act and to senior levels of leadership in schools not worshiping at the respective altars of their athletic programs or pseudo-deistic athletic coaches.

[jose melendez]

The death penatly is the right call.

This was able to happen because not just Paterno, not just the administration, but the vast majority of the Penn State Community held football in such esteem that they WANTED a cover up. Look at the response in State College when this broke... they protected Paterno and the program to a massive fault. This is a community problem, they did awful things to protect what they loved most. The right thing to do is to take away what that which they love for a while.

Besides, a complete clean break is actually the best thing for the long term future. Football goes away for a while, it can come back as a new thing, with a real break from this shameful period.

[Royal Reader]

I think that the program should be terminated for a couple years, but would prefer this to happen at the instigation of the school administration or State of PA than the NCAA.

[Doug Beerabelli]

I don't think the death penalty is enough.

They should be forced to join the Big East Conference in football.

[Average Reds]

I don't think the NCAA will act, or at least act in a decisive way to impose the death penalty or similar sanctions. Frankly, I don;t have much regard for the NCAA in this respect, but that's another subject.

As to what should happen to Penn State, I would say that if anyone on the BoT had any kind of moral compass, they would simply end the football program. Won't happen, but it should.

[SidelineCameras]

Death penalty and the statue comes down. The man, and the school, put the safety and well being of children in danger to protect the football program. For me, it's that simple even before you get to conspiracy, perjury, and all the criminal details.

I agree with many posters who have said it may even be the best thing for the school. What network is going to put PSU on TV for the next three years even if they are playing? What away fans are going to travel to Happy Valley for a Saturday? Why does this vaunted recruiting class and Bill O'Brien want to deal with signs and taunts about pedophilia for the foreseeable future? A clean break, while extremely painful in the short term, would be the best way for the school to genuinely say out with the old and in with the new.

[bankshot1]

I think there has to be to NCAA sanctions. The institution, not just the highest ranking most powerful people at PSU, put football and all the associated benefits of a successful program ahead of kids getting raped. While the individuals responsible for this should be in jail, the institution too must be held responsible.

So while part of me says kill the program , another part says that that really doesn't accomplish a whole lot.

So let the program continue, BUT, no bowl games. So they play about 12 games a year.

They play a regular season schedule, with all revenues (this is tricky from an accounting perspective-but think big picture)
derived from football, ticket sales, tv revs, concessions parking, etc (less strictly regulated costs- associated for running the program) are donated to an approved list of child-service groups. Basically make the football program the fund-raiser for kids in need.

This sentence is for about 14 years, or the length of the cover-up.

[Average Reds]

Death penalty and the statue comes down. The man, and the school, put the safety and well being of children in danger to protect the football program. For me, it's that simple even before you get to conspiracy, perjury, and all the criminal details.

I agree with many posters who have said it may even be the best thing for the school. What network is going to put PSU on TV for the next three years even if they are playing? What away fans are going to travel to Happy Valley for a Saturday? Why does this vaunted recruiting class and Bill O'Brien want to deal with signs and taunts about pedophilia for the foreseeable future? A clean break, while extremely painful in the short term, would be the best way for the school to genuinely say out with the old and in with the new.

The bolded assumes an understanding of the media that is incorrect.

If not for TV contracts dictating media coverage, networks would be fighting over the rights to broadcast PSU's early games. And if the team did well, they would fight even harder to broadcast subsequent games.

This is why the only moral decision about stopping the program must come from within. Because the commercial pressures are all to continue/rebuild the program.

[Hendu's Gait]

Football program permanent and immediate death
statue comes down
10 year hiatus for any other revenue producing sports starting in '13-'14 (Men's basketball, maybe Women's Volleyball/bball?)
10 year ban on post-season for all sports starting in '13-14
Athletic revenue clawback for the last 5 years in all sports
Football revenue clawback for football since day 1 of the cover-up

[SidelineCameras]

The bolded assumes an understanding of the media that is incorrect.

If not for TV contracts dictating media coverage, networks would be fighting over the rights to broadcast PSU's early games. And if the team did well, they would fight even harder to broadcast subsequent games.

Who outside of PSU fans wants to watch that game for more than five minutes? Maybe a quick flip on the game out of curiosity, but what casual fan without a rooting interest in either team wants to watch that game for an extended period? And imagine trying to be the commentator for that game, what a nightmare. You can't ignore the scandal, you can't talk about it the whole game, that would be a hell of a balancing act. Too little and you seem insensitive, too much and you could sound preachy, boring, or straight up not fun TV viewing. I can't picture the broadcast fight you describe.

[DLew On Roids]

I'd like to see Penn State shut down its program for two years and reevaluate its priorities in the way SMU was forced to after its scandal in the 1980s. I'd also like to see PSU forfeit all wins going back to 2001, when the criminal conspiracy in the football program really began.

Focusing solely on PSU is a mistake, though. This could have happened--and may be happening--at any one of about 100 universities where football runs the show. I think you could literally count on one hand the number of BCS AQ schools where a cover-up wouldn't be seriously considered. I don't necessarily think the presidents are all ethically deficient, but when you put people in situations where money, prestige, and achievement are offered in exchange for looking the other way, we see over and over in all areas of human behavior that people make the wrong choices.

The real reform needs to be at the NCAA level. In a perfect world, the NCAA would eliminate athletic scholarships altogether and allow universities to fulfill their missions. That won't happen for a variety of reasons outside the scope of this conversation, but the next best thing is to create a structure that minimizes the corruption that is endemic with big-money athletic programs attached to universities. The NCAA should mandate new governing structures to deemphasize the importance of revenue-producing sports in universities' hierarchies. ADs and presidents need to see a different incentive structure, and low-level employees need to be trained to report criminality directly to police and have protections when they go outside the university bubble to call the police.

[grsharky7]

I believe they should take a year off from football. I live in PSU country and a lot of the fans here still don't get it. All of them say yes what happened to those kids was terrible, but then they say PSU has been punished enough. They will tell you the four men involved in the coverup have or will be punished, Sandusky is going to be in prison for the rest of his life, the university will be sued for millions of dollars, and Joe Paterno's legacy is destroyed. They seem to think that is enough already. I have given up arguing with many of them because like politics you are never going to convince them to change their mind, they have to do it themselves.

With that being said I truly believe they should take a year off from football, however I don't think that would break the football first culture of PSU. I think it would have the opposite effect on them and it would reinforce the culture over there. Just drawing a historical parallel to Germany post WWI. The Allies thought that the treaty at Versailles would break Germany for a long time to come and make sure they would never again be involved in a destructive war. The damages were terribly punitive and created a great deal of resentment in Germany. Eventually they saw themselves as being picked on and became incredibly nationalist. They felt the situation was unfair to them and that it was them against the world.

I believe that if PSU was forced to shutter the program for a time it would do the same thing there. PSU people already feel they are being slammed by the nation unfairly, they keep saying it was just those 4 men and Sandusky who created this mess. If you shut down that program they will feel persecuted and say it's unfair to punish the kids playing now, the current students, fans, etc who didn't actively cover anything up. All shutting down the program will do is foster resentment towards the outside world, and this is in a place that is incredibly insular already. They will have a year to sit and stew about all of this, they will not sit there and say "wow our priorities were out of whack for all of those years putting football first." They are going to say, "those bastards have taken away our first love, when we get back we will show the world what kind of team we are." They have already developed a bunker mentality this will just reinforce it. Heck donations to the school last year were the 2nd highest in history. There will still be a 100,000+ at Beaver Stadium when football comes back after an imposed penalty, it will take them a while to get back to normal on the field. However, you can be donations will go up to help finance that recovery as quick as possible.

I'm not sure there is a way to break the mentality in State College, it is so ingrained. It will be very interesting to watch what happens there over the next few months and years.

[BigSoxFan]

I don't think PSU fans will ever "get it". So many of them are delusional morons. But I'd like to see the NCAA cripple the program by banning the team from bowl games for 5-10 years and reducing their scholarships. Most 18 year-olds will want nothing to do with them if there's no chance of meaningful football. Also, the civil penalties are their punishment for what has already transpired. They all need to pay for child abuse prevention. Finally, any reference to Joe Paterno on campus should be wiped away. Statue? Gone. Streets? Re-named. Building names? Changed.

[Dernells Casket n Flagon]

To me one of the main differences in between SMU getting the death penalty and this case here is that there weren't any players involved in the Penn State coverup, whereas in the SMU they were the ones guilty of taking money. Though I'm also complete fine with it happening, though I think it would only be fair to the players to have the option to transfer without having to sit out a year.

[twhan1978]

I think there has to be to NCAA sanctions. The institution, not just the highest ranking most powerful people at PSU, put football and all the associated benefits of a successful program ahead of kids getting raped. While the individuals responsible for this should be in jail, the institution too must be held responsible.

So while part of me says kill the program , another part says that that really doesn't accomplish a whole lot.

So let the program continue, BUT, no bowl games. So they play about 12 games a year.

They play a regular season schedule, with all revenues (this is tricky from an accounting perspective-but think big picture)
derived from football, ticket sales, tv revs, concessions parking, etc (less strictly regulated costs- associated for running the program) are donated to an approved list of child-service groups. Basically make the football program the fund-raiser for kids in need.

This sentence is for about 14 years, or the length of the cover-up.

I'm surprised no one has commented on this idea yet - in my opinion it is BY FAR the best of a set of options, none of which are going to make everyone involved happy. A few reasons I think so:

• As has been noted by several posters already, I do not believe that Penn State supporters will "get" it if the penalty for this crime is to take away maybe the most beloved part of the institution; yes, Penn State royally f'ed up, but there is a legitimate argument that MOST (i.e. the fans, players, student body) parts of the institution that really love the football program had no knowledge of or involvement in this scandal. As a result, this could simply spur resentment on their part and risk allowing the punishment to become more important (to them, at least) than the crime.
• As a corollary to the previous point, I do not believe that a conventionally severe punishment (like the Death Penalty) will improve Penn State as an institution. At best, it allows the University to move past the entire situation - I'd rather the University have to live with it and learn from it for the foreseeable future.
• There is, as bankshot1 notes, the potential for the program to do tremendous good if its priorities are re-organized. Penn State is still a marquee program, regardless of this scandal - allow (force) it to put its stature to use in a way that might actually benefit others. Conventional punishments only punish; they do not compensate or, generally, rehabilitate. Put Penn State football at the front of a movement to expose and defeat child molestation/sexual abuse, forcing Penn State to live with its shame but also allowing it to make amends in a way that will actually help victims of similar actions.
• My understanding of the Death Penalty is that it is designed to punish a football program because of the way its actions have harmed other football programs. Removing scholarships and banning Penn State from post-season play benefits Penn State's football competitors (who were not harmed by Penn State's actions) for a harm inflicted on young kids - I fail to see how this is an at all appropriate response.

[GBrushTWood]

As a result of conducting a couple business trips to State College this year, I've gained slight perspective into the structure of this culture.

Here's a point to consider for the torch and pitchfork crowd: virtually the entire economic structure of State College is dependent on the Penn State football team holding 6-7 home games/year. It's essentially a city with little else going on, both culturally or economically. When those 100,000+ people come into town each year for 6-7 weekends, hotels, bars, liquor stores, restaurants, and mom & pop shops are earning the lion's share of their livelihood. I don't have statistics to support this, but it's a common anecdote from virtually everybody I work with.

Keep in mind, I'm not coming at this from a rah-rah, Nittany Lions r00l perspective (being from Boston, I couldn't give a shit less), but when crafting the framework of self-imposed or outside body sanctioned penalties, don't you have to consider this group of people economically dependent on the football program?

There needs to be a way to punish this culture of football god worshipping without turning the entire city into slum. These economically dependent people (in general) had nothing to do with the pederast rapings (i.e. - I don't buy the notion that if you run a bed & breakfast for visiting Penn State fans that you implicitly support kids getting boned in the ass).

If you get rid of the football program for even 1 year, you royally screw these people. I really don't know what the right self imposed penalty is, but I think you have to keep the games running to keep the city running.

[canderson]

I am not in favor of the death penalty. I'm of the assumption it doesn't punish anyone who was involved. Envy single person mentioned in the scandal no longer is affiliated with Penn State (sure Spanier is on staff but it's a legal / contractual reason regarding tenure and he is no where to be seen).

This to me was not about the football program itself, but more about protecting Joe Paterno's ability to raise money. He was by far the school's (if not ANY school's) best fundraiser, the school was embarking on significant campaigns around the turn of the century. Football was the mechanism but ultimately not the end reason.

I'd propose:

1) All advertising/TV/game day/whatever revenue is put toward a new PSU-backed child welfare program. Maybe they piggyback on another existing program, doesn't matter.
3) A lengthy scholarship reduction for every sport (5 years? This alone effectively kills a program now if it is long enough).
4) Hit PSU where it hurts: cut its fundraising arms and endowment to effectively work for victims of sexual assault. Create the largest organized sexual assault fundraising drive ever seen, dedicate all advertising to this effort.
5) Cap pay of any coach to match the highest-ranked tenured professor (I wish this was done everywhere actually).
6) Remove all Paterno mentions on campus and politely request (then get restapraining orders of need be) all family members to stay off campus.

PSU football has the fiscal power to help thousands upon thousands of child victims, help stop current predators by highlighting these individuals are everywhere hiding in plain sight, and use a game to insert a needed public service message to millions and millions of people across the world. I think the program can be used for a net positive instead of deleting it from history and acting like it doesn't exist.

[collings94]

Penn State can not, will not, and should not shut down it's program. I understand the sentiment of people saying that Penn St deserves to lose it's program for a few years, but it really is illogical to suggest such a thing/ Those who say that this was not the action of a few are wrong. Maybe 50 people knew about it, that is still a small percentage of the people effected in the scope of things. The kids that play football there are not responsible for the actions of those 50 and I agree with GBrush about the economic side of things. No football screws the hotels, the guy that runs the sports bar, the guy that owns the parking lot, all the people Beaver Stadium employs, etc... The adminstrators and such who knew deserve to rot in jail, bit everyone else shouldn't bear the burden of a few.

[BigSoxFan]

I am not in favor of the death penalty. I'm of the assumption it doesn't punish anyone who was involved. Envy single person mentioned in the scandal no longer is affiliated with Penn State (sure Spanier is on staff but it's a legal / contractual reason regarding tenure and he is no where to be seen).

This to me was not about the football program itself, but more about protecting Joe Paterno's ability to raise money. He was by far the school's (if not ANY school's) best fundraiser, the school was embarking on significant campaigns around the turn of the century. Football was the mechanism but ultimately not the end reason.

I'd propose:

1) All advertising/TV/game day/whatever revenue is put toward a new PSU-backed child welfare program. Maybe they piggyback on another existing program, doesn't matter.
3) A lengthy scholarship reduction for every sport (5 years? This alone effectively kills a program now if it is long enough).
4) Hit PSU where it hurts: cut its fundraising arms and endowment to effectively work for victims of sexual assault. Create the largest organized sexual assault fundraising drive ever seen, dedicate all advertising to this effort.
5) Cap pay of any coach to match the highest-ranked tenured professor (I wish this was done everywhere actually).
6) Remove all Paterno mentions on campus and politely request (then get restapraining orders of need be) all family members to stay off campus.

PSU football has the fiscal power to help thousands upon thousands of child victims, help stop current predators by highlighting these individuals are everywhere hiding in plain sight, and use a game to insert a needed public service message to millions and millions of people across the world. I think the program can be used for a net positive instead of deleting it from history and acting like it doesn't exist.

So, under your plan, Penn State is still eligible for bowl games? C'mon. Also, why would you punish the Penn State basketball team for something that they had no part in? This seems to contradict the second sentence of your post by not punishing those who were not involved.

Edited by BigSoxFan, 15 July 2012 - 11:24 AM.

[JBill]

Death penalty and the statue comes down.

That dumb statue is not coming down, at least not anytime soon:

"You can't let people stampede you into making a rash decision," a trustee said. "The statue represents the good that Joe did. It doesn't represent the bad that he did."

But privately, Peetz, board member Ken Frazier and most of the other trustees, whose leadership on the Sandusky matter as a whole was harshly criticized by the Freeh report, spoke adamantly about the need to keep the statue standing, the sources told "Outside the Lines." They said they hoped the passage of time would prove to be an ally, sources said.
The trustees "are hoping they can have more time pass and people will forget about it and then it won't come down," one trustee said.
"They don't get to tell us," the source said about members of the public clamoring for its removal. "This is a Penn State community decision."

[canderson]

So, under your plan, Penn State is still eligible for bowl games? C'mon.

I don't think they should accept invitations, should have included that.

I'm not exactly sure what it helps, though. Abd if the money goes directly toward a charity it'd help even more.

[bankshot1]

Bowl games are a reward. There should be no rewards for PSU football. None.

The football games are for the students and the alum. The town is probably like any other college town, dependent upon the school for its economic health. There is no reason to scorch Happy Valley. But don't let them forget either.

I might suggest some "sin-tax" on the hotels/bars etc, you know the innkeepers who over-charged alums/vistors for years, and who unknowingly benefitted from the 14 years of shame.

The sin-tax would go to the afore-mentioned children in need fund.

[JimBoSox9]

My understanding of the Death Penalty is that it is designed to punish a football program because of the way its actions have harmed other football programs. Removing scholarships and banning Penn State from post-season play benefits Penn State's football competitors (who were not harmed by Penn State's actions) for a harm inflicted on young kids - I fail to see how this is an at all appropriate response.

You really think that this hasn't caused tremendous harm to other NCAA football programs? This has tarnished the national brand significantly more than SMU ever did. It's not going to happen overnight, or even in ten years, but at a macro level football is teetering on the edge of no longer being the sport that our country's best athletes choose to play. Its current ascendency and billions of dollars won't save it - any boxing historian can tell you that. Fifty years ago, Ray Lewis would have been the heavyweight champion of the world. Today he's a Super Bowl champion. What will he be fifty years from now?

Keep in mind, I'm not coming at this from a rah-rah, Nittany Lions r00l perspective (being from Boston, I couldn't give a shit less), but when crafting the framework of self-imposed or outside body sanctioned penalties, don't you have to consider this group of people economically dependent on the football program?

It sucks what would happen to that area but it's BY FAR the lesser of two evils. It's that economic machine that enables leaders to go to abhorrent lengths to preserve it, and thinking they're doing the right thing to boot. If the local economy cannot survive without this cancer, then the local economy should die. I frankly don't want to hear any crap about people's lives being affected by that death. Hundreds of lives have been decimated by this atrocity in a way that no economic troubles could come close to matching, and everyone involved owes it to the victims to be as harsh as necessary to ensure that this never, ever happens again.

[pedros hairstylist]

As a result of conducting a couple business trips to State College this year, I've gained slight perspective into the structure of this culture.

Here's a point to consider for the torch and pitchfork crowd: virtually the entire economic structure of State College is dependent on the Penn State football team holding 6-7 home games/year. It's essentially a city with little else going on, both culturally or economically. When those 100,000+ people come into town each year for 6-7 weekends, hotels, bars, liquor stores, restaurants, and mom & pop shops are earning the lion's share of their livelihood. I don't have statistics to support this, but it's a common anecdote from virtually everybody I work with.

Keep in mind, I'm not coming at this from a rah-rah, Nittany Lions r00l perspective (being from Boston, I couldn't give a shit less), but when crafting the framework of self-imposed or outside body sanctioned penalties, don't you have to consider this group of people economically dependent on the football program?

There needs to be a way to punish this culture of football god worshipping without turning the entire city into slum. These economically dependent people (in general) had nothing to do with the pederast rapings (i.e. - I don't buy the notion that if you run a bed & breakfast for visiting Penn State fans that you implicitly support kids getting boned in the ass).

If you get rid of the football program for even 1 year, you royally screw these people. I really don't know what the right self imposed penalty is, but I think you have to keep the games running to keep the city running.

No, you don't have to consider those people and businesses. That's life. You have a business built solely upon football home games, then you have a shitty business. Every small business owner that depends on tourism, the weather, or piggybacking off of some other entity that they don't control takes the risk of losing business if things change dramatically. If they don't want to be dependent on outside sources to survive, then they come up with a better business model. Nobody is owed success.


Punishing the school financially is the ONLY way to get their attention that "football first" is a terrible and dare I say "inhumane" way to run a university. If the community had shown revulsion and anger at those involved in these crimes, maybe you could do something less draconian, but as others have said, they haven't and they still don't get it. You have to hit them where it hurts and that's football and money.

[pedros hairstylist]

Also, that BOT idiot Karen Peetz should really STFU. Her quotes over the last couple days in the NYT stories are absolutely ridiculous.

[twhan1978]

You really think that this hasn't caused tremendous harm to other NCAA football programs? This has tarnished the national brand significantly more than SMU ever did. It's not going to happen overnight, or even in ten years, but at a macro level football is teetering on the edge of no longer being the sport that our country's best athletes choose to play. Its current ascendency and billions of dollars won't save it - any boxing historian can tell you that. Fifty years ago, Ray Lewis would have been the heavyweight champion of the world. Today he's a Super Bowl champion. What will he be fifty years from now?

Really? I could be way off base on this, but I really don't think this will tarnish the national brand of college football at all. Concussions? They may. But what 99% of the population thinks (and which may be) is a series of actions and a scandal limited to one FBS university? I doubt it. If TV ratings are down this Fall, I will absolutely yield on this, but I don't think the NATIONAL brand of college football suffers too much, it at all, from this scandal. Penn State brand, yes.

[Frank McBain]

wrong thread

Edited by Frank McBain, 15 July 2012 - 01:57 PM.

[BigMike]

Part of me would like to see the death penalty, but it won't hapen.

But I think you need STRONG penalties.

Something like no bowl games for 3-5 years.

No home games for 2 years, and then no non conference home games for 3 more after that. I really strongly believe this is the punishment that is both realistic, doesn't destroy the program, BUT really hurts and punishes the football is god mentality in that area.

Plus the loss of scholarships, and some system in place to funnel money from the athletic program to charities supporting children, say basically their share of Big 10 bowl money for 5 years goes to charity, as well as probably a 20-50 million dollar trust set up for Sandusky's victims.

[Wings]

I think what make the most sense and is win-win enough is this:

1) Cut scholarships
2) Allow players to transfer
3) 100% of PSU revenue goes to charity/child abuse/support for X amount of time (see idea mentioned above).

People will show up to the games no matter who is on the field I imagine or even if the football team stinks. PSU needs to pay and to be hit where it hurts for a long time. Well, this hurts them financially but it also provides a benefit to a good cause (the charities). This doesn't kill the town (who will likely only become more resentful and feel unfair that their businesses were destroyed) by shutting down the program.


As to what will happen, who knows.

[Rocco Graziosa]

I think what make the most sense and is win-win enough is this:

1) Cut scholarships
2) Allow players to transfer
3) 100% of PSU revenue goes to charity/child abuse/support for X amount of time (see idea mentioned above).

People will show up to the games no matter who is on the field I imagine or even if the football team stinks. PSU needs to pay and to be hit where it hurts for a long time. Well, this hurts them financially but it also provides a benefit to a good cause (the charities). This doesn't kill the town (who will likely only become more resentful and feel unfair that their businesses were destroyed) by shutting down the program.


As to what will happen, who knows.

If the program does not receive the death penalty (and I don't think it will) I really like your #2 and #3. It would be interesting to see if players did a mass exodus out of the school if given the opportunity to do so. I know I wouldn't want to be associated with Penn State these days.

Add to your 1, 2 and 3 to this and I'm 100% on board:

Part of me would like to see the death penalty, but it won't hapen.

But I think you need STRONG penalties.

Something like no bowl games for 3-5 years.

No home games for 2 years, and then no non conference home games for 3 more after that. I really strongly believe this is the punishment that is both realistic, doesn't destroy the program, BUT really hurts and punishes the football is god mentality in that area.

Plus the loss of scholarships, and some system in place to funnel money from the athletic program to charities supporting children, say basically their share of Big 10 bowl money for 5 years goes to charity, as well as probably a 20-50 million dollar trust set up for Sandusky's victims.

Edited by Rocco Graziosa, 15 July 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[bosoxsue]

I really like the No. 3 proposed by Wing also, but I think a bunch of adults who can't be trusted to report child rape also can't be trusted not to "misdirect" a sizable amount of the vast sums of money that are involved in hosting a D-1 football game. And as you all have said, money is what will make these people learn their lesson the hard way. They just can't be trusted, unless some sort of independent auditor sees every dime of the cash that's moving through the till.

[bankshot1]

I really like the No. 3 proposed by Wing also, but I think a bunch of adults who can't be trusted to report child rape also can't be trusted not to "misdirect" a sizable amount of the vast sums of money that are involved in hosting a D-1 football game. And as you all have said, money is what will make these people learn their lesson the hard way. They just can't be trusted, unless some sort of independent auditor sees every dime of the cash that's moving through the till.

As originally proposed the football revenues and expenses were to be "strictly regulated", presumably by an independent party with a fiduciary responsibility only to the children's charitable funds

[Comfortably Lomb]

As to what should happen to Penn State, I would say that if anyone on the BoT had any kind of moral compass, they would simply end the football program. Won't happen, but it should.

Why hurt the fans? This is about the people in charge who allowed this to happen. One is dead and another is in jail but there are more at fault I'm sure. Hold the threat of a death sentence to the entire athletic program over the school in exchange for the NCAA being able to investigate and root out the rest and ban them from any role in the NCAA for life but all this talk of just knocking the programs with no real goal is IMO just targeting the fans. What the heck did they do wrong?

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

They are not getting the death penalty, so people can forget that. The death penalty is for repeat offenders, and this isn't a repeat offense.

That being said, I would like to see the NCAA do four things: (i) no bowl appearances; (ii) no television appearances; (iii) cut scholarships; and (iv) allow transfers to leave immediately and play somewhere else without having to wait. I'd like to see this for five years.

That being said, if I had to guess, NCAA will simply eliminate one or two bowl games and hope that is enough.

What network is going to put PSU on TV for the next three years even if they are playing? What away fans are going to travel to Happy Valley for a Saturday? Why does this vaunted recruiting class and Bill O'Brien want to deal with signs and taunts about pedophilia for the foreseeable future?

Every one, every one, and because PSU and BOB gives the players the best chance (in their minds) of getting to the NFL. I mean I don't know for a fact but I presume the facilites at PSU are pretty freaking awesome. . . .

[JayMags71]

Why hurt the fans?

... all this talk of just knocking the programs with no real goal is IMO just targeting the fans. What the heck did they do wrong?

The fans need to learn a little perspective, that's why. Enough of them acted like spoiled children when Paterno was removed, that they need their toys taken away for some time.

Edited by JayMags71, 15 July 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[Comfortably Lomb]

The fans need to learn a little perspective, that's why. Enough of them acted like spoiled children when Paterno was removed, that they need their toys taken away for some time.

Okay, mom.

[bosoxsue]

Why hurt the fans? This is about the people in charge who allowed this to happen. One is dead and another is in jail but there are more at fault I'm sure. Hold the threat of a death sentence to the entire athletic program over the school in exchange for the NCAA being able to investigate and root out the rest and ban them from any role in the NCAA for life but all this talk of just knocking the programs with no real goal is IMO just targeting the fans. What the heck did they do wrong?

Couldn't you make this very same argument about any NCAA sanctions involving any program anywhere? It wasn't the fault of fans in Dallas when SMU had a slush fund going for players, was it? And the gray area involved in paying players who generate tons of money for NCAA institutions is a whole lot more debatable than what went on in Happy Valley.

[BigSoxFan]

Couldn't you make this very same argument about any NCAA sanctions involving any program anywhere? It wasn't the fault of fans in Dallas when SMU had a slush fund going for players, was it?

Yes, you can, which is why that logic is horribly flawed.

[Infield Infidel]

I'd propose:

1) All advertising/TV/game day/whatever revenue is put toward a new PSU-backed child welfare program. Maybe they piggyback on another existing program, doesn't matter.
3) A lengthy scholarship reduction for every sport (5 years? This alone effectively kills a program now if it is long enough).
4) Hit PSU where it hurts: cut its fundraising arms and endowment to effectively work for victims of sexual assault. Create the largest organized sexual assault fundraising drive ever seen, dedicate all advertising to this effort.
5) Cap pay of any coach to match the highest-ranked tenured professor (I wish this was done everywhere actually).
6) Remove all Paterno mentions on campus and politely request (then get restapraining orders of need be) all family members to stay off campus.

PSU football has the fiscal power to help thousands upon thousands of child victims, help stop current predators by highlighting these individuals are everywhere hiding in plain sight, and use a game to insert a needed public service message to millions and millions of people across the world. I think the program can be used for a net positive instead of deleting it from history and acting like it doesn't exist.

I like where you are going with the bolded. I think there needs to be positive actions by the university, to go along with some penalties

Penalties
1. No non-conference games for 2 seasons. This hits them in the pocket w/o penalizing the schools that normally play them. School must buyout all games that are canceled. This alone is probably a $40-50 million penalty.
2. No bowls for 2 seasons
3. Limit the number of football coaches. Three to four fewer coaches for 3-4 years.
4. Students in any sport can transfer w/o having to sit out a year
5. NCAA oversight staffer embedded in the PSU athletic department for 5 years (they should do this for all schools that receive penalties)
6. Any coach with knowledge of criminal activities is barred from college coaching for 5 years.

Good things they can do
1. A solid chunk of athletics income go to fund a child welfare program. 10-20% the first couple years, and 5% every year there after.
2. Children are free for at least one football game per year, and for all games for all non-football sports
3. Increase funding for the Social Work program at the school, and do whatever they can to make it a premier program in the field.

Edited by Infield Infidel, 15 July 2012 - 09:01 PM.

[maufman]

(Please indulge me in a little digression; I promise to bring this back on topic.)

We now know that Joe Paterno had contemporaneous knowledge of the 1998 investigation of Sandusky. We also now know that Paterno pushed Sandusky out of the program rather unceremoniously around that time, for reasons unrelated to his predilection for young boys. Therefore, we can now confidently dismiss two theories that were making the rounds prior to the Freeh report -- (1) that Paterno protected Sandusky because he had dirt on Paterno, and (2) that Paterno had warm feelings for Sandusky that kept him from doing the right thing. The facts show that Paterno was perfectly willing to toss Sandusky aside when it served his purposes, without fear of reprisal.

So, why did Paterno protect Sandusky in 2001?

There is a widespread assumption that Paterno was bulletproof in Happy Valley. That assumption is false -- it has been widely reported that Paterno barely survived an attempt by some Trustees to oust him in 2004. By 2001, with PSU was coming off a 5-7 season and four years removed from its last major bowl berth, the currents that led to that failed ouster attempt were almost certainly stirring. If Paterno had called the police immediately and ordered Mike McQueary to tell them exactly what he saw, it would have become clear in the ensuing media circus that Paterno had known of Sandusky's proclivities three years earlier and had done nothing. Paterno's poor judgment would have emboldened his opponents on campus; even if he somehow survived the immediate fallout, the damage done to his ability to recruit would surely have spelled the end of his tenure. Paterno had to know all this.

Paterno acted as he did not because he felt he was invincible, but because he felt vulnerable.

As nice as it is to pretend that Penn State is a uniquely diabolical place, this could have happened anywhere.

Indeed, with the exception of Spanier, I can see these men acting as they did even outside the context of a big-time sports program. Coaches like Paterno who are ambitious, ego-driven, and ethically challenged are hardly a rare breed. Like Paterno, Schultz was compromised by his prior silence. As for Curley, inept men who fall ass-backwards into success are all too willing to compromise their morals to protect their undeserved status.

These men knew they would lose their careers if their ruse was discovered. They probably didn't contemplate going to jail or losing their fortunes, though. I think it's vital that the individuals involved suffer as much as possible for what happened. I'm not terribly optimistic that the AG's office will win any convictions, but they must fight the good fight. Likewise, I hope and expect that the victims and their families will hound these men (and Paterno's estate) with lawsuits to the ends of the earth. They deserve nothing less. If their fate deters someone from making a similar decision in the future, so much the better.

Most of the posts here seem focused on punishing PSU's fans. Paterno's cult of personality in central PA is maddening, for sure, but it didn't cause any kids to be molested. Those fans have fouled the reputation of the institution they profess to love; that's punishment enough for them.

In a perfect world, the U.S. Department of Education would drop the hammer on PSU, threatening to cut off all federal funding to the school. Such a cut-off would not (and should not) actually happen, but the threat of such an action could coerce PSU into accepting a consent order that would require them to make thoroughgoing changes to the university's culture -- from better governance, to more robust compliance practices, to more effective law enforcement, to better support for sexual assault victims, and so on. Such a program would ideally become a model for other schools to follow. Incidentally, the intense federal scrutiny would make it difficult for PSU to make the garden-variety compromises that are commonly made in support of a big-time athletics program, resulting in less successful (and hence de-emphasized) sports program. Indeed, such a regimen of "punishment' would lift up PSU, rather than tearing it down, and would make the institution more focused on its core objectives.

Of course, there is zero chance this will happen.

Any punishment the NCAA metes out will be inadequate from a punitive standpoint, and will not promote reform. I would rather have the NCAA punt and declare that they lack jurisdiction than hand down a trivial punishment and assert that justice has somehow been done.

[Hendu's Gait]

They are not getting the death penalty, so people can forget that. The death penalty is for repeat offenders, and this isn't a repeat offense.

So you're using the defense that a continuous coverup conspiracy (of over a decade) should be treated lighter because the principals in the cover-up weren't told midway through that protecting child molesters wasn't ok?

It's a conspiracy. Repetitive by definition.

[singaporesoxfan]

Even if it's unfair, how much of a punishment is the NCAA death penalty for fans anyway? Oh, they won't get to see their favourite team play. Boo hoo. Professional sports leagues have gone on strike and that's been miserable for fans, but people have always found other things to do.

[Rasputin]

Even if it's unfair, how much of a punishment is the NCAA death penalty for fans anyway? Oh, they won't get to see their favourite team play. Boo hoo. Professional sports leagues have gone on strike and that's been miserable for fans, but people have always found other things to do.

I'm guessing you live in or at least near, a city.

It's really simple. The people who made the decisions they did, made those decisions because at some level, they thought the fans cared more about football than raped children. The fans are at the root of his problem and the only way to make the point to them is to deprive them of what they are fans of.

[Reverend]

Why hurt the fans? This is about the people in charge who allowed this to happen. One is dead and another is in jail but there are more at fault I'm sure. Hold the threat of a death sentence to the entire athletic program over the school in exchange for the NCAA being able to investigate and root out the rest and ban them from any role in the NCAA for life but all this talk of just knocking the programs with no real goal is IMO just targeting the fans. What the heck did they do wrong?

Did you read the Rolling Stone piece?

I agree with much of what maufman said, but I also want to live in a world where people must confront that this stuff happens, that what happened at PSU is in fact par for the course regarding sex crimes, and that we stop pretending that these problems persist because of a few bad eggs but that there we have a pervasive, structural, cultural problem. I want a reckoning.

I also want a pony.

Edit: The punished enough stuff really baffled me. What is the punishment? Loss of reputation, of the feeling of pride?

Losing something that was not rightfully yours is not punishment. Anyone who thinks it, to me, by definition has not come to grips with things which, in fact, proves the opposite.

Edited by Reverend, 16 July 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[Infield Infidel]

I'm guessing you live in or at least near, a city.

It's really simple. The people who made the decisions they did, made those decisions because at some level, they thought the fans cared more about football than raped children. The fans are at the root of his problem and the only way to make the point to them is to deprive them of what they are fans of.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think, as mauf alluded to upthread, that Spanier, Paterno, et al, covered everything up to protect their asses, less the program. Paterno was under heat, Spanier and Curley were basically answering to him; if Paterno is gone, so are they; certainly in Curley's case and probably in Spanier's. When Spanier said he talked to Paterno, Paterno could have said "we could all lose our jobs over this." That's certainly a lack of institutional control, to have the president and AD answering to the coach, but, again, that doesn't have anything to do with the fans.

It had little to do with the perception of the program. If they get out in front of this, then people are weirded out by the fact that a coach sexually abused kids, but at least they caught him the first time it came to their attention. Maybe even in 2001, if they catch Sandusky they can say, "well the authorities didn't press charges in 1998, but this time we got him." Again, people would certainly be weirded out, but the program isn't damaged at all, because Paterno/Spanier et all took appropriate actions, despite the fact that it could damage their careers. That would have been honorable. They didn't want to risk that, completely out of self-preservation.

This could have happened at Alaska-Anchorage, or any other minor program, and it would be the same thing.

Edited by Infield Infidel, 16 July 2012 - 02:24 AM.

[pedroia'sboys]

Dont think this has been mentioned yet, but man this sucks for Bill Obrien. I don't think he would of taken the job if he had known all of this.