49 replies to this topic

[Pxer]

Longest-tenured player in the organization is now gone.

Where have you gone, Kevin Youkilis
A nation turns it's lonely eyes to you
What's that you say, Mr. Cherington
Youkilis has left and gone away

a a b b c c d d e e f me

Edited by Pxer, 24 June 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[Dummy Hoy]

He was an asshole who got on base and hit for a bit of power. Played some real good D at first. He was an asshole.

Edit: He was a good to great player for a few years, his game has declined significantly, and he is (by several accounts) not a good clubhouse guy. Nothing to get worked up about.

Edited by Dummy Hoy, 24 June 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

It wasn't a good trade, but a good trade was probably impossible under the circumstances. There's almost no point in evaluating it. It is what it is. I gave it a C.

[Seels]

Bad trade. Indefensible

[mwonow]

If C- was an option, I'd have picked it. Seems like it was time for Youks to move on, but I'll miss him - there's less of the Red Sox to root for today than there was yesterday.

[Hendu's Gait]

Youk's personality was more toxic than the trade, but indefensible that you would subsidize him that much, getting that little in return, since you're not waiting after the July buyer's market is created (2nd wildcard). Especially with Youk's ability to play a second corner IF position, there is a pretty significant chance that a contender or a pretender will have an injury in the next 5+ weeks.

[YTF]

I voted D. I understand that there isn't a whole lot that could have been expected in return, but paying 5.5 of the 6.6 owed on top of it all is hard for me to accept. Have to believe that they could have gotten similar talent elsewhere and not have kicked in as much $$$$. Almost seems as though there was a self imposed deadline of today to get the deal done.

[Yaz4Ever]

He was an asshole who got on base and hit for a bit of power. Played some real good D at first. He was an asshole.

Edit: He was a good to great player for a few years, his game has declined significantly, and he is (by several accounts) not a good clubhouse guy. Nothing to get worked up about.

Youk's personality was more toxic than the trade, but indefensible that you would subsidize him that much, getting that little in return, since you're not waiting after the July buyer's market is created (2nd wildcard). Especially with Youk's ability to play a second corner IF position, there is a pretty significant chance that a contender or a pretender will have an injury in the next 5+ weeks.

Yup

[czar]

I voted B under the assumption that Youkilis had to get moved. I would have rather seen him take on a bench role if they were just going to pay his freight in a trade but it became readily obvious that wasn't happening (whether Youkilis didn't want to or would be toxic or whatever). But even then, it's kind of tough because saying C or below makes it sound like Cherington and Co. failed, but I really don't think they could have done a whole lot better. It is what it is.

Stewart and Lillibridge are underwhelming in a vacuum, but at least Stewart has a modicum of upside (sub 4.00 ML xFIP and his fastball velocity is up 3 mph from April). Youkilis wasn't going to bring anything back significant in return.

Edited by czar, 24 June 2012 - 05:27 PM.

[Plympton91]

Seems like getting a AAA pitcher who could maybe start a game without embarrassing himself is a good thing. Lillibridge is a better player than anyone on the AAA roster who they'd put in the same role (Spears, Ciriaco, etc). So, it wasn't totally useless.

When you add back Lillibridge's salary, they get no salary relief at all.

You've likely improved a team that is competing with you for the wild cards, which means the upgrade over what NL teams are offering has to be pre I tty significant to justify the trade. We won't know that, but it's hard to see how it could be true. I think I'd have just preferred dumping him the NL for no relief and no players to this deal, just in case he rebounds to what he was in the first half of 2011.

The trade isn't over. They will possibly lose someone off the 40-man roster to make room for Stewart. That should be added to the cost if it happens that way. That will subtract from whatever marginal value you received from CWS.

Overall, I grade it a D-; I reserve the right to change my mind if it turns out the Red Sox scouts know why Stewart lost 4 mph off his fastball and can fix it. To date, Ben is not impressing me much at all.

[kazuneko]

I can only figure Bobby V wanted him out no matter what. No reason to pull the trigger on this otherwise..

Edited by kazuneko, 24 June 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[El Tiante]

If the Sox want Middlebrooks at third, then Gonzales needs to play first. So they really had no choice but to move Youk. Certainly, we all feel as if the Red Sox got screwed on the deal. But, I am willing to withhold judgement until after the season. Youk may truly be done and then the Sox did the best they could. If not then I guess we need to see what Lillibridge and Stewart contribute to the Sox. I hope...something.

[glennhoffmania]

Yeah I don't get why they basically had to pick up almost the whole tab to get two crappy pieces back. Don't you usually either pay to get a better return or dump salary to get crap back?

[Savin Hillbilly]

To date, Ben is not impressing me much at all.

I'm impressed that he's not in McLean yet.

Yeah I don't get why they basically had to pick up almost the whole tab to get two crappy pieces back.

Because they had zero leverage. Everybody knew they were in addition-by-subtraction mode.

Edited by Savin Hillbilly, 24 June 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[dwainw]

I gave it a C. As in, blah. The whole situation was blah. His play has been blah, his health has been blah, his attitude has been blah, management's communication with him has been blah, the ingloriousness of his departure is blah, the return for him is blah, etc., etc.... A C-grade would be generous in my mind, but today's impromptu reception by the fans and the spontaneous love he received after leaving the game sort of salvages things a bit (I know it has nothing to do with the trade per se, but I'm choosing to evaluate the whole situation). Not to mention we can now usher in a distractionless Will Middlebrooks era (which I am excited about).

Sorry for the highly subjective "analysis," but I'm always sad to see one of our long-time players go. Sure he could be an asshole, but he gave 100% and he was OUR asshole.

[Sinistas]

Derp. Meant to go with D.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I gave it a D. Although I don't care how much cash the Sox picked up, there's almost no upside to either piece returning, and a motivated Youk is likely to mash in the AL Central.

This is a BobbyV-driven trade. I can feel it in my bones.

And I hate that feeling.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Youkilis will play better with Chicago because he'll be motivated? That's Valentinesque. If you want to blame anyone here, blame Middlebrooks who came in, hit like hell, and made the declining veteran expendable. That's baseball. I think it's largely addition by subtraction, and in hindsight it's a shame they didn't move him in the offseason. I give the trade a B, Stewart has some upside and Lillibridge is versatile, these guys could contribute to some extent, at the very least provide needed depth.

[snowmanny]

F.

Since I don't agree with the notions that

1) Youkilis is done, or
2) Youkilis is not done and therefore can't be a reserve.

If there were significant salary relief or a clearly useful player coming back, fine. But this was dumping a potentially very useful asset.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Youkilis will play better with Chicago because he'll be motivated?

Yes, you're right. Human beings perform equally well when they're motivated and driven to succeed as when they're frustrated and stuck in a bad situation.

That's a well-known fact of psychology that I'd forgotten.

And yet, somehow, I still dread any of the Sox starters facing a CWS 3-4-5 of Konerko-Dunn-Youkilis in a one-game wildcard playoff.

[Alcohol&Overcalls]

I gave it a D. Although I don't care how much cash the Sox picked up, there's almost no upside to either piece returning, and a motivated Youk is likely to mash in the AL Central.

No upside to a guy ranked in top-50 lists a year ago, and another guy prospect hounds salivated over as underrated due to park effects and age who never really got a chance?

This is a BobbyV-driven trade. I can feel it in my bones.

And I hate that feeling.

I would hate that feeling, too - luckily, Youks saying things like "I want to play" took any inkling away from me. Dude wouldn't take to a bench role - that's why we loved him, but also a problem here.

[AB in DC]

No need to sell low at this point.

Should have just stuck him on the DL for 15 days and see where things stand after that.

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Theo managed to move toxic we-need-him-gone-at-any-price Manny and brought back 1.5 good seasons of Jason Bay. Tell me again how this isn't an embarrasment?

[Mystic Merlin]

Theo managed to move toxic we-need-him-gone-at-any-price Manny and brought back 1.5 good seasons of Jason Bay. Tell me again how this isn't an embarrasment?

Manny Ramirez was still a top hitter?

Let's look at Youk with a level gaze here.

[JimBoSox9]

If Youks had gracefully transitioned into a corner backup, that would have been the ideal outcome for the 2012 squad's chances. A pox on both their houses for that. Youks could have been a more stand-up guy, but Bobby's probably the worst man for the job to help smooth that transition. The guy who maybe could have pulled it off is sitting behind a desk for ESPN.

[czar]

Theo managed to move toxic we-need-him-gone-at-any-price Manny and brought back 1.5 good seasons of Jason Bay. Tell me again how this isn't an embarrasment?

Seriously?

Manny was OPSing 926 at the time of the trade. The difference between 2008 Manny and 2012 Youkilis is the Grand Canyon in terms of value.

[Rudy Pemberton]

If Youks had gracefully transitioned into a corner backup, that would have been the ideal outcome for the 2012 squad's chances. A pox on both their houses for that. Youks could have been a more stand-up guy, but Bobby's probably the worst man for the job to help smooth that transition. The guy who maybe could have pulled it off is sitting behind a desk for ESPN.

Curt Schilling?

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

I've always been big Youkilis fan. But since 2009, he has been a failure in the single most fundamental, essential aspect of baseball: actually playing in baseball games.

In the past 3 1/2 seasons, Youkilis has missed almost 30 percent of his team's games. That severely cuts into his value. If you have to replace a starting player in 3 out of every 10 games, he'd better hit not just well, but spectacularly well in those other 7. Even at his best, I don't think Youkilis has ever been good enough to make up for missing so many games -- and he is certainly not at his best anymore.

I think it's reasonable to expect a front-line player to play at least 85 percent of his team's games, which isn't quite 140 games per season. Even by that rather forgiving standard, the White Sox are getting only about eight-tenths of a player.

That's why I gave this a B.

Edited by Gene Conleys Plane Ticket, 24 June 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

With the (of course) caveat that it's not my money, it's the $5.5m going with Youk that made the trade a D for me. I guess Lillibridge is a more appropriate back-up player than Youk, and they do sort of need a starter with options that can ride the shuttle, but even with Youk's apparent decline, neither player is half the player Youk is and we're still sending a bunch of money to Chicago. Just seems like the scales tip far too much toward the White Sox than the Red Sox.

The trade will ultimately judged by what Youks has left in the tank. If he plays every day and puts up a .900 OPS, it's going to look ugly. If he breaks down and sails off into the sunset, Ben did well.

[MikeM]

No need to sell low at this point.

Should have just stuck him on the DL for 15 days and see where things stand after that.

Or there was every reason to just sell period at this point and while it was even still an option, depending on one's perspective.

I'm sure a Youk would of been thrilled with that phantom DL trip concept too. On that note, nobody seems to be giving the FO any credit for doing right by guy in pretty crappy situation. Not that i'd expect such to count for much atm, given all the rather unrealistic expectations that have been floating around lately, but it's still worth at least a mention here imo.

Going C here, joining the it is what it is camp.

Edited by MikeM, 24 June 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[JimBoSox9]

Curt Schilling?

If only Curt was able to broker a Youks trade to Pawtucket, he definitely would have gotten Rhode Island to pick up the entire contract for him.

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

I think that a part of the new organizational philosophy is to get former top prospects who have sputtered with the org. that called them to the show. They then aquire these types and coach them up and hope that a change in scenery and some luck make them decent role players.

It's worked so far to an extent with Miller and Morales . For that reason I think Stewart may have some value, and Lillebridge at least has speed and some use as a Dave Roberts type pinch runner.

I'm not sure what people thought Youks would fetch....It wasn't going to be much. I look at the money as tougher to swallow, but I'm sure Ben faught for every dime there.

I give it a solid B

[Rudy Pemberton]

Curious as to why people care about the money. It's a sunk cost. I think they were lucky to get any relief. Hasn't the last few years of deals generally gone this way, with the trading team paying the freight? Team budgets are set, it's not as if having the additional cost would allow the Sox to do much the rest of the way.

[JMDurron]

The Red Sox gave up a little (Youkilis has value, but relatively little), paid a little ($5.5 million), and received...what? A marginal Punto upgrade and a pitcher with a miserable MLB track record to date?

I gave this trade a D, but would upgrade to a C if it turns out that Lillibridge is needed because Pedroia is more injured than we currently have reason to believe. That's a long shot, but it's all I've got right now.

[JakeRae]

I gave this a C, but it's really a C-. It would've been a C+ if they had gotten a lottery ticket prospect instead of Lillibridge. I am not at all excited about his acquisition. Zach Stewart fills a very needed depth role for the organization and, while not exciting, I get why he was appealing to Cherrington. The Red Sox badly needed a MLB ready starter with options who they could stash in AAA. They now have that. I would've liked to get more back for Youkilis and regret that we needed to sell low, but the situation was what it was and I can't evaluate the trade based on that.

This trade does fit with a worrying trend in which every trade Cherrington has made seems to involve giving up more value than we receive back. I don't expect him to "win" trades, at least not very often, but it would be nice to stop losing them.

[Papelbon's Poutine]

There's also a $1m buy out to consider when talking about the money.

(null)

[Captaincoop]

I have no problem with the Sox dumping Youks if he was that much of a problem in a reserve role. I trust that Bobby and Ben can figure that much out better than we can from the outside.

What I don't understand is dumping him to an AL contender for next to nothing in return and paying almost his entire salary.

If that was the best value you could get for him, don't you just dump him to the Dodgers or Diamondbacks for absolutely nothing? Avoiding the possibility that this makes the wild card race even 1% harder for the (real) Sox would override whatever value Stewart and Lillibridge add, IMHO.

[bankshot1]

it smells like a salary dump, except there is no savings + scaping goating a guy who was pretty much admired as a guy who gave a shit and played hard every day when he was healthy.

The positive is that WMB and Gonzo can resume playing their intended positions.

D+

[Oil Can Dan]

Sometime less is more. Now maybe they can move a step closer to being a team, rather than a group of individuals. I give it a B.

(null)

[MalzoneExpress]

I gave this trade an "F". What do the Sox do if Middlebrooks gets injured? Punto? They have no viable replacement if WMB goes down for an extended period of time. And If Gonzo goes down, we have to hope Lars can do the job, but he is unproven. If we are paying almost all of Youk's salary anyway, I would prefer he stay with the Sox and be the uber-corner infield backup who can pinch hit and give WMB and Gonzo and day off every now and then. WMB will need some days off to keep fresh, too. This trade seriously weakened the Sox for 2012.

Youk is not an asshole. He may be a difficult personality and he is intense, but an asshole he is not. He does lots of charitable work and is a good teammate. Just last week, in an interview a couple of days after he dropped a fly ball, Kalish mention that Youk among other had come over to him afterward and gave him encouragement. He specifically said that Youk had been his friend since he join the organization. All indications are that Youk is a very hard worker. That he cares about the team and about winning. He played hard every day. He is the kind of player we should want. He is coming back from injury and has not been as productive as we all would have hoped, but I don't think he is done. He will bounce back, just like Papi did, and will have several productive seasons.

edit to fix typos.

Edited by MalzoneExpress, 24 June 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[bsj]

[Papelbon's Poutine]

My biggest disappointment is that now WMB will not get sent back to AAA for a few weeks to wait for inevitable Youks injury. Because then when they recalled him he would have gotten a real number and I could have bought a new t shirt. Now I have to wait until next year.

Edited by Papelbon's Poutine, 24 June 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[terrynever]

Youk had a lot of big hits against the Yankees. I never liked seeing him come to the plate because he worked the count, even after falling behind 0-2. It takes a lot of confidence to protect the plate when you're behind in the count. I always thought Youk was a fearless player with good hands who made so many diving stops at both corners of the infield. He was a great opponent. I bet he comes back to torment Boston now that he is free of the pressures that plagued him for the last couple of years. He'll probably hurt the Yankees, too. Solid, no-lose trade for Chicago. The guy is far from done. He just needed a change of scenery.

Edited by terrynever, 24 June 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

Curious as to why people care about the money. It's a sunk cost. I think they were lucky to get any relief. Hasn't the last few years of deals generally gone this way, with the trading team paying the freight? Team budgets are set, it's not as if having the additional cost would allow the Sox to do much the rest of the way.

I'd rather have seen them eat the whole thing and pick up something better than a Lillibridge to go with Stewart. Or, just dump the player and get as much salary relief as possible. Selling low and getting dicey stuff in return gets old after a while.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I'd rather have seen them eat the whole thing and pick up something better than a Lillibridge to go with Stewart. Or, just dump the player and get as much salary relief as possible. Selling low and getting dicey stuff in return gets old after a while.

Getting Lillibridge allows the Sox to cover the loss of their backup infielder, and provides BobbyV with an actual pinch-runner better than McDonald. Unfortunately, that probably means him actually doing more subbing for Gonzalez or Ortiz than I'd prefer.

The real "prize" has to be Stewart, but like I said elsewhere: if he can't regain the 4 mph on his fastball that allows him to pitch in the mid-90's and which he had when he was a B+ prospect for Toronto, I don't really see the upside.

[Dalton Jones]

I think the guy is toast. Everything he got he earned through hard work and hustle. That carried him through several seasons where he produced above his talent level. Age and injuries have exerted an inexorable gravitational force on his career arc. Thanks for the memories.....

[SMU_Sox]

So let's make a few assumptions. 1) This was the best offer out there. 2) Youk is going to be a mediocre fielder and below average bat for his position for the rest of the year. 3) Ben assumed that the value he would get from trading him now (which includes intangible clubhouse chemistry issues) exceeded the value they would get from trading him later to, perhaps, capitalize on despiration.

1 is not really debateable unless we know other offers. But I think it is safe to assume they got the best deal on the table for him today.

2 is debateable. I think, like many of you, that he is a sub 800 OPS hitter and mediocre at best fielder going forward. That's not to say he would not be a valuable bench player even if that role made him unhappy.

3 is where I have my issues. The Sox and Indians are in contention for the AL Central. I think the closer to the deadline you get the more teams would have overpaid for Youk. Unless Bobby the fifth and the FO felt like they had to trade him now I am skeptical that the Sox maxinized his value by trading him today.

D. Not that Youk is all that and a bag of potato chips but they didn't get much back and sold early.

[riboflav]

I gave this trade an "F". What do the Sox do if Middlebrooks gets injured? Punto? They have no viable replacement if WMB goes down for an extended period of time. And If Gonzo goes down, we have to hope Lars can do the job, but he is unproven. If we are paying almost all of Youk's salary anyway, I would prefer he stay with the Sox and be the uber-corner infield backup who can pinch hit and give WMB and Gonzo and day off every now and then. WMB will need some days off to keep fresh, too. This trade seriously weakened the Sox for 2012.

Youk is not an asshole. He may be a difficult personality and he is intense, but an asshole he is not. He does lots of charitable work and is a good teammate. Just last week, in an interview a couple of days after he dropped a fly ball, Kalish mention that Youk among other had come over to him afterward and gave him encouragement. He specifically said that Youk had been his friend since he join the organization. All indications are that Youk is a very hard worker. That he cares about the team and about winning. He played hard every day. He is the kind of player we should want. He is coming back from injury and has not been as productive as we all would have hoped, but I don't think he is done. He will bounce back, just like Papi did, and will have several productive seasons.

edit to fix typos.

This is why Youk will need to be tarnished and destroyed by anonymous sources over the next several weeks or perhaps at the end of the season after the Sox don't make the playoffs. The narrative must be that he was such a cancer, the FO really had no choice. The cancer outweighed any benefit on the field that he could provide.

[lexrageorge]

I can't imagine that the team turned down better offers, so my assumption is that this is what they were going to get. Maybe they would have gotten marginally more the week of 7/25-31. Something seemed to be broken, and likely beyond repair, between Youks and Valentine.

I give it C-; the return should have been something that helped the team more, either now or down the road. But I'm skeptical that Youkilis would suddenly return to even the 0.800 OPS level for a long stretch; the body looked too broken down, the bat speed too slow.

[Harry Hooper]

Hey, I suggested trading Youks last offseason.

I have no problem with the Sox dumping Youks if he was that much of a problem in a reserve role. I trust that Bobby and Ben can figure that much out better than we can from the outside.

What I don't understand is dumping him to an AL contender for next to nothing in return and paying almost his entire salary.

If that was the best value you could get for him, don't you just dump him to the Dodgers or Diamondbacks for absolutely nothing? Avoiding the possibility that this makes the wild card race even 1% harder for the (real) Sox would override whatever value Stewart and Lillibridge add, IMHO.

Pretty much agree, so I gave the trade a "D".