273 replies to this topic

[AimingForYoko]

That sounds like SoSH too. At least Bobby the Fifth can bring this team together over something.

Mentioning just Pedroia and Youkilis (for the umpteenth time, without any new observations) suggests that there's nothing new here, just the same old recycled clubhouse legend. So why Rosenthal, and why now?

It's good, lazy fun. He doesn't have to do any actual reporting and stirs the pot/keeps the story going at the same time. His bow-tie is probably spinning in excitement.

[joe dokes]

The story line is set: If they lose, its because of their hatred of the manager. If they win, its inspite of their hatred of the manager. An unprovable -- or disprovable -- premise based on poorly-sourced extrapolation/speculation.

[ScubaSteveAvery]

The biggest revelation is that Glennhoffmania is actually Ken Rosenthal.

[luckysox]

I just don't give a good god-damn if they all hate BV, player and coaches and fans and ownership and Ben alike. They are playing very well these days. Hate away, fellas, but keep the ball rolling in the right direction. If this stupid crap keeps coming out of the media outlets, whether true or false, and it melds these guys together even more, we'll be watching them overtake the Yankees in August.

[Al Zarilla]

I just don't give a good god-damn if they all hate BV, player and coaches and fans and ownership and Ben alike. They are playing very well these days. Hate away, fellas, but keep the ball rolling in the right direction. If this stupid crap keeps coming out of the media outlets, whether true or false, and it melds these guys together even more, we'll be watching them overtake the Yankees in August.

What would be the equivalent of the Billy Martin - Reggie Jackson fight caught on TV in the dugout in 1977, Valentine vs. Youkilis, or vs. Pedroia? I don't think BV is a fighter though. Billy was crazy too.

Just keep stringing those Ws, boys.

Edited by Al Zarilla, 22 June 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

So that seems to confirm that McClure was not a Valentine hire, but a FO hire.

McClure was hired before BV, he was just moved into the pitching coach role after BV named manager. The major issue was that the Sox took so long to name a manager that it was really hard for BV to assemble his staff; you can't hire guys away from other staff's that late. If Niemann is BV's guy, why not just reassign McClure and name Niemann as pitching coach?

[Dick Pole Upside]

From Chad's chat yesterday:

Chad Finn:
Start by getting Youkilis out of here. Tell Pedroia (yes, Pedroia) and Lester to get over it with whatever issues they have with Bobby V. and to stop showing him up at every opportunity. Tell Bobby V. to knock off the passive/aggressive crap and have a spine to say what he believes and not back down from it when it becomes a Felger and Mazz talking point the next day.

Personally, I think the Pedroia piece of this situation is underplayed (and under the theme of "stop looking for trouble" I'm okay with the lack of ink on this situation). It would be one thing if he was raking, but he's not. He's getting a free pass because he's "Pedey" and he's Tito's Boy, but his comments about BV and some of the on-field stuff aren't helpful despite Valentine publically lauding him at every turn. Laser Show hasn't been around all season, so he doesn't need to be showing up anyone. Lester doesn't seem to be handling the pressure very well either, and the pouty/pissy act whilst registering a 4.50+ ERA is getting old.

Performance on the field is the only eye test that matters. Nobody should be carping, yapping, and subverting the team approach, and that's especially true for those who just aren't performing for whatever reason.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Can somebody remind me what the Pedroia issues are aside from the ill-judged "that's not how we do things here" comment? From the way Finn and others are talking, it sounds like I've missed some stuff. How has he been showing up BV since then?

[Snowplow]

Can somebody remind me what the Pedroia issues are aside from the ill-judged "that's not how we do things here" comment? From the way Finn and others are talking, it sounds like I've missed some stuff. How has he been showing up BV since then?

Per Rosenthal

Pedroia’s absence during a mound visit in last Sunday night’s nationally televised game at Wrigley Field. One scout said, “He didn’t go in (for the meeting), he just glared at Bobby V.”

[joe dokes]

Alcohol fueled thinking during the rain delay last night.
Someone on teevee compared the Sox to a M*A*S*H unit, injury-wise. OK, lets play along

Tito was easygoing Henry Blake, replaced by older veteran lifer Sherman Potter Valentine.
Pedroia is Radar. Still bummed at losing Henry.
Manny was Klinger. Crazy
Ortiz is Hawkeye. emotional. never happy. always performs.

Edited by joe dokes, 23 June 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[86spike]

Pedroia has lost a ton of my respect this season.

I'm sure he couldn't give a shit about my opinion, but it's really disappointing to see a guy I thought was a fantastic natural leader devolve into a problem child.

Suck it up and deal, Dustin. You don't like your boss. We get it. Boo Hoo. Do your job and do your part to make the team work.

[joe dokes]

Not that I'm necessarily buying the "problem child" thing, but I think Pedroia has a tough time leading when he's sucking. That's not a knock on him, as there are probably few players whose attitude doesn't suffer when their performance does. (Maybe that's why guys who suck are always deemed "leaders." Their performance never gets them down )

[Marbleheader]

Another writer takes a turn dumping on this franchise. Was on Yahoo's 'Today' feed earlier with the caption 'Grow Up Red Sox':

Boston's only chance to atone for last season's embarrassing collapse is to show some maturity and stop bickering like bratty kids.

- Tim Brown

[Toe Nash]

Pedroia has lost a ton of my respect this season.

I'm sure he couldn't give a shit about my opinion, but it's really disappointing to see a guy I thought was a fantastic natural leader devolve into a problem child.

Suck it up and deal, Dustin. You don't like your boss. We get it. Boo Hoo. Do your job and do your part to make the team work.

So we have one comment he made defending Youk (when pretty much everyone agreed that Bobby was stupid to say what he had said) and Rosenthal reporting he didn't go to the mound once (can anyone go to the video and confirm this?) and now we're saying Pedroia isn't a leader?

Come on. If the not-going-to-the-mound thing is a pattern then I haven't noticed it. Even if so, who the hell cares? Who says he has to go and stand around the mound when Bobby comes out?

His job is to play the game hard and he always does that.

[lexrageorge]

So we have one comment he made defending Youk (when pretty much everyone agreed that Bobby was stupid to say what he had said) and Rosenthal reporting he didn't go to the mound once (can anyone go to the video and confirm this?) and now we're saying Pedroia isn't a leader?

Come on. If the not-going-to-the-mound thing is a pattern then I haven't noticed it. Even if so, who the hell cares? Who says he has to go and stand around the mound when Bobby comes out?

His job is to play the game hard and he always does that.

Well, if Valentine expected Pedroia to come to the mound, and he didn't, that's a pretty serious act of on-field insubordination. It's also totally unwarranted.

That's, of course, assuming it actually happened the way Rosenthal described. I'm a bit skeptical, given that he described Pedroia as "glaring", but for all we know Pedey could have been waiting for a signal to come to the mound.

Edited by lexrageorge, 23 June 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Not that I'm necessarily buying the "problem child" thing, but I think Pedroia has a tough time leading when he's sucking.

I think Pedroia has a tough time leading, period, and I don't think we should expect this of him. I don't know why people keep talking as if this is an assumed part of his profile. I suppose it's because he's so dedicated and competitive, an energizer bunny and ballpark rat par excellence. But those things in themselves don't imply the specific interpersonal abilities that constitute leadership. (And this is not a knock on Pedroia's character--leadership is a talent, not a moral virtue.)

[reggiecleveland]

Here's the thing, these reporters that spend time around the team and talk to people on the team they know way less than those of us who watch on TV. Pedroia is awesome (all hs managers praise him, he's a little white guy that hustles) for the same reason Nick Punto sucks. It is clear Pedroia is a great guy there is no way we could possibly be missing things because we are not there.

All these reporters have a emotion invested in making things up about the Red Sox even thought they cover 25 or so other teams, while the people on this site view everything through the cold hard lens of logic. Just like in the past when they tried to make it look like Nomar was a whiner, Manny had a bad attitude, Schilling was a big mouth, and Beckett was out of shape. Liars with an agenda all of them!

[smastroyin]

Actually unless the "acting like brats" is turning Jon Lester into John Lackey and Adrian Gonzalez into Dave McCarty it's really not attitude that is a problem with this team and what will hold them back from making a run.

[reggiecleveland]

Countdown to Youk details...

[Stuart Scott's Lazy Eye]

If details do end up coming out, it's a solid bet it's straight from the top. Par for the course.

[86spike]

I'm curious to hear how Youks' now-former teammates discuss him leaving. If you don't hear any gnashing of teeth, they wanted him gone too.

[Stuart Scott's Lazy Eye]

I'm curious to hear how Youks' now-former teammates discuss him leaving. If you don't hear any gnashing of teeth, they wanted him gone too.

I don't know, that doesn't seem necessarily fair to the other guys on the team. Kind of puts them in a damned if they do, damned if they don't position. On the one hand, if they speak out about how displeased they are with Youk leaving, they look like they're part of the "toxic" atmosphere in the clubhouse for publicly voicing their displeasure with management's decision. If they don't speak out, it makes them look like they didn't care about having Youk as a teammate? For all the grief Pedroia has gotten in this thread thus far (unwarranted for the most part, aside from the "that's not how we do things around here" comment), I'd rather see him keep his opinions to himself and move on, but I wouldn't see that as an indication he wanted Youk gone.

[86spike]

I don't know, that doesn't seem necessarily fair to the other guys on the team. Kind of puts them in a damned if they do, damned if they don't position. On the one hand, if they speak out about how displeased they are with Youk leaving, they look like they're part of the "toxic" atmosphere in the clubhouse for publicly voicing their displeasure with management's decision. If they don't speak out, it makes them look like they didn't care about having Youk as a teammate? For all the grief Pedroia has gotten in this thread thus far (unwarranted for the most part, aside from the "that's not how we do things around here" comment), I'd rather see him keep his opinions to himself and move on, but I wouldn't see that as an indication he wanted Youk gone.

That's a really great point and I retract my earlier presupposition. The perception of the "toxic" cloud is going to totally going to color how everyone reacts. Probably all season long.

[Dick Pole Upside]

Didn't see anything in the Media forum, but Keith Foulke was interviewed yesterday during the noon hour on TSH. He was at LaLacheur Park for "Champions Day" along with Dennis Seidenberg.

Was asked about Youkilis situation and what it was like dealing with media in Boston in good times and bad.

Essentially said that his personal philosophy when he was on the record was to always be honest, and that this approach worked well for him sometimes, and not so well on other occasions, which he readily admitted (Johnny from Burger King comes to mind). But he stuck to his guns and tried to be as straight up as possible. He said that if Youk says he wasn't talked to about his role and BV said someone DID speak with him, then somebody is lying, which isn't good.

He also said that the players had a good sense for which media members could be trusted and which couldn't. He good-naturedly cited situations where the players would mischievously plot certain "conversations" that were blatantly fabricated and then enact the discussion "off the record" with each other across the locker room, knowing that certain media members that were present wouldn't respect the sanctity of the locker room and would publish elements of the conversation without asking permission. When later queried about these little concoctions, the players easily shot them down amidst giggles and snickers.

Foulke also said something pretty interesting, if not profound. He was asked what made the 2004 group so different, and he talked about the singular focus on a common goal: winning. He said that even though the experience range was broad on that team (i.e. rookies on one end, grizzled veterans on the other), most players playing in Boston knew they were going to make good $$, so contracts weren't a distraction. Neither was the concern about playing time. Said the focus was on one thing: winning THAT DAY. He said that's why when they were down 0-3 to the Yankees that when Millar said, "Just win tonight" they weren't panicked and still thought they could do it. Total faith in the single cause. Said if they won, they kept playing; if they lost, they all knew the season was over. They wanted to keep playing.

He was very clear in saying that he didn't have any sense for what the current clubhouse was like, but mentioned that if the players in particular weren't all on the same page and weren't all aligned around a common goal, that this will make things harder to be successful. As he was saying this I had the following situations in my mind: '11 collapse hangover, snitches, Bard The Starter, Youk, Papi contract, bullpen evolution, Valentine style/communication, Ben training wheels. Doesn't seem to point to any firm common goal right now. I'm sure the players would like to circle the wagons, and let's hope they do, because all the other stuff is just taking away from what will lead to on-field success.

It was a great interview... Foulke had a lot of other interesting things to say (including how 'tough' it is for him emotionally being retired), and it was great to hear one of the underappreciated heros of 2004 speak on the record again.

Edited by Dick Pole Upside, 25 June 2012 - 07:42 AM.