97 replies to this topic

[RedOctober3829]

Bard said he's no longer a starter. He believes he's back where he belongs as a reliever. He called Cherington to tell him. Both agree.

That solves the logjam in the rotation and potentially makes the bullpen stronger if he returns to form. A win-win for both sides but a failed experiment indeed. Hopefully, it won't have long-term effects on his arm.

https://twitter.com/...268784397336576

[glennhoffmania]

So are they about to have three guys who think they should be closing? It'll be interesting to see how the pen shakes out in a few weeks.

[Manramsclan]

So are they about to have three guys who think they should be closing? It'll be interesting to see how the pen shakes out in a few weeks.

Who is the third guy? Melancon?

[RedOctober3829]

Who is the third guy? Melancon?

No. Bard, Bailey, and Aceves I'd say he means. If it's not Aceves, then yes Melancon but I thought he came here under the premise that he'd be the primary set-up man to Bailey.

[TheoShmeo]

Who is the third guy? Melancon?

Bailey.

But as of now, Bard isn't getting many people out. Until he fixes that, he's not an anything in Boston.

[Al Zarilla]

So are they about to have three guys who think they should be closing? It'll be interesting to see how the pen shakes out in a few weeks.

Maybe Bard enjoyed the role of relief pitcher for the highest leverage situations, or whatever it's called?

[AimingForYoko]

So are they about to have three guys who think they should be closing? It'll be interesting to see how the pen shakes out in a few weeks.

By three are you including Aceves? Because he also thinks he can start. And pitch 4 days in a row. Also, Bard didn't say closer.

But good on Bard for coming this to conclusion. Hopefully he and management will stick to it and not try to screw with his arm. And hopefully he won't focus on anything but throwing now.

Edited by AimingForYoko, 22 June 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[trekfan55]

Bard did not really say he should be the closer, just that he is no longer a starter. He has ways to go before he can really aspire to be the closer at this point. And for everyone that said from the beginning that Bard should not be a starter (Bobby V was among these people) it looks like they were 100% right.

[RedOctober3829]

Bard did not really say he should be the closer, just that he is no longer a starter. He has ways to go before he can really aspire to be the closer at this point. And for everyone that said from the beginning that Bard should not be a starter (Bobby V was among these people) it looks like they were 100% right.

I'll readily admit I was wrong about Bard as a starter. I thought his skills, along with a willingness to throw a 3rd pitch such as his changeup, would translate into a good starter. Oh well, it was worth a try at short money. Let's see if he can regain his velocity and control in Pawtucket and go from there.

[glennhoffmania]

Ok to clarify, I meant Bard, Aceves and Bailey. And I know Bard didn't say he was the closer, but I'd assume that at some point he'd like to be. Not many guys aspire to be a Jamesian relief ace for their whole career.

[greek_gawd_of_walks]

The first step is acceptance. Good on Bard. We can all go forward from here.

[Jed Zeppelin]

I was very much in favor of the experiment, but I'm fine with it being over without significant harm inflicted on the team or his arm. The climb to at least being an average starter (which would have been very valuable) was tougher for him than I expected.

Relievers are always in such high demand at the deadline, and Bard back to the pen gives the Sox the option to sell a bit (hopefully getting an overpayment in return) without punting the season at all.

[trekfan55]

Bard: "I know I can be a good starter, but I already know I’m a great reliever."

McDonald

Very interesting quote.

I think once Bailey comes back the closer role will be his sooner rather than later. Aceves may yet be a starter or go back to his old role and come back as a starter next year.

[Al Zarilla]

Aceves should get the Red Sox equivalent of the Willie Mac award (spirit, leadership, do whatever it takes, etc). Do the Sox have anything like that?

[mauidano]

Bard will end up a long reliever/spot starter. He'll say whatever "THEY" want him to say to get back up to the Bigs. Really, you can't have enough pitching. Bard can do it all. He'll be an Aceves type guy. However, he won't figure into the closer's role at the moment.

[Manramsclan]

Of course, Bailey. Total brain fart on my part.

Let's say it takes two weeks for Bard to return to form(probably wishful thinking), and around the same time for Bailey. Assuming Beckett returns from the DL to start that leaves the following in the pen in no particular order:

Bailey
Aceves
Bard
Padilla
Melancon
Miller
Morales

Odd Men Out:
Atchison
Albers
Mortenson

That top seven looks pretty damn good, and those odd men out look fungible enough to me. Maybe Albers & Mortenson have some trade value in a package with Youk & Nava.

Don't look know but the Red Sox are starting to get reinforcements. Things are going to get really interesting if they can keep up this winning until both the bullpen and the OF are restored.

[OCD SS]

Goldstein mentions on "Up & In" that prospects are often left in positions that everyone knows they can't hold so they can figure it out for themselves. Bard wanted to start, and it was a good gamble to take; its better that it was his decision just like it was better that it was Pap's decision.

If he can get straightened out and be a relief ace to Ace/ Baily's closer then I like our 'pen.

So here's hoping that if down the line the Sox come to him with a long term deal the sides are able to work something out.

[Al Zarilla]

Of course, Bailey. Total brain fart on my part.

Let's say it takes two weeks for Bard to return to form(probably wishful thinking), and around the same time for Bailey. Assuming Beckett returns from the DL to start that leaves the following in the pen in no particular order:

Bailey
Aceves
Bard
Padilla
Melancon
Miller
Morales

Odd Men Out:
Atchison
Albers
Mortenson

That top seven looks pretty damn good, and those odd men out look fungible enough to me. Maybe Albers & Mortenson have some trade value in a package with Youk & Nava.

Don't look know but the Red Sox are starting to get reinforcements. Things are going to get really interesting if they can keep up this winning until both the bullpen and the OF are restored.

Atchison odd man out? He could sue for wrongful discharge if he were let go.

[bosockboy]

I'd say it's impossible to remove Atchison from the pen....he's been arguably one of the five best relievers in the AL. One of Padilla/Melancon would be my odd man out....and this doesn't account for Hill coming back.

[AimingForYoko]

Of course, Bailey. Total brain fart on my part.

Let's say it takes two weeks for Bard to return to form(probably wishful thinking), and around the same time for Bailey. Assuming Beckett returns from the DL to start that leaves the following in the pen in no particular order:

Bailey
Aceves
Bard
Padilla
Melancon
Miller
Morales

Odd Men Out:
Atchison
Albers
Mortenson

That top seven looks pretty damn good, and those odd men out look fungible enough to me. Maybe Albers & Mortenson have some trade value in a package with Youk & Nava.

Don't look know but the Red Sox are starting to get reinforcements. Things are going to get really interesting if they can keep up this winning until both the bullpen and the OF are restored.

Atchinson??? Quoi?

And I don't particularly trust Melancon until he pitches in hi-lev outings, and I will never fully trust Miller with anything.

[Ed Hillel]

Bard will end up a long reliever/spot starter. He'll say whatever "THEY" want him to say to get back up to the Bigs. Really, you can't have enough pitching. Bard can do it all. He'll be an Aceves type guy. However, he won't figure into the closer's role at the moment.

But he can't, which is exactly why he's back in the bullpen. He's going to be a one-inning guy, hopefully getting back up to 98 on the gun consistently, or he'll likely be a nothing guy. Aceves and Morales are really the only guys who have shown they can work in multiple roles thus far.

[Rudy Pemberton]

What's Bard's long term future with the Sox? Closer? What about Bailey, Aceves, Melancon? Bard is no longer that cheap, so I'd the plan is for him to continue to be a set up guy, isn't he, or Aceves, potential trade bait?

[drbretto]

What's Bard's long term future with the Sox? Closer? What about Bailey, Aceves, Melancon? Bard is no longer that cheap, so I'd the plan is for him to continue to be a set up guy, isn't he, or Aceves, potential trade bait?

I think they're more concerned with the short term than the long term at this point. Let's see if he gets it back as a any kind of reliever and take it from there.

[Sprowl]

Bard can now go back to being a slider-fastball pitcher. In his first month of starting, before his fastball command disintegrated entirely, he was getting lots of swinging strikes when he threw 40 sliders per game. It's a real knockout pitch.

Now, instead of trying to nibble with his fastball, he can throw it middle-middle and rely on its natural movement to carry it out of meatball territory.

Bard seems to have morphed into Brad Lidge, who can throw 96 on the fastball, but only really gets outs on his slider. Their sliders have very different movement, but equal potency in missing bats.

[fineyoungarm]

Atchinson??? Quoi?

And I don't particularly trust Melancon until he pitches in hi-lev outings, and I will never fully trust Miller with anything.

I continue to be 21st century schizoid man about whether this team can get to 90 wins. In my "they can" psychotic state, no pitchers are being dealt. The only place Atch is going just might be the All Star Game (if those mob connections don't come back to haunt him). Miller - lefty. Period. Melancon - I'm with you. Bailey, who knows?

IF Bard comes around - at least a month??? When he's back, he's going to get a shot at set up man.

But with the starters continuing not to go deep with any consistency, there may be plenty of room for all these guys to have meaningful roles in the pen.

[bosockboy]

I'd say Bard is trade bait this winter for sure. For the short term, we could have a devastating bullpen by end of July.

[DaubachmanTurnerOD]

... the pen in no particular order:

Bailey
Aceves
Bard
Padilla
Melancon
Miller
Morales

Odd Men Out:
Atchison
Albers
Mortenson

This list doesn't account for the experiment of converting Morales into a starter... (The king is dead. Long live the king!)

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

This list doesn't account for the experiment of converting Morales into a starter... (The king is dead. Long live the king!)

And where does Mark Prior fit into all of this?

Almost makes me think that on the 5th day, instead of throwing a regular starter, the Sox should just trot out four or five relievers - to make sure everyone is getting enough work.

[JimBoSox9]

Almost makes me think that on the 5th day, instead of throwing a regular starter, the Sox should just trot out four or five relievers - to make sure everyone is getting enough work.

AKA the 'Jimy Williams dream SP'

[Rasputin]

AKA the 'Jimy Williams dream SP'

Jimy Williams deserves a lot of shit for a lot of things but how he ran his bullpen is not one of them.

[Van Everyman]

I was very much in favor of the experiment, but I'm fine with it being over without significant harm inflicted on the team or his arm. The climb to at least being an average starter (which would have been very valuable) was tougher for him than I expected.

I was in favor of his experiment too -- but that's because I thought he could be a lot more than an "average" starter. I thought he'd be closer to Lester than, say, some shlub with a mid-4 ERA.

Why would an average starter have been worth it?

[crystalline]

So are they about to have three guys who think they should be closing? It'll be interesting to see how the pen shakes out in a few weeks.

Could be interesting. If I were Bard, I would try to get back to being a lights-out one-inning guy, and then after that, for the rest of the year mix in the change and stretch out my outings - try to get Bobby V to start giving me 2 inning hi-lev outings. Maybe we end up with a long-ish Jamesian ace and Bard ends up backing into being a starter in a year. Would be fun to watch.

[86spike]

Could be interesting. If I were Bard, I would try to get back to being a lights-out one-inning guy, and then after that, for the rest of the year mix in the change and stretch out my outings - try to get Bobby V to start giving me 2 inning hi-lev outings. Maybe we end up with a long-ish Jamesian ace and Bard ends up backing into being a starter in a year. Would be fun to watch.

I'd just focus on getting back to being dominate for 3 outs and then try to either earn Boston closer job after this season or get traded to a team to close there.

[RGREELEY33]

I'd say Bard is trade bait this winter for sure. For the short term, we could have a devastating bullpen by end of July.

Why wait for winter? Bard for Garza. Get 'er done.

[lexrageorge]

The experiment was worthwhile; young and effective starting pitchers aren't easy to come by. Derek Lowe didn't become a full time starter until he was 29. It didn't work; but had Buchholz and Lester been better, Bard's struggles would have been less costly.

[Alcohol&Overcalls]

I was in favor of his experiment too -- but that's because I thought he could be a lot more than an "average" starter. I thought he'd be closer to Lester than, say, some shlub with a mid-4 ERA.

Why would an average starter have been worth it?

Because every year, a team overpays for an average starter? There aren't that many of them, to be honest, and 200IP of average work is extremely valuable.

[veritas]

IF Bard gets back to being Bard of the past two years, they'll have an incredibly deep bullpen.

I don't necessarily think they should do it, but if any team was suited to the four-man rotation the Rockies are dicking around with, it would be the Red Sox. Get 80 pitches out of your starter and play matchups the rest of the game. They don't have any lights out guys in the bullpen (except for the namesake of this thread when he's at his best), but they have a ton of solid to very solid relief pitchers, including 2 righties and 2 lefties who have had big platoon splits over their careers.

Edited by veritas, 23 June 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[teddywingman]

It really is astounding how many of you thought that he would be a good starter.

The outcome of this experiment was one of the easiest things to predict in the history of Boston sports. It really makes me wonder...

[Pumpsie]

Jimy Williams deserves a lot of shit for a lot of things but how he ran his bullpen is not one of them.

His lineups and the guys he wanted on his bench were totally, and frustratingly whacked out but he had the best timing regarding when to pull a pitcher I've ever seen.

[LogansDad]

What's Bard's long term future with the Sox? Closer? What about Bailey, Aceves, Melancon? Bard is no longer that cheap, so I'd the plan is for him to continue to be a set up guy, isn't he, or Aceves, potential trade bait?

This is an interesting question, at least to me, especially with all the rumors surrounding Youkilis. What does the team need right now, in order to compete this year, and will adding Bard to the mix get it for them?

Personally, I think the team is in pretty good shape... the starters seem to be rounding into form, the bullpen has been good to great for two months, and even though they made Jurrjens look like Verlander tonight the offense isn't that bad off. What if the trade of Youk + Bard + *cash* nets them, say, Aaron Hill from the D-Backs, who are probably a little ways off from truly competing and could use a cost controlled pitcher like Bard (though in my mind, Kubel would be who I wanted from them if I were the Sox... but i wanted them to sign him in the off season...).

I'm sure there are other, and better, deals out there that someone can come up with, but does anyone else think that adding Bard to Youk would make an attractive enough offer to get something significant in return?

[Drek717]

I'm sure there are other, and better, deals out there that someone can come up with, but does anyone else think that adding Bard to Youk would make an attractive enough offer to get something significant in return?

That sure sounds like a sell low on both Bard and Youk. With Youk it makes some sense because he isn't performing, Middlebrooks is, and we can only play one guy at 3B.

Bard on the other hand will be part of a 6 or 7 man bullpen. When he was a lights out reliever he could have returned a king's ransom for us in a deadline deal. There is no reason to think he can become that guy again. He's also still young and under arb for 2 or 3 more years. We should view him along with Bailey as the backbone of the bullpen long term. At that point if one of Hill or Miller and one of Mortensen, Tazawa, and Melancon give us a quality lefty and a 3rd quality righty this bullpen could be real good for a long time.

If we're looking for a deadline deal with a team in full GFIN mode we should look to move the 36 year old Scott Atchison who is completely destroying his previous career numbers. He looks like a stud this year and is super cheap with no longer term commitment but still has some arb time left. He should net at least one low minors guy with a real shot at the bigs.

[Toe Nash]

It really is astounding how many of you thought that he would be a good starter.

The outcome of this experiment was one of the easiest things to predict in the history of Boston sports. It really makes me wonder...

Congratulations, you're smarter than everyone! If only Cherington and his well-paid, smart staff had listened to you. Not like Bard was getting a historical amount of swinging strikes after 4 starts or looked promising until he lost his fastball command or anything.

Is this Bobby Valentine's account?

[maufman]

I was in favor of his experiment too -- but that's because I thought he could be a lot more than an "average" starter. I thought he'd be closer to Lester than, say, some shlub with a mid-4 ERA. Why would an average starter have been worth it?

Because a pitcher who can consistently deliver 180-200 league-average innings is, paradoxically, an above-average starting pitcher. Seriously, there are something like 150 SPs in The Show at any given time, and nowhere near 75 of them meet this criterion.

[Dick Pole Upside]

I was in favor of his experiment too -- but that's because I thought he could be a lot more than an "average" starter. I thought he'd be closer to Lester than, say, some shlub with a mid-4 ERA.

That IS 2012 Lester...

[fineyoungarm]

Why wait for winter? Bard for Garza. Get 'er done.

Only if they can't get Garza for Youk. Or Dempster. Or Castro.

[Lose Remerswaal]

He may no longer be a reliever, either

Pitching against Charlotte on Friday night, Bard lasted just one-third of an inning, giving up a hit and two runs. His command continued to be a big problem, as he walked three and hit a batter.
Bard has a 7.15 ERA in nine outings for Pawtucket. He was optioned by the Red Sox on June 5.

[LogansDad]

Maybe he can play the outfield....

[someoneanywhere]

He'll be all right. Mentally, he just has to accept what he says he is -- that is, he has to get back and remain in a reliever's mentality, essentially forgetting the experiment. That's easier to say than to do, but once he does it, and once he truly accepts that he has to work his way back to the big leagues (a trick also of the mind: he has to approach it as if he had never been there, not as if he was down in Pawtucket to work on some things), he will be back.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

He'll be all right. Mentally, he just has to accept what he says he is -- that is, he has to get back and remain in a reliever's mentality, essentially forgetting the experiment. That's easier to say than to do, but once he does it, and once he truly accepts that he has to work his way back to the big leagues (a trick also of the mind: he has to approach it as if he had never been there, not as if he was down in Pawtucket to work on some things), he will be back.

I expect he'll be back no earlier than 2013, though. The bullpen is pitching shockingly well without him, Bailey, or Papelbon in it. It may be frustrating for him to have lost his spot, but hopefully he will come back strong.

Assuming, of course, he isn't traded. I would suspect Bard is the trade chip the Sox would most like to move at the deadline -- pitching coaches throughout baseball must be salivating at the chance to "fix" him to be their closer, while other organizations might be more willing to resume the starting pitcher experiment...

[yecul]

I'd expect a big injury before a trade.