188 replies to this topic

[Foulkey Reese]

This is pretty ugly stuff, but I think it's gotta be mostly credible coming from Edes.

Here's a sample as there is a lot in this story.

• Tuck keeps his communication with Valentine to a minimum. He is known to walk past the manager without so much as a hello.

• The team traded away Kevin Youkilis, one of the pillars of a team that won the World Series, a veteran who made no pretense of his deep dislike for the manager after the manager publicly questioned his commitment. Youkilis went to the Chicago White Sox and immediately began performing at the highest level, while teammates left behind privately grumble about his treatment.

• David Ortiz publicly stated his support recently for the manager, but another respected player on the team said privately that it was all for show. That same player has gone weeks without speaking to Valentine and said that the manager does not have the support of "anyone" in the clubhouse. That is likely an exaggeration -- another veteran told a friend he has come around on the manager after initially being shocked at his hire -- but Valentine told associates that he knows he is being bad-mouthed in the clubhouse and is at a loss to understand why.

• Valentine frequently appears ill-informed about the team's injuries and rehabbing players, in part because it probably shouldn't be the manager's job to impart that information publicly (in Minnesota, Twins GM Terry Ryan tells reporters to come to him with injury-related questions), and partly because there is some friction in the organization, according to sources both inside and outside the team, regarding the amount of authority head physical therapist Mike Reinold exercises. Even though he ostensibly was demoted from head trainer, Reinold appears to have won a power struggle last year with the team's former medical director, Dr. Thomas Gill, who is no longer involved with the ballclub, and there is some feeling within the organization that there is insufficient urgency to get rehabbing players back in action.

http://espn.go.com/b...-all-directions

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Well that article will calm things down nicely as the second half gets underway.

What a complete mess. Hey guys, maybe firing Francona wasn't the smartest idea you've ever had.

It sure reads like the blame for this should be applied to everyone: Players, Coaches, and Manager. The organizational communications appear to be completely broken.

[yecul]

Sjh with the first reply. Who saw that coming?

I hope thy can BC and hire Steve Phillips. Then the transformation will be complete.


This is a fuck up on so many levels. no communication. Fractured loyalties or lack thereof. No chain of command whatsoever. The medical and training systrm remains as broken ad ever.

To think that they were better off and better run in September of 2011. Just process that for a minute.

Luckily there is mo rational reason that they aren't clearly super awesome and the hands down favorite to not only make the playoffs but win the work series so hard that the entire league shuts down.

All is well. It is because we say so.

[NomarRS05]

There's been enough smoke to lead one to believe that this is a pretty rotten clubhouse environment. Pretty ironic that a former ESPN pundit like Valentine ultimately seems like a terrible communicator so far when it comes to his staff and players.

Whatever, I'm sure Ellsbury's return will solve it all!

[someoneanywhere]

The troubling thing to me is that the disconnect exists at the upper levels, in the ranks of the coaches. I don't know how anyone could be surprised by that, given how the hiring went down, and how determined the brass was to keep certain guys both in the aftermath of the Tito canning and the Theo compensation talks. I don't read this to mean that the clubhouse is toxic in the sense that Olney meant it. The players apparently like each other about as well as people will (or won't) in any workplace, and as Edes suggests, the dynamics may actually make for a certain team unity.

FWIW, there is no doubt in my mind that the "respected" player who hasn't spoken to V in months, but who spoke privately to Edes, is Pedroia. i say that on gut, yes, but mine is also the gut of a former journalist. It is not uncommon for a writer to immediately identify his private source by reference to a public and indubitable identifier -- in this case, the placement of Pedey's refusal to come to the mound immediately after the reference to the "respected player." [Note Edes did not say "veteran," another trick of the trade -- this gives Pedey some cover.]

On the other hand, this is pro ball. Whatever sense of team culture exists won't last if the ship lilts. If they don't stay in it through August, the most brutal stretch, this is going to get really, really ugly.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

This is the one thing that really drew my attention:

McClure goes to the mound to visit only certain pitchers, while Valentine usually has taken it upon himself to visit the younger pitchers. Valentine has told associates that, at times, McClure tells him little of what was said at the mound; McClure acknowledged that was true, but anytime there was something of significance to report, he always did.

For whatever reason, it's not something that I've noticed, but does, indeed, seem strange. Admittedly, I don't watch a ton of non-Sox baseball, but my impression is that it's the pitching coach who usually goes out for visits, and the manager only comes out for pitching changes.

Is Valentine one of very few managers who comes out just to have conversations with pitchers?

Also, how does the "McClure tells him little of what was said at the mound" work? Valentine asks, "hey, how's he doing out there?" and McClure stays mute? The whole "he doesn't talk to me!" thing always seems awfully passive-aggressive to me. If you want someone to talk to you, ask them a question, right?

Considering the under-performance of the starting pitching, and the first inning woes in particular, I think McClure does deserve some attention here.

[Rudy Pemberton]

So, who's the leak?

It seems pretty clear here, that going forward, the GM should be allowed to hire the manager he wants, who should then be allowed to hire the coaching staff he wants. Crazy stuff, I know, but waiting so god damn long to hire the manager made it impossible for Valentine to have guys who were loyal to him. No matter what you think of Bobby, given the situation, having a staff with Tito loyalists, the best available guys from the scrap heap, and guys like Tuck who wanted out, was setting him up for a disaster.

As far as the players go, they really only have themselves to blame for getting Tito fired, so I don't really have any sympathy for them not liking their manager (and I'm not sure what to think of Youkilis's return to form immediately after a trade).

If anything, guess we can finally put aside the silly notion that this organization is so much smarter than any other. Perhaps everyone involved believing their shit didn't stink is what got us in this mess.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 13 July 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[LeoCarrillo]

The article highlights poor communication in two areas -- 1. V and players, and 2. V and coaches.

Given his zing of Youk, Pedroia's return fire and the few more examples (Gonzo, Papi) from the typically dependable Edes, it sure seems that the manager has failed to connect with his players. That's part of his job, one in which Tito specialized, and that's on V.

I have a harder time demonizing V for a lack of communication with McClure (and by extension Tuck). If this team had good starting pitching, we'd be on pace to win 100. Maybe V's right in questioning McClure's performance. Of course, it's hard to know who started/escalated the frostiness, but who cares really? They're both grownups paid to get results. The "ace" starters are performing below their career norms. V should be on McClure. Of course, maybe he should just get him canned already and plug in his guy Randy Niemann if that's who he trusts.

[glennhoffmania]

This is hardly surprising. In my opinion two things are pretty clear: 1)hiring Bobby was a huge mistake; and 2)Ben wasn't ready to take control of a team. Both of those things happening at the same time created an awful situation that needs to be fixed immediately.

[4 6 3 DP]

McClure was gone for three weeks dealing with a family situation involving an infant son and acknowledges that he had no contact with Valentine during that time. "But that was because 24/7 we were dealing with an emergency situation," McClure said.

It is implausible that in even the most horrific of emergency situations that an employee would not contact his employer for 3 weeks. We've all been there, you dip into the hallway and make a quick call when you're updating friends/family/employer. So who with the Red Sox does McClure work for?

If I was John Henry I'd be completely irate at this.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

So, who's the leak?

It seems pretty clear here, that going forward, the GM should be allowed to hire the manager he wants, who should then be allowed to hire the coaching staff he wants. Crazy stuff, I know, but waiting so god damn long to hire the manager made it impossible for Valentine to have guys who were loyal to him. No matter what you think of Bobby, given the situation, having a staff with Tito loyalists, the best available guys from the scrap heap, and guys like Tuck who wanted out, was setting him up for a disaster.

As far as the players go, they really only have themselves to blame for getting Tito fired, so I don't really have any sympathy for them not liking their manager (and I'm not sure what to think of Youkilis's return to form immediately after a trade).

If anything, guess we can finally put aside the silly notion that this organization is so much smarter than any other. Perhaps everyone involved believing their shit didn't stink is what got us in this mess.

Well, this is kind of the end result when the new GM is publicly neutered by ownership by having his choice for manager get rejected and essentially told who to hire in round 2 of the managerial interviews.

How much authority does Cherington really have? After all, Valentine was Lucchino's choice, and Edes in the article states that Luchhino thinks Valentine is doing an outstanding job (big surprise there). If Cherington actually wanted to make a managerial switch due to the issues highlighted in the article, would he be allowed to do so? My take on it is "no," in which case it's really Lucchino's club now.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

And this to me is the most interesting thing of all:

The big question, of course, is how much the team's communication issues and apparent lack of solidarity impact the team's performance.
"You have to establish relationships," explained another manager, who has heard some of the reports of disharmony in the Sox clubhouse. "Then you have to establish trust. Only then can you start to criticize. If you skip a test, they tune you out. And yes, it can affect how your team plays."

Sounds like a direct reaction to the Youkilis situation back in April.

[yecul]

It is absurd to blame a single individual in bv for a top to bottom systemic issue.

If anything this article vindicates bv as much as it damns him.

Deep rooted issues that will dog them for a long time because it starts at the top and firing bv won't change that.

[glennhoffmania]

Who is saying the whole thing is only Bobby's fault?

[Rudy Pemberton]

And this to me is the most interesting thing of all:



Sounds like a direct reaction to the Youkilis situation back in April.

Certainly fair; but you can't build trust when your GM didn't want you, and at least half your coaches don't want to be working with you either, or when the players are openly defying you. What a fucking shit show.

Smartest guys in the room! Too bad no one is writing a book about this year's team; but all the authors seemed to lose interest in the organization a few years ago (perhaps around the same time Theo did).

[NomarRS05]

This is hardly surprising. In my opinion two things are pretty clear: 1)hiring Bobby was a huge mistake; and 2)Ben wasn't ready to take control of a team. Both of those things happening at the same time created an awful situation that needs to be fixed immediately.

It all falls on ownership, doesn't it? It seems like Cherington was circumvented in the decision to hire a new manager, so who knows how much say he really has in anything? I'm not sure when this ownership group turned into baseball's version of Daniel Snyder, but it's hard to fix anything until that problem is addressed.

[glennhoffmania]

Certainly fair; but you can't build trust when your GM didn't want you, and at least half your coaches don't want to be working with you either, or when the players are openly defying you. What a fucking shit show.

Smartest guys in the room! Too bad no one is writing a book about this year's team; but all the authors seemed to lose interest in the organization a few years ago (perhaps around the same time Theo did).

Do you believe that the coaches don't want to work with him and the players don't want to listen to him for no reason other than he's not Tito? It has nothing to do with the fact that he's an ass?

[TomRicardo]

I know everyone wants to beat the Bobby V drum but I really think that is the second story there.

We have the most injured team in baseball and reading the article shows that the medical staff in awful light.

Edited by TomRicardo, 13 July 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[bschase2]

They're both grownups paid to get results.

This is what it comes down to. The idea that 6 months into this players/management/ownership are still so upset that they are letting it get in the way of performance is just maddening. I can understand when things change being upset. Esp if it seems unwarranted from your point of view. However, at some point it is time to simply move on. I know in essence that these are big kids playing a game, but there must be some sort of maturity in there somewhere. I don't remember a year I have enjoyed less than this one, and it has little to do with actual baseball.

[rembrat]

I know everyone wants to beat the Bobby V drum but I really think that is the second story there.

We have the most injured team in baseball and reading the article shows that the medical staff in awful light.

How the fuck does that happen? We're like a few seasons removed from the Papelbon/shoulder strength test story that put the medical staff on the map.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Do you believe that the coaches don't want to work with him and the players don't want to listen to him for no reason other than he's not Tito? It has nothing to do with the fact that he's an ass?

I have no clue. Many of these players are the same guys who turned out TIto (who is "not an ass", right?)

I'm more concerned about the coaches; if the players realize the coaches aren't on the same page, it's a lot easier to tune out the manager.

I assume Tuck wanted to go to the Yankees; the Sox denied it. McClure was hired before Bobby, seems he was forced to name him pitching coach (I assume he wanted Niemann). Where was McClure when he took two weeks off? Why is he only visiting certain pitchers and not communicating to his manager? Seems disrespectful. Why isn't Cherington stepping in?

I'd assume Bogar and Magadan are Tito loyalists, but who knows. Ochoa and Royster, don't really know. Ochoa has been in the org awhile, I guess Royster could be a Bobby guy.

Bobby is probably an ass...but he'd also probably be a better manager if he was allowed to hire his own staff (especially given the problems the organization had which led to him being hired). In the absence of that, he needs support from the front office. If he's not going to get that, they should fire him and try again with someone else.

[C4CRVT]

I'm getting pretty fed up with this bullcrap. But what are we supposed to do about it? I don't really want to stop paying attention just becasue it's now apparent that the team that I root for is run by a bunch of bufoons.

I've been waiting out the Bobby V situation and I'm ready to make my call. He's a jackass.

What on earth can we do to fix the problem?

[InstantKarmma]

I think the "coaches being Tito loyalists" bit is overblown. Coaches change uniforms and by extension managers, frequently in their careers. Not every manager/coach relationship is LaRussa/Duncan.

If the current crop of Sox coaches aren't communicating with V, it likely has little to do with them being Tito Loyalists and more to do with toxic atmosphere in the organization from the top down.

[Return of the Dewey]

For those of you old enough to remember, this seems like a reboot of the 1980 Yankee teams, with LL playing the role of Steinbrenner. I half expect Tito to be hired back mid-season like Billy Martin.

[glennhoffmania]

I have no clue. Many of these players are the same guys who turned out TIto (who is "not an ass", right?)

I'm more concerned about the coaches; if the players realize the coaches aren't on the same page, it's a lot easier to tune out the manager.

I assume Tuck wanted to go to the Yankees; the Sox denied it. McClure was hired before Bobby, seems he was forced to name him pitching coach (I assume he wanted Niemann). Where was McClure when he took two weeks off? Why is he only visiting certain pitchers and not communicating to his manager? Seems disrespectful. Why isn't Cherington stepping in?

I'd assume Bogar and Magadan are Tito loyalists, but who knows. Ochoa and Royster, don't really know. Ochoa has been in the org awhile, I guess Royster could be a Bobby guy.

Bobby is probably an ass...but he'd also probably be a better manager if he was allowed to hire his own staff (especially given the problems the organization had which led to him being hired). In the absence of that, he needs support from the front office. If he's not going to get that, they should fire him and try again with someone else.

I agree with a lot of this, which is why I don't pin all of the blame on Bobby. The organization (Ben? Larry?) screwed up with the coaching situation. Ben doesn't seem to be handling the responsibility of damage control very well. Larry needs to shut up. The players need to play regardless of who's in charge. There's plenty of blame to go around. But there have been stories since the start of ST about Bobby rubbing people the wrong way, alienating people, making stupid comments, not being fully prepared, etc. He's the on field leader and he needs to be accountable. When you're able to (allegedly) piss off Pedroia, Lester, Ortiz and Youkilis to the point of him wanting out during half a baseball season, something's wrong.

[drtooth]

It comes down to "who is running this ship?". Valentine was not Ben's choice, but BV didn't pick all his own coaches. I am sure LL is pushing the entire "not sellers" trade deadline mantra. The fish rots from the head down as it looks like there is still the power struggle between LL and the GM. Different GM, same story.

[lexrageorge]

Assistant coaches work for the manager. Period. If they are refusing to communicate the important details (what was said on the mound, who's too sick to play, etc.), just because of some petty sense of loyalty to Francona, then that's insubordination, and they should be fired. There are plenty of qualified folks who would jump at the chance to be the next pitching coach or bench coach of the Boston Red Sox.

Valentine should have been allowed to select his own staff, and go from there.

[TheShynessClinic]

The Red Sox have become a less likeable version of the Natinals.

I can't wait to see Elsbury in uniform tonight.

[Laschelle Tarver]

^{Someone made the point above that communication is a two way street. If you're not getting the answers you want, stop sitting around passively waiting to be talked to and go ask them the fucking questions direct. This is maddening and completely avoidable. It's like a bad TV show.}

Edited by Laschelle Tarver, 13 July 2012 - 09:03 AM.

[Al Zarilla]

Of course, Buster Olney weighed in on the situation on ESPN2 this morning. Said it's all building and will be a Krakatoa level of explosion at some point down the line. One other thing he mentioned was that people are skipping management levels when complaining. He didn't go into more detail, but players or coaches are taking their problems to Cherington, or higher instead of Valentine? That sounds really bad. He also said it could all come together with the returning key guys, Ells, Buch, Craw, and could still be a 1977 or 1978 Yankees. Yeah, right. My own observation from very far away (games on TV): BV is beginning to look like a beaten man; doesn't seem to show any confidence or bravado any more in the dugout.

[geoduck no quahog]

My guess the source is "another manager, who has heard some of the reports of disharmony..."

My guess is, with the Rays coming to town, that other manager is Maddon.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Here's the thing, though. If Cherington supports Valentine, then players and coaches don't go to Cherington to complain about him. Whether Cherington wanted Bobby or not is irrelevant; the decision was made to hire him, and at that point he needs to support his hire. If the decision to hire Valentine was so against his philosophy that he couldn't support him, I think he should have stepped down.

We've seen how this ends. A manager can't survive without support from the front office.

[Laschelle Tarver]

My guess the source is "another manager, who has heard some of the reports of disharmony..."

My guess is, with the Rays coming to town, that other manager is Maddon.

That was my first thought as well. I am sure he was more than accomodating in providing an off the record quote on how perfectly he would have handled everything. I am so sick of all of this, and pin it on the ownership/Lucchino more than anyone else. As for Bobby V, I don't like him and have not from the get go, but at this point I want him to at least go down swinging if all of this stuff is happening (rather than sitting on the end of the bench with his legs crossed, chewing his gum at 652 miles per hour).

[BrooklynDog45]

So when do they fire Bobby V and hire Tek? Let's make the baby ballplayers happy and see what happens. Tek would be coming in with same level of experience as Ventura did (none) and great knowledge of players. It will never happen but would create excitement if it did.

[dcmissle]

Of course, Buster Olney weighed in on the situation on ESPN2 this morning. Said it's all building and will be a Krakatoa level of explosion at some point down the line. One other thing he mentioned was that people are skipping management levels when complaining. He didn't go into more detail, but players or coaches are taking their problems to Cherington, or higher instead of Valentine? That sounds really bad. He also said it could all come together with the returning key guys, Ells, Buch, Craw, and could still be a 1977 or 1978 Yankees. Yeah, right. My own observation from very far away (games on TV): BV is beginning to look like a beaten man; doesn't seem to show any confidence or bravado any more in the dugout.

That would be Bobby Grier bad -- Patriots circa 1999 -- and that's about as bad as it gets. There are a few similarities between that underperforming crew and the current one.

[ShaneTrot]

Here's the thing, though. If Cherington supports Valentine, then players and coaches don't go to Cherington to complain about him. Whether Cherington wanted Bobby or not is irrelevant; the decision was made to hire him, and at that point he needs to support his hire. If the decision to hire Valentine was so against his philosophy that he couldn't support him, I think he should have stepped down.

We've seen how this ends. A manager can't survive without support from the front office.

It also works the other way, if BV goes down and the team sucks, it's a huge black mark on Cherrington's record whether he wanted BV or not. He could be the next Josh Byrnes.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

So when do they fire Bobby V and hire Tek? Let's make the baby ballplayers happy and see what happens. Tek would be coming in with same level of experience as Ventura did (none) and great knowledge of players. It will never happen but would create excitement if it did.

Ventura was also seven years removed from being an active player and 13 years removed from wearing a White Sox uniform before he took that job. He had no prior connection to anyone on the White Sox roster. Tek was a teammate to half the guys in the Red Sox clubhouse just last year. I just don't see him being able to shake the teammate thing and become manager/boss to these guys in such a short time frame. I think you'd end up with the same situation of poor communication. Either Tek will still be a teammate to the guys and be able to muster any authority over anyone, or he comes in and lays down the law as the disciplinarian they supposedly need, and the players feel betrayed by him and tune him out. Either way, it's no better than what they apparently have now.

[lexrageorge]

The ownership needs to give both the GM and the manager the support they need so they both can succeed. That's called leadership 101. If players are going to Cherington to complain, then he needs to tell them to take it up with Valentine. Valentine should be able to go to Cherington and not only determine his assistants, but also tell him that someone other than Valentine needs to report on player injuries and rehab progress. When the Youkilis thing blew up, Cherington should have kept his mouth shut until he had a chance to chew out Valentine privately and wait for Valentine's inevitable retraction before saying anything.

When Valentine has been allowed to manage the game, he's done a good job, especially given the injuries and the presence of guys like Nick Punto on the bench. But right now it seems he's being put into a position to fail; unfortunately, the ballplayers are also being put into the same position, which is not going to help anything. Players are human, and sometimes stuff like this can affect how they play on the field.

The only cure is a 15 game winning streak starting tonight. We'll see...

[Harry Hooper]

My guess the source is "another manager, who has heard some of the reports of disharmony..."

My guess is, with the Rays coming to town, that other manager is Maddon.

Doubtful, a name not mentioned in the article is Magadan, and Kevin Millar a few days back talked about how Valentine and Magadan have a frosty non-relationship going.

The Adrian Gonzalez quick exit on Sunday night seems indicative of nothing other than a player needing to make a hasty departure before he vomits/shits his pants in the dugout on national TV. Also, McClure was hired (as special scout and instructor) a few days before BobbyV, but wasn't named pitching coach until about 3 weeks after BobbyV was hired.

But the overall gist of the article is no doubt accurate. Since it's looking like the Bobby Grier-Era Patriots, the motto for the second half should be "It's getting late in the evening."


Edit: damn you, dcmissile

Edited by Harry Hooper, 13 July 2012 - 09:36 AM.

[OttoC]

Didn't the front office announce after last season that there as going to be a single source for injury/rehab/etc. talk and it wasn't going to be the manager? This was after a number of times when there was a disconnect between Francona and the front office.

Also, don't the Red Sox effectively have two pitching coaches?

Finally, I said early on that I thought Lucchino was looking to run the team. How much autonomy does Cherington have? And I'll say again that I fault the owners for letting this whole fiasco that came about after the season happen and continue to happen.

[wutang112878]

It seems pretty clear here, that going forward, the GM should be allowed to hire the manager he wants, who should then be allowed to hire the coaching staff he wants. Crazy stuff, I know, but waiting so god damn long to hire the manager made it impossible for Valentine to have guys who were loyal to him. No matter what you think of Bobby, given the situation, having a staff with Tito loyalists, the best available guys from the scrap heap, and guys like Tuck who wanted out, was setting him up for a disaster.

Exactly, this seemed to be doomed from the start. Ben wasnt allowed to hire the manager he wanted, and Bobby wasnt allowed to hire his own coaching staff. In my simplistic view of how baseball operations should work the GM should be allowed to hire the manager he wants, and the manager should be allowed to hire the staff. Then, ultimately the manager should be evaluated on how well he utilizes the talent he is given and the GM should be evaluated on the results of the team and projected results over the long-term [because there will obviously be some rebuilding periods, so we can just look at short-term results]. In this case, Ben compromised and hired the manager LL wanted but a lot of the coaching staff wants Bobbys choice and shocker these guys dont seem to like working with Bobby. What amazes me is that as usual LL takes zero accountability and claims that his choice of managers is doing a great job, its as if no blame can ever stick to him.

It seems to me as though Ben didnt have enough respect at the table to stop this, and ownership trusted Larry's decision and belief that this 'compromise' with Ben on the manager decision would work, but it hasnt. I have a difficult time faulting Ben simply because I dont think he has completely autonomy in baseball op decisions, and maybe Larry just made a foolish decision. Regardless of who deserves the blame, ultimately ownership needs to accept accountability because they allowed this to happen.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The whole "hiring his own coaching staff" is a total canard. Tito had holdovers on his coaching staff when hired and seemed to do OK.

[Rudy Pemberton]

The whole "hiring his own coaching staff" is a total canard. Tito had holdovers on his coaching staff when hired and seemed to do OK.

I would argue that the mood of the team and in the organization was just a little bit different moving from Tito - Bobby than it was Grady - Tito though, no?

It's not a comparable situation, the transitions were totally different, as were the reasons the predecessor had been dismissed; there was nobody clamoring for Grady to come back (even I had soured on him at that point,ha!) not to mention that the '04 team's biggest acquisition was a major supporter of the new manager.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I would argue that the mood of the team and in the organization was just a little bit different moving from Tito - Bobby than it was Grady - Tito though, no?

It's not a comparable situation, the transitions were totally different, as were the reasons the predecessor had been dismissed; there was nobody clamoring for Grady to come back (even I had soured on him at that point,ha!) not to mention that the '04 team's biggest acquisition was a major supporter of the new manager.

A distinction without difference IMO. If Valentine's such a delicate jade vase of a manager that he can't help but divide the clubhouse unless he is surrounded by every last one of his first choices for coaches, I would posit he's not much of a manager to begin with.

He did get to hire a few of his own guys, most notably Royster at third base, so to me the complaint is baseless. He's a bad communicator and bad with people and shouldn't be in charge of either. He's probably a great strat-o-matic player though since those aspects are removed from that game.

[trekfan55]

First off, for all the Bibby haters, this is a problem that will not be fixed by firing him.

I think that after what happened last season, the team decided to let Francona go. Then Theo was granted permission to talk to the Cubs and left. The team was left with absolutely no transition plan and with two very important empty chairs and then went about filling them in in a very bad way. Nothing against Cherington (so far) but if you name the guy GM then at least let him be GM, and this may include the hiring of the manager. While I am not sure Dale Sveum was a better choice, I do think that if the process was done in a better way, and BobbyV included in the initial candidate pool from the get go, and Larry being involved from the beginning, things go differently.

Now, the problem is that BobbyV is maybe tuned out not because he is a lousy manager (I don't think he is but that's not for this thread) but because a) everyone knows that Ben did not want him and he was forced to hire him. and b) Not one member of the coaching staff is loyal to him.

Added to all of this is rumors of a dysfunctional clubhouse. So, what to do? If John Henry really wants this not to spin out of control, he needs to do a real house cleaning where he can (coaches, GM, etc.) and have a team that has a clear chain of command from the top down. This shpould happen in the offseason, so they can really hire the proper people, and it should happen regardless of this season's results.

[dcmissle]

Doubtful, a name not mentioned in the article is Magadan, and Kevin Millar a few days back talked about how Valentine and Magadan have a frosty non-relationship going.

The Adrian Gonzalez quick exit on Sunday night seems indicative of nothing other than a player needing to make a hasty departure before he vomits/shits his pants in the dugout on national TV. Also, McClure was hired (as special scout and instructor) a few days before BobbyV, but wasn't named pitching coach until about 3 weeks after BobbyV was hired.

But the overall gist of the article is no doubt accurate. Since it's looking like the Bobby Grier-Era Patriots, the motto for the second half should be "It's getting late in the evening."


Edit: damn you, dcmissile

One thing I'm confident about -- Gordon Edes in time will root out and expose every rotten timber, just as Borges and Will McDonough did with those Pats. When that happens, it's hilarious how people jump ugly on the messenger, channeling their inner Pitinos.

[Lefty on the Mound]

It is implausible that in even the most horrific of emergency situations that an employee would not contact his employer for 3 weeks. We've all been there, you dip into the hallway and make a quick call when you're updating friends/family/employer. So who with the Red Sox does McClure work for?

If I was John Henry I'd be completely irate at this.

Implausible? Apparently you have never had a seriously ill son or daughter.

I can imagine that Bobby V and the Sox told McClure "Concentrate on taking care of your family. We'll deal with everything until you get back" and that McClure spent every waking hour supporting his child and his family without ever even thinking about baseball.

[glennhoffmania]

If we're saying that Bobby gets somewhat of a pass because he didn't pick his coaches so it's not his fault that they don't have good relationships, can't the same logic apply to the players who seem pissed off that they have to work with Bobby? Either everyone needs to shut up and make this work despite not getting to pick who's in the clubhouse or everyone gets some slack because they didn't pick their manager/coaches/players.

Edited by glennhoffmania, 13 July 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

A distinction without difference IMO. If Valentine's such a delicate jade vase of a manager that he can't help but divide the clubhouse unless he is surrounded by every last one of his first choices for coaches, I would posit he's not much of a manager to begin with.

If Ben's trying to prove that hiring Bobby was a bad decision, then he'll likely be proven right. All I'm saying is that they haven't given Bobby much help in terms of being in a position to succeed (the exact opposite of TIto in '04). Of course, Cherington probably was put in the same kind of situation by his bosses. So, I think it's clear that the major issues are above both guys.

If we're saying that Bobby gets somewhat of a pass because he didn't pick his coaches so it's not his fault that they don't have good relationships, can't the same logic apply to the players who seems pissed off that they have to work with Bobby? Either everyone needs to shut up and make this work despite not getting to pick who's in the clubhouse or everyone gets some slack because they didn't pick their manager/coaches/players.

I don't know, the players got the last guy canned. I'm of the opinion that the players should be focused on playing. But yeah, everyone needs to shut up and focus on playing. Of course, the precedent has been set that guys who gripe about playing time will get traded, and not performing will probably get the manager fired....so, what's the incentive to perform? That's where we get to the whole team aspect and that guys need to win for each other. That assumes they give a shit about each other, and the last guy said they didn't.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 13 July 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[trekfan55]

A distinction without difference IMO. If Valentine's such a delicate jade vase of a manager that he can't help but divide the clubhouse unless he is surrounded by every last one of his first choices for coaches, I would posit he's not much of a manager to begin with.

He did get to hire a few of his own guys, most notably Royster at third base, so to me the complaint is baseless. He's a bad communicator and bad with people and shouldn't be in charge of either. He's probably a great strat-o-matic player though since those aspects are removed from that game.

Well, the main difference is that when Grady was let go it was agreed by practically everyone that he was a lousy baseball manager, punctuated by his bonehead decision in that Game 7. So even if some of the coaches Tito inherited were holdovers, I doubt many were hating Tito because their loyalty lied with Gump.

In this case, as tuned out as it was, and as horrible as the results were in Sept 2011, there are still people who think that Tito should not have been fired, and that BobbyV should never have been hired, and that gets us to articles like this one.