64 replies to this topic

[Tyrone Biggums]

Major Trades (I'm including Theo in here as well since he "negotiated" it)

-Lowrie and Weiland for Melancon
-Reddick Miles Head and another prospect for Andrew Bailey and Ryan Sweeney
-Scutaro for Clay Mortenson
-Youkilis for Zach Stewart and Brent Lillebridge
- Theo Epstein for Chris Carpenter and a minor league reliever
- Minor Leaguer for Marlon Byrd
- Cash for Scott Posednik

What do all of these deals have in common? The Sox targeted a relief pitcher in every deal (except Posednik and Byrd of course). Not that its necessrily a bad thing but overall the talent coming back isn't matching the talent that is leaving. Granted the Scutaro deal that was universally panned has worked out extremely well so far, but Youkilis was given away to an AL Contender instead of an NL team which puts points against him IMO. Theo's compensation should have been defined before permission was granted.

Signings (Blue means no longer with organization)
-Punto
-Cody Ross
-Padilla
-Aaron Cook
-Ross Olhlendorf
-Kelly Shoppach
-Carlos Silva

Obviously Cody Ross is an absolute A + signing, the guy has been amazing this year. As for the rest, Padilla has been solid, Shoppach has been a decent backup catcher, and Punto hasn't been horrific.

All and all I'd give Ben a C for what he's done so far, his moves in terms of free agency have for the most part worked out very well but the trades have been underwhelming at best. The handling of Bard is semi off set by the fact Aviles being able to play every day (due to dumping Scutaro) and produce, but its still baffling as to the way Bard was handled.

What say you?

Edited by Tyrone Biggums, 24 June 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[The Best Catch in 100 Years]

I gave him a D. There have been a couple of good moves--as you said, the Ross, Shoppach and Padilla signings have worked out, and a few deals haven't been good or bad--but he's given up a ton of value in Lowrie, Reddick, Head (tearing up the minors) and Weiland (would he be that much worse than Melancon out of the bullpen?) for two relievers who have not contributed anything, and whose issues (~zero track record outside NL Central; injury problems) could have been anticipated. Someone is going to have to help me out with this--could the Red Sox have signed Cody Ross if they hadn't dumped Scutaro? Mortensen has been pretty good but that also doesn't look like a great move, unless the bottom had dropped out of Scutaro's value to a far greater extent than I'd thought. Then you have this absolutely dreadful Youkilis trade, where you're dealing him at the low point of his value to a team you're competing against for a playoff slot for a 5th starter/swingman type and a utility guy. I might be underestimating the harm Youkilis's continued presence/sulking was doing to the team and the market for him, now and closer to the deadline, but after a while when you keep using these kinds of excuses (we don't know what the demand was like, etc.) for these trades that looked bad at the time and are gradually being proven as such, the conclusion that Ben Cherington at the very least might not be one of MLB's better negotiators becomes harder to escape.

[flredsoxfan]

I gave him a "B" - but the jury is still out since we're not yet half way through the season.

- Bard's experience starting after being drafted was terrible. I think he's much more effective used in small bursts.
- No problem with the Lawrie trade - for whatever reason he could never stay healthy and Melancon may yet prove worth it.
- Ross, Padilla, Posednik have been great.
- Shoppach has been OK.
- I didn't have a problem with the Reddick trade because I didn't think he was going to get enough playing time to be effective.
- Youkilis had to go and unfortunately he was traded at a "down" point in his career.
- Scutaro, to me, was a straight salary dump and Aviles has been pleasantly surprising so no problem there.
- Don't know yet about Cook - he could be very effective throwing 90% sinkers.
- I am not a Valentine fan so I wish he would have fought LL to hire his own guy.

Will the Sox be buyers or sellers in July because this team doesn't make the playoffs I don't believe?

Is there a way to get a true number one or oneA without crippling the team for the long term in the salary dept? I guess I'm looking for a little imagination to swing a blockbuster or maybe a three way.

[Cellar-Door]

I'd vote incomplete as it is way too early to evaluate some of these trades.
My thoughts early in the process though:

Lowrie and Weiland trade: Not crazy about it, but also don't think it was that bad. Lowrie was a guy who showed potential as a hitter in streaks but couldn't stay healthy and is a poor fielder at SS. I think he'll cool down to be a decent hitting poor fielding SS. Weiland to me is a guy who they were going to waive anyway for 40 man roster space. Melancon I think is a great pickup, he's an solid experienced late inning reliever under team control for 5 more years, who pitched fairly well as a rookie in the AL east before moving to the NL. His start was abysmal but since he came back up he has been excellent.

Reddick et al. trade: I love Reddick, but his huge 10HR power binge in May isn't happening on a consistent basis. His production is pretty easily replaced for the Sox with a Ross/Sweeney platoon. As for Bailey... I think he's a legit steal. He is almost as injury prone as Lowrie true, but when healthy he is one of the best closers in the AL and under team control until at least 2015.

Scutaro for Mortensen: Love it. Mortensen isn't going to be an ace, but he's still pretty young, under team control and a decent reliever and possible spot starter. Scutaro was a huge defensive liability at SS, breaking down, and Overpaid.

Youk for: Had to be done. I was one of the people advocating moving Youk before the season started. But in this situation he made the best he could. Take a shot they can fix Lillibridge's swing back to where it was last year when he was quite decent, and take a chance on Stewart being able to continue his conversion into a sinkerballer. Two young controlled players for half a season of a broken down Youk is a decent return, especially considering that Youk was a clear negative on the roster.

Byrd, Pods: Meh, didn;t give up anything and desperately needed a temporary body in CF. Could become excellent if they are able to move Pods for anything when he gets off the DL.

Signings:
For all the complaints I liked the Punto signing, I know 2 years blah blah blah. He plays good defense, walks, and runs the bases pretty well. He'll outearn the contract.
Like the Ross and Padilla signings a lot. Shoppach is a solid backup catcher.
The lotto ticket starters is a good approach, even if all we get out of it is Padilla and a few mediocre starts from Cook while players are on the DL it is a great return on a minimal investment.
Theo compensation was fine, people (myself included) got carried away on expectations, that was pretty fair value based on past GM moves.

[Rovin Romine]

I gave him a B+. To fairly evaluate a trade, you have to look at the chance of success at a need from both sides of the deal. If you trade from a strength, it does not necessarily hurt you, even if trade for a risky or low-probability return. Same thing goes for signings - you can plug your assets into a payroll any way you want, but at the end of the day you hit your dollar limit and you better not have holes.

The '12 Sox clearly had a budget to stay under. Ben's done a great job with what he's had.

Lowrie and Weiland for Melancon. This is the one bad mistake. Lowrie projected well, Melancon did not, and we were pretty thin on the ground as far as offensive SS/3B after Youks and Aviles. Imagine if Middlebrooks didn't break out and Youks went on the DL, and/or Aviles never gelled at the plate. It traded a huge potential strength for a potentially good reliever. That said, we didn't have Bailey at the time of the trade and needed *someone* in our bullpen. If the trade had been Lowrie and Weiland for Bailey, it would have been more acceptable.

-Reddick Miles Head and another prospect for Andrew Bailey and Ryan Sweeney. Decent trade - Reddick was surplus and not expected to be this good. We desperately needed a closer. If Ells didn't go down with an injury OR if Bailey had stayed healthy, we wouldn't be lamenting this one.
- Cody Ross signing. See above.

-Scutaro for Clay Mortenson. Great trade. Cleared room, saved money, got a good piece back in return.

-Youkilis for Zach Stewart and Brent Lillebridge. Eh. We might have gotten a little more, but I'm not sure how/if Youk could have re-established himself. Hard to judge just yet, plus we don't know the other trade options that were rejected.

- Theo Epstein for Chris Carpenter and a minor league reliever. Great trade as long as Theo took the framed photos of Crawford and Lackey with him.

- Minor Leaguer for Marlon Byrd. Plugging holes.

- Cash for Scott Posednik. Plugging holes.

-Punto. Hated this one. Punto's fungible. Lowrie could have filled the role. Mostly I just hated the opportunity cost, since there's clearly some kind of budget in place.

-Padilla. Clearly some of it stuck to the wall. Mission accomplished.
-Aaron Cook
-Ross Olhlendorf
-Carlos Silva

[AcevesSaves]

10 points for a major acquisition, 5 points for a minor one, 2 for one that hasn't totally been determined yet.

• Don't like the Lowrie trade, mostly because I felt he hadn't been tested enough; I we'd had the opportunity to see a full season of him. The Sox haven't had a reliable everyday shortstop for more than a year since Nomar, and I wish they'd given Lowrie the opportunity to be that guy. Also, though he's been better lately, I really don't think Melancon was worth giving away TWO players. (4/10)
• Jury's still out on the Reddick for Bailey/Sweeney trade. It had good intentions, especially b/c Cherington couldn't have known how well Nava and Kalish were going to pan out, but until Bailey shows himself on the field, you can't really say whether this was a success or not (especially considering that Reddick is having a decent season). (2/2)
• Scutaro for Mortenson was a good trade, although I had a soft spot for Scutaro. But Aviles certainly is a fine replacement who is as good as or better than Marco, and Mortenson so far has panned out well. Clearly a success. (Though one thing that nags me is had we held onto Scutaro, could we have packaged him with Youk and gotten a much better return? Still, Cherington couldn't have know Youk was going to fail, and WMB was going to be a blazing success, so I can't take points off) (7/10)
• Youk for Stewart/Lillibridge had to be done, and it seems as though this was the only way to get him out of town. (8/10)
• Minor Leaguer for Byrd was a necessary yet minor trade...could have checked him for PEDs though. (4/5)
• Podsednik was a success, plain and simple, though minor. (5/5)
• I hate Nick Punto; the man can't hit, and while he might be able to field, Lowrie could have done the job with an average 60 points higher. Also, that baserunning people bragged about never showed up. (1/5)
• Cody Ross; possibly the most underrated signing in the MLB this offseason; I love him, and he's tearing the cover off the ball right now. Easily Ben's best move so far. (10/10)
• Padilla has nicely taken over the long relief role Aceves lived in last season. (5/5)
• Cook is yet to be determined, though I think he could perform quite well for us. (2/2)
• Finally, Shoppach has been good; good and necessary defensive catcher, and his hitting stats have been surprisingly positive. (5/5)

53/64 = 83% = B-

Edited by AcevesSaves, 26 June 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[paulb0t]

The linear scoring doesn't really work here. The bad moves made far outweigh the minor good moves, and I think you need to adjust the curve.

Personally, I think he's been miserable. I didn't like the Melancon deal at the time - but thought it was somewhat defensible based on Lowrie's glass body, and that he could possibly fill in the 7th/8th inning slot for Bard (who would then close). To follow that move up two weeks later by trading the presumed starting RF (Reddick) plus two legitimate prospects for an oft-injured closer just reeked of awfulness. Especially when you consider that guys like Rodney, et al, were sitting on the open market for cheap.

The Scutaro trade only made sense because it allowed us to sign Ross (who has exceeded expectations), but he'd look a hell of a lot nicer as the reserve MI instead of paying Nick Freaking Punto.

On the Youk trade - no, he absolutely did not have to make that move. The Marlins gave up much more for Carlos fricking Lee. So, basically, that's a full on loss.

I give him three huge F's on his major moves. Maybe his bargain shopping gets him to a D on the whole (Shoppach, Ross, Padilla). Cook and Podsednik were basically guys that no one else in the baseball wanted at the major league level. And, Pods basically was a desperation grab after the last desperation grab (Byrd) spit the bit.

Look, I know a lot of his moves were forced (either by the invisible hand of LL, or by injury), and he's handcuffed by the Lackey/Crawford contracts, but he appears to have no plan or vision.

[PhilPlantier]

I agree with most of the what paulb0t posted above.

The Youkilis trade was an unmitigated disaster. Quite a few people seem to be justifying it by banging the "toxic clubhouse" drum. So Youkilis grumbles... What's the worst that happens? Would the team go into a tailspin and lose five games in a row? That happened after Youkilis was jettisoned for a has-been prospect and a utility infielder who has no utility. Losing contributes to a toxic clubhouse, and the presence of Lillibridge and the increased playing time for Punto and other AAAA journeymen equates to more losses. Personally, I don't believe for a moment that an unhappy Youkilis would have tanked on purpose to show his dissatisfaction; his on-the-field displays of emotion and off-the-field comments suggest he has too much pride for that.

It probably didn't help that this particular clubhouse features a manager with a tendency to publicly trash his players. I don't necessarily blame Ben Cherington for hiring a smarmy huckster to "motivate" these guys, but it also seems silly to give him credit for defusing the situation by shipping an asset out of town for post-World-War-I deutschmarks on the dollar.

When you factor in the Melancon debacle and the fact that the worst-case scenario for Bailey presented itself before he even threw a pitch for the Red Sox, it's hard to be optimistic about Cherington.

He destroyed any goodwill that he might have built from signing Ross by signing Punto for not one, but two years. That lapse in judgment is inexcusable because, as it happens, utility infielders who can't hit do grow on trees and can be signed year-to-year.

The notion that Aviles is a "fine replacement" might hold water in a world where every pitcher throws left-handed, but he has a .608 OPS against righties this season. Since April, here are his numbers: May (.639), June (.645), July (.411). Either he's allergic to warm weather or he's allergic to pitchers making adjustments. Maybe both.

Finally, under what metric does signing Marlon Byrd merit a 4/5 score? Acquiring an old fifth outfielder with no bat for Michael Bowden and PTBNL was not exactly a coup.

This team is constituted like crap. Some of it is not Cherington's fault, but enough of it is his fault to declare that he has been decidedly below average thus far.

[collings94]

I'll give hims a C-, but like everyone said, it is way too soon to judge. That Reddick trade is looking pretty bad right now.

[sancap14]

When you look at the team now you gotta give Ben an F. But one cannot underestimate the damage the Crawford and Lackey signings have done to the abilty for this team to dig itself out of any hole. We're 10 million over the luxury tax and look at the current roster. Unless Ben was the one whispering in Theo's ear he cannot be blamed soley for this mess.

[rglenmt]

Ben, being "in house" and maybe more of an architect over a number of years of the Red Sox success and foibles warrants critical evaluation.

Don't see how evaluation of moves made since he officially became GM until

Bailey pitches as the Closer for most of a Season, although letting Papelbon sign elsewhere was a smart long term move, particularly since Aceves has proven to be an effective Closer and Bard can still be the successor to Bailey and Aceves

Ryan Feeney is also good value for Reddick

Melancon will prove to be a bigger asset than Jed Lowrie

Cody Ross was a good signing, and with Ellsbury in CF, Crawford and Nava in LF, the Red Sox have a productive outfield, with Jackie Bradley and Ryan Kalish valuable even if Ellsbury is not re-signed.

Ben cannot be held responsible for Youk's slow first half, trading Youk to the White Sox cannot be evaluated until Zach Stewart gets a shot at being a ML starter, and Will MIddlebrooks has done well enough at the ML level to show he deserves a shot and with Iglesias and Ryan Lavarnway ready to be MLs, Lavarnway and Salty likely to share the catching and DH slot, moving Youk was good for the Sox and Youk.

Ben cannot be held responsible for injuries to Ellsbury, Crawford and Pedroia, nor slow starts by both Beckett and Lester, thus evaluating Ben's first Season as the GM is not fair until the Season is completed.

[Trotsky]

B. The guy was financially hamstrung and has to deal with jackasses on both sides of him (Lucchino above and Valentine "below"). At this point the Lowrie and Reddick trades are looking bad, but come on.... everyone and their uncle on SoSH was throwing their weight behind Kalish and wanted to toss Reddick for relief pitching. Everyone here hated Lowrie too.
The guy is making a shit-sandwich at least edible.... especially considering the injuries and attitudes.

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

I gave him an incomplete. Not enough to go on, until we see with some certainty what they have in Bailey and Melancon. Other than those moves, the other moves dont really mean much either way-Sox werent giving up enough to make a difference, and they were not targeting any real quality players. Even if they "win" those moves, it is not going to mean much to help the team.

[Niastri]

Lowrie was a very bad trade.

Reddick was a very bad trade.

Don't merely look at what we lost at the time, look at what we got at the time. Both are stud position players with problems.

Lowrie had health issues, but good experience and terrific potential. He had a good stretch that was so good I was able to trade him even up for Victor Martinez in a decent fantasy league. Nobody is stunned that he is the third highest OPS among SS now that he is healthy. Only a moron of a GM would take the fans view and assume he was always going to have mono.

Reddick was blocked and this was the season that he was going to be unblocked. While a 40 home run pace wasn't expected, nobody would be surprised if he hit 30 in a season.

Considering what these players could have been expected to produce, did we get even close to even value? If we thought we weren't ever going to play Reddick or Lowrie, couldn't Cherington have traded good players for good value? Those are the big fails. The little moves are what they are, but Scutaro was another failed trade except as a dump. If you have to dump salary, the mandate is clear. But why bother dumping salary in a year where you aren't going to get under the limit any way?

Pabelbon signs somewhere else and then Cherington freaks about the bullpen and trades really good assets for ephemeral pitching performance. Nobody has ever said that relievers are bad for your team, just that you can't reliably predict who will relieve well for you in a given year. On the other hand, position players are fairly reliable in their performance and their projection. Thus, huge advantage to position players or prospects. Cherington trades for good relievers with good positions players. He looked like he was desperate to find a good reliever. Two good GMs stole top position performers, THAT CHERINGTON KNEW COULD BE TOP PERFORMERS, for relievers.

I think Cherington has failed mightily under the "at time of trade" constraints and the failure has been magnified by the end result since the trade, not including injuries. Would a healthy Bailey be worth Reddick? Even in a best case scenario of Bailey's performance?

http://espn.go.com/m...3/andrew-bailey

http://espn.go.com/m...g3/josh-reddick
http://soxprospects....eddick-josh.htm

Cherington was running scared and that is a huge problem in a GM, especially one in his first season. You shouldn't run scared for at least one bad year.

Edited by Niastri, 15 July 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[priestvalon]

In my view you have to also look at the trades that were not made. After Bard's late struggles last year, penciling him into a rotation spot was iffy... and having another reliever go for the forth spot made it even more insane to me. I watched an awful lot of BoSox baseball last Sept, didn't think either Beckett or Lester were their old selves. I thought the rotation as it stood was a very big question mark, coming out of ST. In my head it was a hundred percent about saving money by playing a gamble on a team-friendly-contract player "out of position," to maximize value. Of course, if it works, Boston solves quite a bit of its flexibility issues. If not, you just turned your relief ace into Joba, at least temporarily.

That gamble failed for now, and if I'm armchair GMing, I'm looking to shore up the rotation in a two year window.

The rest of the lineup construction looks very bright, although you have to worry a little bit where the power has gone for the veterans, except David Ortiz. Ortiz is the straw that stirs the drink right now, and is making unhappy noises about accepting that single year of arb. I think he *could* play hardball, and this *could* end up like the Papelbon type situation, although admittedly Ortiz has a harder job shopping himself. The Red Sox are very cost conscious, and it really could hurt losing that 1-something OPS, going into next season with the current veteran question marks, and that rotation as it stands.

I think its too early to grade until year 2 or 3 of Ben's reign but looking at the new wild card system, you have to be aiming at a division lead, and this team as constructed is more of a hope-for-good-things than the best team in the division, and without some major improvements (or miraculous player corrections,) I don't see Boston as a sure #1 seed next year.

--Incomplete but needs improvement

[keyalyn]

Considering what these players could have been expected to produce, did we get even close to even value? If we thought we weren't ever going to play Reddick or Lowrie, couldn't Cherington have traded good players for good value? Those are the big fails. The little moves are what they are, but Scutaro was another failed trade except as a dump. If you have to dump salary, the mandate is clear. But why bother dumping salary in a year where you aren't going to get under the limit any way?

Criticize the Lowrie and Reddick trades all you want, but I don't see how the Scutaro trade is anything but a clear win. Scutaro currently has a .691OPS, Mortenson has been fantastic whenever he has been up, and without that trade they likely don't have the money to sign Ross, who has been a great addition to the team. How do you consider this a failed trade?

[Tyrone Biggums]

The linear scoring doesn't really work here. The bad moves made far outweigh the minor good moves, and I think you need to adjust the curve.

Personally, I think he's been miserable. I didn't like the Melancon deal at the time - but thought it was somewhat defensible based on Lowrie's glass body, and that he could possibly fill in the 7th/8th inning slot for Bard (who would then close). To follow that move up two weeks later by trading the presumed starting RF (Reddick) plus two legitimate prospects for an oft-injured closer just reeked of awfulness. Especially when you consider that guys like Rodney, et al, were sitting on the open market for cheap.

The Scutaro trade only made sense because it allowed us to sign Ross (who has exceeded expectations), but he'd look a hell of a lot nicer as the reserve MI instead of paying Nick Freaking Punto.

On the Youk trade - no, he absolutely did not have to make that move. The Marlins gave up much more for Carlos fricking Lee. So, basically, that's a full on loss.

I give him three huge F's on his major moves. Maybe his bargain shopping gets him to a D on the whole (Shoppach, Ross, Padilla). Cook and Podsednik were basically guys that no one else in the baseball wanted at the major league level. And, Pods basically was a desperation grab after the last desperation grab (Byrd) spit the bit.

Look, I know a lot of his moves were forced (either by the invisible hand of LL, or by injury), and he's handcuffed by the Lackey/Crawford contracts, but he appears to have no plan or vision.

Well and this is the thing, I don't see a end game or vision for him. The only thing I've noticed is his fetish to get a reliever back in every trade, he's a less distinguished version of Ed Wade.

[Niastri]

Criticize the Lowrie and Reddick trades all you want, but I don't see how the Scutaro trade is anything but a clear win. Scutaro currently has a .691OPS, Mortenson has been fantastic whenever he has been up, and without that trade they likely don't have the money to sign Ross, who has been a great addition to the team. How do you consider this a failed trade?

Since it didn't get us under the tax limit, and thus didn't free up any real money, why did they need to dump the salary? The baseball merits of the trade were twofold, giving Aviles the chance to play, and getting a good reliever prospect. But if we didn't need to dump salary, we don't make that trade. So circular thinking leads me back to: Why did we dump only a little bit of salary when we needed to dump a lot of salary?

Edited by Niastri, 15 July 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[keyalyn]

Since it didn't get us under the tax limit, and thus didn't free up any real money, why did they need to dump the salary? The baseball merits of the trade were twofold, giving Aviles the chance to play, and getting a good reliever prospect. But if we didn't need to dump salary, we don't make that trade. So circular thinking leads me back to: Why did we dump only a little bit of salary when we needed to dump a lot of salary?

The fact that they were over the limit makes it even more prudent to trade him. At a 40% tax rate, Scutaro would have cost them $8.4M this season. He was no longer a starter and would have been a massive overpay as a bench guy. Trading him and spending that money on Ross, Padilla, etc was far better than keeping him and signing the others, and saved them a sizable amount of money in the process. Even if it did not get them under the tax limit.

[Rovin Romine]

Since it didn't get us under the tax limit, and thus didn't free up any real money, why did they need to dump the salary?

Because it was attached to Scutaro, who is playing a hair better than Nick Punto and is making 6mil more. I can't believe you're seriously critiquing this one.

[Towney007]

Yeah, I realize the rage is sarcasm... but it's a shit post anyhow.

Good to know it fits in the background then...

The fact that they were over the limit makes it even more prudent to trade him. At a 40% tax rate, Scutaro would have cost them $8.4M this season. He was no longer a starter and would have been a massive overpay as a bench guy. Trading him and spending that money on Ross, Padilla, etc was far better than keeping him and signing the others, and saved them a sizable amount of money in the process. Even if it did not get them under the tax limit.

No idea how someone spins the Scutaro trade as being bad or anything even remotely close to it when it pretty much allowed them to fill a need in RF that's given them roughly more offensive production and equivalent defense for half the price... AND Padilla on top of it - who's been the setup man on this team for all intents and purposes all year. If we even view the trade through the lense of Scutaro for Aviles - you're looking at basically - .308 wOBA vs .301 wOBA which is negligible. $8.4 million vs $1.2 million makes that a no brainer. Of course everyone liked the 'get under the LT narrative', but no one really ever said that from the front office. Just seems like a better use of resources to me.

[Tyrone Biggums]

Since it didn't get us under the tax limit, and thus didn't free up any real money, why did they need to dump the salary? The baseball merits of the trade were twofold, giving Aviles the chance to play, and getting a good reliever prospect. But if we didn't need to dump salary, we don't make that trade. So circular thinking leads me back to: Why did we dump only a little bit of salary when we needed to dump a lot of salary?

Scutaro was the only trade that went right since we've gotten better production from SS and were able to use that money on Ross and Padilla and Cook.

[Towney007]

I'd hold the phone on the Lowrie trade, too...

On the DL - hitting .161/.282/.269 in last 110 PA's before getting injured... So yeah.

[QuinielaBox]

Ben Cherington is probably working on his next GM job as I cannot believe he can continue to grow working under Larry Luchino and John Henry. The hiring of Bobby Valentine is not on him since he wanted Dale Sveum. The trades he has made it is tough to judge at this point. The underperformance of Beckett, Lester, Buckholz, Adraine Gonzalez are more on the decisions made by Theo Epstein. I hope that he has the courage to be a strategic seller at this trading deadline period to get more young prospects and build a team for the future. I don't think the Red Sox ever had a realistic chance to compete this season judging by their catastrophic collapse in September followed by the off season charades.... He gets a gentlemens B so far and nothing more than that.

[Niastri]

I am conceding the point on Scutaro, given that he was expensive and we had better in house alternatives. The two that really seem like failures are the two trades widely panned here at the time, Reddick and Lowrie.

Since I was sure the Scutaro trade meant they were going with Lowrie and Aviles as our infield, I was actually pretty pleased. But then they traded Lowrie and Reddick and signed Punto and Ross to the same amount of money they saved on Scutaro. Lowrie seemed like a better player than Aviles or Scutaro, and they went with the wrong guy.

Reddick for a closer seemed iffy to me at the time, as Reddick seemed like a potential quality starter (at least) in the making last season. That has been proven correct so far this season. The fact Bailey has been injured all year doesn't make it a bad trade, it was a bad trade at the time. And then it created a cascade of trades and signings that didn't make the team cheaper, younger or better.

I don't like the reactionary nature of the trades made this off season, ones that certainly didn't take the long view. The bullpen is the easiest part of a team to piece together. We got more expensive, older and worse all at the same time when Reddick and Lowrie were traded.

[circus catch]

My greatest concern is the growing team philosophy of trading young positional players for relievers. The Red Sox will just not give a young player 500 at bats in a season to develop, and would rather deal those young players off for perceived needs in other areas, and sign veterans on the cheap to plug gaps. Lowrie I get because of his injury history, but Reddick is in his age 25 season. And its not just the guys who were dealt. Everyone here says they like Kelly Shoppach (and I do too) but Ryan Lavarnway was our catcher, dh, and cleanup hitter at times last year, and can't get a shot at the majors. That's not a good use of resources or a good way to develop ballplayers. Lars will never get the chance to play here, but two years ago they could have plugged him in at first, hoped it worked out, found a journeyman in a playoff push, with the idea that they could go after Pujols or Fielder or even Gonzalez later and they would still have Rizzo. Lars is still only 24 with a .785 OPS in AAA. I know hindsight is 20/20, and that playing Lars at the time would have been controversial, but it is a path that could have been followed, and something many other teams would have done.

I'm aware that Middlebrooks, Pedroia, and Ellsbury all came through the system, but Pedroia and Ellsbury were a while ago now, and Middlebrooks stole a job during a perfect series events of him. If Youk hits well, then Middlebrooks spends the year in AAA with a chance to play in his age 24 season. But in that situation, what do you want to bet that the Sox sign a veteran thirdbaseman to a one-year deal, just in case? And If Middlebrooks gets hurt in spring training or doesn't hit well there, its back to Pawtucket.

So I guess I'm saying that I don't know how independent Cherington is, that the deals made this year were worth a C given the team philosophy, but I don't like what we're doing. Its a very expensive veteran team with many injuries, low performances, no hall of famers and no career years. I think they still have a chance to win this year, but I doubt it with the rotation being what it is, and I think they have to take a serious look at what they are doing.

[Tyrone Biggums]

My greatest concern is the growing team philosophy of trading young positional players for relievers. The Red Sox will just not give a young player 500 at bats in a season to develop, and would rather deal those young players off for perceived needs in other areas, and sign veterans on the cheap to plug gaps. Lowrie I get because of his injury history, but Reddick is in his age 25 season. And its not just the guys who were dealt. Everyone here says they like Kelly Shoppach (and I do too) but Ryan Lavarnway was our catcher, dh, and cleanup hitter at times last year, and can't get a shot at the majors. That's not a good use of resources or a good way to develop ballplayers. Lars will never get the chance to play here, but two years ago they could have plugged him in at first, hoped it worked out, found a journeyman in a playoff push, with the idea that they could go after Pujols or Fielder or even Gonzalez later and they would still have Rizzo. Lars is still only 24 with a .785 OPS in AAA. I know hindsight is 20/20, and that playing Lars at the time would have been controversial, but it is a path that could have been followed, and something many other teams would have done.

I'm aware that Middlebrooks, Pedroia, and Ellsbury all came through the system, but Pedroia and Ellsbury were a while ago now, and Middlebrooks stole a job during a perfect series events of him. If Youk hits well, then Middlebrooks spends the year in AAA with a chance to play in his age 24 season. But in that situation, what do you want to bet that the Sox sign a veteran thirdbaseman to a one-year deal, just in case? And If Middlebrooks gets hurt in spring training or doesn't hit well there, its back to Pawtucket.

So I guess I'm saying that I don't know how independent Cherington is, that the deals made this year were worth a C given the team philosophy, but I don't like what we're doing. Its a very expensive veteran team with many injuries, low performances, no hall of famers and no career years. I think they still have a chance to win this year, but I doubt it with the rotation being what it is, and I think they have to take a serious look at what they are doing.

Reddick will be solid but hes a flash, give me Cody Ross over him any day of the week. The one thing I would have done, was just get rid of Beckett in the off season for prospects. He still has a good amount of value around the league and I would have taken advantage of that just to move him. It seems like both sides just need to move on. But if you notice in all of Cherrington's trades he has gotten back a reliever, I don't know if thats by design or not but its an alarming trend. It didn't work for Ed Wade and its not going to work for Ben.

[SoxLegacy]

Also I think that Lavarnway is in the team plans for 2013 and beyond. He'll have almost a full season of catching at AAA and will likely be a call up in September. He needs to be catching and playing as much as possible so sitting behind Salty and Shop is not ideal. I can see a Salty and Lavarnway platoon in '13.

[Tyrone Biggums]

I've had a strange feeling lately that Cherington will trade Lavarnway for Rafael Betancourt lately...

[Tyrone Biggums]

Lillbridge was traded to the Indians for a...wait for it...wait for it a career minor league reliever!!! didn't think we could get two dimes for a guy like Lillbridge but we did...great job Ben!!!

[oumbi]

seems a bit premature to do this 1/2 through the first season, no? but what the heck, it is SOSH and most of us are here to talk.

[Tyrone Biggums]

I'm getting less and less thrilled with Ben these days...I don't know why this team values crappy relievers so much but it does.


25 Relievers 25 Cabs the 2013 Boston Red Sox!

[Chris12345]

Why are they replacing Kalish!???? He's young and talented and should be starting over Crawford who needs surgery. Why is podsednik back?! He's 36 and useless for us in our youth movement...

FIRE BEN!!!!!

[absintheofmalaise]

Why are they replacing Kalish!???? He's young and talented and should be starting over Crawford who needs surgery. Why is podsednik back?! He's 36 and useless for us in our youth movement...

FIRE BEN!!!!!

I see that someone doesn't want to win the lurker challenge. But, we do have another volunteer for the Gods of BABIP.

[walkoffblast]

I am surprised that people blame Ben more than Theo for this season. Cherington had almost no money to spend and inherited a mess to deal with. How exactly was he supposed to get a difference making SP under those circumstances? Ever since Theo supposedly got more say than Lucchino things had been steadily going downhill as millions were squandered both then and for the future. Sure Ben was there too, and said he was in favor of Crawford, but Crawford isn't the biggest issue and saying anything else would have been counterproductive. The biggest issue is they invested good pitcher money in Lackey in spite of a variety of obvious questions surrounding such a move.

Edited by walkoffblast, 11 August 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[guido57]

I personally think we need more time to give an honest evaluation of his performance, I can't imagine a GM working under tougher conditions than Ben Cherington has this year. To begin with, he's had to deal with the three-headed monster which is ownership, he has to use the band-aid approach to acquire talent due to the dreaded luxury tax, and most importantly his plate was already full by the hand tying deals Theo made in previous years, particularly last year.
This year has been an awful one for all things Red Sox, the worst I've seen. The general manager position in todays market is an important one, to judge ones performance under these conditions, during this year in particular would be more than unfair.

[Tyrone Biggums]

Shoppach to the Mets for cash or a minor league reliever is kind of a moot point...should have traded him two weeks ago Ben. Obviously there was interest if he was claimed, they just chose to keep him...ugh

[bigsloppisrevenge]

He should have traded a catcher earlier, but he has been fine. You cannot blame him for these little cry babies. They have sucked for almost a year straight and they acted like morons last year. Than they go complain to the owners, the need to trade just about everyone, and that includes Pedey. I am sick to my stomach with the latest news.

[Tyrone Biggums]

He should have traded a catcher earlier, but he has been fine. You cannot blame him for these little cry babies. They have sucked for almost a year straight and they acted like morons last year. Than they go complain to the owners, the need to trade just about everyone, and that includes Pedey. I am sick to my stomach with the latest news.

Oh I don't blame him for the players being complete and utter bitch bags...they got themselves into this situation. I don't think a fire sale is the answer and I sure as hell wouldn't want Ed Wade Jr. handling trades of any of our big names, that being said there needs to be change and I think it starts with selling the team.

Ben needs to take responsibility for his utter failure to make necessary trades to put this team in one direction or the other, instead of just hoping they find themselves.

Edited by Tyrone Biggums, 14 August 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[sox sufferer]

I think Ben has one big headache on his hands with the latest news about the players' meeting last month. He didn't want to hire Valentine but now must deal with the fallout of it now. But the players should have played harder for Tito last September and they would still have their manager today. I dislike Valentine and would like to see him fired at the end of this season. Ownership will just have to eat the rest of the contract which shouldn't have been for two years anyway. Valentine doesn't have to be their best friend, but he does have to be respected. I can't see him getting any now. The team is a mess and a change has to made.

I might be in the minority but I like Adrian Gonzalez even more now that I know he was one of the (or the one) who called this meeting. It says that he cares, not just collecting his big paycheck and acting like a laid back California kid. I disagree with the huge contract but I am happy they went out and got him.

[Finnvold]

I was going to try and start a thread for the lurker challenge and then saw this one get bumped.
I'll start with the off season and includes signings and trades.

1) Re-signing Rich Hill - Good move and a no brainer. He was not offered a major league contract, and was working hard coming off Tommy John surgery. This was more of a Theo move then a Ben move but it worked out while he was healthy and could still be helpful next season. Overusage of him was probably on BV.

2) Kelly Shoppach - Probably their best bang for their buck at back up since at least Mirabelli. I'm not going to read into the catchers era difference as it is a small sample size, but from observation it appears more than a few pitchers prefer him to Salty. The argument of Shoppach vs Lavarnway to start the year is a different argument. I personally would have preferred Lavarnway from the start, but the dysfunction among the pitching staff probably saved him a big headache in his development. I'll give this one a B. I'd go higher but the clubhouse lawyer comments made me wonder if he contributed majorly to some of the conflicts among players and management.

3) Melancon for Lowrie and Weiland. Yes it seems one sided on paper. Lowrie was beasting it up the first few months (while Aviles quietly led Sox positional players in WAR until June). Weiland has not been healthy yet. Melancon looks like a AAA shuttle guy for now and probably does not have a guaranteed spot next season unless he figures it out quickly. At best he'll fill Matt Albers low leverage role. I'll give this one a C-/incomplete. It would be lower if Aviles was awful all year, but I believe they thought he'd be just fine and Punto would be able to help out more on his half of the platoon.

4) That leads me to Punto. I didn't have a problem with the signing. Along with him, Ross, Sweeney and Bailey they signed some positive clubhouse guys and I believe it was all in an attempt to loosen up the divide a bit. And while two years didnt make much sense, I thought he would at least be an above average 25th man who would perform a bit above Alex Cora level and more than spell Aviles against righties. Didn't happen, and he quickly fell out of favor and played his way out of even a platoon.

5) Ciriaco. Good get. That's why you stockpile low risk low reward guys in spring training. Once in a while you catch lightning in a bottle. I think he's the 25th man next year a la Damien Jackson.

6) John Maine and Carlos Silva did not work out but those types of signings happen every off season

7) Germano and Cook were the two that did work out in a 6th or 7th starter type way. Germano had enough value to trade to the Cubs where he is now in their rotation, and Cook has been slightly above replacement level and has earned his paycheck.

8) Padilla - Decent signing. Getting a known surly, clubhouse cancer who had a very good camp to agree to pitch in the pen was no small task, but he has been nearly incident free. He has more than done his job though he has worn down, down the stretch due to the starters not logging enough innings.

9) Trading Scutaro - They lost very little. He has not been appreciably better or worse in the NL and they saved a lot of money in the process.

10) Bailey and Sweeney for Reddick and Miles Head. This was their biggest blunder. Something in their evaluation of Reddick vs Kalish has been a big fail. Regardless of Kalish and his health, Reddick has taken huge steps forward in his development, and been an above average defender with plus power in a pitchers park in a thin lineup. If Bailey pitches well down the stretch and closes next year the gap will narrow a bit, but I'd like to see something more out of Kalish before making a better assessment.

Overall,I give his off season a C, some 6 months later, and a C- if you include BV (which I don't). Muddying the picture more are who truly was calling the shots.

[Reggie's Racquet]

It's time to hire Billy Beane. Please.

[Tyrone Biggums]

It's time to hire Billy Beane. Please.

I don't know if Beane could fix this mess, nor do I think he'd like to leave Oakland to work for LL and the Dentist

[alwyn96]

It's time to hire Billy Beane. Please.

Beyond the fact that Beane is now a part owner of the A's and is going nowhere, I wonder what in Beane's recent record (other than a well-made hagiographic movie) would make you think he would be well suited to the job. Low payroll or not, Oakland hasn't been relevant since 2006.

Edited by alwyn96, 15 August 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[alwyn96]

I think Finnvold's summary is pretty fair, although I'd add signing Ross to the good column, too. Cherington came into a tough situation, with the simmering discontent in the fanbase, and what looks to be some highly involved bosses in ownership. The only move that really drives me crazy are the Youkilis and Reddick deals. From what I can gather, the Youkilis deal was basically a favor to Youkilis - Youk wasn't going to be a full-time starter on a team with Middlebrooks, and they dealt him to a contender where he'd have a full-time job. I don't love it, but I can sort of understand that reasoning.

The Reddick/Head trade just kills me. I'll admit I thought Kalish was going to be the superior player going forward, and that Head was blocked and wasn't going to destroy A+ ball the way he did this year (he is struggling in AA, though). That said, that's why I'm not in baseball operations.

[Reggie's Racquet]

Beyond the fact that Beane is now a part owner of the A's and is going nowhere, I wonder what in Beane's recent record (other than a well-made hagiographic movie) would make you think he would be well suited to the job. Low payroll or not, Oakland hasn't been relevant since 2006.

How about a better record this year with one third the payroll and resources of the Red Sox?
Oakland is 61-55 and 1.5 out of the wildcard
Red Sox are 57-61 and 6.5 out of the wildcard

[Reggie's Racquet]

I don't know if Beane could fix this mess, nor do I think he'd like to leave Oakland to work for LL and the Dentist

As I pointed out in the game thread last night after the general election hiring Mitt Romney to run this team instead of Lucchino would be a great move.
At least he would get rid of the entitlements and the beer in the clubhouse!

[alwyn96]

How about a better record this year with one third the payroll and resources of the Red Sox?
Oakland is 61-55 and 1.5 out of the wildcard
Red Sox are 57-61 and 6.5 out of the wildcard

I'm not sure I'd just totally ignore that last 5 years in which Oakland was .500 or below. If we just look at last year, Nick Punto is a great baseball player.

Now, I think Beane is a decent GM, but his reputation far exceeds his results of the recent past, and there's no way he's coming to the Red Sox.

[Towney007]

Someone watched MONEYBALL~!

[Tyrone Biggums]

Pedro Beato is the return for Shoppach....another middle reliever

No one saw this coming......