122 replies to this topic

[TheoShmeo]

This is absolutely reeeeeediculous. As Ras metioned players have lives. How many FAs are going to make the decision not to come to Boston because of the asshole media? I don't blame Beckett or Papi in the least for being pissed off. You don't "reform" them by hiding in your house and avoiding any public life. That's insane. If I were Buchholz the next interview I'd give would be the last one. Likewise for the rest of the players. The media would learn pretty quickly the cost of being jerks.

Let's be clear. It doesn't actually matter for all the obvious reasons. SJH and others can declare it a total non-story all they want, but the fact remains that it's obvious that the Boston media will run with something like this 100% of the time. Whether we like the media doing that or not, dealing with the media is part of the overall mix and waiting a few days to be seen out in public at night would have made Clay's life a bit easier.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 29 June 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Let's be clear. It doesn't actually matter for all the obvious reasons. SJH and others can declare it a total non-story all they want, but the fact remains that it's obvious that the Boston media will run with something like this 100% of the time. Whether we like the media doing that or not, dealing with the media is part of the overall mix and waiting a few days to be seen out in public at night would have made Clay's life a bit easier.

Then it's our job, as reasonable people, to declare the media members running with this as shit-stirring idiots and ignore them accordingly.

We don't have to be led around the nose looking for outrage, ya know.

[JohntheBaptist]

Honestly, TheoShmeo, you're just wrong. Yes, as currently consituted they will run with this 100% of the time, but if I were running the Red Sox, I'd tell them to listen to what the team deems acceptable and to stop caring--really stop caring--what these idiots say and write about you.

This isn't just a non-story, its almost embarrassing its being talked about.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I mean, look at Gary Tanguay here:

http://www.csnne.com...34&feedID=10430

It's tough to act in such a childish, bitchy manner that DAN EFFING SHAUGHESSY is laughing at you and telling you you're way overboard, but Tanguay manages to do so.

You can't tell me that his reaction is anything other than trolling his listeners for attention.

[lexrageorge]

Let's be clear. It doesn't actually matter for all the obvious reasons. SJH and others can declare it a total non-story all they want, but the fact remains that it's obvious that the Boston media will run with something like this 100% of the time. Whether we like the media doing that or not, dealing with the media is part of the overall mix and waiting a few days to be seen out in public at night would have made Clay's life a bit easier.

By your logic, if Buchholz was spotted having a free sample at Costco, and the mediots decided to make that a story in and of itself, then it would be the player's fault for going to Costco, and the team's fault for not realizing that going to Costco would cause such a media uproar.

As SJH said, when the mediots are living up to their moniker, it's time to call bullshit on them. None of the athletes from Boston's other major sports teams get treated with such nonsense.

Personally, if anything, I would love Lucchino & Co. to get up and tell the media to shut the hell up and leave the players alone for once.

[TheoShmeo]

Costco isn't the same thing as a casino, of course.

I think there's a kernel of truth -- which is being blown up into a ten mile wide corn field -- in what the media is saying. If my son or daughter had spent days in the hospital after treatment for an ailment that was as scary as Buchholz's, I'd want them to take it easy for a few days. What I want isn't the point, but I think the media's context is roughly that perspective, and the already existing panoply of the Beckett story, and the media is predictably running with the low hanging fruit of Clay going to a place where people drink and party after his hospital stay.

I'm not suggesting that Clay go into indefinite hibernation or anything of the sort. And I get that he's an adult and has a life. I just think that, all things considered, laying relatively low for a few days would have been smart.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 29 June 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Costco isn't the same thing as a casino, of course.

I think there's a kernel of truth -- which is being blown up into a ten mile wide corn field -- in what the media is saying. If my son or daughter had spent days in the hospital after treatment for an ailment that was as scary as Buchholz's, I'd want them to take it easy for a few days. What I want isn't the point, but I think the media's context is roughly that perspective, and the already existing panoply of the Beckett story, and is running with the low hanging fruit of Clay going to a place where people drink and party after his hospital stay.

I'm not suggesting that Clay go into indefinite hibernation or anything of the sort. And I get that he's an adult and has a life. I just think that, all things considered, laying relatively low for a few days would have been smart.

He lost only 3 pounds in the hospital. He's feeling better, and instead of lounging around his place doing nothing (which presumably he did quite a bit of in the hospital), he got team permission to go to a charity event and he didn't drink while there.

Again, I can't see where the issue is here:

- team permission
- no alcohol
- charity event, not a strip joint or a club or a bar or even a restaurant.

We are smart enough to judge for ourselves when the media is acting like a bunch of trolling douchebags. This is one of those times.

[joe dokes]

As SJH said, when the mediots are living up to their moniker, it's time to call bullshit on them. None of the athletes from Boston's other major sports teams get treated with such nonsense.

Personally, if anything, I would love Lucchino & Co. to get up and tell the media to shut the hell up and leave the players alone for once.

This.
If you live in Prague in 1969, maybe you hide your Dubcek bumper sticker.
In no sane world should a person in Buchholz's situation conform normal acceptable & commendable behavior to standards set by people whose criticism starts with "He must have known we'd make a big deal out of it, so he should have done something different."


Not so much "leave them alone," but stop acting like 12-year olds who giggle when they hear the word "abreast." ("pool party" "casino" and "vodka company" were the naughty words this time).

And it will take LL and some players to call them on it in a specific way, not like Ortiz did, which left it open to speculation. ("Maybe its his contract."). It'll have to be more like, "Ya know Gerry, I heard your bit the other day about Clay, and I gotta tell you, it made me wonder if you'd been eating paint chips or something. The kid was at a charity function where he helped to raise $x thousands of dollars for [something good], and all he had to do was sit around and chat with folks for an hour. That you would criticize something like that suggests that you really have too much time on your hands and maybe you need to get out and do more. Just because you're on radio doesn't mean you can't occasionally be reasonable. Now tell me again, what was your problem with his actions."

[TheoShmeo]

We are smart enough to judge for ourselves when the media is acting like a bunch of trolling douchebags. This is one of those times.

You're setting up a false dichotomy. We agree that they are acting thusly.

I just think that they would run would this was entirely predictable and having to curb one's behavior for a day or two post-emergence from the hospital is not a big price to pay.

[JohntheBaptist]

You're setting up a false dichotomy. We agree that they are acting thusly.

I just think that they would run would this was entirely predictable and having to curb one's behavior for a day or two post-emergence from the hospital is not a big price to pay.

It absolutely is when you're also then endorsing/ ceding to this sort of commentary and behavior. In fact, were I Buchholz and somehow had foreknowledge this would be the reaction, nothing on planet earth could have stopped me from attending. Seriously, the Red Sox should hold a meeting and say that "media shitstorms" mean nothing to the team anymore and as long as a player is on the same page with the team, none of the rest of it means anything.

You're coming at this with a "shitstorms are bad" frame of mind, which is fair, but I think personally part of the point is that the entire breadth of the cycle of these stories, including this part, need to be ridiculed with ambivalence and outright ignoring.

Edited by JohntheBaptist, 29 June 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You're setting up a false dichotomy. We agree that they are acting thusly.

I just think that they would run would this was entirely predictable and having to curb one's behavior for a day or two post-emergence from the hospital is not a big price to pay.

"Curb one's behavior"? Come on. He did nothing wrong! There's no behavior to curb! It was a fuckin' charity event!

[lexrageorge]

You're setting up a false dichotomy. We agree that they are acting thusly.

I just think that they would run would this was entirely predictable and having to curb one's behavior for a day or two post-emergence from the hospital is not a big price to pay.

Again, extending your logic: the team should allow behavior standards to be set by the paragon of virtue that is the local sports media?

What's next: because some wack-jobs in Saudi Arabia are upset about how US women are allowed to work with men, we should tell women to stay inside for a few days until they calm down?

[joe dokes]

You're setting up a false dichotomy. We agree that they are acting thusly.

I just think that they would run would this was entirely predictable and having to curb one's behavior for a day or two post-emergence from the hospital is not a big price to pay.

Other than bowing to the pressure of stupid, puerile (and not dangerous) people, you assume that "a day or two" would matter. It wouldn't. As long as he was on the DL it would be enough for Lowell Thomas-level announcements that Clay was pissing on our dead grandfathers' pennant-less graves.

Edited by joe dokes, 29 June 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[TheoShmeo]

"Curb one's behavior"? Come on. He did nothing wrong! There's no behavior to curb! It was a fuckin' charity event!

JTB makes a good point that I am coming at this from the perspective that it's good to avoid shit storms. And his point that the Sox just shouldn't care and should effectively fight back resonates too.

But effectively yelling doesn't make your point and "curbing one's behavior" is obviously a synonym for waiting for a day or two before being seen in a place like a casino or a bar. Yes, it was a charity event, but it wasn't in a church or some other less easily picked on place.

I guess I do think it's better to avoid controversy when it's easy to do so and that "controlling" the press or even trying to by some kind team-wide edict is unlikely to succeed.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

JTB makes a good point that I am coming at this from the perspective that it's good to avoid shit storms. And his point that the Sox just shouldn't care and should effectively fight back resonates too.

But effectively yelling doesn't make your point and "curbing one's behavior" is obviously a synonym for waiting for a day or two before being seen in a place like a casino or a bar. Yes, it was a charity event, but it wasn't in a church or some other less easily picked on place.

I guess I do think it's better to avoid controversy when it's easy to do so and that "controlling" the press or even trying to by some kind team-wide edict is unlikely to succeed.

It's reasonable to avoid controversy by avoiding situations where it would arise. Had Clay gone to a peeler or out binge drinking or to a race track to get behind the wheel I'd agree with you. But there's not one reasonable player, IMO, who would think that going to a charity event after getting the team's permission and avoiding alcohol while there would cause any sort of controversy whatsoever.

Papi is right: this town's sports media sucks and they players should be tired of the bullshit.

[YTF]

I mean, look at Gary Tanguay here:

http://www.csnne.com...34&feedID=10430

It's tough to act in such a childish, bitchy manner that DAN EFFING SHAUGHESSY is laughing at you and telling you you're way overboard, but Tanguay manages to do so.

You can't tell me that his reaction is anything other than trolling his listeners for attention.

Caught this act last night on TV and was actually waiting for Merloni to call Tanguay a fucking douche. I get the message. I get the idea that this may not have been the best idea given the recent past, but it's really a non story. I wish he hadn't have done it only for the fact that the aftermath just gives athletes pause to think twice about coming to Boston.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

I've heard more than one commenter - Dale Arnold comes to mind - spend a good amount of time making the argument that's not unlike Theo's above: I don't personally have a problem with what Clay did, but I think he should have not done it to avoid any potential criticism. Then they go around in circles about whether it was, indeed, a dumb thing to do, decide that it wasn't, then decide that even though it wasn't dumb, he shouldn't have done it because someone might think it was dumb. Then they usually talk about how all the readers/listeners have no problem with it.

What drives me crazy is just how disingenuous that is by Arnold, et al. Essentially, they want to talk about the incident, participate in the frenzy, but keep their hands clean. "I mean, I don't have a problem with it, but you have to have an idea that it would become a big deal!" Well, no. You can look at a situation, make a determination that there's nothing wrong with it, and then just do it. How some complete and total moron might react doesn't have to be part of your decision-making process.

And you, media person, don't have to talk about something just because some other mouth-breather on some other channel is talking about it. You can talk about something else. But they're all so terrified that someone else has the hot-button controversy du jour that they all just play along anyway. It's embarrassing.

Hey Dale (and the variety of others in the same vein), if you don't think it's worthy of discussion, don't fucking discuss it.

Edit: Perhaps a portion of this should be moved into the media forum....

Edited by MyDaughterLovesTomGordon, 29 June 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[JohntheBaptist]

I've heard more than one commenter - Dale Arnold comes to mind - spend a good amount of time making the argument that's not unlike Theo's above: I don't personally have a problem with what Clay did, but I think he should have not done it to avoid any potential criticism. Then they go around in circles about whether it was, indeed, a dumb thing to do, decide that it wasn't, then decide that even though it wasn't dumb, he shouldn't have done it because someone might think it was dumb. Then they usually talk about how all the readers/listeners have no problem with it.

What drives me crazy is just how disingenuous that is by Arnold, et al. Essentially, they want to talk about the incident, participate in the frenzy, but keep their hands clean. "I mean, I don't have a problem with it, but you have to have an idea that it would become a big deal!" Well, no. You can look at a situation, make a determination that there's nothing wrong with it, and then just do it. How some complete and total moron might react doesn't have to be part of your decision-making process.

And you, media person, don't have to talk about something just because some other mouth-breather on some other channel is talking about it. You can talk about something else. But they're all so terrified that someone else has the hot-button controversy du jour that they all just play along anyway. It's embarrassing.

Hey Dale (and the variety of others in the same vein), if you don't think it's worthy of discussion, don't fucking discuss it.

Edit: Perhaps a portion of this should be moved into the media forum....

This is exactly right. Its like whenever any one of them say, "well, the media has been all over this..."

YOU'RE THE MEDIA!

[NDame616]

I agree, this is a non-story, but from the (painful) 3 minutes I've listened to the mediots covering this, it appears it's the location, a casino, that appears to be what he did "wrong".

If it was a charity event in Greg Hill's living room, or the local church, the media probably wouldn't jump on it, or not as much.

But it was at a CASINO!!! Where there's booze, and gambling, and fun! (and sponsored by a Vodka company)

[Otis Foster]

It's reasonable to avoid controversy by avoiding situations where it would arise. Had Clay gone to a peeler or out binge drinking or to a race track to get behind the wheel I'd agree with you. But there's not one reasonable player, IMO, who would think that going to a charity event after getting the team's permission and avoiding alcohol while there would cause any sort of controversy whatsoever.

Papi is right: this town's sports media sucks and they players should be tired of the bullshit.

Case submitted. Any FA in his right mind would avoid coming here unless the RS were willing to pay an enormous premium. These pricks love bad news, and when it doesn't exist, they're masterful at creating it. ("When pressed on the issue, X denied his involvement in the sex scandal, but had no explanation for the enormous loss of life in the Javanese tidal wave.")

[AimingForYoko]

I mean, look at Gary Tanguay here:

http://www.csnne.com...34&feedID=10430

It's tough to act in such a childish, bitchy manner that DAN EFFING SHAUGHESSY is laughing at you and telling you you're way overboard, but Tanguay manages to do so.

You can't tell me that his reaction is anything other than trolling his listeners for attention.

Good lord.

Fuck the fuck off Tanguay. I have given Clay shit for his earlier game appearances but this is just a bullshit story. If he was in some strip club partying it up like Marchand, then yeah, we might talk then.

But he can really fuck off with that "lifestyle choice". Some peoples guts just get screwed up, shit happens.

[Lose Remerswaal]

Rough first inning at Pawtucket today with two walks, but settled down for the rest of his forty or so pitch outing, ending with Bob Montgomery (still one of the better "color guys") telling us his next start will be on Saturday night in Tampa Bay.

[mabrowndog]

Rough first inning at Pawtucket today with two walks, but settled down for the rest of his forty or so pitch outing, ending with Bob Montgomery (still one of the better "color guys") telling us his next start will be on Saturday night in Tampa Bay.

I missed the first inning, but I thought Clay looked great in the second. He had all his pitches working with excellent command.

And yeah, Monty's commentary on his change-ups was really insightful. He never got that detailed on the x & o stuff back when he was calling Sox games on TV38 in the 80s/early 90s.