160 replies to this topic

[jon abbey]

Youkilis just put the White Sox ahead 9-8 in the top of the 14th after an epic 14 pitch AB with runners on first and third and one out that finally ended with a sacrifice fly.

[Van Everyman]

If he keeps this up, at what point do we stop blaming Bobby and Ben for this and start blaming Youk for tanking his season with the Red Sox?

Don't get me wrong -- I loved Youk as much as the next fan. But the idea that a guy making $12M can't do his job even adequately because "his coach doesn't support him" or "he wasn't appreciated" is weak tea -- and AFAIC exactly the reason I think the players are more to blame for underperformance thus far than anyone in the FO or Bobby.

[SemperFidelisSox]

Was Youk tanking it, or was he a 33 year old trying to work his way back from offseason hernia surgery and just needed Bobby to be patient? I think its the latter, but we'll never really know.

[jon abbey]

5 game winning RBIs in 14 games for the White Sox now.

[InsideTheParker]

If he keeps this up, at what point do we stop blaming Bobby and Ben for this and start blaming Youk for tanking his season with the Red Sox?

Don't get me wrong -- I loved Youk as much as the next fan. But the idea that a guy making $12M can't do his job even adequately because "his coach doesn't support him" or "he wasn't appreciated" is weak tea -- and AFAIC exactly the reason I think the players are more to blame for underperformance thus far than anyone in the FO or Bobby.

I think your suggestions would have more validity if he were playing every day, with Will Middlebrooks back in AAA tending to his hammy. As it was, every appearance was scrutinized negatively, contrasting to WMB. That would certainly lead to pressing, which is not a good way to get better. I was struck by Reddick's remarks last month that he credits his improvement to the "opportunity to play every day."

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Lost in all the discussion of whether Youk was tanking is the fact that he had a terrible first week as a White Sox -- hitting .231/.259/.269, with no walks and only one XBH.

Yet Ventura didn't jerk him around either by defensive position, or in lineup slot, or through reduced playing time, and now they get to benefit from one of Youk's patented crazy hot streaks. So no, I don't think it's in any way fair to accuse Youk of deliberately tanking for Boston.

[HillysLastWalk]

14 pitch at bat here: http://chicago.white...pic_id=28033182

[mt8thsw9th]

Man, another good week and his OPS will be over .800.

[Plympton91]

Man, another good week and his OPS will be over .800.

Because as we all know, when evaluating a potential decision, the only relevant information is the sunk costs.

[kieckeredinthehead]

I was struck by Reddick's remarks last month that he credits his improvement to the "opportunity to play every day."

He played 87 games in a 91 game stretch for the Red Sox last season (two of those games off being doubleheaders). I'm not sure players are always the best source for understanding their own success. See McCarver, T. and Morgan, J.

[The Gray Eagle]

Man, another good week and his OPS will be over .800.

In another month or so, his OBP might even be better than Middlebrooks'. Oh wait it already is: .346 to .328.

We would have already won a few more games if we hadn't made that stupid trade, but that's not as important as keeping Bobby Valentine happy. Gomez at first base last night, Lillibridge at first base tonight, in important games against Tampa. It doesn't even matter if Youks gets hurt again in a week, we've already needed him and would have already benefited a lot just from keeping him.

This was a loser trade from the moment it was made and is already even more of a loser, and could still become an epic joke of futility if things keep going the way they have.

I hope that Middlebrooks can get his OBP back up over .333 at some point but he's a rookie who never walks, so I don't think it's that likely. Speaking of Reddick, he and Middlebrooks seem pretty similar to me, in that they were low-walk power hitters in the minors, and no one believed in Reddick once he hit his slump last year. Middlebrooks could have a similar season, tearing it up for a couple months when he first arrives, and then struggling for the rest of his rookie season, before coming back strong in his second year. That should surprise absolutely no one, but the Red Sox just banked on it not happening.

[Cellar-Door]

can we stop with the " we would have won more games with Youk the last week" nonsense? The idea that Youk would have necessarily performed the same against different teams is insulting to the intelligence of this board's members. While he was playing in band boxes we were playing in Seattle and Oakland, wildly different game situations, parks and pitchers were involved. In the Yankees series our 3B went 7-16, we aren't losing because of the production at 3B, and Youkilis would have made almost no difference.

[Sprowl]

can we stop with the " we would have won more games with Youk the last week" nonsense? The idea that Youk would have necessarily performed the same against different teams is insulting to the intelligence of this board's members. While he was playing in band boxes we were playing in Seattle and Oakland, wildly different game situations, parks and pitchers were involved. In the Yankees series our 3B went 7-16, we aren't losing because of the production at 3B, and Youkilis would have made almost no difference.

Heh. You don't really get the purpose of this thread, do you?

The fallacy of the predetermined outcome is not illegal in a game thread. Of course the team would have been much better off with Youkilis around to play 3B then and 1B now, and the team certainly could have used OPS>1.000 from any of its hitters. The Red Sox were losing, in part, because of very bad defense at 3B from Mauro Gomez and lack of timely hitting from much of anybody.

[Cellar-Door]

0-4 IBB 2K, stranded runners in scoring position in 2 different innings.

[BroodsSexton]

He's a witch!

[BroodsSexton]

Might as well throw this out here for the masses to chew on:

Red Sox manager Bobby Valentine placed the onus for his strained relationship with Kevin Youkilis on the former Boston infielder Sunday morning.

"I think the comment I made early, he made a big issue out of, and I don't think he ever wanted to get over it," Valentine said in response to a question about Youkilis, who will return to Fenway Park on Monday as a member of the Chicago White Sox, the team to which he was traded June 24.

But it was obvious the relationship never healed.
Asked Sunday if it was strained, Valentine said, "I have no idea. It was whatever he wanted it to be."

Told of Valentine's comments Sunday, Youkilis refused to add fuel to the fire.

"I got nothing about any of that stuff," he said before a game against the Kansas City Royals. "I'm over all the Boston thing of this year. There is a lot of great past history, but the focus is on the White Sox."

Valentine strongly disputed he had any problem with Youkilis in spring training, though he acknowledged he was aware that some teammates had issues with the infielder.

"Yeah, I was aware of that," Valentine said.

Did the manager have concerns it could morph into a bigger problem?

"Don't know," he said. "What'd you think? I inherited that situation. I didn't cause it."

"I haven't seen him play," Valentine said. "He's gotten a lot of hits, played a lot of games. It seems like he's healthier."

Asked if he was surprised that Youkilis appeared healthier, Valentine said, "Not surprised. As a matter of fact Maggs (hitting coach Dave Magadan) said he had no doubt if (Youkilis) went somewhere else he'd play better."

[soxhop411]

Might as well throw this out here for the masses to chew on:

Asked if he was surprised that Youkilis appeared healthier, Valentine said, "Not surprised. As a matter of fact Maggs (hitting coach Dave Magadan) said he had no doubt if (Youkilis) went somewhere else he'd play better."

so he tanked for the sox?

[Ed Hillel]

Yeah, I'm gonna believe Bobby on this one.

Can the guy ever just keep his mouth shut?

Edited by Ed Hillel, 15 July 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[Cellar-Door]

0-4 BB 2K

[InsideTheParker]

0-4 BB 2K

I knew the lie about him tanking for Boston wouldn't hold up. He can have a bad game just like any other guy.

[biollante]

What is Valentine's problem ? I really don't understand the guy. He doesn't really fit into the 21st century.

[Sprowl]

I haven't seen this posted yet: Kevin Youkilis' letter to Red Sox Nation

A few snippets:

It has been an honor and a privilege to play every home game of my career in Boston before a sold out Fenway Park. I would like to thank everyone who gave me an opportunity in Boston, and stood behind me through all these years. To the Spinners, the Sea Dogs, the PawSox, and to all those teammates on the Red Sox since 2004, I am forever grateful.

I want to thank the Red Sox ownership for all the hard work and dedication to making the Red Sox and Fenway Park a special place to play. They have always supported me on the field, and have helped out in many ways off the field. I can't thank them enough for my time in Boston.

To Terry Francona, who led us to 2 World Series championships in 2004 and 2007, I thank you for your support and personal guidance through my career with the Red Sox. I thank you for being there for me not just as a manager but as a friend off the field.
...
And to all those kids out there in Red Sox Nation, I can give you my Dad’s advice. “Life is like a throw to first base, always aim high.”

I wouldn't go so far as to say that no act of Youk's Boston career became him so well as the manner of his leaving it -- nothing can quite compare to his role in 2007 -- but it's a classy statement, devoid of recrimination.

[mauidano]

Love ya Youk, thanks for the memories. Best wishes, happy for you. I hope you take an 0-fer the series with the Red Sox.

[AMS25]

Youk played hard for the Sox, and I appreciate all he did while he was on the team. But, I don't miss his strike outs, especially during the last two seasons when they seemed almost inevitable after he was down two strikes. Best wishes, but like mauidano, I hope you go 0-fer in the upcoming series.

[InsideTheParker]

Baseball Tonight just showed two nifty defensive plays by the Youkster.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Baseball Tonight just showed two nifty defensive plays by the Youkster.

Sigh. Too bad he isn't with the sox, sitting on the pine,

[Rovin Romine]

I'm now curious who the other teams in the mix were - there got to be a GM facepalm somewhere.

[JayMags71]

Love ya Youk, thanks for the memories. Best wishes, happy for you. I hope you take an 0-fer the series with the Red Sox.

Do you honestly believe he's on SoSH?

[InsideTheParker]

Sigh. Too bad he isn't with the sox, sitting on the pine,

Yeah, letting Lillibridge and Gomez play first and third is a much better plan.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yeah, letting Lillibridge and Gomez play first and third is a much better plan.

Well, it appears that WMB and AGon are now healthy, per yesterday's game. Where would you propose playing him going forward?

[rembrat]

3B or 1B when Big Willie fucks up his hammy again or Adrian bends over to put on his loafers.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Which might happen, when exactly? And what do you propose doing with him in the meantime, as he sits on the bench plotting Valentine's death? Which BTW I'm in favor of.

[rembrat]

Knowing the Red Sox it could be happening right now.

[Toe Nash]

I'm now curious who the other teams in the mix were - there got to be a GM facepalm somewhere.

Yup. If the Sox were wrong about Youk, and maybe they were, then a bunch of other teams were too.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yup. If the Sox were wrong about Youk, and maybe they were, then a bunch of other teams were too.

This is a good point. Remember the scouting report that was put up on the main board before the trade, where the scout was quoted as saying Youk was essentially cooked? Either a lot of people screwed up bad in his evaluation, or he's just had a hot couple of weeks. We'll have to see who's right.

[Cellar-Door]

This is a good point. Remember the scouting report that was put up on the main board before the trade, where the scout was quoted as saying Youk was essentially cooked? Either a lot of people screwed up bad in his evaluation, or he's just had a hot couple of weeks. We'll have to see who's right.

it's not even a couple of weeks it was basically 3 maybe 4 good games all between the 3rd and 8th in the TEX and TOR series. He was .231/.259/.269 with Chicago before that, and .083/.389/.083 since the break. Tiny samples all around of course.

[HillysLastWalk]

it's not even a couple of weeks it was basically 3 maybe 4 good games all between the 3rd and 8th in the TEX and TOR series. He was .231/.259/.269 with Chicago before that, and .083/.389/.083 since the break. Tiny samples all around of course.

Yeah, he's been terrible.

Instead of cherry-picking individual games within a series of consecutive games, let's cherry-pick two relevant dates (it's the cherry-picking game!).

1. Since the trade:

WM - .205/.220/.410 - 10 Games played
KY - .295/.397/.475 - 16 Games played

2. Since Youks came off the DL (first game played May 22nd). Youks is getting closer and closer (see recent trend):

WM -.303/.342/.523
KY - .266/.361/.434

Edited by HillysLastWalk, 16 July 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[Adrian's Dome]

Yeah, he's been terrible.

Instead of cherry-picking stats, let's pick two relevant dates.

1. Since the trade:

WM - .205/.220/.410 - 10 Games played
KY - .295/.397/.475 - 16 Games played

2. Since Youks came off the DL (first game played May 22nd). Youks is getting closer and closer (see recent trend):

WM -.303/.342/.523
KY - .266/.361/.434

Instead of cherry-picking stats, let's cherry-pick some stats!

[HillysLastWalk]

Instead of cherry-picking stats, let's cherry-pick some stats!

Oooooooooh! You got me.

Original post fixed to be clearer as to what I meant (fyi, it was more of a knock on the ridiculous cherry-picking than anything else).

Edited by HillysLastWalk, 16 July 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[Cellar-Door]

Yeah, he's been terrible.

Instead of cherry-picking stats, let's pick two relevant dates.

1. Since the trade:

WM - .205/.220/.410 - 10 Games played
KY - .295/.397/.475 - 16 Games played

2. Since Youks came off the DL (first game played May 22nd). Youks is getting closer and closer (see recent trend):

WM -.303/.342/.523
KY - .266/.361/.434

huh? I was pointing out that it was a series of streaks, cold, red hot,ice cold, rather than a consistent game in, game out change in the level of performance. There are no relevant samples in 16 games, I was simply noting that he had 2 really good series in a 6 day period that contribute basically all of the improvement, and that in the rest of the games his performance was the same or worse than with the Sox, it was a response to the statement that he'd been hitting well for the last 3 weeks.
Edit- to clarify, I was pointing out that the sample size was so small that 3 or 4 games in a 6 game stretch were greatly skewing the numbers, and that perhaps we should wait for a larger sample before declaring Youks as returned to 2009 form.

Edited by Cellar-Door, 16 July 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[Sprowl]

Which might happen, when exactly? And what do you propose doing with him in the meantime, as he sits on the bench plotting Valentine's death? Which BTW I'm in favor of.

Show him where the gun locker, knife cabinet, and poison cellar are. Then get out of the way and let Justice take her own mysterious and impartial course.

[adam42381]

Youk took the high road and was very complimentary of the Boston fans in his press conference which just aired (partially) on MLB Network. Dodged the Valentine question, basically saying he's just here to play baseball and doesn't know why people are still talking about a so-called Youkilis-Valentine rift.

[mauidano]

Youk took the high road and was very complimentary of the Boston fans in his press conference which just aired (partially) on MLB Network. Dodged the Valentine question, basically saying he's just here to play baseball and doesn't know why people are still talking about a so-called Youkilis-Valentine rift.

Doing the right thing. Just let it die. It was so OVERBLOWN in the first place. Move on everyone else.

[rembrat]

Which might happen, when exactly? And what do you propose doing with him in the meantime, as he sits on the bench plotting Valentine's death? Which BTW I'm in favor of.

Cross your fingers that Ortiz just has a cramp, ahole.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Oh grow up, for fuck's sakes.

[Cellar-Door]

3-4 2 2B, K
first hits since the break

[HillysLastWalk]

3-4 2 2B, K
first hits since the break

Sorry for the nitpick, hes had 1 hit (and 5 walks and a SF in 3 games) before tonight.

Edited by HillysLastWalk, 16 July 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[Cellar-Door]

Sorry for the nitpick, hes had 1 hit (and 5 walks and a SF in 3 games) before tonight.

whoops missed the hit somehow.

[glennhoffmania]

Youkilis just did some more good stuff. Yay.

[HillysLastWalk]

Youkilis just did some more good stuff. Yay.

HE'S COOKED!!!!!!!!!!! or not, I guess.