39 replies to this topic

[JimRiceHOFer]

http://sports.yahoo....09578--mlb.html

He thinks Jim Rice, Gary Carter, Kirby Puckett, Phil Niekro, Don Sutton, and Bert Blyleven should not have got into the Hall of Fame.

While one could make a case for each of those players, the one that jumped out at me was Jim Rice because I think he's more deserving and can be directly comparable to Reggie. So I looked up both of their lifetime stats. Since Reggie played 5 years longer than Rice, I just compared their 162 game averages, which better summarizes their contributions. Doing so, I found this:

Jackson Rice
AVG. .262 .298
HITS 148 190
RUNS 89 97
RBI's 98 113
HR 32 30
TB 278 320
SLG .490 .502
OPS .846 .854

In every category except HR, Rice was a better player, sometimes by a significant margin (like BA), and the HR difference was minimal. Rice also averaged fewer strikeouts, more doubles, more triples, and so on. They both won the same number of MVP awards (1) and Rice came in the top 5 for MVP more times (6) than did Jackson (5) while playing 5 fewer years. The only real advantage for Jackson was he played longer and was in more postseason games, but that's more of a team success than an individual one. By all fair measures, Jim Rice was a better player than Reggie Jackson.

[natpastime162]

I haven't read the article, but I believe the data you are using to judge Rice and Jackson is flawed. Jackson is being punished for playing his age 37-41 seasons. Three of those season he produced a negative oWAR, which happen to be the only three of his career (outside of the his 35 game rookie season).

Wouldn't a look at each player's 5-year peak be a better indicator? I would do it if I wasn't at work. What am saying, being at work isn't stopping me. The filter is blocking me from parts of baseball-reference.com.

Edited by natpastime162, 06 July 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[Seabass177]

Jim Rice had 42.4 B-Ref oWAR for his career. Reggie Jackson had 71.5.

Come on.

[DanoooME]

Another thing to remember is park effects. Rice played in Fenway which had an average PF of 107 from 1974-1989. The parks Reggie played in?

1967 KC - PF 98
1968-75 Oak - PF Avg 96
1976 Bal - PF 94
1977-81 MFY - PF Avg 98
1982-86 Cal - PF Avg 100
1987 Oak - PF 93

That means he played in pitchers parks most of his career except for Anaheim, which was neutral. That's a huge effect.

[drleather2001]

One could make the argument, with some conviction, that Jackson had at least 3 seasons better than any of Rice's seasons.

Jackson was clearly better.

More conclusively, if one takes their age 22 (age that both players played their first full season) through their age 36 (Rice's last year) seasons, Jackson had roughly 80 more HR (in 500 fewer ABs), and a better OBP and SLG than Rice, though not by much.

Based on that, at best you could argue that they are close, but here's the thing: Jackson hung around for another five years putting up stats as an average hitter. That's notable, and why he's clearly a more worthy choice for the HOF than Jim Ed, even disregarding the sizable postseason advantage that Mr. October has over Rice.

EDIT: Sorry, bad tables.

Edited by drleather2001, 06 July 2012 - 02:33 PM.

[Toe Nash]

The one that jumps out at me is Blyleven, especially because he said he would have put Morris in instead (blech).

That's all I need to know. He's actually right about Rice, who is one of the worst players in the HoF, but we've had that argument a million times.

Fortunately, he has no vote and I'm not sure why we care.

[Mooch]

Not sure what Reggie has against Bert Blyleven. Unless he's simply jealous of Blyleven owning his ass over the years:

Jackson's slash line against Bert: .214/.264/.397 with 49 Ks in 140 PAs.

[502 to Right]

By all fair measures, Jim Rice was a better player than Reggie Jackson.

I will let others make the on the field comparisons and I will make this point:

Reggie Jackson - First ballot Hall of Famer with 93.6% of the vote.
Jim Rice - 15th ballot Hall of Famer with 76.4% of the vote.

The Hall of Fame voters strongly disagree with you.

Edited by 502 to Right, 06 July 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Look, Reggie didn't give any thought to statistical analysis or player comparison when he shot his mouth off. Reggie would be just fine if the Hall consisted of him and Babe Ruth.

He's a raging egomaniac who likes his name in the papers, so he's trashing other HoF members. Best to ignore him.

[Cumberland Blues]

By all fair measures, Jim Rice was a better player than Reggie Jackson.

Really? Unless "all fair measures" means "these raw, unadjusted stats which show what I want to believe" - you're wrong. That's even loonier than Reggie's notion that Blylevin doesn't belong in the HOF.

Career OPS+ favors Reggie 139-128 and Reggie had 3 seasons better than Rice's best. WAR is even more in Reggie's favor as noted above. By any objective measure - Reggie was a much better player than Jim Rice. I love Jim Ed and I'm glad he got in (I'm much more of a big Hall guy than Reggie), but if they decided to cull 50 from the Hall, Jim Ed goes, Reggie stays.

[StuckOnYouk]

It would have been nicer if he had said that Dwight Evans deserved to be in more than Jim Rice.

Did Reggie and Jim have any bad blood while they were playing? Seems strange for a HOF'er to go after other HOF'ers.

[Papo The Snow Tiger]

Just on principle, Reggie Jackson can go suck a fat one.

[Lose Remerswaal]

Folks, folks, folks. Take a look at the name of the poster who started the thread, THEN consider whether there might be some biases.

[jon abbey]

Did Reggie and Jim have any bad blood while they were playing? Seems strange for a HOF'er to go after other HOF'ers.

Even stranger, he's a current Yankee employee who went after A-Rod (he was right, but that's not the point) which is pretty odd considering everyone knows how media-conscious and sensitive A-Rod is. SJH nailed it a few posts up.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

Even stranger, he's a current Yankee employee who went after A-Rod (he was right, but that's not the point) which is pretty odd considering everyone knows how media-conscious and sensitive A-Rod is. SJH nailed it a few posts up.

Well, Reggie Jackson did once try to kill the Queen of England (and Billy Martin), so none of this surprises me.

[CaptainLaddie]

Rice shouldn't be in the HOF. I was pissed when he got in. Anyone who legitimately thinks that Jackson < Rice should get a lobotomy and get it over with.

[JimRiceHOFer]

Jim Rice had 42.4 B-Ref oWAR for his career. Reggie Jackson had 71.5.

Come on.

Reggie also has a -17 dWAR for his career, so that brings down his overall valuation. Rice does have a negative -8 dWAR, but they are a lot closer when both stats are taken into consideration together.

Jackson 71.5 - 17 = 54.5
Rice 42.4 - 8 = 36.4

I don't believe that Rice was a better player than Reggie, but he is a lot closer than you might think.
Give him 5 more mediocre years to increase counting stats like Reggie had, and we wouldn't even be having a discussion about it.

Edited by JimRiceHOFer, 07 July 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[JMDurron]

Reggie also has a -17 dWAR for his career, so that brings down his overall valuation. Rice does have a negative -8 dWAR, but they are a lot closer when both stats are taken into consideration together.

Jackson 71.5 - 17 = 54.5
Rice 42.4 - 8 = 36.4

I don't believe that Rice was a better player than Reggie, but he is a lot closer than you might think.
Give him 5 more mediocre years to increase counting stats like Reggie had, and we wouldn't even be having a discussion about it.

Even I'm getting uncomfortable with this much revision of history. Rice didn't play 5 more years with average production with impressive power. It doesn't matter what Rice "would" have done in those years, because he was completely cooked by the time Jackson was merely average. That's not a minor difference between the two players, and wishing it hadn't doesn't change that.

[bakahump]

IMHO Jackson is right.....Of course I dont believe he should be in either.

My hall would have about 15 Hitters in it and be really boring. Basically my hall would probably be an "all time team" with 15 hitters and 10 pitchers. That ship has passed...and I admit most (99%) would hate it.


But Based on precedence Rice is probably fine, Reggie should STFU and do another 4000 situps.

[jon abbey]

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN

Reggie Jackson has basically been benched indefinitely by the Yankees, and told to stay from the team until he is informed otherwise.

[mikeford]

IMHO Jackson is right.....Of course I dont believe he should be in either.

Bingo.

If Reggie wants to take out all the "marginal" HOFers aka the Hall of Very Good, he can start with himself.

[foulkehampshire]

Bingo.

If Reggie wants to take out all the "marginal" HOFers aka the Hall of Very Good, he can start with himself.

There is nothing "marginal" about Reggie Jackson's career at all.

[Average Reds]

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN

Reggie Jackson has basically been benched indefinitely by the Yankees, and told to stay from the team until he is informed otherwise.

There's plenty of stupid to go around in this story, but for the Yankees to double down on it like this takes the cake.

The least offensive thing Jackson said was that A-Rod was tainted in the eyes of a lot of people for taking PEDs. The Yankees would have been smart to simply accept his apology and let this go rather than making Reggie Jackson a martyr over an issue where most agree with him.

[jon abbey]

The least offensive thing Jackson said was that A-Rod was tainted in the eyes of a lot of people for taking PEDs. The Yankees would have been smart to simply accept his apology and let this go rather than making Reggie Jackson a martyr over an issue where most agree with him.

But I think that Reggie Jackson's job is essentially coddling A-Rod, so given that, this reaction is pretty understandable. It's not like he's an actual coach or manager, and I also don't think this is the first time he's done this kind of thing.

[glennhoffmania]

I agree with Jon. Reggie is 100% right that ARod is tainted, but this isn't new news. And it's not something an employee should be saying. Just because it's accurate doesn't make it appropriate.

[Van Everyman]

This just in: Reggie Jackson is a loudmouth.

[Average Reds]

I agree with Jon. Reggie is 100% right that ARod is tainted, but this isn't new news. And it's not something an employee should be saying. Just because it's accurate doesn't make it appropriate.

I guess I'm not making myself clear. I don't fault the Yankees for being pissed at Jackson, but there are many ways to handle this without making Jackson seem like a sympathetic character and/or drawing attention to the issue of A-Rod's 'roid usage.

I do find it interesting to note that right after he tweeted about the Yankees decision to "bench" Jackson, Olney began to "clarify" his comments:

Nobody I spoke with has ruled out possibility that Reggie Jackson will return. He has effectively been placed in a penalty box.

There is as much anger in NYY organization about what he said regarding Gary Carter and Kirby Puckett as what Jackson said about others.

I mean, these last two kind of indicate that there is an understanding within the Yankee organization that by appearing to fire him for his comments, they are making the story about A-Rod and not Jackson. And that just isn't very smart.

I will admit that I was amused to learn that the Yankees are so concerned about the upholding the honor of Kirby Puckett and Gary Carter that Reggie has to take a time out....

[glennhoffmania]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that the organization handled this well. I'm just saying that I don't fault them for being a little pissy at Reggie.

[jon abbey]

I mean, these last two kind of indicate that there is an understanding within the Yankee organization that by appearing to fire him for his comments, they are making the story about A-Rod and not Jackson. And that just isn't very smart.

No one ever said he was fired, but seriously, a major chunk of his job description (unwritten, presumably) has always been to coddle A-Rod. When he seems to go out of his way to do the exact opposite, it's no surprise that there are repercussions, and I disagree that it reflects badly on A-Rod, who pretty much everyone has already formed fairly definitive opinions about already.

(And I hope that's my last post in this thread.)

[DrewDawg]

Reggie also has a -17 dWAR for his career, so that brings down his overall valuation. Rice does have a negative -8 dWAR, but they are a lot closer when both stats are taken into consideration together.

Jackson 71.5 - 17 = 54.5
Rice 42.4 - 8 = 36.4

I don't believe that Rice was a better player than Reggie, but he is a lot closer than you might think.
Give him 5 more mediocre years to increase counting stats like Reggie had, and we wouldn't even be having a discussion about it.

Wait...you think that 5 more mediocre seasons would make that 18 point gap in WAR disappear? 5 more mediocre seasons would boost Rice's WAR by 50%?

[Average Reds]

No one ever said he was fired, but seriously, a major chunk of his job description (unwritten, presumably) has always been to coddle A-Rod. When he seems to go out of his way to do the exact opposite, it's no surprise that there are repercussions, and I disagree that it reflects badly on A-Rod, who pretty much everyone has already formed fairly definitive opinions about already.

(And I hope that's my last post in this thread.)

No worries - I wasn't trying to take shots at you and I apologize if it came off that way.

I will admit that I had no idea that Jackson's job was/is to handle A-Rod. As I said, this whole story has plenty of stupid to go around, and it definitely starts with Jackson and his enormous mouth/ego.

Edited by Average Reds, 09 July 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[JohntheBaptist]

Bingo.

If Reggie wants to take out all the "marginal" HOFers aka the Hall of Very Good, he can start with himself.

Wow--you're serious? Last time I pay attention to your baseball posts.

And good for the MFY for telling him to sit down and shut up for a while. They hired the guy as a glorified ambassador for the team and he couldn't even be diplomatic enough to hold onto the spot.

[mabrowndog]

http://sports.yahoo....09578--mlb.html

He thinks Jim Rice, Gary Carter, Kirby Puckett, Phil Niekro, Don Sutton, and Bert Blyleven should not have got into the Hall of Fame.

While one could make a case for each of those players, the one that jumped out at me was Jim Rice because I think he's more deserving and can be directly comparable to Reggie. So I looked up both of their lifetime stats. Since Reggie played 5 years longer than Rice, I just compared their 162 game averages, which better summarizes their contributions. Doing so, I found this:

Jackson Rice
AVG. .262 .298
HITS 148 190
RUNS 89 97
RBI's 98 113
HR 32 30
TB 278 320
SLG .490 .502
OPS .846 .854

In every category except HR, Rice was a better player, sometimes by a significant margin (like BA), and the HR difference was minimal. Rice also averaged fewer strikeouts, more doubles, more triples, and so on. They both won the same number of MVP awards (1) and Rice came in the top 5 for MVP more times (6) than did Jackson (5) while playing 5 fewer years. The only real advantage for Jackson was he played longer and was in more postseason games, but that's more of a team success than an individual one. By all fair measures, Jim Rice was a better player than Reggie Jackson.

Sorry, man, but this is absolute rubbish. And I'm a guy who unconditionally loved JimEd when he played.

As you may recall I wrote an article in the Maple Street Press Red Sox Annual a few years back evaluating Rice's HOF candidacy. I used an array of objective measures, explored peak vs total career, accounted for the effects of PEDs on recent HR output, and compared him to other outfielders of his era. And by a preponderance of evidence across the board, no matter how I sliced it, he came up as a borderline candidate. And that was primarily against his peers, let alone the likes of Reggie. In the end, I concluded that if I were voting, Rice would be off my ballot albeit by a very slim margin.

The spotlight on Jackson certainly shone brightest during his Yankee years, giving some the impression that he was a crappy fielder (evidenced by Billy Martin famously pulling him in the middle of an inning at Fenway) or that he only hit the big homers in the postseason. Yet coming up in the late 60s/early-mid 70s Reggie was a complete ballplayer. He covered acres of ground in and center right field (both far more challenging positions than Rice's LF), had a gun for an arm (leading the AL twice in OF assists), ran the bases well and with speed, and put up batting numbers in lineups without a DH -- numbers you obscure by comparing their raw career data and averages without accounting for era or park effects, or their respective decline phases.

28% of Jackson's career PAs were pre-1973, when lineups were shallower. 25% of them were in cavernous Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum; among the most damning things about Rice are his home/road splits. Fenway, where he batted nearly 50% of his PAs, provided him a HUGE boost. As others have noted above, Jackson played until age 41 while Rice was done at 36. Playing 5 fewer years allowed Rice's stat lines to evade much of the decline phase Jackson saw.

To declare Rice a better player than Reggie is complete and utter nonsense.

Edited by mabrowndog, 18 July 2012 - 06:43 AM.

[DrewDawg]

He'll likely be back Friday. http://espn.go.com/n...-yankees-friday

That'll teach him!!

[drleather2001]

People haven't even really commented on "Mr. October's" postseason heroics, but the guy put up an .885 OPS over 318 postseason PAs. While not quite as good as Ortiz, it's pretty close. One could argue that the lack of a Division Round, and presumably generally weaker pitching staffs, makes Jackson's stats more impressive.

Speaking of Ortiz, comparing both of them through their age 36 seasons (note that Ortiz is only half way through his, so I doubled his 2012 counting stats);

PA HR OBP SLG OPS OPS+
Jackson: 8944 464 .363 .512 .875 149
Ortiz: 7990 422 .379 .547 .927 137

I mean, even disregarding the difference in eras, they are not that far apart. And that, of course, still ignores the fact that Jackson played decent defense. Pretty impressive.

Edited by drleather2001, 10 July 2012 - 04:10 PM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

People haven't even really commented on "Mr. October's" postseason heroics, but the guy put up an .885 OPS over 318 postseason PAs. While not quite as good as Ortiz, it's pretty close. One could argue that the lack of a Division Round, and presumably generally weaker pitching staffs, makes Jackson's stats more impressive.

Speaking of Ortiz, comparing both of them through their age 36 seasons (note that Ortiz is only half way through his, so I doubled his 2012 counting stats);

PA HR OBP SLG OPS OPS+
Jackson: 8944 464 .363 .512 .875 149
Ortiz: 7990 422 .379 .547 .927 137

I mean, even disregarding the difference in eras, they are not that far apart. And that, of course, still ignores the fact that Jackson played decent defense. Pretty impressive.

Oddly enough Reggie has only a 227/298/380/679 line over 181 PA in the ALCS. They should have called him Mr. Late October.

[mabrowndog]

Oddly enough Reggie has only a 227/298/380/679 line over 181 PA in the ALCS. They should have called him Mr. Late October.

To some extent, this was skewed by his woeful performances in '81 vs OAK, '82 vs MIL and '86 vs the Sox -- his age 35, 36 and 40 seasons. A .146/.226/.250/.476 line in 53 PA those 3 years. Before that he'd hit .261/.328/.435/.763 in 128 PA. Not stellar, but not as awful as his overall line suggests.

He did have his share of ALCS moments: 3-for-4 with 2 HR off Palmer in '71 G3. A walk, steal of 2nd, and double-steal of home (where he tore his hamstring after colliding with Freehan) in '72 G5 vs DET. 2-for-4 with a 2-run HR off Reggie Cleveland in '75 G2. 2-for-4 with an RBI off Rick Wise in '75 G3 (he also threw out Denny Doyle at 3B when he tried to advance on a Yaz fly out). 3-for-3 with a homer (3-run bomb off The Mad Hungarian), double and 2 walks in '78 G1. 2-for-3 with a HR and 3 RBI off Splittorff in '78 G3. 2-for-4 (both singles leading off innings) off Leonard in '80 G2. 3-for-5 with doubles off Oil Can and Steamer in '86 G6.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You're just killing my narrative, 'Dog.

[Spacemans Bong]

Dog would know, was it 73 when Reggie played center field in the Series? He played it well, and a couple people (roger Angell being one) wondered why he didn't play there more often.

Can you imagine Jim Ed doing that? This was a guy who got sent to DH in favor of Yaz in big games when Yaz was 39. Yaz was an all time great defensive left fielder, so it's not a total disgrace, but still.

[Robbie Rayzor]

The guy is, like Hesketh said, an egomaniac. He's also a colossal dick. To bring up two dead HOF'ers when he could have picked other living ones OR not even mentioned them proves it.
Who tramples on the graves of great dead ball players?
If Puckett was still alive, I might just maybe agree but fuck off with talking shit about the Kid- the guy was an 11 x All star and won three gold gloves.