112 replies to this topic

[Spaulding Smails]

FWIW, Haggs says Thomas has waived his NTC.

Joe Haggerty ‏@HackswithHaggs

Peter Chiarelli said Tim Thomas waived his no-trade clause allowing the Bruins to deal him prior to July 1. Sounds like he'd be ok w/trade

Edit: According to Fluto, teams near the cap floor have inquired.

Edited by Spaulding Smails, 22 June 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Bags of pucks everywhere just became very nervous.

[FL4WL3SS]

[FL4WL3SS]

Although I'll be pretty pissed if we have to give up an asset to move him. Either another team takes his contract and sends back a middling prospect or we don't make a trade.

I'd rather hold onto him for the season than give up some value with him.

[RedOctober3829]

Does Thomas get traded tonight?

[Marbleheader]

Tim Thomas has waived his no-movement clause. The clause is in place until July 1, when the fourth and final year of Thomas’s contract begins.

Several teams have inquired about Thomas’s availability. GM Peter Chiarelli said those calls have been in relation to the cap floor, which currently projects to be approximately $54 million in 2012-13. Even if Thomas doesn’t play next season, an acquiring team could apply his $5 million annual cap hit toward its total number. Thomas is due $3 million in salary.

http://www.boston.co...homas_waiv.html

[SpacemanzGerbil]

I know there aren't enough cases like this one with Thomas to draw any conclusions about the value of an empty cap inflating contract like this but I'm not sure why the entirety of the internet is convinced that if Thomas sticks to his word about taking the season off, the Bruins won't get jack for him in return. The only parallel I can make is the NBA draft, where low first rounders are routinely forked over for $3M in cash. So, why wouldn't Thomas' contract be highly desirable to frugal NHL franchise owners? Acquiring him would allow the owner to save a $5M cash outlay next season. I can see why a GM/President type of person would dismiss it out of hand, as it likely hurts the on ice product. With the slew of underfinanced franchises in the league, is there really very little interest amongst the owners in saving $5M next season?

It doesn't make much sense to me.

[FL4WL3SS]

I know there aren't enough cases like this one with Thomas to draw any conclusions about the value of an empty cap inflating contract like this but I'm not sure why the entirety of the internet is convinced that if Thomas sticks to his word about taking the season off, the Bruins won't get jack for him in return. The only parallel I can make is the NBA draft, where low first rounders are routinely forked over for $3M in cash. So, why wouldn't Thomas' contract be highly desirable to frugal NHL franchise owners? Acquiring him would allow the owner to save a $5M cash outlay next season. I can see why a GM/President type of person would dismiss it out of hand, as it likely hurts the on ice product. With the slew of underfinanced franchises in the league, is there really very little interest amongst the owners in saving $5M next season?

It doesn't make much sense to me.

Well it also helps the Bruins get better without making the acquiring team materially better. Sure they're saving money, but they're also lending a huge hand to the Bruins to be able to use that $5M to help win a Cup next season. With the Bruins cap situation and talent level, that $5M could go a long way to improve their chances next year.

I just don't see how acquiring a dead contract to meet the cap floor isn't circumventing the cap. It defeats the entire purpose of having a cap floor, i.e. so teams are forced to be competetive.

[NickEsasky]

Well it also helps the Bruins get better without making the acquiring team materially better. Sure they're saving money, but they're also lending a huge hand to the Bruins to be able to use that $5M to help win a Cup next season. With the Bruins cap situation and talent level, that $5M could go a long way to improve their chances next year.

I agree with this 100%. Another issue is the message it sends to the fans of that team. "Look we are so cheap we are going to give up something of value to save $5 million."

[SpacemanzGerbil]

Well it also helps the Bruins get better without making the acquiring team materially better. Sure they're saving money, but they're also lending a huge hand to the Bruins to be able to use that $5M to help win a Cup next season. With the Bruins cap situation and talent level, that $5M could go a long way to improve their chances next year.

While true, who gets the bigger benefit - the Bruins gaining the ability to spend $5M more on salary for the 2013 season or the owner of a struggling franchise getting to sock away $5M instead of laying out as required by the CBA? A good point, though, as it doesn't really line up exactly with the NBA and their owners selling off draft picks for cash.

I agree with this 100%. Another issue is the message it sends to the fans of that team. "Look we are so cheap we are going to give up something of value to save $5 million."

That's what I'm getting at, though. This happens all the time in the NBA, where teams don't want to pay some kid the $2M guaranteed contract for the next four season, so they sell their pick off to a team that is better off for cash. The NBA has plenty of shit franchises who care more about dough than competitiveness, just like the NHL. So what would be the big deal for an owner, who is likely already viewed as a cheap fuck by the franchise's fan base, forking over assets for the abiilty to spend even less next season?

[TheRealness]

I agree with this 100%. Another issue is the message it sends to the fans of that team. "Look we are so cheap we are going to give up something of value to save $5 million."

But it's not circumventing the cap because he could, theoretically, play. He could get treatment. The world won't end in 12/2012, etc, etc. So, by the letter of the law, it's not circumvention.

The "message to the fans" thing is a false dilemma, IMO. If you're at the floor already, your fans are already pretty disenchanted. I think giving up a significant asset gives that argument much stronger footing, but I don't expect that to happen. I would imagine a later round pick would take care of it.

[FL4WL3SS]

I don't really believe it's cap circumvention by the letter of the law, but it kind of is in practice.

[WoburnDiaspora]

Picking him up so that they can get to the floor sounds like a very Jim Rutherford/Carolina Hurricanes thing to do.

[AcevesSaves]

I mean, if an owner is enough of a scumbag to value money over success in this business, I'm sure they'd have no problem lying to their fan base and saying that Thomas said he'd play this year.

[TheRealness]

I don't really believe it's cap circumvention by the letter of the law, but it kind of is in practice.

Thankfully, "kind of is in practice" doesn't force decisions from people, which will allow the Bruins to dump his ass.

Which is what I want, and what I want is more important than everything else.

[Haunted]

I mean, if an owner is enough of a scumbag to value money over success in this business, I'm sure they'd have no problem lying to their fan base and saying that Thomas said he'd play this year.

This seems dangerous when all Thomas has to do is say "no I didn't".

[AimingForYoko]

This seems dangerous when all Thomas has to do is say "no I didn't".

He probably would too.

[BigMike]

But the owner doesn't need to say he said he would play.

He says something like.

Today we aquired Tim Thomas for a 6th rounder. Thomas has been one of the elite goaltenders in the NHL over the past 5 years, and we feel that 6th rounder is well worth the rsk to bring in an elite player at such a critical position. We recognize that Tim has talked about taking a year off, but we hope that he will reconsider and join the Islander (etc) organization. Or if he decides he wants to play somewhere else then we have a very valuable trade asset that we can use to bring more talent into our organization. It is a calculated risk, but our organization as a whole believes that this risk is one that can pay off heavily for our organization

[TheRealness]

They should just deal him to Colorado. The Avs should be able to reach the cap floor, as while they have only $30m committed for next year, they'll probably spend between $20-30m re-signing their abundance of RFAs and rounding out their roster. Having Thomas makes that a guarantee, and there's a chance he signs with you after his year off because he's going to live there. Plus, there's an outside shot he joins the team at the end of the year should the world not end in December.

[MiracleOfO2704]

So, color me crazy on this, but why announce this today? Especially when he's available for trade a week from Sunday whether he wants it or not? I'm of two thoughts about this strategy: either Chiarelli is minutes away from a deal and wants to reassure the other GM he can be had during the draft, or he's desperate to drum up business during the draft with an aim at trading his contract by next weekend. From what Fluto said, I'm leaning toward the former.

[Dalton Jones]

I think we're over-analyzing the situation. I've thought all along that Thomas doesn't want to play in Boston and wanted to force a trade. He'll be playing for someone this upcoming season, just not the Bruins.

[lexrageorge]

I think we're over-analyzing the situation. I've thought all along that Thomas doesn't want to play in Boston and wanted to force a trade. He'll be playing for someone this upcoming season, just not the Bruins.

Except, had he simply waived his NMC and asked for a trade, chances are decent a trade would happen. Right now, he's more difficult to move (as I just don't see the Bruins giving up a top-tier prospect solely to move him), and if he's not moved, he's going to sacrifice $3M.

[FL4WL3SS]

All quiet on the Thomas trade front, it seems.

[erfus]

All quiet on the Thomas trade front, it seems.

I'm guessing since he wasn't moved during the draft the next window will be a couple of weeks after July 1st once most of the big names sign and many of the RFAs come to terms, get offered arbitration, or the offer sheet market develops (or more likely fails to develop). After that point, teams will have an idea of whether or not they need to get to the cap floor creatively or potentially are really screwed when it comes to goaltending depth enough to take a chance that Thomas comes back (or dangles a contract extension in front of him to come back).

[FL4WL3SS]

Which really screws the Bruins from doing anything in Free Agency with that money. At this point, it really doesn't matter if he gets traded if they need to wait until Free Agency calms down - hopefully Chia can pull something off this week, otherwise he's effectively screwed the Bruins.

[AMcGhie]

Ok, this is a stretch of a deal but here goes:

Thomas + 1 of (Lucic/Krejci/Marchand) + 1 of (Knight/Spooner/that level) for John Tavarez.

OR

Thomas + 1 of (Seguin/Hamilton) for John Tavarez.

Islanders get Cap Floor relief, Bruins get cap ceiling relief, and its a general swap of relatively equivalent talent. Tavarez is signed at ~5M/yr for 5 more years. If he wants, Thomas gets to play in front of a defense that does not know what its doing, and watch his GAA go north of 3.

[FelixMantilla]

Please post that where it belongs: HF Boards.

[Greg29fan]

I think Luongo's going to have to get moved before anything happens with any other #1 goaltenders like Thomas.

[Titoschew]

Ok, this is a stretch of a deal but here goes:

Thomas + 1 of (Lucic/Krejci/Marchand) + 1 of (Knight/Spooner/that level) for John Tavarez.

OR

Thomas + 1 of (Seguin/Hamilton) for John Tavarez.

Islanders get Cap Floor relief, Bruins get cap ceiling relief, and its a general swap of relatively equivalent talent. Tavarez is signed at ~5M/yr for 5 more years. If he wants, Thomas gets to play in front of a defense that does not know what its doing, and watch his GAA go north of 3.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I think Luongo's going to have to get moved before anything happens with any other #1 goaltenders like Thomas.

He's not a #1 goalie, at least not for 2012-13, since he's not planning on playing.

[Myt1]

That would still make him a #1 for Toronto and the Islanders.

[maufman]

I understand that Thomas counts against the cap of whatever team has him on their roster, but if he doesn't show up to play and doesn't have an excuse, can't the receiving team nullify his contract?

Obviously, the best case for the Bruins would be to find a taker that's below the cap floor, so that Thomas's contract would have value, but failing that, wouldn't another team that's above the floor, but below the cap, be willing to take on Thomas in exchange for a token asset? Sure, it would be sub-optimal to give up something of value to move Thomas, but assuming that the "token asset" is worth a lot less than what the Bruins could obtain with $5mm in cap space, isn't it in their interest to do that?

The concern I'd have as the acquiring team in that scenario would be if Thomas has a change of heart in December or so, which is why I asked about nullifying his contract.

[Domer]

The concern I'd have as the acquiring team in that scenario would be if Thomas has a change of heart in December or so, which is why I asked about nullifying his contract.

A team would be concerned about getting a recent Vezina winner for about $1.5 million? If nothing else, Thomas would provide trade value.

[PBDWake]

I think Luongo's going to have to get moved before anything happens with any other #1 goaltenders like Thomas.

Well, Luongo reportedly turned down a trade to the Leafs. If they're still in the trade market for Goalies, I'm all for Burke Trades 2: Bruins Bugaloo.

[erfus]

Which really screws the Bruins from doing anything in Free Agency with that money. At this point, it really doesn't matter if he gets traded if they need to wait until Free Agency calms down - hopefully Chia can pull something off this week, otherwise he's effectively screwed the Bruins.

Eh...I'm not sure about that. With the cap going up to about $70m and the ability to exceed the cap in the summer, if some remote circumstance by which Parise expresses a desire to come to the Bruins for a Bruins-like contract occurs I think they'll find a way. If they're going after a Ray Whitney type of player, I think they still have the flexibility to do that. It's certainly an impediment, but I don't think they're over a barrel. Thomas screwed the Bs in that he no longer has trade value, but there's almost always a way around the cap ramifications.

I still think Thomas is going to play next season, the logical next step is for Chiarelli to quietly give his agent permission to talk to a team that Thomas is interested in playing for to work out a trade for the hockey equivalent of Zach Stewart and Brett Lillibridge.

[lexrageorge]

I understand that Thomas counts against the cap of whatever team has him on their roster, but if he doesn't show up to play and doesn't have an excuse, can't the receiving team nullify his contract?

Obviously, the best case for the Bruins would be to find a taker that's below the cap floor, so that Thomas's contract would have value, but failing that, wouldn't another team that's above the floor, but below the cap, be willing to take on Thomas in exchange for a token asset? Sure, it would be sub-optimal to give up something of value to move Thomas, but assuming that the "token asset" is worth a lot less than what the Bruins could obtain with $5mm in cap space, isn't it in their interest to do that?

The concern I'd have as the acquiring team in that scenario would be if Thomas has a change of heart in December or so, which is why I asked about nullifying his contract.

There's no way to nullify the $5M cap hit, as Thomas was over 35 when he signed his contract. Granted, neither the Bruins nor any acquiring team has to pay the $3M owed to Thomas (unless in the very remote event Thomas changes his mind and reports to camp), but the cap hit remains regardless.

Also, I'm not sure the Bruins are truly screwed. They do have LTIR cushion they can use for Savard. Yes, it would be nice to have that $5M, but there's not much out there this offseason; if there was a time to be up against the cap, this is certainly it.

Edited by lexrageorge, 25 June 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[IowzDAHchiefs]

Can the team or any team suspend the contract and continue to carry the $5 mil until TT returns, then trade him at a later date? Is there anything from stopping TT from coming back after the trade deadline?

[soxfan121]

Is there anything from stopping TT from coming back after the trade deadline?

The Rapture, the end of the Mayan calendar and the Apocalypse. Other than that, no.

[erfus]

There's no way to nullify the $5M cap hit, as Thomas was over 35 when he signed his contract. Granted, neither the Bruins nor any acquiring team has to pay the $3M owed to Thomas (unless in the very remote event Thomas changes his mind and reports to camp), but the cap hit remains regardless.

Yes, sorry, my post was poorly written. I meant there's almost always a way around the overall cap ramifications. Savard on the LTIR is something obvious, but if they sign a top 6 forward, there are probably ways to make room for that player beyond hoping someone takes Thomas. It would mean trading someone, etc., but one of the benefits of the recent extensions that Chiarelli has negotiated of late is that most of those contracts are quite tradeable.

[veritas]

It really wouldn't surprise me if Thomas was doing the Bruins a favor here and pretending to be taking a year off with every intention of retiring. He won the Cup, won the Conn Smythe, and really had nothing to prove after last season. I'm sure he came back last year to try to repeat, but he's 38 years old, why is it so hard for people to believe he doesn't want to play anymore? If that's the case he's doing the team a HUGE favor giving them a way out of his cap hit

That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if he was being a psycho dickbag prick either.

[Eddie Jurak]

Maybe a cap floor team could keep Thomas on the books at five mil for the next 5 years assuming he never shows up?

[PedroSpecialK]

Maybe a cap floor team could keep Thomas on the books at five mil for the next 5 years assuming he never shows up?

Until he files retirement papers they could, so long as they tolled his contract every time.

[j44thor]

Is it guaranteed that there will be a cap floor next year?

[lexrageorge]

Maybe a cap floor team could keep Thomas on the books at five mil for the next 5 years assuming he never shows up?

I would have to believe that at some point the NHL would deem Thomas as "retired" if he doesn't play for X number of consecutive years.

Of course, at some point the same team could be at risk of Thomas deciding to "unretire" and collect the remaining $3M on his contract, perhaps at the ripe old age of 45 or 50!! Wouldn't put it past him....

[IowzDAHchiefs]

Maybe a cap floor team could keep Thomas on the books at five mil for the next 5 years assuming he never shows up?

I would think a GM like Garth Snow or Scott Howson would see the value in at least making the move to aquire him at X value (No Idea) or future considerations and look to upgrade by moving him if he decides to return. The potential rewards would be worth the risk just to be the dumping ground, unless of course the world does end and this realy will not matter.

[BoSoxFink]

Is it possible that the new CBA could eliminate this from counting against the cap? I suppose it wouldn't really matter even if it did bc the Bruins will already have lost the flexibility on July 1st because of it, But I was wondering if that could also be a possibility once the CBA is agreed upon.

[FL4WL3SS]

Eh...I'm not sure about that. With the cap going up to about $70m and the ability to exceed the cap in the summer, if some remote circumstance by which Parise expresses a desire to come to the Bruins for a Bruins-like contract occurs I think they'll find a way. If they're going after a Ray Whitney type of player, I think they still have the flexibility to do that. It's certainly an impediment, but I don't think they're over a barrel. Thomas screwed the Bs in that he no longer has trade value, but there's almost always a way around the cap ramifications.

I still think Thomas is going to play next season, the logical next step is for Chiarelli to quietly give his agent permission to talk to a team that Thomas is interested in playing for to work out a trade for the hockey equivalent of Zach Stewart and Brett Lillibridge.

Well if they can't count on him being traded, then they certainly can't sign Parise. If the sign Parise and then Thomas never gets traded, they're in quite a pickle, aren't they? That's what I mean by they're sort of trapped in a corner until they can trade Thomas. It'd be a huge risk to sign any FA that is going to put them over the cap without knowing if you're going to be able to trade Thomas or not.

There's no way to nullify the $5M cap hit, as Thomas was over 35 when he signed his contract. Granted, neither the Bruins nor any acquiring team has to pay the $3M owed to Thomas (unless in the very remote event Thomas changes his mind and reports to camp), but the cap hit remains regardless.

Also, I'm not sure the Bruins are truly screwed. They do have LTIR cushion they can use for Savard. Yes, it would be nice to have that $5M, but there's not much out there this offseason; if there was a time to be up against the cap, this is certainly it.

Yes, they can use Savard's LTIR money, but they need to be cap compliant by the beginning of the season. So this really puts a wrinkle on signing free agents and not trading Thomas. Sure they can stash a couple of guys in the AHL for a day, but there's only so much money you can save by doing that.


Basically with Thomas' $5M, the Bruins would be able to do pretty much anything -- right now they're sort of in a holding pattern.

[smastroyin]

I think the Bruins probably aren't screwed because while I'm sure Chia is trying to play it close to the vest, it really just doesn't sound like any of the high ticket FA are on their agenda.

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I think the Bruins probably aren't screwed because while I'm sure Chia is trying to play it close to the vest, it really just doesn't sound like any of the high ticket FA are on their agenda.

Yup. Sounds like he wants to go into the season with the roster constructed as is.

That makes me sad.

[Dummy Hoy]

Yup. Sounds like he wants to go into the season with the roster constructed as is.

That makes me sad.

Why?

If Peter Chiarelli continues to stick with the same guys for the next 3 years, I'll be pissed, but this is a good team returning (with 1 or 2 caveats- Horton and Rask)

If (caveat #1) Horton can come back then this team has as much forward depth as anyone in the League. Everyone wants to remember the last time you saw this team (losing to a tough WASH squad in 7 games), but this team finished tied for 2nd in G/G last year...they don't NEED Nash (Parise would be sweet because of his overall game, but they don't NEED him either). If Horton is out then they do need to fill a big hole, but given that guys like Seguin and Marchand and Caron are getting better, they should be good up front.

The D is all set with people slotted nicely into roles from Big Z on down. The great news is that we replace Corvo/Kaberle with Hamilton. Yes, he'll be raw and will make mistakes, but by all accounts he's a future top 10 defenseman.

If (Caveat #2) Rask can approach his 2009-2012 form, then I think this team is money. Even if Khudobin is a fucking zero in the 25 games he plays (which I think we all would agree is unlikely), they would end up as the 6th seed or some shit like that. After watching the last few years of the playoffs, seeding doesn't seem so important, does it?

I'm not totally thrilled with the resigning of all of the 3rd and 4th liners (longer deals than I would like), but the team Chia is putting on the ice next year is a no-doubt Stanley Cup contender, even if they don't go buy the prettiest thing on the market.