273 replies to this topic

[Adrian's Dome]

You think this is an average team? They have a run differential of +27. Cleveland is -40 and has a better record. This team never fires on all cylinders. The bullpen has been great and the starters have been pretty good for the last two weeks and the offense has sucked. This team is good and with Ellsbury, Crawford, and Bailey on the horizon they should be better. This is the most under achieving Red Sox team in a long time and strangely I don't blame Bobby V for it.

Not to mention they have a +27 differential in the toughest division in baseball. With the most injuries.

Ross will be back tomorrow. Within a couple weeks, Ellsbury. A bit after that, Crawford. Can we at least wait and see what the team looks like with the lineup and bench at near full-strength for once? They should also get Beckett back within that timeframe, and Bailey won't be far behind. Reinforcements are on the way. There's no need to trade for any Dempsters or the like, see if the injury reinforcements come and the team can play to it's expected talent level in the second half.

[kieckeredinthehead]

You think this is an average team? They have a run differential of +27. Cleveland is -40 and has a better record. This team never fires on all cylinders. The bullpen has been great and the starters have been pretty good for the last two weeks and the offense has sucked. This team is good and with Ellsbury, Crawford, and Bailey on the horizon they should be better. This is the most under achieving Red Sox team in a long time and strangely I don't blame Bobby V for it.

This has far more to do with Cleveland being 5 games over their pythag (best in the AL, behind only Miami at 6) than with the Red Sox (3 games under).

[Dick Pole Upside]

We probably actually know a few things and a few others are quite likely to be true:

Bard didn't want to go to the minors was public.
Aceves wanted to start was publc
Youkilis probably doesn't like not being given the opportunity to hit his way back into things.(Semi-edumacated guess)
While he had no beef about being sent down, Melancon probably didn't like being at AAA for almost two months.(maybe I'm reaching)
Shoppach wants to play more was public (via BV)
Lester seems to hate everyone, even though he's never been given shit about anything; not nearly as much as Beckett, who responded by pitching pretty well in all but 2 starts. (Reaching again)

That's at least 20% of the roster.

As to sources....I'm sticking with the tried and true source of all leaks throught the last 40 years of baseball -- clubhouse guys and traveling secretaries. If I'm not mistaken, the Sox switched up clubbies over the winter. And Jack McCormack has been there forever.

I'll play.

I think none other than the Lucchino-backed Shank himself provided some clues in his column this morning. Paraphrasing, he Suggests BV has been building allies in the clubhouse. Then he states, "He's probably never going to be a favorite of Dustin Pedroia or Kevin Youkilis. Jon Lester gives him the stink eye every time he's pulled from a game. " But Gonzo, Salty, Papi, and Ace seem to like playing for him. Throw in new guys like Nava and WMB and it's the Old School Tito's Boys (Beckett, Lester, Youk, Pedroia) against the young, scrappy (non-Punto division) overachievers (and Gonzo). Oh, and Padilla was pissed when he was yanked after 1 batter the other night, and the camera caught him shaking his head and mocking someone. Throw Bard into the mix, and it's a [I call myself a] Starters + Youk/Pedroia vs. everyone else thing.

Lest we forget, the malevolent Lackey lurks regularly in the clubhouse and dugout, no doubt hexing BV and others every chance he gets.

[TheoShmeo]

I'll play.

I think none other than the Lucchino-backed Shank himself provided some clues in his column this morning. Paraphrasing, he Suggests BV has been building allies in the clubhouse. Then he states, "He's probably never going to be a favorite of Dustin Pedroia or Kevin Youkilis. Jon Lester gives him the stink eye every time he's pulled from a game. " But Gonzo, Salty, Papi, and Ace seem to like playing for him. Throw in new guys like Nava and WMB and it's the Old School Tito's Boys (Beckett, Lester, Youk, Pedroia) against the young, scrappy (non-Punto division) overachievers (and Gonzo). Oh, and Padilla was pissed when he was yanked after 1 batter the other night, and the camera caught him shaking his head and mocking someone. Throw Bard into the mix, and it's a [I call myself a] Starters + Youk/Pedroia vs. everyone else thing.

Lest we forget, the malevolent Lackey lurks regularly in the clubhouse and dugout, no doubt hexing BV and others every chance he gets.

The Pedroia part doesn't add up.

He's a face of the franchise kind of player and the team has pumped him up for a long time, including recently regarding the All Star vote (when he clearly didn't deserve it). That Pedey is a Friend of Tito or was critical of Bobby's handling of Youks doesn't seem like cause for a change. If I'm LL, I'm much more focused on bridging whatever gap exists between Valentine and Pedroia than I am on feeding the CHB copy that might exacerbate it.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 18 June 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[maufman]

No. If the active players were all performing well and they were still an average team then Pumpsie would have a point. But when you have Gonzalez, Youkilis, Pedroia, Beckett, and Lester (and arguably others) all performing below their talent level we can't say that Bobby is getting the most out of this team. If he gets credit for the unexpected contributions in small bursts from people like Nava and Atch, why isn't he accountable for the shitty performances by other players?

This team as currently constructed may not be a WS team given the injuries. But so many key players are underperforming and their record should be better than it is despite those injuries. Once Ellsbury, Crawford, Sweeney, Ross, Bailey, etc., are back, this team should be great. We can blame the players for not performing and they certainly have a good chunk of responsibility. But this still isn't an average team and a .500 record doesn't get Bobby off the hook.

Of the five guys you named who are having bad years, three have had known injuries in the course of the season. When we talk about this team's bad luck with injuries, those guys are part of the equation.

Accounting for the injuries, the Sox are an average team talent-wise that is getting average results, with poor results from Lester, Gonzalez, and a few other veterans offset by unexpectedly good performances from Doubront, Salty, and a few farm hands. Going forward, I would expect regression to the mean all around, leaving us with a .500 team before accounting for contributions from players who have missed most of the season due to injury. The Sox need to play like a 96-win club the rest of the way to finish with 90 wins, so the returning players are going to be hard-pressed to close the gap without a lot of luck.

Or, to take a more broad view: most of us thought the Sox were a 90-94 win team back in March. They've had a lot of bad luck and now figure to win something like 85-89 games. How is this evidence that BV is a bad manager?

I never liked the hire and am still not a fan of the guy, but the club's current hard luck is the residue of poor design by the FO.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

It's been talked about in other threads, but there's pretty clearly some kind of pitchers vs. hitters divide in the clubhouse. It was made public with the Papi speech to the pitchers to get their shit together, which supposedly started that run that put them over .500 the first time, but I doubt that squelched all the bad blood. Perhaps it resurfaced more than a little with the Bard implosion and demotion. There may have been a little grumbling that a guy who couldn't even seem to avoid hitting opposing players was bitching about being sent down and they were probably pissed in the first place that Bard was making comments about how he wanted to be a starter (aka - that's not exactly a team-first statement).

Then you get a Nats series where the hitters look pathetic and it's right back atcha.

I've been convinced for a while that managing personalities is the manager's most important skill, and judging by all the communications-related criticisms that are being floated around, I'm guessing that Bobby isn't doing the best job of making sure everyone knows their role right now and that's exacerbating the discord.

Just as in any other organization, the employees want to feel valued and part of the big picture, regardless of compensation. If they feel like they're just a number, or just a plug-in, they disconnect and just start going through the motions. Or, worse, they look to undermine those they feel are on the inside when they're on the outside.

Bobby, or maybe Ben, needs to get everyone on board, and in a hurry, or the train will continue to putter along or possibly go off the rails altogether.

[glennhoffmania]

Of the five guys you named who are having bad years, three have had known injuries in the course of the season. When we talk about this team's bad luck with injuries, those guys are part of the equation.

Accounting for the injuries, the Sox are an average team talent-wise that is getting average results, with poor results from Lester, Gonzalez, and a few other veterans offset by unexpectedly good performances from Doubront, Salty, and a few farm hands. Going forward, I would expect regression to the mean all around, leaving us with a .500 team before accounting for contributions from players who have missed most of the season due to injury. The Sox need to play like a 96-win club the rest of the way to finish with 90 wins, so the returning players are going to be hard-pressed to close the gap without a lot of luck.

Or, to take a more broad view: most of us thought the Sox were a 90-94 win team back in March. They've had a lot of bad luck and now figure to win something like 85-89 games. How is this evidence that BV is a bad manager?

I never liked the hire and am still not a fan of the guy, but the club's current hard luck is the residue of poor design by the FO.

Pedroia, Gonzalez, Youkilis and Ortiz should be as good a 2-5 as any other team. Beckett, Lester and Buchholz should be as good a 1-3 as any other team. The complimentary pieces like Salty, Sweeney, Aviles, etc., are pretty solid as well. When you look at other teams in the AL and/or ALE, which teams are better on paper? Baltimore with Arrieta, Chen, and Hammel plus Jones, Markakis, Wieters and Reynolds? Toronto with Drabek, Morrow, and Romero plus Bautista, Encarnacion, Lawrie and Rasmus? Not to mention other teams have had a bunch of injuries as well- Baltimore is the only ALE team with its regular closer for example.

Yeah the Sox have had a ton of injuries. But I don't see how anyone could say they're only an average team talent-wise right now relatively speaking. The problems are a)some guys are playing banged up (which is hardly unique to Boston); b)some guys are just playing terribly; and c)they're playing really shitty baseball at times (errors, baserunning, giving up outs, substitutions that come back to bite them in the ass, etc.). Even without Crawford, Ellsbury and Bailey I don't see how this team is "doing well" to be at .500 compared to the other teams both in the division and in the AL.

I thought they were a 92-95 win team in March. Currently they're an 81 win team. Unless Crawford, Ellsbury and Bailey would've made up 11-14 wins (over guys who have played decently in their absence by the way) I don't see how the season can be considered a success so far.

Edited by glennhoffmania, 18 June 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[joe dokes]

I'll play.

I think none other than the Lucchino-backed Shank himself provided some clues in his column this morning. Paraphrasing, he Suggests BV has been building allies in the clubhouse. Then he states, "He's probably never going to be a favorite of Dustin Pedroia or Kevin Youkilis. Jon Lester gives him the stink eye every time he's pulled from a game. " But Gonzo, Salty, Papi, and Ace seem to like playing for him. Throw in new guys like Nava and WMB and it's the Old School Tito's Boys (Beckett, Lester, Youk, Pedroia) against the young, scrappy (non-Punto division) overachievers (and Gonzo). Oh, and Padilla was pissed when he was yanked after 1 batter the other night, and the camera caught him shaking his head and mocking someone. Throw Bard into the mix, and it's a [I call myself a] Starters + Youk/Pedroia vs. everyone else thing.

Lest we forget, the malevolent Lackey lurks regularly in the clubhouse and dugout, no doubt hexing BV and others every chance he gets.

Well you're one step ahead of me. You read Shank today.

And while I think you've characterized the players fairly well, I think Pedroia would play hard and be "non-toxic" even if some combination of Grady Little, Joe Kerrigan, and Kevin Kennedy was managing.

[Toe Nash]

Glennhoff, you didn't really address the question and you're moving the goalposts.

Pedroia, Gonzalez, Youkilis and Ortiz should be as good a 2-5 as any other team.

Three of these guys have been playing hurt. The one who hasn't has been pulling his weight.

Beckett, Lester and Buchholz should be as good a 1-3 as any other team.

Beckett has perhaps been some degree of hurt. Buchholz missed a lot of time and now seems to be returning to normal.

So you can blame Lester and maybe Beckett for not pulling their weight, I guess / Bobby for not "motivating" them. Maybe blame him for Gonzalez too if you don't think he's hurt at all. But beyond that what is Valentine supposed to do?

[glennhoffmania]

Toe, my point isn't that this team is underperforming and all of the blame falls on Bobby. What I've been trying to say is that if people are going to give him credit for the surprise performances of guys like Nava and Pods then he has to take some responsibility for the guys who aren't pulling their weight. It can't be only one but not the other. But overall what I'm saying is that regardless of who's to blame, this team is not average even as currently constructed in my opinion. If we look at the 5 ALE rosters, taking into account injured and banged up players, I find it hard to believe that Boston would be picked to be in last place right now.

Even if we just say that Lester, Beckett and Gonzalez haven't pulled their weight, that's a significant amount of weight. And if they were having typical years this wouldn't be a .500 team right now. Whether the blame falls on them, Bobby, or whoever is a different question.

Edited by glennhoffmania, 18 June 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[Bernard Gilkey baby]

I think it's pretty clear this has to be true. We see evidence (and reasons) of it all over the place:

1) There's a charm deficit amongst the starting pitchers. The front line pitchers are not accountable in the traditional sense. And the performance is pretty uneven, which has the potential to rub the position players the wrong way.

2) The head trainer is apparently making calls about when Beckett should go on the DL, undercutting someone's authority.

3) BV probably feels validated that starting Bard was not a great idea and that starting Morales might have been; being held back from making that call, as Abraham suggests, is one of the ways in which he feels he isn't able to do his job.

4) BV doesn't protect the players like Tito. Last week, we find out that Clay requested an extra day of rest. In Boston market, if it's ever-so-slightly-implied that you're a pussy, people will run with it. Like Youklis before him, Clay probably didn't love that (whether he "deserved" it not). And then Cherington comes in afterwards and has to try and fix the bruised egos, which undercuts BV.

5) Youklis is sitting on the same team as his younger replacement. He may not feel appreciated. Sure he has money to comfort him but the world doesn't actually work like that. It's a good bet he's miserable in his situation.

6) Many high salaried players are either injured or not playing up to expectations.Many lower salaried players are playing above expectations and getting paid 90 less than the super rich folks who are not in the clubhouse or acting entitled.

7) This team is not loved by Boston fans. The owners are watching attendance shrink and ratings drop and there must be some pressure from on high to turn it around ASAP.

8) They are losing. I know 8 is most important but it's a vicious cycle of negativity.

These are athletes, spoiled at a relatively young age; they are not zen masters and are susceptible to jealousy, resentment and all the petty stuff that comes with it. Without clear leadership, winning, and direction, it's probably a big struggle.

Edited by Bernard Gilkey baby, 18 June 2012 - 03:47 PM.

[joe dokes]

Lets assume that some part of what everyone is saying is at least a little bit true. How much of it is attributable to the somewhat unavoidable friction that is created when a new manager inherits a group of players used to doing things one way, and, at the same time is working for a new GM. If its Theo with a new manager, or Tito with a new GM, maybe its a bit less, but there a lot of new parts here.

And its exacerbated because its not just 25 parts. They've used 41 players and its June 15. So in a sense, there ends up being a shitload of players whose Sox history starts with BV & Cherington, not Tito & Theo, which might shake things up for the veterans. For all we know, Pedroia used to go into Tito's office every day and pee into the manager's spit cup. Probably not anymore.

Someone said upthread that it appears that managing people --Tito's seeming strength--is a BV weakness. Maybe. But it's also possible that some of the people being managed have a weakness in adjusting to a new situation, and that the worlds of some folks that have been very stable are still settling. Its not like football, where a new coaching staff means, first and foremost, learning a new playbook. In baseball, it seems, the off the field stuff takes time to work.

so to answer the thread, Is that "toxic"? I dont know. And until someone gives me information about how the Sox clubhouse compares to others, it really doesn't matter what Buster Olney calls it. Its like getting all worked up because your kid comes home and says "school sucks." Then you realize that *every* kid says school sucks.

I still think they have the parts to get back to where they were a couple of weeks ago -- on the rise and gaining ground.

[Doctor G]

Abraham this morning also mentioned the fact that some players agents were making calls to Cherington about Valentine. this could be any of the starters, or Youkilis who is essentially in a contract year, and was assured by Ben that he wouldn't lose his position due to injury. The starters could be bitching about anything from pitch counts to Bobby criticing the umpires.

the same speculation that is going on about Dempster's lat could also apply to Beckett's tendinitis.I think both Beckett and Youkilis will be on the market up till the deadline.

The fact that Beckett is not speaking to the press at all might be a function of the team telling him to keep quiet. His comments about Golfgate certainly didn't do him or the manager or the team any good.

Edited by Doctor G, 18 June 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[E5 Yaz]

Appearing on WEEI on Monday afternoon, Werner said, "I don't think anyone could quarrel with the way that he has managed a team that has had a lot of Band-Aids. ... Are there going to be some players on this team that might be quarrelsome with his approach? Yeah, maybe, but, you know what? This isn't about everybody being your friend, either."

Werner said he's read Buster Olney's blog citing widespread unhappiness at all levels of the organization, but downplayed the problems.

"Do I think everything is perfect? Probably not, but I don't think everything was perfect in 2004 or 2007, either," he said.

He said the ownership team has a good relationship with players -- "I mean, we have off-the-record conversations" -- and indicated that issues are being addressed.

"Actually, the three of us (Sox owner John Henry, president Larry Lucchino and Werner) had dinner with Bobby in Chicago on Friday night, so I think we're certainly having dialogue. It's not like our head is in the sand," he said.

"Again, I think that Bobby has the experience and the wisdom to win with these talented players," he said.

He added that he wished that "when somebody says something, that they say it for attribution."

Or at least tell Bob Hohler

http://espn.go.com/b...04-or-07-either

[LeoCarrillo]

As much as we love Clouseau'ing this issue, the thing we'll never really know -- and nor will the writers probably -- is the nature of the miscommunications in the clubhouse. Okay, PeteAbe and Olney say it's frosty. Got it. But why? The chain of events may be utterly unknown to those of us who even follow the team religiously.

I mean, the media and most of us (well, besides Dejesus) strung up Beckett by his heels for golfgate. But what if the truth was, with no reporters yet in the locker room, Beckett yelled out, "Skip, I'm good to go." And V said, "Enjoy yourself, it's a long season," and Beckett quipped "Maybe I can still get a tee time," and half of the clubhouse laughed. Cut to a week later and Beckett gets skewered for "begging off" and then takes a p.r. hit for the team. Fans hate him. Players maybe know the real story and don't give a shit.

And conversely, maybe there's personal snipes between the players, or basebally stuff like errors raising pitch counts -- and jabs about that in the clubhouse -- that we don't know about.

It's kinda Bull Durham stuff I'm throwing out there, but I just don't know how a bunch of millionaires playing baseball could become "toxic" unless they're f--king with each other in some way. And my guess is we know about 18% of it. (And that's 9% Beckett and 9% Youk).

Edited by LeoCarrillo, 18 June 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[joe dokes]

Abraham this morning also mentioned the fact that some players agents were making calls to Cherington about Valentine. this could be any of the starters, or Youkilis who is essentially in a contract year, and was assured by Ben that he wouldn't lose his position due to injury. The starters could be bitching about anything from pitch counts to Bobby criticing the umpires.

the same speculation that is going on about Dempster's lat could also apply to Beckett's tendinitis.I think both Beckett and Youkilis will be on the market up till the deadline.

The fact that Beckett is not speaking to the press at all might be a function of the team telling him to keep quiet. His comments about Golfgate certainly didn't do him or the manager or the team any good.

In all of this, the guy I have the least probem with is Beckett. Other than 2 games, he's walked the walk. Youkilis is in danger of losing his job due to lack of production, not injury. And if injury has turned him into, lets say, me (a Jew who can't play major league baseball), then Ben's promise no longer counts.

[wutang112878]

"Actually, the three of us (Sox owner John Henry, president Larry Lucchino and Werner) had dinner with Bobby in Chicago on Friday night, so I think we're certainly having dialogue. It's not like our head is in the sand," Werner said.

Actually, your head is in the sand if you think having dinner once demonstrates that you have enough dialogue. I am sure they talk more than this, but if I am trying to address the question of 'do we speak with the important folks in the organization enough', I would point to something like weekly conference calls with Ben, Larry and Bobby both individually and collectively at the very least. Not one dinner meeting. I would argue that his head is in the sand if he thinks noting one meeting is evidence of the fact that the owners are doing enough considering the direction the organization is trending.


Edit:

Bringing this back to the clubhouse is toxic, based on the stupidity of Werner, I am starting to give the vague statements in this article much more credibility.

Edited by wutang112878, 18 June 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[Pumpsie]

I hope that Bobby V. comes out tomorrow night to give the home plate umpire his lineup card while wearing a gas mask.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Buster Olney is a modern day Pavlov.

This thread is the drool.

[Green Monster]

I mean, the media and most of us (well, besides Dejesus) strung up Beckett by his heels for golfgate. But what if the truth was, with no reporters yet in the locker room, Beckett yelled out, "Skip, I'm good to go." And V said, "Enjoy yourself, it's a long season," and Beckett quipped "Maybe I can still get a tee time," and half of the clubhouse laughed. Cut to a week later and Beckett gets skewered for "begging off" and then takes a p.r. hit for the team. Fans hate him. Players maybe know the real story and don't give a shit.

Then the Sox should have said "Its a long season we are going to have Beckett skip a start". Why would they "make up" the lat issue??

[Laser Show]

Is anyone really shocked given how last season ended, Bobby's personality, the early incidents between Bobby and Youkilis, Pedroia and Beckett, and the way the team has played? It's certainly not all Bobby's fault but I can't imagine he's helping.

What happened here? Did I miss something?

[LeoCarrillo]

Then the Sox should have said "Its a long season we are going to have Beckett skip a start". Why would they "make up" the lat issue??

Maybe it was half-true. Ordinary ouchie stuff. Front office being too smooth for its own good*. Aaron Cook was on a use-or-lose deadline.

I stopped blaming Beckett and went the other way the second I heard it was management's decision to skip his start, and not his.

*It was bungled. Who knows why. Maybe they were trying to be too cute and get Cook a start while diverting "he's not a gamer" heat from Beckett after Chickengate Offseason.

Edited by LeoCarrillo, 18 June 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[drbretto]

What happened here? Did I miss something?

I think people are referring to that one time Pedroia said something in defense of Youkilis.

And of course running with that to call him the problem, which is just flat out ridiculous. As is this entire article without some specifics. You'd think most of us Sox fans would be sick of the puppet show by now.

[Laser Show]

I think people are referring to that one time Pedroia said something in defense of Youkilis.

And of course running with that to call him the problem, which is just flat out ridiculous. As is this entire article without some specifics. You'd think most of us Sox fans would be sick of the puppet show by now.

OH. I read that as an incident between Pedroia and Beckett. Must have been that and golf gate.

[jon abbey]

Rob Bradford addresses this:

http://www.weei.com/...omes-these-toxi

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

That Bradford piece is excellent. And regarding the discussion here about Valentine, he has this to say:

When discussing the dynamic between Bobby Valentine and his players, we also have to start with the wins and losses. If the team was wildly successful, the "Valentine Way" would be easier to embrace, with even his peccadilloes classified as an after-thought. But the Red Sox are winning as much as it was expected they would be, so the disconnect is magnified.

Dustin Pedroia's "that's not how we do things around here" still lingers, because the fact is that is that it isn't how they did things around there during one of the most successful runs in the organization's history. Valentine making subtle public assertions regarding players' intentions, injuries and mind-sets have led to the kind of grumbling Buster Olney referenced in his ESPN.com piece. It wasn't what worked before, and typically isn't what works in the sometimes delicate balance of a major league clubhouse, and now it's being viewed as an approach that certainly isn't helping matters.

(When Red Sox chairman Tom Werner makes reference to the possible disconnect between some players and Valentine, as he did on The Big Show Monday, you know there is something to the issue.)

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

And Gordon Edes had this to say about the Olney piece:

3. Chain of command issues. At times there still seems to be a disconnect, especially between the medical staff and the manager, which has led to some confusion about who's in charge. Valentine has clearly been instructed to offer bare-bones information about how Carl Crawford and Jacoby Ellsbury are progressing on their rehab, and at times has been perplexed by the authority the medical staff has over the pitching staff, like when Franklin Morales was shut down this spring even though he insisted his arm felt fine.

Given a free hand, the manager probably would have pulled the plug on the Daniel Bard-as-starter experiment sooner, but creative differences between a manager and GM should be valued as such, instead of necessarily viewed through a negative prism.

[glennhoffmania]

So the next chapter of this story will be Bobby telling the press that if management wants him to cook the meal they need to let him shop for the groceries.

[Pumpsie]

So the next chapter of this story will be Bobby telling the press that if management wants him to cook the meal they need to let him shop for the groceries.

Or, I think he may say that if he's going to take heat or be criticized, let it be for his own decisions, and not for Ben Cherington's. Up to this point, as far as player effectiveness and PT goes, Valentine has been proven mostly right and Cherington mostly wrong. For example, if Cherington had gotten rid of Youks in the offseason or during Spring Training, that would have solved one big problem that's gumming up the works now and then there's Valentine KNOWING that the Bard thing just wasn't going to work way, way back in the middle of ST. Where Valentine has had the most authority, as in using his bullpen day in and day out, he's been masterful. The team, shockingly, is the best at laying down sucessful bunts in the league (when was the last time you could say THAT?) and I can't remember the last time we worked a suicide squeeze play as in the last game against the Cubs. I think that when it comes to baseball decisions, Cherington should just defer to Valentine. They'll both end up looking better.

But the bottom line to everything being discussed here is the laundry list of injured players and the revolving door of players coming into and leaving the clubhouse. Hard to build team comraderie that way or get too buddy-buddy with everybody. It's been ludicrous.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You're praising the manager to laying down sacrifice bunts? For leading the league in it? Of all things you could have hung your hat on, Pumpsie (and noting the bullpen is a good point in your favor), you chose bunts? The one act that's been shown time and again to reduce run expectancy?

Bill James weeps into his abandoned baked bean factory on his night shift. Ye gods. The team's badly underplaying it's pythag for a reason.

No manager has the type of authority you want Valentine to have. Tito certainly didn't have it. Maybe LaRussa did, but he's gone now. Valentine's been very very good with the pen, but obviously as Olney and Bradford have noted, his communications skills remain a work in progress, to put it kindly.

EDIT: note well: I am in no way blaming the manager for every last thing that's gone wrong this year. Let's head that argument off right at the pass.

[TheoShmeo]

Or, I think he may say that if he's going to take heat or be criticized, let it be for his own decisions, and not for Ben Cherington's. Up to this point, as far as player effectiveness and PT goes, Valentine has been proven mostly right and Cherington mostly wrong. For example, if Cherington had gotten rid of Youks in the offseason or during Spring Training, that would have solved one big problem that's gumming up the works now and then there's Valentine KNOWING that the Bard thing just wasn't going to work way, way back in the middle of ST. Where Valentine has had the most authority, as in using his bullpen day in and day out, he's been masterful. The team, shockingly, is the best at laying down sucessful bunts in the league (when was the last time you could say THAT?) and I can't remember the last time we worked a suicide squeeze play as in the last game against the Cubs. I think that when it comes to baseball decisions, Cherington should just defer to Valentine. They'll both end up looking better.

But the bottom line to everything being discussed here is the laundry list of injured players and the revolving door of players coming into and leaving the clubhouse. Hard to build team comraderie that way or get too buddy-buddy with everybody. It's been ludicrous.

You're effectively saying that Bobby should replace Ben as GM. Whether to get rid of Youks is what the GM does. Sure, how to deploy Bard is something that seems more like a manager decision than a GM decision. But in the end, Ben doesn't make business calls (the Trio does), he makes baseball decisions. Said differently, in your construct, what would there be left for Ben to do?

[lexrageorge]

Bottom line is that the Red Sox are the team which the national media will enjoy piling on. If the Yankees were in the Red Sox position (struggling to stay above .500, injuries, ineffective but high-priced free agents), and the Sox were in first, we would be laughing our collective behinds off as article after article comes out dissecting NY's clubhouse. Heck, even the stories of the Dodgers and Mets struggles over past seasons brought a smirk to many of us when the Sox were winning. So, a lot of this media attention comes with the territory of being a high-profile, high-payroll team that is losing.

Of course, some of this is reflective of the noise that the media continues to generate in order to get eyeballs to their struggling outlets. And it's not just the sensational headlines with the loaded words (liability, toxic, etc.). It's the fact that the mediots seem to be doing even more stirring things up; a reporter talks to a person, who knows a rival GM, who, in turn, talked to another reporter that overhead a conversation between two scouts that Valentine would like to trade Youkilis. Suddenly, Youks is branded a liability. And, yes, I'm sure that during the stretch in which the Sox lost 2 of the 3 to the Orioles (again!), and followed that by getting swept by the Nats, things tweeted by team members to friends and family were probably not exactly full of joy and happiness, or even peace and understanding.

I'm sure the Sox clubhouse has its share of people whom I'd never want my daughter to date. Or people who I probably would not want to have a drink with. Or share a clubhouse with. As others have noted, it's not clear that's any different from 2004 or 2007 Red Sox, or the 2012 Royals. But what's could be different (speculating here) is that the Sox clubhouse could be a bit of a pressure cooker at times with the way this season is going. The media piling on doesn't help, as much as the players probably do try to tune that out.

[lexrageorge]

You're praising the manager to laying down sacrifice bunts? For leading the league in it? Of all things you could have hung your hat on, Pumpsie (and noting the bullpen is a good point in your favor), you chose bunts? The one act that's been shown time and again to reduce run expectancy?

Bill James weeps into his abandoned baked bean factory on his night shift. Ye gods. The team's badly underplaying it's pythag for a reason.

No manager has the type of authority you want Valentine to have. Tito certainly didn't have it. Maybe LaRussa did, but he's gone now. Valentine's been very very good with the pen, but obviously as Olney and Bradford have noted, his communications skills remain a work in progress, to put it kindly.

The team, although leading the league in successful bunts, is much closer to the middle of the pack in actual attempts. Which means either luck has been with them when they've laid the bunt down (likely), or they are just doing a better job executing the bunt when it's called upon. We can quibble which of the 21 bunts (17 excluding pitcher bunts) were justified given the game situation; even Bill James will tell you that there are times when the bunt is justified, especially if it's Nick Punto or Kelly Shoppach or an AL pitcher coming to the plate.

Edited by lexrageorge, 19 June 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The team, although leading the league in successful bunts, is much closer to the middle of the pack in actual attempts. Which means either luck has been with them when they've laid the bunt down (likely), or they are just doing a better job executing the bunt when it's called upon. We can quibble which of the 21 bunts (17 excluding pitcher bunts) were justified given the game situation; even Bill James will tell you that there are times when the bunt is justified, especially if it's Nick Punto or Kelly Shoppach or an AL pitcher coming to the plate.

It shouldn't be happening at all, really, unless the pitcher is at the plate. Or when it does happen it should be when playing for one run in the bottom of the ninth inning to tie or win the game. In every other situation the bunt is a terrible idea that hurts the team's chances of winning. Tango's tables consistently bear that out.

The bunting is a secondary issue though. Injuries have killed this team and it sounds, via Olney, that neither the players nor the manager are communicating well in the midst of all the losing.

[redsoxstiff]

You see what you're looking for.

Bobby V. would be the LAST person this would be coming from, btw. A better guess is Tito, and he might be guessing just by looking at the players (body posture reference is a red flag here) or one or more of his ex-players is complaining to him, or has complained to him in the past.

But considering the influx of new people this year, the new players and coaches PLUS all the injury replacements, it's a wonder these guys can feel like a team at all. They need nametags just to keep things straight in there. With all these moving parts, with all the injuries to key players, and with so many vets underperforming for one reason or another (Youks, Gonzo, Lester, Pedroia, etc.) I think Valentine has done a more than credible job to keep them at .500 so far.

I couldn't agree more...With all the bullshit that has been tossed at the club...from Henry's soccer purchase to Valentine's feud with his Mets GM...to all the crappy analyses to make "news"...I see a fairly decent bunch...in shit up to their lips by way of the DL...Olney's head is somewhere anal and deep...

Edited by redsoxstiff, 19 June 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[wutang112878]

Or, I think he may say that if he's going to take heat or be criticized, let it be for his own decisions, and not for Ben Cherington's. Up to this point, as far as player effectiveness and PT goes, Valentine has been proven mostly right and Cherington mostly wrong.

We need to remember Valentine signed up for this. In his own words, he didnt negotiate, just took the contract he gave him. Before he was hired it was effectively public knowledge that Ben didnt want him, but wanted Swuem but was ultimately over-ruled. Maybe Valentine is correct, but if he is indeed the smartest man in the room he should have realized what he was getting himself into. If the owners could spare a few hours and evaluate the organization, and decided to get rid of Ben thats one thing. But Ben needs to be given a chance to run the ship his way. Lets remember, it was Bobby that was out of baseball for years, and while maybe he was 100% correct in all his valuations so far, if this was a hitter we would argue its a very small sample size.

[Dogman2]

For example, if Cherington had gotten rid of Youks in the offseason or during Spring Training, that would have solved one big problem that's gumming up the works now and then there's Valentine KNOWING that the Bard thing just wasn't going to work way, way back in the middle of ST.

So what you are saying is that Cherington should have known, before the season started, that Youks would woefully underperform as well as WMB would play like he has? Because he should have known this, he should have made the trade in the spring and prevented this "gummed" problem? Additionally, Bobby V knew Bard would be terrible because of a few poor spring innings?
(SJH noted the bunt stuff)

I should ask Bobby and Ben to pick 6 lottery numbers.

[glennhoffmania]

For example, if Cherington had gotten rid of Youks in the offseason or during Spring Training, that would have solved one big problem that's gumming up the works now

If you're going to praise Bobby for his clairvoyance at least cite Middlebrooks' performance to show what a great move it would've been. As I posted in the Gonzalez thread, here are Middlebrooks' recent numbers:

Last 14 days: .192/.290/.192
Last 28 days: .278/.333/.352

With those numbers your argument that Youkilis' presence is gumming things up ain't too persuasive. Middlebrooks should be back in AAA getting regular ABs until they either get rid of Youkilis or it becomes clear that Middlebrooks is the superior player at this moment. Right now it's hardly clear.

[lexrageorge]

It shouldn't be happening at all, really, unless the pitcher is at the plate. Or when it does happen it should be when playing for one run in the bottom of the ninth inning to tie or win the game. In every other situation the bunt is a terrible idea that hurts the team's chances of winning. Tango's tables consistently bear that out.

The bunting is a secondary issue though. Injuries have killed this team and it sounds, via Olney, that neither the players nor the manager are communicating well in the midst of all the losing.

The tables also show that bunting can increase the odds of scoring 1 run, which is useful in other situations besides the bottom of the 9th. Tango's tables also assume average pitcher vs. average hitter, and don't take into account platoon splits, pitcher strengths vs. hitter weaknesses, players coming up to bat following the bunter, or Nick Punto.

All Olney's account shows is that some of the players are difficult, which is supported by other accounts as well.

[wutang112878]

All Olney's account shows is that some of the players are difficult, which is supported by other accounts as well.

Just something to think about, but how many articles did we see about players being difficult to manage while Tito was here? Remember when Ortiz interrupted TItos press conf about an RBI or something ridiculous and Tito laughed it off, and we had a story about how Ortiz was joking, and not being an a-hole? I cant really remember any articles that mentioned that the roster was difficult to deal with.

Having said that, I am sure the players are difficult, thats shocking news IMO. I am sure Doc had a heck of a time coaching the BIg3 and Rondo. Bill has had a tough time with some players like Randy, Dillon, Mankins, Adalius, etc. Basically, it seems to me the more talent you have the more issues and attitude you have to deal with because typically there is more money involved for the players. I would go back to my, this is what he signed up for argument. Its not fun, but if he could take one roster, I bet he takes our roster over the say the Pirates or Padres.

[lexrageorge]

Just something to think about, but how many articles did we see about players being difficult to manage while Tito was here? Remember when Ortiz interrupted TItos press conf about an RBI or something ridiculous and Tito laughed it off, and we had a story about how Ortiz was joking, and not being an a-hole? I cant really remember any articles that mentioned that the roster was difficult to deal with.

Having said that, I am sure the players are difficult, thats shocking news IMO. I am sure Doc had a heck of a time coaching the BIg3 and Rondo. Bill has had a tough time with some players like Randy, Dillon, Mankins, Adalius, etc. Basically, it seems to me the more talent you have the more issues and attitude you have to deal with because typically there is more money involved for the players. I would go back to my, this is what he signed up for argument. Its not fun, but if he could take one roster, I bet he takes our roster over the say the Pirates or Padres.

Obviously, you didn't read any articles from last October, or back in the days when Manny was around. There were articles, but we tend not to remember them when the team was winning trophies.

I do agree that Valentine takes this roster over the Pirates roster any day. I don't recall Valentine whining about this roster either. As many others have noted, he didn't cast a curse over the health of this team, so I'm not sure why Valentine is at fault here.

[OCD SS]

If you're going to praise Bobby for his clairvoyance at least cite Middlebrooks' performance to show what a great move it would've been. As I posted in the Gonzalez thread, here are Middlebrooks' recent numbers:

Last 14 days: .192/.290/.192
Last 28 days: .278/.333/.352

With those numbers your argument that Youkilis' presence is gumming things up ain't too persuasive. Middlebrooks should be back in AAA getting regular ABs until they either get rid of Youkilis or it becomes clear that Middlebrooks is the superior player at this moment. Right now it's hardly clear.

B-ref now has those numbers as

the last 14 days: .192/ .290/ .192 (.483)
the last 28 days: .294/ .351/ .373 (.723)

By comparison Youks is at

the last 14 days: .143/ .273/ .179 (.452)
the last 28 days: .206/ .308/ .294 (.602)

Are you sure Middlebrooks is the one who should be sent back down to AAA to get regular AB's?

[joe dokes]

So to bring this back to toxicity....when you add Bradford and Edes's voices to this it sounds more like what I had surmised. New manager, new GM, some new players, some old players. Thats a lot of new 'relationships' (for lack of a better word) that have to smooth out.

[wutang112878]

Obviously, you didn't read any articles from last October, or back in the days when Manny was around. There were articles, but we tend not to remember them when the team was winning trophies.

The articles from October that trashed Tito? I dont think he was the source there. Now, the articles on Manny, when he pushed the traveling secretary, didnt know what knee hurt him, and watched 3 strikes from Rivera when pinch hitting? Are you referring to those? I do remember those, I would say those are a very extreme example, of a guy that was trying to get out of town and doing any and anything to make that happen. Prior to that year, I am sure Manny was still difficult to manage, but we didnt hear much in the media about him. To be fair to Tito, Youk and Beckett might be tough to manage, but there isnt a guy in that clubhouse that could be as difficult to manage as Manny was his last year here. Or Nomar for that matter.

I do agree that Valentine takes this roster over the Pirates roster any day. I don't recall Valentine whining about this roster either. As many others have noted, he didn't cast a curse over the health of this team, so I'm not sure why Valentine is at fault here.

I dont think we are saying Valentine is completely at fault. I took issue with Pumpsie saying that if Ben had what Valentine wanted we would have better results. And while perhaps that is true, Ben still needs the autonomy to run the franchise as he sees fit. My point is that going into this Valentine should realize that he wouldnt be making major roster decisions, so he has to either accept that or not accept that job. He cant take the job and then complain that its those above him that are screwing him over.

[glennhoffmania]

B-ref now has those numbers as

the last 14 days: .192/ .290/ .192 (.483)
the last 28 days: .294/ .351/ .373 (.723)

By comparison Youks is at

the last 14 days: .143/ .273/ .179 (.452)
the last 28 days: .206/ .308/ .294 (.602)

Are you sure Middlebrooks is the one who should be sent back down to AAA to get regular AB's?

The reality is that sending Youkilis down isn't an option. And since Middlebrooks has hardly been tearing it up lately the best option in my opinion is to give Youkilis a couple of weeks or so of regular playing time to see if he bounces back. If nothing else hopefully he'd increase his trade value and then you bring Middlebrooks back when he's gone. In the meantime I don't want to see Middlebrooks sitting on the bench doing nothing so I'd rather he go to AAA to keep playing regularly. Not to mention it provides the added benefit of letting Gonzalez go back to 1B on a permanent basis.

[OCD SS]

It's all small sample sizes, but Middlebrooks is still outplaying Youks. As I'm arguing in the other thread, at this point Youks probably isn't going to be able to significantly raise his trade stock over a couple weeks, and it's also just as likely that he'll continue to suck or get hurt and further reduce his value.

As the OFers come back Adrian Gonzalez has to go back to 1B, but I think it makes more sense to trade Youk than to send Middlebrooks to AAA.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

It's all small sample sizes, but Middlebrooks is still outplaying Youks. As I'm arguing in the other thread, at this point Youks probably isn't going to be able to significantly raise his trade stock over a couple weeks, and it's also just as likely that he'll continue to suck or get hurt and further reduce his value.

As the OFers come back Adrian Gonzalez has to go back to 1B, but I think it makes more sense to trade Youk than to send Middlebrooks to AAA.

I agree -- WMB should be playing over Youk. And sadly, that probably means getting a bag of balls for a past fan favorite and once all-star 1B. I figured once Youk was healthy he'd be a .825 OPS player and have some significant value to a contender. But while he seemed able to play for a couple weeks, that looks like it's about it for what his hip can take.

But as Youk is a sunk cost anyway, it's probably better for the team to get the extra balls so that Gonzalez can take some extended batting practice.

[glennhoffmania]

I agree with both of you. All I was saying is that as of right now Youkilis is still on the team and it makes no sense to have both him and Middlebrooks on the roster unless they make the decision that Youkilis is going to become a utility/bench player. Until that happens I'd rather they put him at 3B and hope he can improve and let Middlebrooks get regular ABs in AAA while using his roster spot for something more useful. I've never been a fan of musical lineups and I'm assuming that the affected players don't like it either.

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

B-ref now has those numbers as

the last 14 days: .192/ .290/ .192 (.483)
the last 28 days: .294/ .351/ .373 (.723)

By comparison Youks is at

the last 14 days: .143/ .273/ .179 (.452)
the last 28 days: .206/ .308/ .294 (.602)

Are you sure Middlebrooks is the one who should be sent back down to AAA to get regular AB's?

In that span, the Sox have seen 13 starting pitchers who's average ERA is 3.56. The team as a whole has averaged 3.9 runs per game which, extrapolated over the course of the full season, would be good enough for 25th in baseball. The team has hit .236 in the last two weeks. Etc etc etc.

If we're going to cite stats, than we might as well put them into perspective.

[trekfan55]

Some tweets today:

Cody Ross on toxic clubhouse: "comical...1 of best clubhouses I've ever been in." #RedSox #RedSoxTalk

Maullen

Ortiz: "This is not a &$@# bag organization."

Mcdonald

Beckett re toxic clubhouse: "completely fabricated...i think people want that to be the case." #RedSox #RedSoxTalk

Maullen